this is bbc news. the headlines: pope francis has begun a six—day visit to canada, where he's expected to repeat a formal apology to indigenous survivors of abuse inflicted at roman catholic—run boarding schools. pope francis has described the visit as a "trip of penance". firefighters in california are warning that hot weather is hampering their efforts to contain a huge wildfire before it reaches yosemite national park. the blaze has already forced more than 6,000 people from their homes since it began on friday. russia's foreign minister, sergei lavrov, has dismissed claims that his country has caused the global food crisis. moscow is facing widespread criticism for firing missiles at the ukrainian port of 0desa on saturday,

jeopardising a deal to allow grain to leave the city. now on bbc news, dateline london with shaun ley. hello and welcome to dateline. bringing together leading british commentators with foreign correspondent. this week, british conservative mps completed their colleague cull in the hunt for that new leader and the country's next prime minister, and they also called

the economic consensus with which governments of left and right have operated for the last 20 years. and as the world waits for vladimir putin to allow safe passage of grain, why he himself was kept waiting. with me, cricket commentator ashis ray, and michael goldfarb, foreign correspondent for pbs radio in the united states, and podcast host, and steve richardson who began his career as a westminster correspondent as margaret thatcher was ending hers — coincidental. his blog is called rock & roll politics, his most recent book about the talented politicians who failed to make it to number10. steve, we will leave the the question unanswered of which of the current two might be that person in any future addition of the book. what do you make of the choice that tory mps have presented party members with between liz truss and rishi sunak? i think it is extraordinary because in a very erratic way, with both theresa may and borisjohnson, you could see attempts, chaotic

injohnson�*s case, distracted in may's case with the brexit, attempt to move on from thatcherism. you know, theresa may talked about the good that government can do and that the state can do. borisjohnson occasionally put the case for high public spending. now you have got a battle with two people claiming the thatcherite mantle in very different ways. so, it is a battle on the right of the tory party. the focus is on tax cuts — when is the debate, but not should there be them. there is no focus on the role of the state as demands on the state are growing. and, so, it is a return to that sort of 1980s thatcherism that very erratically the tory party have been trying to move away from. thatcherism is incidentally, absolutely a product of its time, the late �*70s and early �*80s — not the situation that we are in it now, but she cast a spell over its membership

and these two candidates, and it is a very narrow contest in that respect. ashis, you were reporting from london when margaret thatcher was prime minister. as steve rightly says, the circumstances are different, but the debate is very much, it seems, over not just taxation and the fact we have got the largest tax burden since the early 1950s under rishi sunak�*s chancellorship, so that is an obvious ground for liz truss to attack him on, but she also seems to be attacking what she calls the consensus of economic policy which has lasted for 20 years. that is arguably quite a radical position to adopt. yes, because britain had moved somewhat towards the centre in terms of economic policy, and therefore that is something that she is trying to yank out, it would appear, or at least that might be her attempt. whether that is the sensible

thing to do, i don't know, for the simple reason that people seem to think that rishi sunak's approach which is of trying to reduce the state debt before lowering taxes seems... he said on friday that any tax rises would probably not be before at least the end of next year. yes, except that he won't give tax cuts straight away because he needs to recover the money that has been spent, and therefore the government debt has grown exponentially. that said, i think people, although they think that that maybe the more responsible, more sensible thing to do, but clearly, the populace line is, "cut taxes now," and that seems to be playing out, as of now, reasonably well, with the membership, rank and file of the conservative party. i want to push back- about this margaret thatcher was the past thing. we are still playing out the l drama of her defenestration. i think that if you look.

at what brexit is, brexit is a direct product of — i was a journalist here| in the late 80s and early 90s as well — and brexit was — i europe was — the issue that split the conservative party| apart, and the anti—europeans, and she was their figurehead —| have never forgiven her. in fact, ukip was formed i by conservative politicians who thought that john major not being a good thatcherite. - we still saw this obeisance. i tweeted last week, . "wouldn't it be simpler "to have a seance?" we will get all the - conservative party around, summon the spirit of - margaret thatcher, you can have a nice discussion, but can we actually bel legislating _ for the 21st century? i am not sure they really - are there, and you look at... you're right, they're not, and she still casts a spell,

and the conservative party changed with her leadership. it became much more ideological. so, you are absolutely right, but you do, every now and again, see, as i say, very erratic attempt to move on and address of the demands of now rather than the demands of �*79... but, but... she is there absolutely at the heart of this contest. but i think other things have changed as well. the conservative press has i become much more hard—line and much less interested, frankly, injournalism, - and now it is all opinionl all the time because just talking about - rishi sunak, right? i can remember many a time where the daily telegraph i and the daily mail would be talking about a chancellor l like rishi sunak — _ it would have been kevin clarke — you know, putting up taxes now so we could have a big l tax—cutting budget six months before the next general- election. the conservatives would win, and they could just roll - over their mandate. that is sort of what rishi - sunak is proposing, isn't he?

he is... that is good politics, isn't it? hold on, though. it is a topsy—turvy contest. he is the thatcherite. she used to go around saying, "you have got "to balance the books. "my father owned his shop in grantham and never spent "more than he earned," and so on, and that is basically what he is saying. but he is being attacked by those who regard themselves as the committed thatcherites — jacob rees mogg and people like that. as a socialist, even though he is actually being being the balance—the—books, don't put up taxes until you can pay forthem, now, he might be wrong about all of these things, but it is the thatcherite view. she, liz truss, is more stuck in that sort of reaganite view that you borrow to cut taxes and debt deficit really doesn't matter that much. let it rip and we can pay back over many decades. so, that is where they are, but that is not really how the party season,

which is curious. rishi sunak definitely declared himself to be a thatcherite economist, if you like, whereas, officially, liz truss has not, but where i think liz truss has played the popular line is by saying, "i am going to cut taxes now." the other thing of course is about her ideological inconsistency over a long period of time. she moved from the lib dems to the liberal wing, if you like... socially liberal. correct. of the conservative party. this is when dave cameron was leader... now, her latest position seems to be rather to the right. so, she has moved quite a lot, and therefore appears to be a little flaky in her position. isn't this sort of a bit like, though, what happens in primaries in the us? you kind of — you tack to the activists, you went

with the activists, and then you slowly move towards a slightly broader position which allows you to bring in more voters. yeah, except that you don'tl have to bring in more voters in this particular context. it is one of the smalljoys - of living in a one—party state. i mean, if you can't get it right the first time — - david cameron or then theresa may, or thenl borisjohnson — i mean, - cameron and johnson are big enough personalities— for the job, and theresa may... we are not really a one—party state, though, are we? i know, i know. he's joking. it just feels like it. you know — the bbc — i don't know... - this is the third conservative prime minister to be selected alone by the party membership, and the rest of the electorate is excluded at this juncture. just as it was when tony blair was replaced by gordon brown. i mean, it is the nature of our political system... crosstalk. in a quite compressed a space.

i mean, we learned, right, wasn't the story that blair and brown had a pact, and maybe after the third electoral victory blair regretted having made that pact, but he honoured it. but this is something entirely different. i have to say, shaun, it feels frankly wrong that you can, in seven years, so compress and get — lose control of your own party — much less run a country. it is very interesting, shaun, that you mentioned the last time this happened under a labour government, gordon brown almost insisted there were no other candidates, and it looked very odd. it wasjust him. but you can see now why he did it. it's really dangerous when, for a governing party, when the door is opened on what happens behind the scenes, and we have had moments of, in public tv debates, where rishi sunak and liz truss are arguing over fundamental tax policy in a way that breaks the spell about cabinet unity, and it is very hard once

the spell is broken. to put the genie back in the bottle. there will be many consequences arising. in terms of stability, - it is revolving—door prime ministers. this is not really the history of the conservative party, l and what he referred to quite | rightly is that gordon brown's turn came after a decade. so, it was not - really immediate. it wasn't something which - happened in quick succession. let's talk a bit about what these two may or may not mean for the rest of the world in so far as britain matters in the rest of the world. just on this question of liz truss's position on the economics, there will be a lot of places around the world — and i suspect the united states would be one of them — where her critique of the way the global economy has operated over the last 20 years will resonate, nor least over the impact of globalisation. a lot of people have been failed by the process of globalisation.

could she actually be quite a useful figure internationally in that regard? at the moment in the us, i idon't think anyone is paying attention to that. sure. one of the things — - and i know we will come over to this later in the programme — is at the pivot towards china j and wondering how to play china and anticipate the next 20—30 i years really does preoccupy- everybody in washington so far as i can tell. plus, there is our own internal problems. - i mean, this past week, - the january 6 committee has wrapped up its summer hearings. people are just having to deal with the fact that the us - is both looking out - towards china, but internally our politics are such a mess. the society is such a mess. i honestly don't think that what any british prime - minister, even if borisjohnson says, "hold america close"... i which he does. ..."hasta la vista, baby." that message was out there, and i think it is a reminder. that maybe he was saying no

matter what is happening - domestically in america don't lose sight of it. i i don't think whoever- emerges from this is going to make a difference. on that at least, just on the china question, liz truss has talked the talk, hasn't she? i mean, she has said, for example, that the british will be there if china invades taiwan. the british will be there supporting taiwan. she has this compulsive streak, which is quite dangerous. if you remember at the beginning when russia — the beginning of the russian invasion of ukraine, she gave an interview where she said, "if ordinary people want to go out there and fight, that is fine," as far as she is concerned. she had to be immediately disowned by the defence secretary, within minutes, and likewise the alarming prospect that, you know, britain could get involved in some sort of a military operation against china. i mean, this is kind of... now, you know, she was interviewed the other day about russia, and whether she would consider some sort of deeper military operation against russia, and she said no without hesitation —

continue with the current policy. but she is impulsive, and that is potentially quite dangerous in the current unstable situation. we know about rishi sunak's family connections to india, and obviously for the diaspora he is an interesting figure, but what could he mean? what might he mean to the rest of the world? the obvious place is our nearest neighbour to europe. i mean, is he likely to take a more, perhaps a more collaborative approach, in your opinion? let me to say that liz truss's record as a minister has been quite unremarkable, but that said, as far as india is concerned, i think there is great excitement about this leadership contest. it is all over media in india. it is on a television. it is on newspapers. it is playing out in a very big way. of course, people are a little too exuberant, and they did not

quite understand the two—stage process, and therefore, rishi sunak taking the lead with the balloting by mps... they assumed that was it — all over. yes. it created enormous excitement. but then suddenly reality has dawned, and i saw a piece by one of the wire services. by the way, what i have been writing from here has been a minority view because i have been trying to explain this for the last two weeks that this is a two—stage process, but nobody listens, who cares? and now i found that one of the wire services has said that the prospect does not look very good when it comes to the membership stage of the balloting. so, that i think has created a bit of a pause, but there is still a bit of excitement, residual excitement. it has not gone away. one thing we should all be getting excited about, arguably, is this deal

that was agreed finally on friday between — not directly between ukraine and russia — but between ukraine and turkey and russia and turkey and the un to at least allow grain exports to happen again. i mean, this is hugely significant if it happens. what do you make of it? this was in the works for quite a while, and i think— that the process, - as we will learn more about because they will be i a lot of diplomatic reporting, is that it shows how _ complicated and fragmented that part of the world, this - central asia, the caspian sea, the caspian world i is russia and iran. russia and iran have been. helping to basically destroy syria in support of basher - al—assad for more than a decade now, and turkey, which borders syria and borders iran, - is almost like our- representative, and it is incredibly complicated.

this deal was confirmed i when vladimir putin went to tehran last week. fine. what else was discussed? well, can turkey have another incursion into northern syria . to protect its interests - in that part of the country, which is at the hands - of the kurds, and maybe throw some bombs into iraqi kurdistan? _ eight, nine people were killed in zakho at a resort this week| when the turks bombed it. what leveraged does i the united states have in any of this? none because geography is destinx _ these are neighbours, i and they work together and they can be — they can bel utilised to come up with a deal like this, brokered - with the un and erdogan. we talked last week on this program aboutjoe biden�*s visit to the middle east and whether or not it would yield anything, the nervousness in washington

about relations between iran — the influence of iran in the region, rather — and why that would be a reason for, perhaps, holding his nose and doing his fist with mohammed bin salman, the crown prince there, notwithstanding what he'd said before about him and about saudi arabia, and that is the realpolitik. again, turkey, presumably, i mean, turkey is a part of nato, so arguably it is a part of the military operation in defence of ukraine against russia. does that make washington nervous? turkey... who doesn't want to say... you have to be careful how you speak about erdogan l but he is kind of— indispensable, and he is also infuriating — in washington to london and the rest of- the nato partnership, and this has been the case — look, if you go back to 2003| when the us wanted to . invade iraq, two prongs — one from the north and one -

from the south through turkey, and everyone said, . "no, you can't do it." nato, all of those — "you can't do it". i it has been like this now for almost 20 years, - but he is kind of— indispensable, and the thing is — i will come back to... i will finish in a second - and just come back to that point i was making earlier about what americans - are thinking about anyway. yes, washington was full of, "well, what's he going..." i he's going to fist bump mbs, and what about the murder . ofjamaal khashoggi? well, you know something, it was called humanitarian i interventionism for a reason because in the 15 years - when america was the sole i superpower, you could think about humanitarian human rights stuff. it is not the world we live in now. i this leveraging of erdogan�*s influence is interesting. we saw it over the migrant deal to take pressure off europe with the number of migrants coming to turkey and taking action against that, but it extracted a price. presumably, it will extract

a political price from this deal? presumably. i think what is most interesting, i mean, while we were waiting to come on — i don't know if you heard it, shaun — there was an interview where paula garren was interviewing one of the agents of the deal, and i think it was somebody from nato, and she was making the point — look, russia benefits considerably for this deal. it was the un secretary general. that's who it was, sorry. no, no, that's fine. he said, "we need the grain," basically. the world needs the grain or else there will be appalling famine. fifth—largest exporter of grain. exactly. so, you can see how this leverage plays out in lots of different ways as this — what seems to be, anyway, for now — the war of attrition in ukraine. and i wonder whether it will extend at some point to energy. how long can the german economy survive, even in this current sort ofjuncture of not knowing where its energy supplies are going to come from?

and i think that is interesting that from this sort of hard line everyone was taking in the beginning, including turkey, it is now, "hold on, we need the grain." i think that kind of signals a kind of shift, really. i see this as very good news on paper. it remains to be seen whether it is good news in practice, and that said, i think the role of the united nations also should not be underestimated in brokering this deal. obviously, turkey, which has a sort of blow hot, blue—collar relationship with russia, has played a constructive role. at the end of it, the two guarantors, if you like, are the united nations are turkey because there is no direct deal, no direct agreement between russia and ukraine. so, you have got turkey and the united nations... it is not in any way a preparation for a peace deal, is it?

well, this is only a small beginning and i think one has to go a long way before anything concrete can happen, but at the end of the day, it means that the russian blockade of ukrainian ports will be suspended as far as grain exports are concerned, but then the boats will be monitored by turkey to ensure thatjust food and nothing else is coming out... no weapons. and no weapons are going in. yep. and that seems to be the deal for the moment. as i said, the proof of the pudding would be in the actual practice of the deal. michael, do you think in part this may have come about because some of those countries that had not objected to russia's actions in ukraine and maintained friendly relations with russia was starting to be hurt by the grain shortage? you think in some ways russia may have come under some pressure?

you are talking about places like egypt where the price i of bread is exponentially higher by the day. - i don't know. i think this is - _ it is an interesting question. i think that there is a kind - of return to playing both sides in the middle east and north africa, and going down - into sub—saharan africa. the kind of thing that we saw during the cold war, - except there is nobody - who is one client or another. it is not quite - as organised yet. so, you can't be on russia's i team or be on america's team. clearly, the savviest thing is to play both sides against each other. that is what people are doing, and there is a third player- to come back to china, i which has for the last few years with its belt—and—road initiative, influencing africa, i providing infrastructure loans, i which then chinese companies go out and they build, and all of this fluidity is there. -

i think that i am going to give mr guterres, the head - of the un, some credit for- being a genuine humanitarian... because it is often a lousy job, being an attorney—general, isn't it? it is a thanklessjob, - and the un has been absent in terms of the crisis dealing in the war between russia . and ukraine, but this is a win if it holds because it does- allow all of this foodstuff — and it is notjust wheat — l i mean, the soy — the sunflower oil. i mean, i have been in ukraine. it is sunflowers forever, - and the sunflower, all of this is necessary for cooking in places like africa. - so, yeah, but again, - the proof is in the pudding because the awkwardness of, "yes, it has to be guided out| past the mines," that ukraine has laid to protect itself - from a russian invasion of its southern ports, . and then it has to be escorted every step of the way. - there is the potential

for flashpoints... - mistakes, accidents, whatever they may be. just last point, ashis, i asked the question we are in danger of not answering. why did erdogan keep putin waiting for almost a minute? in these heavily choreographed public events, it is quite humiliating. yes. i think this is a part of the blow—hot, blow—cold relationship, and i think he also realises that putin needs this meeting. he needs to be seen in this international arena with the iranian leader and so on. so, yes, i know he is a very shrewd player. i am not very sure whether he is great for the world, but he is very much there. ashis ray, steve richards, michael goldfarb, as you all are, thank you very much. thank you for your company. more from a dateline same time next week. have a good weekend. bye bye.

hello. monday will be a showery and quite blustery day. we will see spell of rain moving south across scotland which in the afternoon will reach into northern england. behind it in northern scotland it will brighten up later but it'll be quite windy here, in fact, gusts of 50 miles an hour orso in the northern isles. elsewhere there'll be a scattering of showers to be had from what will be a good deal of cloud. there will also be a tendency for things to brighten up later in the day. feeling cooler, fresher, much cooler in eastern scotland, up to 10 degrees compared with sunday. still mid 20s towards the south—east, but that's a lower temperature than we had on sunday. a lot of the showers will fade away overnight and into tuesday morning. the nights are starting to turn cooler as well, a bit cooler than this on tuesday night. during tuesday, there's a ridge

of high pressure starting to edge in from the west. there'll still be some showers around, not as many on tuesday. but a scattering for example into scotland, northern ireland parts of northern and eastern england for example. there'll also be some sunny spells here or there. at this stage we're looking at temperatures at or even below average for the time of year.

this is bbc news — welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm david eades. our top stories a pilgrimage of penance — pope francis is in canada where he's set to apologise for the abuse suffered by indigenous children at catholic—boarding schools. as firefighters in california struggle to contain the latest huge wildfire, the us special envoy for climate warns that the world is not moving fast enough to tackle the climate crisis. it is less than ideal not to have the entire congress full—throatily adopting some of the measures the need to be taken. russia admits it attacked the port of odessa — a day after an agreement to resume grain exports — but its foreign minister denies they are to blame for causing a world food crisis