hello and welcome to the programme which brings together leading british journalists with foreign correspondents based in the uk who write, blog, podcast and broadcast from the dateline london. ballot papers will be sent out in the coming week to the 160 thousand or so people who will, in effect, choose the next british prime minister. the candidate debates have not been without incident — the host of one brought it to an abrupt end by fainting.

has it sent our panel to sleep? has europe yet woken up to the prospect of energy rationing this winter? and are the democrats slumbering whilst donald trump is thundering? here in the studio are jef mcallister, an american lawyer, who was london bureau chief for time magazine. the french author and journalist, agnes poirier and adam raphael, who has been commentating on british politics since the 1970s. thank you very much for being with us. adam, let's start with the british conservative leadership contest. in effect the beauty contest. in effect the beauty contest for britain's next prime minister. it's been 101, blue on blue in some of the attacks. how revealing or interesting has it been? ~ ~h revealing or interesting has it been? ~ . , , revealing or interesting has it been? ~ , been? well it has rightly pointed out this only _ been? well it has rightly pointed out this only hundred _ been? well it has rightly pointed out this only hundred and - been? well it has rightly pointed i out this only hundred and 60,000 been? well it has rightly pointed - out this only hundred and 60,000 in the electorate, with think anyway, nobody knows what the conservative membership is filled up 97% are white, half live in london or the south—east, half are over 65, i know

most of the map but there you go. it justis most of the map but there you go. it just is not a representative election. there are 14 million conservative votes in the last election. you have this tiny number who actually decide not only who the party leader should be, who the prime minister should be. so it's all. and the other odd thing about it, is the election is also over before it is begun. you've got liz truss, she so far ahead of rishi sunak that unless there is some incredible stumble along the way, which is possible but unlikely, she's going to have an even bigger majority than borisjohnson had over hunt at the last election, jeremy hunt. these dbas i find rather demeaning because they are just really contest for bidding up for votes. neitherare really contest for bidding up for votes. neither are discussing policies surgery say, neither

actually acknowledging the seriousness of the situation in the country finds itself in. they are just bidding for this 160,000 votes. rishi sunak in particular is very much on the defensive, he knows he's far, far behind. so unless there is some amazing stryker revelation about liz truss and i'm not about to reveal, this is over. that is happened before with mrs mae before, with her leadership election. these things tend to get decided very early and indeed the conservative membership to the credit, they vote early. membership to the credit, they vote earl . , ., membership to the credit, they vote earl. , ., ., , ., early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke- _ early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke. you _ early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke. you know- early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke. you know there - early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke. you know there is l early. yes, vote early vote off in | the old joke. you know there is a tendency candidates to pitch to the activist —based and therefore we had activist —based and therefore we had a lot of the old tune, taxation, margaret thatcher, immigration, not terribly surprising do you feel any sense of confidence that these candidates whoever wins will

actually realise the way you win votes in the party may not be the way you secure your partnership when you are facing the public in almost certain to face an election at most into your partnership when you are facing the public in almost certain to face an election at most in two years to face an election at most in two ears on? , , ., to face an election at most in two earson? ,,., , to face an election at most in two years on?— years on? this is of course the hypothesis of _ years on? this is of course the hypothesis of the centrist - years on? this is of course the | hypothesis of the centrist voter years on? this is of course the - hypothesis of the centrist voter and the need _ hypothesis of the centrist voter and the need to appoint two appealed to the need to appoint two appealed to the centre, which is the traditional way that— the centre, which is the traditional way that parties you get in and retain— way that parties you get in and retain power. it's been a little jumbled — retain power. it's been a little jumbled up both in the us and in the uk in_ jumbled up both in the us and in the uk inthe_ jumbled up both in the us and in the uk in the last years. the republicans in the us going very much _ republicans in the us going very much for— republicans in the us going very much for the base, polarisation, don't _ much for the base, polarisation, don't really— much for the base, polarisation, don't really try to make a pitch for the centre — don't really try to make a pitch for the centre. there is a whiff of that in our— the centre. there is a whiff of that in ourjohnson estate in power, going _ in ourjohnson estate in power, going hard _ in ourjohnson estate in power, going hard right on brexit, insisting _ going hard right on brexit, insisting how his mps have fealty to him if— insisting how his mps have fealty to him if they— insisting how his mps have fealty to him if they didn't vote for him they -ot him if they didn't vote for him they got kicked — him if they didn't vote for him they got kicked out and they do things against _ got kicked out and they do things against the constitution. and he didnt— against the constitution. and he didn't really seem to pay much of a political— didn't really seem to pay much of a political price because labour is so disorganised underjeremy corbyn. disorganised under jeremy corbyn. now

disorganised underjeremy corbyn. now with _ disorganised underjeremy corbyn. now with the opposition that does seem _ now with the opposition that does seem to _ now with the opposition that does seem to have a pulse, although it doesn't _ seem to have a pulse, although it doesn't have that kind of inevitability that somehow tony blair had — inevitability that somehow tony blair had 15 years ago of a young man_ blair had 15 years ago of a young man who — blair had 15 years ago of a young man who knew what he was doing and have the _ man who knew what he was doing and have the sole system going with them, _ have the sole system going with them, it— have the sole system going with them, it doesn't feel like it's quite — them, it doesn't feel like it's quite caught on the air. but they better— quite caught on the air. but they better play for the centre because the labour party is 13 points ahead in the _ the labour party is 13 points ahead in the polls— the labour party is 13 points ahead in the polls now. even though the ones _ in the polls now. even though the ones who— in the polls now. even though the ones who brought them, the conservatives in the so used to doing _ conservatives in the so used to doing that _ conservatives in the so used to doing that now they may not know how to appeal _ doing that now they may not know how to appeal to _ doing that now they may not know how to appeal to the centre very easily, there _ to appeal to the centre very easily, there can have to do it if they're going _ there can have to do it if they're going to — there can have to do it if they're going to win. there can have to do it if they're going to win-— there can have to do it if they're going to win. yes. just across the channel we _ going to win. yes. just across the channel we see _ going to win. yes. just across the channel we see a _ going to win. yes. just across the channel we see a president - channel we see a president beleaguered because he lost his parliamentary majority. whoever becomes prime minister of britain has the security of the parliamentary majority, that might be deceptive in terms of their power and the ability to get things done. it's difficult to compare the two countries — it's difficult to compare the two countries because _ it's difficult to compare the two countries because we _ it's difficult to compare the two countries because we have - it's difficult to compare the two countries because we have a i countries because we have a presidential— countries because we have a presidential system, - countries because we have a presidential system, you -

countries because we have a i presidential system, you have countries because we have a . presidential system, you have a parliamentary— presidential system, you have a parliamentary want. _ presidential system, you have a parliamentary want. to - presidential system, you have a parliamentary want. to think i presidential system, you have a. parliamentary want. to think that 160.000 — parliamentary want. to think that 160.000 or— parliamentary want. to think that 160.000 or so _ parliamentary want. to think that 160,000 or so people _ parliamentary want. to think that 160,000 or so people are - parliamentary want. to think that i 160,000 or so people are choosing the next _ 160,000 or so people are choosing the next prime _ 160,000 or so people are choosing the next prime minister, _ 160,000 or so people are choosing the next prime minister, it's- the next prime minister, it's interesting _ the next prime minister, it's interesting we _ the next prime minister, it's interesting we are _ the next prime minister, it's interesting we are talking i the next prime minister, it's. interesting we are talking about primaries— interesting we are talking about primaries because _ interesting we are talking about primaries because this - interesting we are talking about primaries because this is- interesting we are talking about - primaries because this is something the french— primaries because this is something the french political— primaries because this is something the french political parties- primaries because this is something the french political parties did - the french political parties did first internally— the french political parties did first internally but _ the french political parties did first internally but then - the french political parties did first internally but then they . first internally but then they opened _ first internally but then they opened it _ first internally but then they opened it in— first internally but then they opened it in 2011 _ first internally but then they opened it in 2011 to - first internally but then they opened it in 2011 to all- first internally but then they i opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it was _ opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it was quite _ opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it was quite extraordinary. - opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it was quite extraordinary. you| it was quite extraordinary. you needed — it was quite extraordinary. you needed to— it was quite extraordinary. you needed to actually— it was quite extraordinary. you needed to actually say- it was quite extraordinary. you needed to actually say the - it was quite extraordinary. youj needed to actually say the first it was quite extraordinary. you i needed to actually say the first to do it was— needed to actually say the first to do it was the _ needed to actually say the first to do it was the left _ needed to actually say the first to do it was the left in _ needed to actually say the first to do it was the left in 2011. - needed to actually say the first to do it was the left in 2011. and it | do it was the left in 2011. and it was such a _ do it was the left in 2011. and it was such a success. _ do it was the left in 2011. and it was such a success. they - do it was the left in 2011. and it was such a success. they said, i do it was the left in 2011. and it. was such a success. they said, ok, everybody— was such a success. they said, ok, everybody who _ was such a success. they said, ok, everybody who embrace, _ was such a success. they said, ok, everybody who embrace, you - was such a success. they said, ok, everybody who embrace, you needl was such a success. they said, 0k, . everybody who embrace, you need to si-n everybody who embrace, you need to sign saying _ everybody who embrace, you need to sign saying i'm — everybody who embrace, you need to sign saying i'm embracing _ everybody who embrace, you need to sign saying i'm embracing basically. sign saying i'm embracing basically for the _ sign saying i'm embracing basically for the 97% — sign saying i'm embracing basically for the 97% of— sign saying i'm embracing basically for the 97% of the _ sign saying i'm embracing basically for the 97% of the world _ sign saying i'm embracing basicallyj for the 97% of the world population will he _ for the 97% of the world population will be able — for the 97% of the world population will be able to _ for the 97% of the world population will be able to say— for the 97% of the world population will be able to say yes. _ for the 97% of the world population will be able to say yes. it _ for the 97% of the world population will be able to say yes. it was - will be able to say yes. it was something _ will be able to say yes. it was something like, _ will be able to say yes. it was something like, do— will be able to say yes. it was something like, do you - will be able to say yes. it was i something like, do you embrace liberty, — something like, do you embrace liberty, equality— something like, do you embrace liberty, equality for— something like, do you embrace liberty, equality for eternity? i something like, do you embrace. liberty, equality for eternity? and people _ liberty, equality for eternity? and people were — liberty, equality for eternity? and people were really _ liberty, equality for eternity? and people were really excited - liberty, equality for eternity? and people were really excited to - liberty, equality for eternity? and people were really excited to be i people were really excited to be asked _ people were really excited to be asked their— people were really excited to be asked their opinion— people were really excited to be asked their opinion because - people were really excited to be| asked their opinion because they were _ asked their opinion because they were doing — asked their opinion because they were doing it— asked their opinion because they were doing it for— asked their opinion because they were doing it for the _ asked their opinion because they were doing it for the good - asked their opinion because they were doing it for the good of- asked their opinion because theyl were doing it for the good of their country— were doing it for the good of their country even _ were doing it for the good of their country even if _ were doing it for the good of their

country even if they— were doing it for the good of their country even if they didn't - were doing it for the good of their country even if they didn't belong| country even if they didn't belong to the _ country even if they didn't belong to the left — country even if they didn't belong to the left. did— country even if they didn't belong to the left. , ., ,, country even if they didn't belong to the left-— to the left. did it make for more electable candidates? _ to the left. did it make for more electable candidates? no. - to the left. did it make for more electable candidates? no. but. to the left. did it make for more i electable candidates? no. but now it's interesting _ electable candidates? no. but now it's interesting when _ electable candidates? no. but now it's interesting when you _ electable candidates? no. but now it's interesting when you are - it's interesting when you are talking — it's interesting when you are talking about _ it's interesting when you are talking about a _ it's interesting when you are talking about a pulling - it's interesting when you are talking about a pulling backl talking about a pulling back appealing _ talking about a pulling back appealing to _ talking about a pulling back appealing to the _ talking about a pulling back appealing to the centrist. . talking about a pulling back . appealing to the centrist. the talking about a pulling back - appealing to the centrist. the tory party— appealing to the centrist. the tory party has — appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed _ appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed so _ appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed so much- appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed so much in- appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed so much in the| party has changed so much in the last few— party has changed so much in the last few years _ party has changed so much in the last few years. it _ party has changed so much in the last few years. it used _ party has changed so much in the last few years. it used to be - party has changed so much in the last few years. it used to be a - party has changed so much in the. last few years. it used to be a very broad _ last few years. it used to be a very broad church _ last few years. it used to be a very broad church. there _ last few years. it used to be a very broad church. there is _ last few years. it used to be a very broad church. there is no - last few years. it used to be a very broad church. there is no centristl broad church. there is no centrist left in _ broad church. there is no centrist left in the — broad church. there is no centrist left in the tory _ broad church. there is no centrist left in the tory party. _ broad church. there is no centrist left in the tory party. there - broad church. there is no centrist left in the tory party. there used| left in the tory party. there used to be _ left in the tory party. there used to be the — left in the tory party. there used to be the party— left in the tory party. there used to be the party of— left in the tory party. there used to be the party of a _ left in the tory party. there used to be the party of a realist - left in the tory party. there used to be the party of a realist partyl to be the party of a realist party but now — to be the party of a realist party but now it's _ to be the party of a realist party but now it's a _ to be the party of a realist party but now it's a party _ to be the party of a realist party but now it's a party of _ to be the party of a realist party but now it's a party of fairy- to be the party of a realist party| but now it's a party of fairy tales tory— but now it's a party of fairy tales tory members _ but now it's a party of fairy tales tory members only— but now it's a party of fairy tales tory members only want - but now it's a party of fairy tales tory members only want to - but now it's a party of fairy tales tory members only want to be l tory members only want to be told fairy tales, — tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you _ tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you need _ tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you need to— tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you need to be - tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you need to be a - fairy tales, you need to be a believer— fairy tales, you need to be a believer or— fairy tales, you need to be a believer or not— fairy tales, you need to be a believer or not a _ fairy tales, you need to be a believer or not a realist. - fairy tales, you need to be a believer or not a realist. sol fairy tales, you need to be a - believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who — believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who is _ believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who is just _ believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who is just saying - believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who isjust saying look, ii sunak who isjust saying look, i think— sunak who isjust saying look, i think would _ sunak who isjust saying look, i think would be _ sunak who isjust saying look, i think would be responsible, - sunak who isjust saying look, i. think would be responsible, there sunak who isjust saying look, i- think would be responsible, there is inflation _ think would be responsible, there is inflation so — think would be responsible, there is inflation so therefore _ think would be responsible, there is inflation so therefore i _ think would be responsible, there is inflation so therefore i will - think would be responsible, there is inflation so therefore i will lower- inflation so therefore i will lower tax. inflation so therefore i will lower tax~ but — inflation so therefore i will lower tax~ but in— inflation so therefore i will lower tax~ but in a _ inflation so therefore i will lower tax. but in a second _ inflation so therefore i will lower tax. but in a second phase. - inflation so therefore i will lower tax. but in a second phase. he l inflation so therefore i will lower- tax. but in a second phase. he seen as a socialist, — tax. but in a second phase. he seen as a socialist, seen _ tax. but in a second phase. he seen as a socialist, seen as _ tax. but in a second phase. he seen as a socialist, seen as a _ tax. but in a second phase. he seen as a socialist, seen as a hard - as a socialist, seen as a hard realist— as a socialist, seen as a hard realist and _ as a socialist, seen as a hard realist and all— as a socialist, seen as a hard realist and all they _ as a socialist, seen as a hard realist and all they want - as a socialist, seen as a hard realist and all they want is l as a socialist, seen as a hardi realist and all they want is liz truss— realist and all they want is liz truss to — realist and all they want is liz truss to say, _ realist and all they want is liz truss to say, will _ realist and all they want is liz truss to say, will lower- realist and all they want is liz| truss to say, will lower taxes. realist and all they want is liz - truss to say, will lower taxes. but they also —

truss to say, will lower taxes. but they also want _ truss to say, will lower taxes. but they also want something - truss to say, will lower taxes. but they also want something in - truss to say, will lower taxes. but they also want something in the l they also want something in the opposite — they also want something in the opposite. they— they also want something in the opposite. they want _ they also want something in the opposite. they want more - they also want something in the - opposite. they want more investment in public— opposite. they want more investment in public services, _ opposite. they want more investment in public services, lower— opposite. they want more investment in public services, lower taxes. - in public services, lower taxes. more _ in public services, lower taxes. more help _ in public services, lower taxes. more help with— in public services, lower taxes. more help with fuel _ in public services, lower taxes. more help with fuel bills - in public services, lower taxes. more help with fuel bills or - in public services, lower taxes. i more help with fuel bills or things like that. �* ., , more help with fuel bills or things like that. 1, _ ., ,., more help with fuel bills or things like that. 1, _., _, . like that. boris johnson collect take his own, _ like that. boris johnson collect take his own, having _ like that. boris johnson collect take his own, having your- like that. boris johnson collectj take his own, having your cake like that. boris johnson collect - take his own, having your cake and eating _ take his own, having your cake and eating it _ take his own, having your cake and eating it it�*s — take his own, having your cake and eatin: it. 3 ., , eating it. it's really sad. listening _ eating it. it's really sad. listening to _ eating it. it's really sad. listening to you - eating it. it's really sad. listening to you both i i eating it. it's really sad. - listening to you both i think oh, i'm a bit ashamed actually that we should be having a leadership contest like this for a major party. it is actually disastrous for the conservative party to be on display like this, taking lumps out of each other in a totally unrealistic way. this is not the best of the conservative party. the conservative party is a great party, has a huge history and will revert in time to what it has been. i think a lot to blame is borisjohnson. he promoted a lot of really inferior people to his cabinet, he chopped off a lot of the very best brains in the party. and you're quite right, it is no longer a party of the centre, it is

moved to the far right. the danger for liz truss is that all her backers around the far right or most of her backers are on the far right. she does have some centrist backers but most of them, and i hope they're not reflected in the cabinet, because if they are, the party will move further and further away from the electorate as a whole. but move further and further away from the electorate as a whole.— the electorate as a whole. but they are not going _ the electorate as a whole. but they are not going to — the electorate as a whole. but they are not going to stay _ the electorate as a whole. but they are not going to stay powerful- the electorate as a whole. but they| are not going to stay powerful long, i are not going to stay powerful long, i think _ are not going to stay powerful long, i think there's— are not going to stay powerful long, i think. there's quite _ are not going to stay powerful long, i think. there's quite a _ are not going to stay powerful long, i think. there's quite a comfortable | i think. there's quite a comfortable margih _ i think. there's quite a comfortable margih look, _ i think. there's quite a comfortable margin. look, wait— i think. there's quite a comfortable margin. look, wait for— i think. there's quite a comfortable margin. look, wait for the - i think. there's quite a comfortable margin. look, wait for the winter. margin. look, wait for the winter when _ margin. look, wait for the winter when a _ margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot— margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot of— margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot of people _ margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot of people suffer- margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot of people suffer froml margin. look, wait for the winter. when a lot of people suffer from the cold, _ when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. _ when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. i— when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. i don't— when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. i don't disagree. - when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i. cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't— cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't think— cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't think brexit _ cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't think brexit is _ cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't think brexit is going - cold, inflation. idon't disagree. i don't think brexit is going to - cold, inflation. idon't disagree. ii don't think brexit is going to undo them _ don't think brexit is going to undo them in _ don't think brexit is going to undo them in the — don't think brexit is going to undo them in the end _ don't think brexit is going to undo them in the end although - don't think brexit is going to undo them in the end although brexit. don't think brexit is going to undo l them in the end although brexit will also show— them in the end although brexit will also show israel— them in the end although brexit will also show israel phase _ them in the end although brexit will also show israel phase even - them in the end although brexit will also show israel phase even though| also show israel phase even though they don't— also show israel phase even though they don't want _ also show israel phase even though they don't want to _ also show israel phase even though they don't want to see _ also show israel phase even though they don't want to see it. _ also show israel phase even though they don't want to see it. but - also show israel phase even though they don't want to see it. but wait i they don't want to see it. but wait for the _ they don't want to see it. but wait for the winter~ _ they don't want to see it. but wait for the winter.— they don't want to see it. but wait for the winter. let's talk about the winter in terms _ for the winter. let's talk about the winter in terms of _ for the winter. let's talk about the winter in terms of the _ for the winter. let's talk about the winter in terms of the energy - winter in terms of the energy crisis. we saw this week a few measures in germany, hanover i think is turning off the hot water. if you go to use the pool and shower afterwards it's going to be a cold

shower in public baths. it's a small measure but symbolic. do you think europeans, whether in the uk or the continent have yet grasped how difficult a winter in terms of energy, to delete gas prices are going to be? i energy, to delete gas prices are going to be?— energy, to delete gas prices are going to be? i think we will phase it in a few months' _ going to be? i think we will phase it in a few months' time _ going to be? i think we will phase it in a few months' time when - going to be? i think we will phase it in a few months' time when we | it in a few months' time when we all have by— it in a few months' time when we all have by government _ it in a few months' time when we all have by government to _ it in a few months' time when we all have by government to agree - it in a few months' time when we all have by government to agree to - it in a few months' time when we all. have by government to agree to lower all the buildings _ have by government to agree to lower all the buildings will— have by government to agree to lower all the buildings will have _ have by government to agree to lower all the buildings will have to _ all the buildings will have to do that _ all the buildings will have to do that the — all the buildings will have to do that. the schools, the - all the buildings will have to do i that. the schools, the swimming pools as— that. the schools, the swimming pools as you _ that. the schools, the swimming pools as you were _ that. the schools, the swimming pools as you were saying, - that. the schools, the swimming pools as you were saying, but i that. the schools, the swimmingj pools as you were saying, but for that. the schools, the swimming i pools as you were saying, but for us here around — pools as you were saying, but for us here around this _ pools as you were saying, but for us here around this table _ pools as you were saying, but for us here around this table it _ pools as you were saying, but for us here around this table it will- pools as you were saying, but for us here around this table it will be i here around this table it will be 'ust here around this table it will be just one — here around this table it will be just one or— here around this table it will be just one or 2_ here around this table it will be just one or 2 degrees— here around this table it will be just one or 2 degrees less i here around this table it will be just one or 2 degrees less in i here around this table it will bel just one or 2 degrees less in our homes but_ just one or 2 degrees less in our homes but for— just one or 2 degrees less in our homes. but for a _ just one or 2 degrees less in our homes. but for a lot _ just one or 2 degrees less in our homes. but for a lot of - just one or 2 degrees less in our homes. but for a lot of people l just one or 2 degrees less in our. homes. but for a lot of people it be much _ homes. but for a lot of people it be much worse than _ homes. but for a lot of people it be much worse than that. _ homes. but for a lot of people it be much worse than that. there - homes. but for a lot of people it be much worse than that. there are i homes. but for a lot of people it be. much worse than that. there are any strikes, discontent, _ much worse than that. there are any strikes, discontent, there _ much worse than that. there are any strikes, discontent, there is- strikes, discontent, there is inflation _ strikes, discontent, there is inflation which _ strikes, discontent, there is inflation which in _ strikes, discontent, there is inflation which in the - strikes, discontent, there is inflation which in the uk - strikes, discontent, there is inflation which in the uk is i strikes, discontent, there is- inflation which in the uk is made much _ inflation which in the uk is made much worse _ inflation which in the uk is made much worse by— inflation which in the uk is made much worse by brexit. _ inflation which in the uk is made much worse by brexit. of - inflation which in the uk is made much worse by brexit. of course j inflation which in the uk is made i much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer_ much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer from — much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer from inflation _ much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer from inflation but- much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer from inflation but it's - all suffer from inflation but it's worse — all suffer from inflation but it's worse in — all suffer from inflation but it's worse in the _ all suffer from inflation but it's worse in the uk. _ all suffer from inflation but it's worse in the uk. in— all suffer from inflation but it's worse in the uk. in the - all suffer from inflation but it's . worse in the uk. in the recession all suffer from inflation but it's - worse in the uk. in the recession is looming _ worse in the uk. in the recession is looming and — worse in the uk. in the recession is looming and were _ worse in the uk. in the recession is looming and were not _ worse in the uk. in the recession is looming and were not there - worse in the uk. in the recession is looming and were not there yet. i worse in the uk. in the recession is. looming and were not there yet. this is how— looming and were not there yet. this is how government _ looming and were not there yet. this is how government in _ looming and were not there yet. this is how government in the _ looming and were not there yet. this is how government in the late -

looming and were not there yet. this is how government in the late 70s i is how government in the late 70s here fell — is how government in the late 70s here felt. that's _ is how government in the late 70s here felt. that's why _ is how government in the late 70s here felt. that's why i _ is how government in the late 70s here felt. that's why i think- here felt. that's why i think reality and _ here felt. that's why i think reality and the _ here felt. that's why i think reality and the end - here felt. that's why i think reality and the end will - here felt. that's why i think| reality and the end will have here felt. that's why i think- reality and the end will have the upper— reality and the end will have the upper hand~ _ reality and the end will have the upper hand. this— reality and the end will have the upper hand. this tory— reality and the end will have the . upper hand. this tory government will fall _ upper hand. this tory government will fall also _ upper hand. this tory government will fall. also liz— upper hand. this tory government will fall. also liz truss _ upper hand. this tory government will fall. also liz truss and - upper hand. this tory government will fall. also liz truss and boris l will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson — will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson as— will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson as seen _ will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson as seen from _ will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson as seen from brussels l will fall. also liz truss and boris| johnson as seen from brussels is the same _ johnson as seen from brussels is the same. ., ., ' ' johnson as seen from brussels is the same. ., ., " i. same. the mention of 1972 you live throu~h same. the mention of 1972 you live through the — same. the mention of 1972 you live through the energy _ same. the mention of 1972 you live through the energy crisis _ same. the mention of 1972 you live through the energy crisis in - same. the mention of 1972 you live through the energy crisis in the - through the energy crisis in the state. , �* . ., | state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good — state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good to _ state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good to say _ state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good to say that. - state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good to say that. as - state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't good to say that. as a l state. yes i did, i'm that old. i- wasn't good to say that. as a mature and experienced journalist and observer, otherany and experienced journalist and observer, other any lessons at all for most britons? is a pretty horrible want for americans and jimmy carter who launched offered soon afterwards. and joe biden is facing more. he's desperately trying to find of keeping the price of fuel for cars and other vehicles down. it's a lot more complicated. it for cars and other vehicles down. it's a lot more complicated.- it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation. _ it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation, it's _ it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation, it's all— it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation, it's all the - it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation, it's all the supply . it's inflation, it's all the supply chain— it's inflation, it's all the supply chain problems, it's ukraine. there are lots— chain problems, it's ukraine. there are lots of— chain problems, it's ukraine. there are lots of headwinds in the

economy. interestingly, the average price of— economy. interestingly, the average price of gasoline has gone down, 4 cents— price of gasoline has gone down, 4 cents a _ price of gasoline has gone down, 4 cents a gallon in the last month. all the _ cents a gallon in the last month. all the republicans talking about how this — all the republicans talking about how this is the beginning of the —— 40. how this is the beginning of the —— 40 have — how this is the beginning of the —— 40. have something else to talk about now. saw this in the carter era with — about now. saw this in the carter era with higher energy prices leading — era with higher energy prices leading to stagflation, high interest rates i remember my wife's grandfather had a significant deposit _ grandfather had a significant deposit that paid him 18% because that was— deposit that paid him 18% because that was what you can get in the bank— that was what you can get in the bank for— that was what you can get in the bank for in — that was what you can get in the bank for in interest rate in those days _ bank for in interest rate in those days but — bank for in interest rate in those days. but you had to pay 30% for a mortgage — days. but you had to pay 30% for a mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and it— mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and itjust _ mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and itjust took mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and it just took the steam mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and itjust took the steam out of jimmy— and itjust took the steam out of jimmy carter. 0n the other hand, it was the— jimmy carter. 0n the other hand, it was the first — jimmy carter. 0n the other hand, it was the first big effort to get conservation and alternative energy sources _ conservation and alternative energy sources into the infrastructure system — sources into the infrastructure system it _ sources into the infrastructure system. it had long—term positive consequences but i thinkjoe biden of course _ consequences but i thinkjoe biden of course has to be worried. joe mentioned, allowed a big bill to go through. _ mentioned, allowed a big bill to go

through, stimulus bill, health care, energy— through, stimulus bill, health care, energy which was a surprise. it�*s energy which was a surprise. it's been a no _ energy which was a surprise. it�*s been a no man's life of the last two years. been a no man's life of the last two ears. , ., , been a no man's life of the last two ears. , . , ., ~ been a no man's life of the last two ears. , . , . ~ ., years. yes all this talk that democrats _ years. yes all this talk that democrats can do - years. yes all this talk that democrats can do anythingj years. yes all this talk that i democrats can do anything at years. yes all this talk that - democrats can do anything at all of the laws _ democrats can do anything at all of the laws will actually their numbers are getting better in the polls. the republicans have picked some very strange _ republicans have picked some very strange senate candidates who are trumped _ strange senate candidates who are trumped fealty type people. it may not be _ trumped fealty type people. it may not be as _ trumped fealty type people. it may not be as awful for biden yet. it could _ not be as awful for biden yet. it could be — not be as awful for biden yet. it could be if— not be as awful for biden yet. it could be if everybody gets cold and miserable — could be if everybody gets cold and miserable in the wintertime. there is some very _ miserable in the wintertime. there is some very striking _ miserable in the wintertime. there is some very striking things - miserable in the wintertime. it” is some very striking things about this when jeff talks about is some very striking things about this whenjeff talks about energy conservation. gm two germany has made a pitch peculiar decisions of the last two years for the gas prom was suddenly going to do maintenance work on ignored stream one, the surviving gas line which is mysteriously reduced 20% of what it would normally be put germans are 50% reliant on gas from russia. their nuclear power stations are due to ship i december. they banned fracking even though they used it

quite happily, bandit under the merkel government. they've kind of put themselves in the worst possible position. i put themselves in the worst possible osition. , , ,.,, , put themselves in the worst possible osition. , , , . position. i suppose they have. i 'ust position. i suppose they have. i just came _ position. i suppose they have. i just came back _ position. i suppose they have. i just came back to _ position. i suppose they have. i just came back to britain - position. i suppose they have. i just came back to britain all - position. i suppose they have. i j just came back to britain all the time on this because this autumn people are going to be fazed by really horrendous price increases in their energy and even worse in january, another price race. so at that stage the government is going to have to intervene in a major way. i think agnes is quite right, most people can survive perfectly well, 80% of the population will survive pretty well. at about 20% cannot and will actually seriously either be short of food or be cold and really dangerous conditions. any government right, left, centre, any thing will have to intervene at that point i don't think people quite realise the degree of intervention is necessary. and the degree of neutralisation.

what is going to have to happen is 80% who may be suffering a bit and always borderline on these things are going to have to support that 20%. they're totally ill prepared at the moment. i really didn't answer your question because i wasn't capable of doing so. it’s capable of doing so. it's interesting _ capable of doing so. it's interesting to _ capable of doing so. it's interesting to see - capable of doing so. it's interesting to see how different countries — interesting to see how different countries reacts _ interesting to see how different countries reacts also, _ interesting to see how different countries reacts also, the - interesting to see how different. countries reacts also, the picture in europe — countries reacts also, the picture in europe is— countries reacts also, the picture in europe is so— countries reacts also, the picture in europe is so diverse. - countries reacts also, the picture in europe is so diverse. that's. countries reacts also, the picture. in europe is so diverse. that's why there _ in europe is so diverse. that's why there was— in europe is so diverse. that's why there was this _ in europe is so diverse. that's why there was this agreement - in europe is so diverse. that's why there was this agreement at - in europe is so diverse. that's why| there was this agreement at lease, it's there was this agreement at lease, its not— there was this agreement at lease, it's not mandatory, _ there was this agreement at lease, it's not mandatory, it's _ there was this agreement at lease, it's not mandatory, it's not - it's not mandatory, it's not compulsory _ it's not mandatory, it's not compulsory for— it's not mandatory, it's not compulsory for the - it's not mandatory, it's not compulsory for the 15%. ifi it's not mandatory, it's not. compulsory for the 15%. if you it's not mandatory, it's not - compulsory for the 15%. if you look at austria — compulsory for the 15%. if you look at austria is — compulsory for the 15%. if you look at austria is dependent _ compulsory for the 15%. if you look at austria is dependent 100% - compulsory for the 15%. if you look at austria is dependent 100% on i at austria is dependent 100% on russian — at austria is dependent 100% on russian gas _ at austria is dependent 100% on russian gas and _ at austria is dependent 100% on russian gas and spain, - at austria is dependent 100% on russian gas and spain, not - at austria is dependent 100% on russian gas and spain, not at i at austria is dependent 100% oni russian gas and spain, not at all. so of— russian gas and spain, not at all. so of course _ russian gas and spain, not at all. so of course there _ russian gas and spain, not at all. so of course there will— russian gas and spain, not at all. so of course there will be - russian gas and spain, not at all.| so of course there will be national opt outs — so of course there will be national opt outs it's _ so of course there will be national opt outs. it's interesting - so of course there will be national opt outs. it's interesting to- so of course there will be national opt outs. it's interesting to see, l so of course there will be national opt outs. it's interesting to see, a law was— opt outs. it's interesting to see, a law was passed _ opt outs. it's interesting to see, a law was passed back— opt outs. it's interesting to see, a law was passed back in _ opt outs. it's interesting to see, a law was passed back in december| opt outs. it's interesting to see, a . law was passed back in december or january in— law was passed back in december or january in france _ law was passed back in december or january in france to _ law was passed back in december or january in france to energy- law was passed back in december or january in france to energy prices i january in france to energy prices by 4%~ _ january in france to energy prices by % for— january in france to energy prices by 4%. for how— january in france to energy prices by 4%. for how cells _ january in france to energy prices by 4%. for how cells come - january in france to energy prices by 4%. for how cells come and i january in france to energy prices i by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies — by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies. so they _ by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies. so they will _ by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies. so they will pay - by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies. so they will pay the - by 4%. for how cells come and offer companies. so they will pay the full| companies. so they will pay the full price _ companies. so they will pay the full price and _ companies. so they will pay the full

price. and there _ companies. so they will pay the full price. and there will— companies. so they will pay the full price. and there will be _ companies. so they will pay the full price. and there will be package, i price. and there will be package, governments _ price. and there will be package, governments will— price. and there will be package, governments will need _ price. and there will be package, governments will need to - price. and there will be package, governments will need to help i governments will need to help people — governments will need to help pebble. also— governments will need to help people. also france _ governments will need to help people. also france has- governments will need to help - people. also france has nationalised or is about _ people. also france has nationalised or is about to — people. also france has nationalised or is about to nationalise _ people. also france has nationalised or is about to nationalise edf. - people. also france has nationalised or is about to nationalise edf. [n - or is about to nationalise edf. in order or is about to nationalise edf. order to help through the or is about to nationalise edfm order to help through the crisis, all utilities and a lot of it, utilities going under and effectively government having to step in and support the companies and move people across to other suppliers. and big suppliers. but jef, when you look at the situation, russia is sitting pretty at the moment. oil is a problem, can't afford to be not selling oil and it's found pretty creative ways to get around sanctions to sell oil. but gas only represents 2% of its gdp. it can turn off all the guess if it wanted to and europe will pay a hefty price was up is done it with a hefty price was up is done it with a number of european countries, and a few in ukraine. the a number of european countries, and a few in ukraine.— a few in ukraine. the solution to this for your _ a few in ukraine. the solution to this for your has _ a few in ukraine. the solution to this for your has to _ a few in ukraine. the solution to this for your has to take - a few in ukraine. the solution to this for your has to take longer l this for your has to take longer than the — this for your has to take longer than the amount of time available to

-et than the amount of time available to get to— than the amount of time available to get to the _ than the amount of time available to get to the winter to change energy infrastructure, natural gas building, you need terminals and more _ building, you need terminals and more ships. it's there, you can do more _ more ships. it's there, you can do more windmills, you could do lots of things— more windmills, you could do lots of things but— more windmills, you could do lots of things but it — more windmills, you could do lots of things but it will take to to four years— things but it will take to to four years to — things but it will take to to four years to get done. i think this is but in _ years to get done. i think this is but in his— years to get done. i think this is put in his game for them in the meantime, _ put in his game for them in the meantime, the money he's getting for the oil— meantime, the money he's getting for the oil that— meantime, the money he's getting for the oil that is selling isjust as much — the oil that is selling isjust as much is — the oil that is selling isjust as much is what he was getting before even though they were sanctions because — even though they were sanctions because the price gone up. so he's able to— because the price gone up. so he's able to shield the economy from some of the _ able to shield the economy from some of the effects of sanctions. doesn't nrean _ of the effects of sanctions. doesn't nrean it's— of the effects of sanctions. doesn't mean it's all rosy for him, of course _ mean it's all rosy for him, of course. a lot of the tech sanctions are apparently affecting industrial and weapons production. in particular they can't get the chips to do— particular they can't get the chips to do the — particular they can't get the chips to do the fancy stuff they need to do to— to do the fancy stuff they need to do to fight effectively. i think he figures — do to fight effectively. i think he figures wait long enough, maybe it will cause — figures wait long enough, maybe it will cause disruption in germany and france and _ will cause disruption in germany and france and england and america and maybe _ france and england and america and maybe trump comes back again. his body in _ maybe trump comes back again. his

body in the — maybe trump comes back again. his body in the white house, everybody will be _ body in the white house, everybody will be able to turn off the pressure. i think it's going to be more _ pressure. i think it's going to be more difficult than he certainly thought— more difficult than he certainly thought he was getting into when he -ot thought he was getting into when he got started in ukraine. i�*m thought he was getting into when he got started in ukraine.— got started in ukraine. i'm glad you mentioned ukraine _ got started in ukraine. i'm glad you mentioned ukraine because - got started in ukraine. i'm glad you mentioned ukraine because i- got started in ukraine. i'm glad you mentioned ukraine because i was. mentioned ukraine because i was struck by a quote from the german foreign minister who asked, what happens if gas is cut off this winter and she said we won't be able to provide any support for ukraine at all because we will be busy with popular uprising. at all because we will be busy with pepuiar uprising-— popular uprising. that's the thing. it's aroin popular uprising. that's the thing. it's going to _ popular uprising. that's the thing. it's going to test _ popular uprising. that's the thing. it's going to test and _ popular uprising. that's the thing. it's going to test and challenge . it's going to test and challenge european — it's going to test and challenge european unity _ it's going to test and challenge european unity on _ it's going to test and challenge european unity on ukraine. - it's going to test and challenge| european unity on ukraine. you it's going to test and challenge - european unity on ukraine. you could argue _ european unity on ukraine. you could argue it's _ european unity on ukraine. you could argue its two — european unity on ukraine. you could argue it's two different _ european unity on ukraine. you could argue it's two different things. - european unity on ukraine. you could argue it's two different things. we . argue it's two different things. we need _ argue it's two different things. we need to— argue it's two different things. we need to send _ argue it's two different things. we need to send weapons _ argue it's two different things. we need to send weapons and - argue it's two different things. we need to send weapons and make i argue it's two different things. we . need to send weapons and make sure that ukraine — need to send weapons and make sure that ukraine is — need to send weapons and make sure that ukraine is fast _ need to send weapons and make sure that ukraine is fast tracked _ need to send weapons and make sure that ukraine is fast tracked to - that ukraine is fast tracked to become a _ that ukraine is fast tracked to become a member— that ukraine is fast tracked to become a member of- that ukraine is fast tracked to become a member of the - that ukraine is fast tracked to - become a member of the european union _ become a member of the european union look— become a member of the european union looi

instrumental in convincing business leaders _ instrumental in convincing business leaders in _ instrumental in convincing business leaders in itaty— instrumental in convincing business leaders in italy to _ instrumental in convincing business leaders in italy to back— instrumental in convincing business leaders in italy to back sanctions i leaders in italy to back sanctions because — leaders in italy to back sanctions because itaty— leaders in italy to back sanctions because italy political _ leaders in italy to back sanctions because italy political cloud... . leaders in italy to back sanctions . because italy political cloud... and imagined. — because italy political cloud... and imagined. atso _ because italy political cloud... and imagined, also in _ because italy political cloud... and imagined, also in france _ because italy political cloud... and imagined, also in france as- because italy political cloud... and imagined, also in france as you i because italy political cloud... and i imagined, also in france as you say, president _ imagined, also in france as you say, president emmanuel— imagined, also in france as you say, president emmanuel macron - imagined, also in france as you say, i president emmanuel macron doesn't have the _ president emmanuel macron doesn't have the absolute _ president emmanuel macron doesn't have the absolute majority _ president emmanuel macron doesn't have the absolute majority or- president emmanuel macron doesn't have the absolute majority or even l have the absolute majority or even the majority— have the absolute majority or even the majority at _ have the absolute majority or even the majority at the _ have the absolute majority or even the majority at the national - the majority at the national assembly _ the majority at the national assembly. and _ the majority at the national assembly. and it's - the majority at the national assembly. and it's stuck. the majority at the national - assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent — assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent far _ assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent far right, _ assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent far right, far— assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent far right, far left - assembly. and it's stuck between a very potent far right, far left for - very potent far right, far left for them _ very potent far right, far left for them and — very potent far right, far left for them and they— very potent far right, far left for them and they have _ very potent far right, far left for them and they have in - very potent far right, far left for them and they have in common| very potent far right, far left for. them and they have in common a very potent far right, far left for - them and they have in common a lot among _ them and they have in common a lot among others— them and they have in common a lot among others to _ them and they have in common a lot among others to be _ them and they have in common a lot among others to be very— them and they have in common a lot among others to be very lenient - them and they have in common a lot among others to be very lenient on i among others to be very lenient on russia _ among others to be very lenient on russia so — among others to be very lenient on russia so if— among others to be very lenient on russia. so if politics _ among others to be very lenient on russia. so if politics change - among others to be very lenient on russia. so if politics change in- among others to be very lenient on russia. so if politics change in a i russia. so if politics change in a manual— russia. so if politics change in a manual microphone _ russia. so if politics change in a manual microphone is _ russia. so if politics change in a manual microphone is in- russia. so if politics change in a i manual microphone is in difficulty because _ manual microphone is in difficulty because in— manual microphone is in difficulty because in berlin— manual microphone is in difficulty because in berlin the _ manual microphone is in difficulty because in berlin the german - because in berlin the german chancettor— because in berlin the german chancellor is _ because in berlin the german chancellor is trying _ because in berlin the german chancellor is trying to - because in berlin the german chancellor is trying to find - because in berlin the german chancellor is trying to find ——| chancellor is trying to find —— emmanuet— chancellor is trying to find —— emmanuel macron. - chancellor is trying to find —— emmanuel macron. if- chancellor is trying to find —— emmanuel macron. if he - chancellor is trying to find —— i emmanuel macron. if he goes chancellor is trying to find —— - emmanuel macron. if he goes he's guite _ emmanuel macron. if he goes he's guite atone~ — emmanuel macron. if he goes he's quite atone~ he _ emmanuel macron. if he goes he's quite alone. he said _ emmanuel macron. if he goes he's quite alone. he said something - quite alone. he said something interesting, _ quite alone. he said something interesting, it— quite alone. he said something interesting, it was _ quite alone. he said something interesting, it was during - quite alone. he said something interesting, it was during a - quite alone. he said something interesting, it was during a tripj quite alone. he said something . interesting, it was during a trip in africa _ interesting, it was during a trip in africa in— interesting, it was during a trip in africa in the — interesting, it was during a trip in africa in the last _ interesting, it was during a trip in africa in the last few— interesting, it was during a trip in africa in the last few days. - interesting, it was during a trip in africa in the last few days. he - interesting, it was during a trip in| africa in the last few days. he said that putin — africa in the last few days. he said that putin was _ africa in the last few days. he said that putin was waging _ africa in the last few days. he said that putin was waging a _ africa in the last few days. he said that putin was waging a new - africa in the last few days. he said that putin was waging a new worldj that putin was waging a new world war, that putin was waging a new world war. a _ that putin was waging a new world war. a hybrid _ that putin was waging a new world war, a hybrid world _ that putin was waging a new world

war, a hybrid world war— that putin was waging a new world war, a hybrid world war made - that putin was waging a new world war, a hybrid world war made of. war, a hybrid world war made of weapon— war, a hybrid world war made of weapon icing _ war, a hybrid world war made of weapon icing food _ war, a hybrid world war made of weapon icing food and _ war, a hybrid world war made of weapon icing food and energy i war, a hybrid world war made of. weapon icing food and energy and war, a hybrid world war made of- weapon icing food and energy and he talked _ weapon icing food and energy and he talked about — weapon icing food and energy and he talked about in _ weapon icing food and energy and he talked about in imperialistic- talked about in imperialistic continental— talked about in imperialistic continental war. _ talked about in imperialistic continental war.— talked about in imperialistic continentalwar. , continental war. this is put lynn? on putin, continental war. this is put lynn? 0n putin, a _ continental war. this is put lynn? on putin, a pollutants _ continental war. this is put lynn? on putin, a pollutants plan? - continental war. this is put lynn? on putin, a pollutants plan? and| on putin, a pollutants plan? and popular unity for supporting ukraine because i do think it be tested by this? because people think our energy is more expensive because of russia's sanctions therefore if we take pressure off at your bills will drop. it's as simplistic argument. what liz truss has been saying, i think she recognised thatjohnson did very well by the support of ukraine. and he is deeply embedded there. so i can't really see any future conservative leader on fat. the rhetoric will always be pro—ukraine. as for the gas, in the end it's a world price which the sizes. it's not as though some

country is cut off altogether, everyone will be paying a world price with the world price dictates huge leaps, astronomic sums being paid for the gas. actually, it isn't really a cut off point it's just a matter of how much you're willing to pay for gas supply. {3.35 matter of how much you're willing to pay for gas supply-_ pay for gas supply. gas at the moment for — pay for gas supply. gas at the moment for the _ pay for gas supply. gas at the moment for the winter - pay for gas supply. gas at the moment for the winter is - pay for gas supply. gas at the i moment for the winter is running pay for gas supply. gas at the - moment for the winter is running at seven times the long—term trend, which is pretty frightening. one final thing to talk about, donald trump back in washington this week. i wonder, what is the dilemma for the us government about how it handles donald trump? is he contemplating the possibility of charging him in some way for his alleged involvement in the january six by alessia? the alleged involvement in the january six by alessia?— alleged involvement in the january six by alessia? the newspapers are well informed _ six by alessia? the newspapers are well informed and _ six by alessia? the newspapers are well informed and saying _ six by alessia? the newspapers are well informed and saying that - six by alessia? the newspapers are well informed and saying that the l well informed and saying that the justice _ well informed and saying that the justice department is actually investigating him as well as the underlings in the january six riots. i underlings in the january six riots. i have _ underlings in the january six riots. i have been— underlings in the january six riots. i have been an addict of the congressional hearings on the subject— congressional hearings on the subject i— congressional hearings on the subject i have to say. when you look

at them _ subject i have to say. when you look at them and — subject i have to say. when you look at them and they say of course, they don't _ at them and they say of course, they don't have _ at them and they say of course, they don't have cross examination, some procedural— don't have cross examination, some procedural difficulties but it's an extremely careful explication of the evidence _ extremely careful explication of the evidence. lovingly and very carefully _ evidence. lovingly and very carefully laid out and told mostly by republicans in donald trumps in a circle _ by republicans in donald trumps in a circle and _ by republicans in donald trumps in a circle. and there is no doubt that he knew— circle. and there is no doubt that he knew that he did not get reelected and he was determined to hold onto _ reelected and he was determined to hold onto power and use all sorts of chicanery— hold onto power and use all sorts of chicanery to — hold onto power and use all sorts of chicanery to do it. at two that is sedition~ — chicanery to do it. at two that is sedition~ it— chicanery to do it. at two that is sedition. it is a criminal act, he tried _ sedition. it is a criminal act, he tried to — sedition. it is a criminal act, he tried to interfere with the congressional session by having the rioters _ congressional session by having the rioters go. — congressional session by having the rioters go, knowing that they were going. _ rioters go, knowing that they were going, summoning them, saying he was --oin going, summoning them, saying he was going with _ going, summoning them, saying he was going with them and not doing anything — going with them and not doing anything when mike pence was calling for help— anything when mike pence was calling for help and came very close to running — for help and came very close to running into the crowd, could've gotten _ running into the crowd, could've gotten killed. lots of people coutd've _ gotten killed. lots of people could've been killed, it was terribly— could've been killed, it was terribly dangerous. so this is the dilemma, — terribly dangerous. so this is the dilemma, it has to be a political decision, — dilemma, it has to be a political decision, you can't charge a crime of a former—

decision, you can't charge a crime of a former sitting president when you are _ of a former sitting president when you are the current sitting president. going into an election. of course — president. going into an election. of course it's political. but you can't _ of course it's political. but you can't do — of course it's political. but you can't do it. _ of course it's political. but you can't do it, also if it'sjust going to be _ can't do it, also if it'sjust going to be a — can't do it, also if it'sjust going to be a throw away, try to throw some _ to be a throw away, try to throw some charges which we see in other countries _ some charges which we see in other countries do — some charges which we see in other countries do to its former leaders. ithink— countries do to its former leaders. i think this — countries do to its former leaders. i think this is the dilemma for biden— i think this is the dilemma for biden who doesn't like the star. he wants— biden who doesn't like the star. he wants to _ biden who doesn't like the star. he wants to be — biden who doesn't like the star. he wants to be a forward—looking moderate for them and his attorney general, _ moderate for them and his attorney general, merit darling very moderate, very by the bookjustice department lifer —— merit garland. this is— department lifer —— merit garland. this is the — department lifer —— merit garland. this is the most agonising decision they can _ this is the most agonising decision they can possibly take and they're going _ they can possibly take and they're going to _ they can possibly take and they're going to have to get a damn lot of evidence — going to have to get a damn lot of evidence or— going to have to get a damn lot of evidence or knowing can disagree with it _ evidence or knowing can disagree with it except trumps core supporters who will always disagree with it _ supporters who will always disagree with it. , . ., , with it. gerald ford faced this dilemma- _ with it. gerald ford faced this dilemma. although _ with it. gerald ford faced this dilemma. although it - with it. gerald ford faced this dilemma. although it did - with it. gerald ford faced this dilemma. although it did a i with it. gerald ford faced this| dilemma. although it did a lot of damage to any part pardoned richie nixon, his immediate predecessor from the same party. and he made the distinction between the man and the office. in other words, what he

might not of liked about the man and what he done it was more important to protect the credibility of the office. in a sense the dilemma is the same now isn't it? i office. in a sense the dilemma is the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent — the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent it _ the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent it is. _ the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent it is. on _ the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent it is. on the _ the same now isn't it? i supposed to some extent it is. on the other- some extent it is. on the other hand, there is a rule of law. if someone has committed high crimes and misdemeanors as trump appears to have done and the evidence is really like to have find, likejeff, a total addict to the hearings, the evidence is overwhelming that he has committed criminal acts. now whether a jury and judge will find out that he is guilty of them all or not but the evidence is there, sufficient to charge them. i suppose coming from the british tradition with politics is not meant to enter into judicial decisions, i think he should be charged in the interest of a law—abiding country. america is a country of laws. and that's what he should be charged and i hope that particular metal, and i realise how difficult a decision it is for an american president to do but i think

the rule of law should take precedence.— the rule of law should take recedence. , , , precedence. the riski suppose is if he were to — precedence. the riski suppose is if he were to win _ precedence. the riski suppose is if he were to win the _ precedence. the riski suppose is if he were to win the case, _ precedence. the riski suppose is if he were to win the case, even - precedence. the riski suppose is if| he were to win the case, even more strength in his campaign. yes. he were to win the case, even more strength in his campaign. yes, true. but the evidence _ strength in his campaign. yes, true. but the evidence seems _ strength in his campaign. yes, true. but the evidence seems to - strength in his campaign. yes, true. but the evidence seems to be - but the evidence seems to be devastating _ but the evidence seems to be devastating. and _ but the evidence seems to be devastating. and the - but the evidence seems to be devastating. and the cause i but the evidence seems to be devastating. and the cause of justice — devastating. and the cause of justice should _ devastating. and the cause of justice should run. _ devastating. and the cause of justice should run. i— devastating. and the cause of justice should run. i was- devastating. and the cause of- justice should run. i was fascinated by liz— justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney— justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney who _ justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney who is _ justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney who is the _ justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney who is the vice - justice should run. i was fascinated by liz cheney who is the vice chair. also the _ by liz cheney who is the vice chair. also the former _ by liz cheney who is the vice chair. also the former us _ by liz cheney who is the vice chair. also the former us vice president i also the former us vice president for the she had a fantastic point in having dozens of republicans making the case against a republican. it the case against a republican. it means it's not democrats against repubticans _ means it's not democrats against republicans. ten _ means it's not democrats against republicans— means it's not democrats against reublicans. ,g . republicans. ten seconds, jef. will biden be the _ republicans. ten seconds, jef. will biden be the democratic— republicans. ten seconds, jef. will biden be the democratic candidate | biden be the democratic candidate will trump be the republican candidate. will trump be the republican candidate-— will trump be the republican candidate. �* , ., ~' will trump be the republican candidate. �* , ., ~ ., candidate. i'm beginning to think no one trump because _ candidate. i'm beginning to think no one trump because polling - candidate. i'm beginning to think no one trump because polling is - candidate. i'm beginning to think no i one trump because polling is showing people _ one trump because polling is showing people are _ one trump because polling is showing people are getting tired of him. a lot people are getting tired of him. a tot of— people are getting tired of him. a lot of democrats are tired of biden but i don't — lot of democrats are tired of biden but i don't think you want to go anywhere _ but i don't think you want to go anywhere-— but i don't think you want to go an here. ., ~' . , . anywhere. thank you all very much. thank ou anywhere. thank you all very much. thank you all— anywhere. thank you all very much. thank you all for _ anywhere. thank you all very much.

thank you all for the _ anywhere. thank you all very much. thank you all for the more - anywhere. thank you all very much. thank you all for the more dateline | thank you all for the more dateline london next week. bye—bye. hello. many of us need rain at the moment, some of us are going to get some over the weekend, but it may well be that southern parts of the uk stay pretty much dry. there is the increasing chance of some rain at times, but not all the time as we move through the weekend at the commonwealth games in birmingham and the west midlands, and that rain bearing cloud has been gathering to the north west of us, this strip of cloud on our earlier satellite image. this is in association with a frontal system starting to push in now from the northwest, bringing cloud and rain through the evening across northern ireland into scotland. the odd heavy burst over

high ground in the west, rain too into north west england and north wales, and it will be turning really misty and murky with some hill and coastalfog across many of these north western areas. clear spells further south and east. it will be warm and muggy, 12 to 16 celsius the overnight lows. so into tomorrow, this frontal system continues to trudge its way slowly southwards and eastwards with that extensive cloud, that mist and fog and those outbreaks of rain. so rain pushing southwards through the morning across scotland and northern ireland, tending to clear out into northern england, parts of north wales. it won't be raining all the time. that rain will be quite sporadic, quite on and off. some of it could just drift into the north midlands and maybe even parts of east anglia as we go through the afternoon. but very little, if any, rain getting down into southern counties, where will be warm 26 or 27 celsius. but even further north, quite warm and quite humid, 22 celsius, for example, there in aberdeen. through saturday night, we see a feed of cloud continuing to roll in from the west. still some rather misty, murky conditions, especially around

the coasts and over the hills. further outbreaks of rain drifting in as well. for sunday, there's a bit of uncertainty about just how far north orjust how far south this lump of wet weather will be. but it does look quite likely that southern counties aren't going to see very much rain, and it will brighten up later across scotland and northern ireland. feeling cooler and fresher here. still pretty warm and humid down towards the south. so 26 celsius likely to be the temperature at wembley for the kick—off of the euro 2022 final, could be the odd spot of rain from this cloud. and then as we head into next week, there is some rain in the outlook, but, again, most of that up towards the north and the west of the uk, not much of it down to the south. it should turn a little cooler, though, later in the week.

this is bbc news with shaun ley. these are the latest headlines for the viewers in the uk and around the world. a0 ukrainian prisoners of war are said to have been killed in a missile attack in a jail in the occupied it do next region. —— donetsk region. ajudge has ruled that thousands of surviving victims should receive 6—figure compensation now. rebekah vardy loses her case against another footballer wife, coueen against another footballer wife, colleen rooney, over claims about private information leaked to the media. two people are arrested over a stabbing of a nine—year—old girl.