this is bbc news — the headlines... the committee investigating last year's attack on the us capitol building has just brought its latest hearing to a close. it was held in primetime for american television, and it examined former president trump's actions as the violence unfolded. it's the last public hearing of the summer. turkey's announced a deal which will allow ukraine to resume exports of grain through the black sea. it's expected to be signed on friday in istanbul by ukraine, russia, turkey and the un. ukraine is one of the world's leading grain producers, but a russian naval blockade has paralysed exports. security forces in sri lanka have raided the main anti—government protest camp in the capital colombo. hundreds of heavily armed troops in riot gear tore down tents outside the presidential

offices and pushed the protesters behind a barricade. on thursday, ranil wickremesinghe was sworn in as president. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. around the world, there are signs of deepening worker discontent. inflation is outstripping wages, global corporations stand accused of putting profits before people, while many governments see organised labour as a threat. why, then, is the union movement seemingly in retreat? have workers lost their faith in collective action? well, my guest is long time boss of the international trade union confederation, sharan burrow. do workers have problems that unions cannot fix?

sharan burrow in brussels. welcome to hardtalk. good evening. good to have you on the show. let's look at what is happening in the world right now. we have a spike in energy costs right around the world, we have rising inflation in many countries and a squeeze on the cost of living. how grim do you think the prospects for your members, for workers around the world are right now? well, i think you have to take note of workers. they're on strike all around the world, they can't live on the wages that they're

being paid, they know that this is a huge injustice when it's profits that are driving inflation. in fact, the union movement has a new term. it's called proflation, because it's a myth to say that wages are driving inflation. even the eu confirmed just this week that there is no feedback loop between wages and inflation and it's not likely that there will be, while real wages remain negative, so we're really headed towards stagflation, if not recession, because of the foolish policies of too many central banks raising interest rates. we are not in a period where we can discount the fact that if you have growth way below profits and inflation, then you are, in fact, facing grim economic circumstances. and unless we share prosperity, workers are the victims.

but aren't you trying to reinvent economics if you argue that workers pushing for massive pay rises right now is not going to be inflationary, all the evidence over many years suggests that once you get into that wage price spiral, it's very hard to get out of it. well, first of all, look at the wage claims. they're hardly massive demands, given the profits that, as i said, are really driving inflation. that's the key we see. with price rises in energy, with price gouging, with governments who are failing to regulate energy markets, failing to put the windfall tax on profits that we need, and to share that prosperity, then you're creating a low growth future against an inflationary spiral from prices and profits and workers and their families are the victims. there is no feedback loop... sharan... ..right now. i do get your point, but my response is simply that

if workers push for wage rises, and i'm going to talk to you about the uk to start with because the uk has an inflation rate of 9, knocking on io%, but there are key sets of workers, from the rail industry to the health service, doctors, barristers, all pushing for double digit rises in their wages or salaries. and ijust put it to you one more time that if they get what they want, that is above inflation rises, we are going to see that wage price spiral that has become so familiar to us, and they'll be harming their own interests in the long run, won't they? let's look at economicjustice and then economic theory. first of all, there is no evidence to show that wage rises will simply drive up inflation. the facts are clear. we are in a period of what we call proflation, where profits, prices and price gouging in profits are driving inflation.

workers in more than 40% of countries actually have wages that are lower than pre—covid levels, while you have 573 new billionaires and more and more people have been pushed into poverty. we know that the risk of inflation with the current ukraine crisis, the abhorrent invasion of ukraine by russia, is indeed risking notjust the price spirals we're seeing everywhere in energy and food, but in fact, it's risking famine in many parts of the world. now let's go back and have a look at economic theory and see where it has failed repeatedly. we haven't seen these circumstances for stagflation, indeed, potentially recession, because of the collapse of growth and, in fact, when you look at growth versus wages and inflation, wages are running at about less than a third

of inflation right now. so let's be realistic and say to central banks, "manage the economy for people, not for those continuing to make outrageous profits while other people risk starvation." you talk about the outrageous profits, but then you acknowledge that actually part of the inflationary spiral right now is caused by the russia invasion of ukraine, what that's done to food, energy prices, so that's hardly all about profiteering, is it? no, no, i absolutely dispute that, because the governments have failed to regulate the market, failed to do what they claim they don't like, which is indeed monopoly or oligopoly power. we have around four major companies right now controlling both the production and the distribution of food globally. and i can tell you the top company in this regard, cargill, actually has more than ten billionaires in its family alone.

so you've got to look at the wage gaps. you've got to look at the failure to distribute the profits, the incredible wealth that the world has generated, that workers have generated, and say, "how do we run fairer economies?" what i want you to address is whether workers have some sort of responsibility, too, particularly when it comes to productivity. isn't it incumbent on unions and workers to talk to corporates, to bosses, and ensure that working practices are improved, efficiency is improved, and that will improve global productivity? well, there's a whole range of assumptions there that are simply not true. go back to the 1980s and look forward and see how profits and productivity have indeed increased wealth, quadrupled it or more in those four decades, while labour income share has

hasgone like a giant roller—coaster downwards, repeatedly. why is it that governments have failed to regulate both labour markets for secure work, to promote collective bargaining, to ensure minimum living wages, wages on which people can live with dignity? they're the global standards that have failed to be enforced and, at the same time, stop corporates gathering monopoly power, price gouging at the expense of working people. this has to be turned around. we need to find an economic compass that is indeed married with a moral compass where people, and the planet, i might add, given the absolute example of the heatwave of today, are at the forefront of our work policy considerations, not an economy for the rich. so you are all for strikes, are you? i mean, again, just looking at the uk where i'm sitting in london, we have railway

workers threatening another round of strikes which are, of course, deeply damaging to the national economy. in other countries, workers are talking about a wave of strikes. your position representing international labour is... ..strikes are the best weapon we've got. is that right? strikes are a last resort everywhere. but if governments, if employers won't sit at the table, won't bargain with workers, won't share profits equitably in the interests of balanced economies, then workers have no choice. of course we'd support them. if they're desperate and they can't feed their families... you saw all the appreciation of our incredibly courageous workers who went to work to save our lives during the pandemic, from health care workers to service workers to transport and logistic workers, everybody clapped them, but no—one has paid them.

now, let's really be fair about this and say if unions and governments, if decent employers sit at the table and look to balance an economy, to manage it so that we are sharing prosperity, we are sharing that productivity that you falsely declared wasn't there, and yet all the statistics show that it has risen markedly, we can do better. we can do much better than relying on old economic orthodoxy that sets us up for more failure. yours is a powerful message, sharan burrow, but it doesn't seem like a message which is hitting home with workers across the world. why is it that union membership is declining and the membership of your own organisation, through the affiliates around the world, is also in steep decline. people are walking away from trade unions. they don't believe that you can deliver for them. that's not actually true, can i say? if you look at your own country, the uk is growing,

the tuc is growing. if you look at the fact that the world's workers... in a 25—year trend, union membership in the uk is significantly down. yeah... it's down below 10% in france and in the united states. and if you look at the overall international picture, in the oecd nations as a whole, union membership has declined significantly in the last 20 years. well, maybe you should answer the question, because i can tell you if you want to take a time series, fine, but we've also had, in that time series, massive restructuring of the economy, some incredibly unfair transitions. the manufacturing sector, always very strongly unionised, has been decimated by a global model of economy that has not worked for working people, that has damaged the climate. what i'm telling you is in the last three years, you will see membership rising...

well... ..in key countries. what i'm telling you is that... ..in the uk, in europe... you know... ..but also... canifinish? you can look at the figures and you can try to be optimistic about them, i'm just asking you to face reality. here's one extraordinary statistic... your reality or my reality? well, here's a reality you're going to have to wrestle with in the future, because it's about the future. it's about young people. in 2021, in the united kingdom, only 4.3% of workers, between 16 and 2a, were members of a trade union. the next generation of workers. and how many of those young people are in secure jobs? how many of them have to depend on internet—mediated jobs, which are informal work, where the employer takes no responsibility and governments don't regulate? how many are on short—term contracts in casualised service areas? when we do justice

with the labour market, for young people, for women, for people of colour, then i can tell you unions are the only ones advocating for the laws that are inclusive of all. so, yes, if you want to look at young people and their inclusion in unions, fine, but let's look at what we've dealt to those unions as governments and countries, to those workers who are in insecure work. the damage to young people's security is a scandal, a global scandal. and again... yeah, hang on... ..a problem we could address. let me ask you about another aspect of what you do. you're the confederation of international trade unions. it's not yourjob just to look after what's happening in western europe. of course you sit in brussels, but your perspective is global. it must worry you that one of your vice presidents in the international tuc, sanjeeva reddy from india,

has basically, for years, been saying that your own organisation caters really only for western workers. he says you're more concerned about the problems of developed nations, you don't care about the interests of asia and africa and poorer countries and you personally, he says, although you've been in the job that you've got for a dozen years or so, you've never worked closely with ground level industrial workers. you come from a teaching background in australia, hardly have any experience, he says, with, for example, unorganised agricultural workers. are you out of touch? i would actually say to you, if sanjeeva reddy was here right now, he and i would agree 100% that until governments regulate the labour market, so that 60% of our... ..of our workforce is not in informal work now, notjust in developing countries, but in developed countries, until we actually

have a labour market that is inclusive. so tell me who's fought for universal social protection? who's fought for minimum living wages? collective bargaining for all workers? i can tell you right now, this morning, we've had discussions about how you drive minimum living incomes and social protection for informal workers. now, sanjeeva is absolutely right about an economy where you have 93% of the workforce... imagine a middle—income economy, india, 93% of the workforce in informal work. that is a scandal of incredible proportions. why have governments failed to regulate the labour market? why is the global corporate power wanting to keep workers without rights? again, we come back to the reality of profits before people.

but sanjeeva would probably ask you a very simple question. "why are you sitting there in a comfortable office in brussels? why isn't the international tuc based in delhi or lagos or sao paulo? why... 7" why can't you send that kind of symbolic message to workers around the world that you actually are focused on their needs? well, maybe we ought to have a look at the itc because we do have an office in delhi, we do have an office in sao paulo and indeed in uruguay. we do have an office in togo, one of the poorest countries in africa. yeah, but... so we are not sitting in brussels, my friend. you might want to be provocative, but i can tell you our organisers are out in the field, we have regional secretaries, we have, in fact, an inclusive labour movement. my president is a nigerian man, one of the best union men. he's driven up minimum wages, he fights for

social protection. he's now on the front lines of climate and just transition, like many of our leaders. i know, but, sharan...? sharan burrow... find me an employer who's out there arguing that his workers would not be subject to poverty wages and i'll tell you how that would have come about through union dialogue. i don't want to be provocative, but i do want to be rigorous. and one way in which i want to be rigorous is to ask you about a particular example of a stand you took and which you then modified. you made a very strong stand suggesting that qatar's record on worker rights back in the early 2010s, 2011, 2012, was so poor that they didn't deserve to have the football world cup. by 2017, you'd completely changed your mind. you hailed their reforms in their indentured worker system.

you said — and i'm quoting directly — "i stand with qatar," and yet, in the years since then, we've still seen hundreds, hundreds of construction workers die in the process of building those stadia for the forthcoming world cup. why did you change your position so completely? because we did what the union movement does. we fought qatar to a standstill. we took them the highest level of complaint to the ilo, and then when they agreed, we negotiated. the laws have changed. that kafala system or indentured worker system you just described is dead. workers are free. i'll tell you what's dead — there's still hundreds and hundreds of workers who... excuse me. do you want to know the truth or not? there are laws in qatar now that guarantee migrant workers justice. there are labour courts in qatar. they were not there.

there are not hundreds of workers dying in qatar now... have you read...? ..because i can tell you, you don't want to know. do you want to know the work the union movement does or not? this is something the movement is very proud of. yes, there are still issues of implementation, for sure. but then look in the uk, you've found pockets of slavery in the uk, you have an anti—slavery law. we've changed the laws in qatar. we'll continue to fight for implementationjust as we will everywhere. but rather than just complaining, we've actually set out to campaign to have the dialogue with a country. we're now demanding change in the uae because it still hides behind laws that people don't have access. show me a movement, any movement that actually does that work on behalf of migrant workers, notjust complains about it. that's good.

we have many allies who raise exploitation, but actually sit at the table and make sure the laws and the justice system is in place. i'm very proud of the union movement around qatar. are you proud of the union movements in australia and south africa, who are staunchly defending the coal industry in both of those countries? because it seems to me you've got a problem. you deliver messages at davos and all those other summits you go to, saying workers of the world are committed to a green future, and then some of your key members in your own home country, australia, and in countries like south africa, where the coal industry is a huge employer, a massive economic factor, they actually defend the right to establish new coal mines. well, that's not true either. you know, yes, you have people who are frightened for their jobs, but you understand that better than anybody! you've seen the devastation of unjust transitions in the uk.

but if you have a look at the south african labour movement, cosatu, along with ourselves and indeed the european union, the us government, the european regional development bank, we raised the money, indeed the seed money, 8.5 billion just last year, to allow south africa to transition its energy source to renewable energy. there's a joint dialogue table. this is serious business. we have a new labour government in australia... what about the australian mining and energy union, which supported the massive, controversial adani mine project back in 2019, saying it was vital for the jobs of australian workers. were you with them on that? they had no offer of a just transition. if you have workers who are frightened because nobody takes responsibility for theirfamilies, their children, for the jobs that they are worried about not having, of course

they'll fight. but why have we spent more than a decade fighting forjust transition, setting up just transition measures? now, you can be anti—union, you can take some understandable examples and ramp them up as the whole, but let me tell you, no—one — no—one — has fought more than the union movement, led internationally and nationally, forjust transition, to transition to a net zero economy with the measures that protect and growjobs, so, again... a final thought, sharan — we're almost out of time. ..you can be anti—union, fine... ah, well... ..we�*re used to it, but let's look at who has some prescriptions for making sure our communities don't die, that there arejobs, good jobs for working... a...quick final thought, sharan. .. ..and that we don't repeat the injustice of the past. a quick final thought. this conversation has talked

about whether the union movement has a future. lots of things have changed and you've acknowledged it, and young people particularly are at the forefront of change in the labour market. we see much more now atomisation of the workforce, partly post—covid working from home, partly different rules of engagement between workers and their employers. do you think collective worker action through trade unions has a future? i absolutely do. and look at the starbucks workers in the us, more than 200 us elections, in a system that is stacked against workers and their unions. look at the workers in deliveroo, in uber, in all those so—called gig—economy areas where the employer, allowed by the government, simply denied an employment relationship. and they're winning the battles in court. look at the young people standing up for climate and transition, wanting the jobs of the future. i'm very confident that the union movement has

a very healthy future and, to be honest, if we weren't on the front lines... ..of fighting for workers, for theirjobs, for rights, for decent work, but if we weren't also fighting for our democracies, for climate action and just transition, who would be? who would be? sharan burrow, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk but we've run out of time. thank you very much indeed. thank you. hello. we're certainly ending this working week on a much cooler note than we started it on, temperatures have been

gradually dropping over recent days after the heatwave earlier in the week. friday is going to be a cooler day than we've seen recently. some thunderstorms possible for some areas, but not everywhere is going to be seeing outbreaks of rain. now we start friday morning mild still in the south, 17 degrees or so. further north typically 11 or 12. through the day, then, some showery rain developing — particularly across central parts of england and wales — some of that showery rain drifting into parts of northern england and southern scotland. the odd rumble of thunder almost anywhere, but most likely probably for the south—west of england into wales, as well. northern ireland having a largely dry day with some sunshine, and sunshine, too, for the far north of scotland up towards shetland in particular. temperatures ranging between about 15 to 23 degrees for most of us, a bit of a cooler breeze for the northern isles, eastern scotland and north—east england. 0vernight friday, then, we've still got some of this showery rain around, drifting its way northwards and eastwards, but the next area of low pressure is going to spread some rain towards northern ireland by the early hours of saturday morning. so temperatures a little bit cooler than recent nights

by first thing saturday — we're looking at the mid—teens for most of us, a little bit cooler than that across parts of scotland. during the weekend, as this area of low pressure approaches from the west, it's going to mean the winds pick up, there'll be some wet weather working in, but ahead of that it's going to help draw in this southerly flow of air. so again some fairly warm airspreading in from continental europe, heading up towards eastern parts of england in particular — that's where we'll see some of the highest temperatures through saturday into sunday. so this is how saturday shapes up, then. rain initially for northern ireland, then spreading into some western parts of scotland and england, as well. central and eastern england probably staying dry with sunny spells all day, and temperatures a little bit warmer on saturday compared to what we'll see on friday. so, highs, the mid to high 20s. we've lost that cool breeze from the likes of newcastle, for instance. high teens or low 20s for scotland and for northern ireland. by the time we get to sunday, low pressure spreads further east, so quite a few heavy showers on sunday — could be heavy and thundery towards the north—west. the breeze picking up, too, but again the south—east remaining dry for a good part of the day, where we could really do with

some rainfall around. and it's going to feel warm in the south—east with temperatures as high as around 30 degrees — typically the low 20s towards the north—west. bye for now.

this is bbc news. i'm victoria fritz with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. "he didn't fail to act, he chose not to act" — donald trump stands accused in the latest hearing in to last year's attack on the us capitol. donald trump made a purposeful choice to violate his oath of office. to ignore the ongoing violence against law enforcement, to threaten our constitutional order. not only was the former president accused of sitting idly by while the violence raged, witnesses say his actions made things worse. hundreds of police in riot gear begin to dismantle anti—government protest camps in the sri lankan capital colombo.

and britain's nhs is stepping up its vaccination programme