this is bbc news, the headlines: a federal emergency has been declared in the us state of kentucky after floods caused at least 25 deaths. the governor, andy beshear says many residents remained unaccounted for, while hundreds of homes and businesses have been washed away, in the east of the region. the white house says president biden has tested positive for covid—19 for a second time in two weeks. doctors said the 79—year—old returned the test, after four consecutive days of negative results. he is now back in strict isolation at the white house. pope francis has said health problems are likely to force him to scale down his busy international travel schedule — and may even lead to his retirement. speaking after a six—day visit to canada, the 85—year—old pontiff said his age and

frailty had led his decision. now on bbc news, dateline london with shaun ley. hello and welcome to the programme which brings together leading british journalists with foreign correspondents based in the uk who write, blog, podcast and broadcast from the dateline london. ballot papers will be sent out in the coming week to the 160,000 or so people who will, in effect, choose the next british prime minister. the candidate debates have not

been without incident — the host of one brought it to an abrupt end by fainting. has it sent our panel to sleep? has europe yet woken up to the prospect of energy rationing this winter? and are the democrats slumbering whilst donald trump is back, thundering? here in the studio are jef mcallister, an american lawyer, who was london bureau chief for time magazine. the french author and journalist, agnes poirier and adam raphael, who has been commentating on british politics since the 1970s. thank you very much for being with us. adam, let's start with the british conservative leadership contest. in effect the beauty contest for britain's next prime minister. it's been 1 on 1, blue on blue in some of the attacks. how revealing or interesting has it been? well, it has rightly pointed out this only 160,000 in the electorate, we think anyway, nobody knows

what the conservative membership is. 97% are white, half live in london or the south—east, half are over 65, i know i'm even older than that, but there you go. itjust is not a representative election. there were 1a million conservative votes in the last election. you have this tiny number who actually decide not only who the party leader should be, but who the prime minister should be. so it's odd. and the other odd thing about it, is the election is almost over before it is begun. you've got liz truss, sheis so far ahead of rishi sunak that unless there is some incredible stumble along the way, which is possible but unlikely, she's going to have an even bigger majority than borisjohnson had over hunt at the last election, jeremy hunt. i find the debates rather demeaning because they are just

really contests for bidding up for votes. neither are discussing policies. neither actually acknowledging the seriousness of the situation in the country finds itself in. they arejust bidding for this 160,000 votes. rishi sunak in particular is very much on the defensive, he knows he's far, far behind. so unless there is some amazing revelation about liz truss and i'm not about to reveal it here, this is over. that is happened before with mrs may before, with her leadership election. these things tend to get decided very early and indeed the conservative membership to their credit, they vote early. yes, vote early vote off in the old joke. you know there is a tendency of candidates to pitch to the activist base and therefore we had a lot of the old tune, taxation, margaret thatcher, immigration,

not terribly surprising. do you feel any sense of confidence that these candidates whoever wins will actually realise the way you win votes in the party may not be the way you secure your premiership when you are facing the public and almost certain to face an election at most two years time? this is of course the hypothesis of the centrist voter and the need to appoint to appeal to the centre, which is the traditional way that parties do get in and retain power. it's been a little jumbled up both in the us and in the uk in the last years. the republicans in the us going very much for the base, polarisation, don't really try to make a pitch for the centre. there is a whiff of that in how johnson stayed in power, going hard right on brexit, insisting how his mps have fealty to him if they didn't vote for him they got kicked out and they do things against the constitution. and he didn't really seem to pay much of a political

price because labour was so disorganised under jeremy corbyn. now with the opposition that does seem to have a pulse, although it doesn't have that kind of inevitability that somehow tony blair had 15 years ago of a young man who knew what he was doing and had the whole system going with them, it doesn't feel like it's quite caught on there. but they'd better play for the centre because the labour party is 13 points ahead in the polls now. even though the ones who brought them, the conservatives are so used to doing that now they may not know how to appeal to the centre very easily, they will have to do it if they're --oin to win. yes. just across the channel we see a president beleaguered because he lost his parliamentary majority. whoever becomes prime minister of britain has the security of the parliamentary majority, that might be deceptive in terms of their power and

the ability to get things done. it's difficult to compare the two countries because we have a presidential system, you have a parliamentary one. to think that 160,000 or so people are choosing the next prime minister, it's interesting we are talking about primaries because this is something the french political parties did first internally but then they opened it in 2011 to all citizens. it was quite extraordinary. so you don't have to be a party member? you needed to actually say the first to do it was the left in 2011. and it was such a success. they said, ok, everybody who embrace, you need to sign something saying 'i'm embracing' basically for the 97% of the world population will be able to say yes. it was something like, do you embrace liberty, equality for eternity? and people were really excited to be asked their opinion because they were doing it for the good of their country

even if they didn't belong to the left. did it make for more electable candidates? no. laughter but now it's | interesting when you are talking about appealing to the centrist. the tory party has changed so much in the last few years. it used to be a very broad church. there is no centrist left in the tory party. there used to be the party of a realist party but now it's a party of fairy tales. tory members only want to be told fairy tales, you need to be a believer or not a realist. so rishi sunak who isjust saying look, i think would be responsible, there is inflation so therefore i will lower tax. he seen as a socialist, seen as a hard realist

and all they want is liz truss to say, i will lower taxes. but they also want something in the opposite. they want more investment in public services, lower taxes. more help with fuel bills or things like that. boris johnson called it cakeism, i believe! having your cake and eating it. it's really sad. listening to you both i think oh, i'm a bit ashamed actually that we should be having a leadership contest like this for a major party. it is actually disastrous for the conservative party to be on display like this, taking lumps out of each other in a totally unrealistic way. this is not the best of the conservative party. the conservative party is a great party, has a huge history and will revert in time to what it has been. i think a lot to blame is borisjohnson. he promoted a lot of really inferior people to his cabinet, he chopped off a lot

of the very best brains in the party. and you're quite right, it is no longer a party of the centre, it is moved to the far right. the danger for liz truss is that all her backers are on the far right or most of her backers are on the far right. she does have some centrist backers but most of them, are far right and i hope they're not reflected in the cabinet, because if they are, the party will move further and further away from the electorate as a whole. but they are not going to stay power for long, i think. there's quite a comfortable margin. look, wait for the winter when a lot of people suffer from the cold, inflation. i don't disagree. i don't think brexit is going to undo them in the end although brexit will also show its real face, even though they don't want to see it. but wait for the winter. let's talk about the winter in terms of the energy crisis. we saw this week a few measures in germany, hanover, ithink, is turning off the hot water.

if you go to use the pool and shower afterwards it's going to be a cold shower in public baths. it's a small measure but symbolic. do you think europeans, whether in the uk or the continent have yet grasped how difficult a winter in terms of energy, particularly gas prices are going to be? i think we will face it in a few months' time when we all have, by government decree, to lower all the buildings will have to do that. the schools, the swimming pools as you were saying, but for us here around this table it will be just one or 2 degrees less in our homes. but for a lot of people it be much worse than that. there are any strikes, discontent, there is inflation which in the uk is made much worse by brexit. of course we all suffer from inflation but it's worse in the uk. and recession is looming

and we're not there yet. this is how government in the late 70s here felt. that's why i think reality and the end will have the upper hand. this tory government will fall. also liz truss and boris johnson as seen from paris, berlin and brussels is the same. the mention of 1972 you live through the energy crisis in the state. yes i did, i'm that old. i wasn't going to say that. as a mature and experienced journalist and observer, other any lessons at all for most britons? it was a pretty horrible one for americans and jimmy carter who left soon afterwards. and joe biden is facing more. he's desperately trying to find of keeping the price of fuel for cars and other vehicles down. it's a lot more complicated. it is. it's inflation, it's all the supply chain

problems, it's ukraine. there are lots of headwinds in the economy. interestingly, the average price of gasoline has gone down, 4 cents a gallon in the last month. all the republicans talking about how this is the beginning of the end for him. they have something else to talk about now. we saw this in the carter era with higher energy prices leading to stagflation, high interest rates i remember my wife's grandfather had a certificate of deposit that paid him 18% because that was what you can get in the bank for interest rate in those days. but you had to pay 30% for a mortgage. the whole thing was a mess and itjust took the steam out ofjimmy carter. 0n the other hand, it was the first big effort to get conservation and alternative energy sources into the infrastructure system. it had long—term positive consequences but i think joe biden of course has to be worried. joe mentioned a west virginia

senator who allowed a big bill joe manchin, a west virginia senator, allowed a big bill to go through, stimulus bill, health care, energy which was a surprise. he has been a no man for the last two years. yes, all this talk that democrats can't do anything, are all lost. but, actually, their numbers are getting better in the polls. the republicans have picked some very strange senate candidates who are trump type people. it may not be as awful for biden yet. it could be if everybody gets cold and miserable in the wintertime. there is some very striking things about this when jeff talks about energy conservation. germany has made peculiar decisions of the last two years. for the gas prom was suddenly going to do maintenance work on ignored stream one, the surviving gas line which is mysteriously reduced 20% of what it would normally be put

germans are 50% reliant on gas from russia. pontiff said his age and frailty had led his decision. they banned fracking under the local government. they have kinda put themselves in the worst possible position. i suppose they have. ijust come back to britain all the time on this because this autumn people are going to be faced by really horrendous price increases in energy, and even worse thanjanuary, another price cabarets, so at that stage the government is going to have to intervene in a major way, and i think agnes is quite right. most people can survive perfectly well. 80% of the population can survive pretty well, but about 20% cannot and will actually seriously either short of food or be cold and really dangerous conditions, so any government, right, left, centre, anything, will have to intervene at that

point. and i don't think people realise quite the degree of intervention that is going to be necessary, and the degree of utilisation, because actually what is going to have to happen is 80% or perhaps suffering a bit, they are always going to be borderline on these things, they will have to support the 20%, and they are totally ill—prepared for that at the moment. i really didn't answer your question because i wasn't really capable of doing so. and it is perfectly fine, i'll put it to an hour. it is interesting to see how different countries react, and also — different countries react, and also the _ different countries react, and also the picture in europe is so diverse, that's why, you know. _ so diverse, that's why, you know, there was this agreement at least — know, there was this agreement at least - — know, there was this agreement at least - i— know, there was this agreement at least — i mean, it is not mandated, compulsory, this 15%, but if— mandated, compulsory, this 15%, but if you — mandated, compulsory, this 15%, but if you look at austria, it is dependent 100% on russian gas, _ is dependent 100% on russian gas, and — is dependent 100% on russian gas, and spain none at all, so of course _ gas, and spain none at all, so of course there will be national opt outs, but it is interesting to see for instance, norway's pass, back instance, norway's pass, back in december orjanuary in in decemberorjanuary in france_ in decemberorjanuary in france to— in december orjanuary in france to energy prices by 2%

for households, not for companies, so they will pay the full price. — companies, so they will pay the full price, and they will be a package... government sought to help people, and also france has nationalised or is about to nationalise india. in_ nationalise india. in order to help through this crises, all of the utilities, a lot of it in the uk the utilities going under, and effectively the government having to step in and support the companies and move people across to other suppliers, to big suppliers. jeff, when you look at the situation, i mean, russia is sitting pretty isn't it at the moment? 0il russia is sitting pretty isn't it at the moment? oil is a problem for it, it can't afford to not be oil, finding other customers for oil, but gas only represents, what, 2% of its gdp? it can turn off all the gas ever wants to, and europe will pay a hefty price. i mean, it has done it with a number of european countries, did it on a

number of occasions with ukraine, didn't it? the solution for this for europe _ the solution for this for europe needs - the solution for this for europe needs to - the solution for this for europe needs to take . the solution for this for- europe needs to take longer than — europe needs to take longer than the _ europe needs to take longer than the amount _ europe needs to take longer than the amount of- europe needs to take longer than the amount of time - than the amount of time available _ than the amount of time available to— than the amount of time available to get - than the amount of time available to get to - than the amount of time available to get to the l than the amount of time - available to get to the winter to change _ available to get to the winter to change energy _ available to get to the winter . to change energy infrastructure to change energy infrastructure to save — to change energy infrastructure to save my— to change energy infrastructure to save my natural— to change energy infrastructure to save my natural gas, - to change energy infrastructure to save my natural gas, have . to change energy infrastructure to save my natural gas, have a | to save my natural gas, have a chipped — to save my natural gas, have a chipped in. _ to save my natural gas, have a chipped in. you _ to save my natural gas, have a chipped in, you need— to save my natural gas, have a chipped in, you need to - to save my natural gas, have a chipped in, you need to build i chipped in, you need to build terminals, _ chipped in, you need to build terminals, have _ chipped in, you need to build terminals, have more - chipped in, you need to build terminals, have more ships. i chipped in, you need to build. terminals, have more ships. it is there — terminals, have more ships. it is there you _ terminals, have more ships. it is there. you can— terminals, have more ships. it is there. you can do— terminals, have more ships. it is there. you can do more - is there. you can do more windniitis, _ is there. you can do more windmills, you _ is there. you can do more windmills, you can - is there. you can do more windmills, you can do - is there. you can do more| windmills, you can do lots is there. you can do more i windmills, you can do lots of things. — windmills, you can do lots of things. ttut— windmills, you can do lots of things, but that _ windmills, you can do lots of things, but that will - windmills, you can do lots of things, but that will take - windmills, you can do lots ofl things, but that will take two, three. — things, but that will take two, three. four— things, but that will take two, three, four years— things, but that will take two, three, four years to _ things, but that will take two, three, four years to get - things, but that will take two, j three, four years to get done, so i _ three, four years to get done, so i think— three, four years to get done, so i think this _ three, four years to get done, so i think this is _ three, four years to get done, so i think this is prudent's- so i think this is prudent's game _ so i think this is prudent's game in _ so i think this is prudent's game in the _ so i think this is prudent's game. in the meantime, i so i think this is prudent's. game. in the meantime, the money— game. in the meantime, the money he _ game. in the meantime, the money he is _ game. in the meantime, the money he is getting - game. in the meantime, the money he is getting for- game. in the meantime, the money he is getting for the i game. in the meantime, the i money he is getting for the oil he is _ money he is getting for the oil he is setting _ money he is getting for the oil he is selling is— money he is getting for the oil he is selling isjust _ money he is getting for the oil he is selling isjust as- money he is getting for the oil he is selling isjust as much. he is selling isjust as much as what— he is selling isjust as much as what he _ he is selling isjust as much as what he was _ he is selling isjust as much as what he was getting - he is selling isjust as much. as what he was getting before, even _ as what he was getting before, even though— as what he was getting before, even though they _ as what he was getting before, even though they were - as what he was getting before, i even though they were sanctions because — even though they were sanctions because the _ even though they were sanctions because the price _ even though they were sanctions because the price has _ even though they were sanctions because the price has gone - even though they were sanctions because the price has gone up, i because the price has gone up, so he _ because the price has gone up, so he is — because the price has gone up, so he is able _ because the price has gone up, so he is able to— because the price has gone up, so he is able to shield - because the price has gone up, so he is able to shield the - so he is able to shield the economy— so he is able to shield the economy from _ so he is able to shield the economy from some - so he is able to shield the economy from some of i so he is able to shield the i economy from some of the effects— economy from some of the effects of— economy from some of the effects of sanctions. - economy from some of the effects of sanctions. it - effects of sanctions. it doesn't _ effects of sanctions. it doesn't mean - effects of sanctions. it doesn't mean it- effects of sanctions. it doesn't mean it is- effects of sanctions. it doesn't mean it is oili effects of sanctions. it. doesn't mean it is oil rosy effects of sanctions. it - doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him, _ doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him. of— doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him. of course _ doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him, of course. a _ doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him, of course. a lot- doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him, of course. a lot of- doesn't mean it is oil rosy for him, of course. a lot of the l him, of course. a lot of the tax — him, of course. a lot of the tax sanctions _ him, of course. a lot of the tax sanctions are _ him, of course. a lot of thei tax sanctions are apparently affecting _ tax sanctions are apparently affecting industrial- tax sanctions are apparently i affecting industrial production and weapons _ affecting industrial production and weapons production - affecting industrial production and weapons production and i and weapons production and particuian _ and weapons production and particular. they— and weapons production and particular. they can't - and weapons production and particular. they can't get - particular. they can't get their— particular. they can't get theiriobs_ particular. they can't get theirjobs to _ particular. they can't get theirjobs to do - particular. they can't get theirjobs to do that - particular. they can't get theirjobs to do that than particular. they can't get i theirjobs to do that than to stop— theirjobs to do that than to stop that _ theirjobs to do that than to stop that they— theirjobs to do that than to stop that they need - theirjobs to do that than to stop that they need them . theirjobs to do that than to| stop that they need them to theirjobs to do that than to - stop that they need them to do to fight— stop that they need them to do to fight effectively. _ stop that they need them to do to fight effectively. i _ to fight effectively. i think he figures, _ to fight effectively. i think he figures, wait _ to fight effectively. i think he figures, wait long - to fight effectively. i think-

he figures, wait long enough, you know. _ he figures, wait long enough, you know, maybe _ he figures, wait long enough, you know, maybe it _ he figures, wait long enough, you know, maybe it will- he figures, wait long enough, | you know, maybe it will cause disruption _ you know, maybe it will cause disruption in _ you know, maybe it will cause disruption in germany, - you know, maybe it will causej disruption in germany, france and england _ disruption in germany, france and england and _ disruption in germany, france and england and america, - disruption in germany, francei and england and america, may trunrp — and england and america, may trunrp comes— and england and america, may trump comes back— and england and america, may trump comes back again, - and england and america, may trump comes back again, his l trump comes back again, his trody— trump comes back again, his body in — trump comes back again, his body in the _ trump comes back again, his body in the white _ trump comes back again, his body in the white house, - body in the white house, everybody _ body in the white house, everybody will _ body in the white house, everybody will be - body in the white house, everybody will be able i body in the white house, everybody will be able to| body in the white house, - everybody will be able to turn off the — everybody will be able to turn off the pressure. _ everybody will be able to turn off the pressure. i— everybody will be able to turn off the pressure. ithink- everybody will be able to turn off the pressure. i think it - off the pressure. i think it will— off the pressure. i think it will be _ off the pressure. i think it will be more _ off the pressure. i think it will be more difficult - off the pressure. i think it will be more difficult for. off the pressure. i think it. will be more difficult for him that— will be more difficult for him that he — will be more difficult for him that he suddenly— will be more difficult for him that he suddenly thought - will be more difficult for him that he suddenly thought he| will be more difficult for him - that he suddenly thought he was getting _ that he suddenly thought he was getting into _ that he suddenly thought he was getting into when _ that he suddenly thought he was getting into when he _ that he suddenly thought he was getting into when he got - getting into when he got started _ getting into when he got started in— getting into when he got started in ukraine. - started in ukraine. i started in ukraine. iam— started in ukraine. i am glad - started in ukraine. i am glad you - started in ukraine. - i am glad you mentioned started in ukraine. _ i am glad you mentioned ukraine because i was struck by a quote from the german foreign minister who said — asked, whatever gas is cut off this winter customer she said, we won't be able to provide any support for ukraine at all because we will be busy with popular uprising. well, that's the thing. it's going _ well, that's the thing. it's going to _ well, that's the thing. it's going to test and challenge european unity on ukraine. you could _ european unity on ukraine. you could argue it is two different things — could argue it is two different things. we need to send, you know. — things. we need to send, you know, weapons and to make sure that ukraine is a sort of fast—track to become a member of the _ fast—track to become a member of the european union. but, look— of the european union. but, look at _ of the european union. but,

look at italy. mario draghi is going and he was really instrumental in convincing business leaders in italy to back— business leaders in italy to back sanctions, because italy — itaiy's— italy's political class has crosstalk. yes, yes, and so imagine also in france, as you said, president macron doesn't have the support of the majority national assembly, and it has started between a very phar lap, and they have a lot of common to be lenient on retre. so if politics change, in berlin, _ so if politics change, in berlin, at the german chancellor is trying to find his marks. it mario draghi goes. _ his marks. it mario draghi goes, you know, he is quite a lot _ goes, you know, he is quite a lot he — goes, you know, he is quite a lot he said _ goes, you know, he is quite a lot. he said something interesting. it was during a trip — interesting. it was during a trip in _ interesting. it was during a trip in africa in the last few days— trip in africa in the last few

days he _ trip in africa in the last few days he said that putin was threatening a new world war, a hybrid — threatening a new world war, a hybrid world war made of weaponising food and energy, and he — weaponising food and energy, and he talked about an imperialistic continental war. this— imperialistic continental war. this is— imperialistic continental war. this is prudent? this is prudent? this is prudent? this is mario on putin. an _ this is mario on putin. an popularity for supporting ukraine, _ an popularity for supporting ukraine, do you think it will be tested by this?— ukraine, do you think it will be tested by this? people will be tested by this? people will be thinking. _ be tested by this? people will be thinking, our _ be tested by this? people will be thinking, our energy - be tested by this? people will be thinking, our energy is - be tested by this? people will. be thinking, our energy is more expensive because of the sanctions, so if we take pressure off russia our bills will drop? no, that is a simplistic argument, if you look at what has been said. i think she recognised thatjohnson did very well by the support of ukraine, and is deeply embedded there, so i can't really see any future conservative leader indulging that, but the rhetoric you will always be pro ukranian, and as for the thing

about the gas, in the end it is about the gas, in the end it is a world prize that decides this, it isn't as though some country is cut off altogether. everyone will be paying a world price, and the world price dictates huge leaps, astronomical sums have been paid on gas, but it isn't really a cut—off point, it is just a matter of how much you're willing to pay for gas supply. and delivery in the winter i think is currently running at seven times the long—term trend, which is pretty frightening. let's move on to final thing. frightening. let's move on to finalthing. donald frightening. let's move on to final thing. donald trump back in washington this week, and i wonder what is the dilemma for the us government about how it handles donald trump? is it contemplating the possibility of charging him in some way for his alleged involvement in the january 6th ride last year? the newspapers are well informed _ the newspapers are well informed and _ the newspapers are well informed and say - the newspapers are well informed and say that i the newspapers are welll informed and say that the justice _ informed and say that the justice department- informed and say that the justice department is- informed and say that the - justice department is actually investigating _ justice department is actually investigating him _ justice department is actually investigating him as- justice department is actually investigating him as well- justice department is actually investigating him as well as l investigating him as well as the underlings _ investigating him as well as the underlings in _ investigating him as well as the underlings in the - investigating him as well asl

the underlings in the january riots, — the underlings in the january riots, and _ the underlings in the january riots, and i— the underlings in the january riots, and i have _ the underlings in the january riots, and i have been - the underlings in the january riots, and i have been an- riots, and i have been an advocate _ riots, and i have been an advocate of _ riots, and i have been an advocate of the - riots, and i have been an- advocate of the congressional hearings _ advocate of the congressional hearings on _ advocate of the congressional hearings on the _ advocate of the congressional hearings on the subject, - advocate of the congressional hearings on the subject, i- advocate of the congressional. hearings on the subject, i have to say, — hearings on the subject, i have to say, and _ hearings on the subject, i have to say, and when— hearings on the subject, i have to say, and when you - hearings on the subject, i have to say, and when you look - hearings on the subject, i have to say, and when you look at l to say, and when you look at them, — to say, and when you look at them, and _ to say, and when you look at them, and they— to say, and when you look at them, and they say- to say, and when you look at them, and they say of- to say, and when you look at| them, and they say of course that— them, and they say of course that there _ them, and they say of course that there are _ them, and they say of course that there are some - them, and they say of course l that there are some procedural difficulties— that there are some procedural difficulties but— that there are some procedural difficulties but it _ that there are some procedural difficulties but it is _ that there are some procedural difficulties but it is an- difficulties but it is an extremely— difficulties but it is an extremely careful- difficulties but it is an- extremely careful exploration of the — extremely careful exploration of the evidence, _ extremely careful exploration of the evidence, very - extremely careful exploration of the evidence, very lovingly and carefully _ of the evidence, very lovingly and carefully laid _ of the evidence, very lovingly and carefully laid out, - of the evidence, very lovingly and carefully laid out, and . and carefully laid out, and told — and carefully laid out, and told mostiy— and carefully laid out, and told mostly by— and carefully laid out, andl told mostly by republicans and carefully laid out, and - told mostly by republicans and donald — told mostly by republicans and donald trump's _ told mostly by republicans and donald trump's inner- told mostly by republicans and donald trump's inner circle. i donald trump's inner circle. and — donald trump's inner circle. and there _ donald trump's inner circle. and there is _ donald trump's inner circle. and there is no _ donald trump's inner circle. and there is no doubt - donald trump's inner circle. and there is no doubt that. donald trump's inner circle. i and there is no doubt that he knew— and there is no doubt that he knew that _ and there is no doubt that he knew that he _ and there is no doubt that he knew that he did _ and there is no doubt that he knew that he did not- and there is no doubt that he i knew that he did not re—elected and he — knew that he did not re—elected and he was _ knew that he did not re—elected and he was determined - knew that he did not re—elected and he was determined to - knew that he did not re—elected and he was determined to holdl and he was determined to hold onto— and he was determined to hold onto power. _ and he was determined to hold onto power, and _ and he was determined to hold onto power, and he _ and he was determined to hold onto power, and he used - and he was determined to hold onto power, and he used all. onto power, and he used all sorts— onto power, and he used all sorts of— onto power, and he used all sorts of chicanery _ onto power, and he used all sorts of chicanery to - onto power, and he used all sorts of chicanery to do - onto power, and he used all sorts of chicanery to do it, i sorts of chicanery to do it, and — sorts of chicanery to do it, and that— sorts of chicanery to do it, and that is— sorts of chicanery to do it, and that is addition, - sorts of chicanery to do it, and that is addition, it - sorts of chicanery to do it, and that is addition, it is l sorts of chicanery to do it, and that is addition, it is a criminal— and that is addition, it is a criminalact, _ and that is addition, it is a criminalact, he— and that is addition, it is a criminal act, he did - and that is addition, it is a criminal act, he did try- and that is addition, it is a criminal act, he did try to| criminal act, he did try to interfere _ criminal act, he did try to interfere with— criminal act, he did try to interfere with the - interfere with the congressional- interfere with the - congressional session by haiving _ congressional session by haiving the _ congressional session by halving the writers - congressional session by halving the writers go i congressional session by - halving the writers go there, knowing _ halving the writers go there, knowing that _ halving the writers go there, knowing that he _ halving the writers go there, knowing that he was - halving the writers go there, j knowing that he was sending them — knowing that he was sending them to— knowing that he was sending them to washington, - knowing that he was sending them to washington, saying | knowing that he was sending - them to washington, saying that he was _ them to washington, saying that he was going _ them to washington, saying that he was going with _ them to washington, saying that he was going with them, - them to washington, saying that he was going with them, not - he was going with them, not doing — he was going with them, not doing anything _ he was going with them, not doing anything when - he was going with them, not doing anything when mike i he was going with them, not - doing anything when mike pence couid _ doing anything when mike pence could have — doing anything when mike pence could have gotten _ doing anything when mike pence could have gotten killed. - doing anything when mike pence could have gotten killed. lots. could have gotten killed. lots of peopie _ could have gotten killed. lots of people could _ could have gotten killed. lots of people could have - could have gotten killed. lots of people could have been. of people could have been killed _ of people could have been killed it _ of people could have been killed. it was _ of people could have been killed. it was incredibly. killed. it was incredibly

dangerous. _ killed. it was incredibly dangerous. this- killed. it was incredibly dangerous. this is- killed. it was incredibly dangerous. this is thel killed. it was incredibly- dangerous. this is the dilemma of course — dangerous. this is the dilemma of course it— dangerous. this is the dilemma of course. it has _ dangerous. this is the dilemma of course. it has to _ dangerous. this is the dilemma of course. it has to be - dangerous. this is the dilemma of course. it has to be a - of course. it has to be a political _ of course. it has to be a political decision. - of course. it has to be a political decision. you l of course. it has to be a . political decision. you can't charge _ political decision. you can't charge crime _ political decision. you can't charge crime of— political decision. you can't charge crime of the - political decision. you can't charge crime of the former| charge crime of the former sitting _ charge crime of the former sitting president— charge crime of the former sitting president when - charge crime of the former sitting president when you | charge crime of the former. sitting president when you are the current— sitting president when you are the current sitting _ sitting president when you are the current sitting president, i the current sitting president, he hits— the current sitting president, he hits the _ the current sitting president, he hits the one _ the current sitting president, he hits the one who - the current sitting president, he hits the one who has- the current sitting president, he hits the one who has to l the current sitting president, - he hits the one who has to make the decision _ he hits the one who has to make the decision. going _ he hits the one who has to make the decision. going into - he hits the one who has to make the decision. going into an- the decision. going into an election _ the decision. going into an election. of— the decision. going into an election. of course - the decision. going into an election. of course it - the decision. going into an election. of course it is- election. of course it is political! _ election. of course it is political! but— election. of course it is political! but you - election. of course it is political! but you can'tl election. of course it is. political! but you can't do election. of course it is- political! but you can't do it, also — political! but you can't do it, also aviators _ political! but you can't do it, also aviators just _ political! but you can't do it, also aviators just going - political! but you can't do it, also aviators just going to i political! but you can't do it, i also aviators just going to be, you know. _ also aviators just going to be, you know. i— also aviators just going to be, you know, ithrow_ also aviators just going to be, you know, i throw away, - also aviators just going to be, you know, ithrow away, "i i also aviators just going to be, | you know, i throw away, "i am mad _ you know, i throw away, "i am mad at— you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you. _ you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you. i— you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you, i am _ you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you, i am going - you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you, i am going to - you know, i throw away, "i am mad at you, i am going to tryl mad at you, i am going to try and— mad at you, i am going to try and throw— mad at you, i am going to try and throw some _ mad at you, i am going to try and throw some charges," i mad at you, i am going to try. and throw some charges," which we have — and throw some charges," which we have seen— and throw some charges," which we have seen other— and throw some charges," which we have seen other countries . we have seen other countries try a — we have seen other countries try a do— we have seen other countries try a do against _ we have seen other countries try a do against former - try a do against former ieaders _ try a do against former ieaders i— try a do against former leaders. ithink- try a do against former leaders. i think biden. try a do against former - leaders. i think biden doesn't like the — leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, _ leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, he _ leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, he was - leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, he was to - leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, he was to be i leaders. i think biden doesn't like the stuff, he was to be a| like the stuff, he was to be a forward—looking _ like the stuff, he was to be a forward—looking moderate . like the stuff, he was to be a i forward—looking moderate and his attorney—general, - forward—looking moderate and his attorney—general, the - his attorney—general, the former— his attorney—general, the former supreme - his attorney—general, the former supreme court - his attorney—general, the - former supreme court nominee is very moderate, _ former supreme court nominee is very moderate, very _ former supreme court nominee is very moderate, very by _ former supreme court nominee is very moderate, very by the - former supreme court nominee is very moderate, very by the book. very moderate, very by the book justice _ very moderate, very by the book justice department— very moderate, very by the book justice department life - very moderate, very by the book justice department life are, - justice department life are, this is— justice department life are, this is one _ justice department life are, this is one of— justice department life are, this is one of the _ justice department life are, this is one of the most - this is one of the most agonising _ this is one of the most agonising decisions . this is one of the most i agonising decisions they this is one of the most - agonising decisions they could possibly— agonising decisions they could possibly take _ agonising decisions they could possibly take and _ agonising decisions they could possibly take and they- agonising decisions they could possibly take and they are - possibly take and they are going _ possibly take and they are going to _ possibly take and they are going to have _ possibly take and they are going to have to _ possibly take and they are going to have to take - possibly take and they are going to have to take a . possibly take and they are i going to have to take a damn possibly take and they are - going to have to take a damn a lot of— going to have to take a damn a lot of evidence _ going to have to take a damn a lot of evidence together- going to have to take a damn a lot of evidence together so - lot of evidence together so no-one _ lot of evidence together so no-one can_ lot of evidence together so no—one can disagree - lot of evidence together so no—one can disagree with i lot of evidence together so i no—one can disagree with that except— no—one can disagree with that except for— no—one can disagree with that except for the _ no—one can disagree with that except for the core _ no—one can disagree with that| except for the core supporters of trump _ except for the core supporters of trump who _ except for the core supporters of trump who will— except for the core supporters of trump who will always - of trump who will always disagree _ of trump who will always disagree with— of trump who will always disagree with it. - disagree with it. and _ disagree with it. and gerald - disagree with it. and gerald fordi disagree with it. - and gerald ford faced this dilemma, although i did a lot

of damage he pardoned richard nixon, his immediate predecessor from the same party and made the distinction between the man and the office, in other words, whatever he might not have liked about the matter what you done it was more important to protect the credibility of the office. in essence, the dilemma is the same now, isn't it? i supposed to some extent it is, on the other hand there is a rule of law and if someone has committed high crimes and misdemeanours, as trump appears to have done, and the evidence is really likely to happen adding to this congressional hearing, the evidence is overwhelming that he has committed criminal acts. now, whether a judge and jury will find out that he is guilty of the law, the evidence is there, sufficient to charge him. and i suppose coming the tradition, we don't enter into judicial decisions, i think you should be charged in the interest of law—abiding country, america is a country of laws and that is why he should be charged, and i

realise how difficult a decision it is for an american president to do but i think the rule of law should take precedence. less than one minute left. the risk is i suppose that if he were to win back the case, it could give him even more strength in his campaign? true, but the evidence seems to be devastating, and true, but the evidence seems to be devastating, an- be devastating, and indistinct speech i was — be devastating, and indistinct speech i was fascinated - be devastating, and indistinct speech i was fascinated by - be devastating, and indistinct speech i was fascinated by liz. speech i was fascinated by liz cheney. devise jackalass two yes, daughter of a former politician. and having dozens of republicans making the case against — republicans making the case against a republican, so it means— against a republican, so it means it _ against a republican, so it means it is not democrats against _ means it is not democrats against republicans. ten _ against republicans. ten seconds, will biden be the democratic candidate? will trump be the republican candidate? _ will trump be the republican candidate? i— will trump be the republican candidate? i am _ will trump be the republican candidate? i am beginning i will trump be the republican candidate? i am beginning toj candidate? i am beginning to think— candidate? i am beginning to think no— candidate? i am beginning to think no on— candidate? i am beginning to think no on trump— candidate? i am beginning to think no on trump because . think no on trump because cultinga _ think no on trump because cullinga showing _ think no on trump because cullinga showing people i think no on trump because i cullinga showing people are getting _ cullinga showing people are

getting tired _ cullinga showing people are getting tired of— cullinga showing people are getting tired of him. - cullinga showing people are getting tired of him. a - cullinga showing people are getting tired of him. a lot. cullinga showing people are| getting tired of him. a lot of democrats _ getting tired of him. a lot of democrats are _ getting tired of him. a lot of democrats are tired - getting tired of him. a lot of democrats are tired of - getting tired of him. a lot of| democrats are tired of biden but i — democrats are tired of biden but i don't _ democrats are tired of biden but i don't think— democrats are tired of biden but i don't think he - democrats are tired of biden but i don't think he is- democrats are tired of biden but i don't think he is going i but i don't think he is going anywhere _ anywhere. thank - anywhere. thank you | anywhere. i thank you all anywhere. - thank you all very anywhere. — thank you all very much. more dateline same time next week. hello there. saturday was a warm and humid day for many of us. in places, we got to see some sunshine. in other places, the humidity gave rise to a lot of cloud, mist and murk and some outbreaks of rain, and there's more cloud and rain in the forecast for sunday across some parts of the uk. the sunniest conditions will be up to the north. the earlier satellite picture shows this pipeline of cloud, bringing some outbreaks of rain. we're starting sunday on a pretty soggy note across parts of wales, northern england, the north midlands, eastern england too. very little rain getting down into the south,

but quite a cloudy, murky start to the day here. much of the rain will tend to peter out. cool and fresh here — 16 for aberdeen, 18 degrees from belfast. still quite warm down towards the south and the south—east. warm in the south, cool and fresh note for the north, just seven degrees for example in the centre of glasgow. through the centre of glasgow. through the week ahead, oppressive rain pushing in from the west, not much getting into the south, turning cooler by the end of the week.

welcome to bbc news — i'm gareth barlow. our top stories: a major disaster is declared in the us state of kentucky, after floods cause at least 25 deaths. there is no words. it isjust hard to imagine. there is nothing, really, that you can do, but i am just glad we got out. back in isolation — president biden tests positive for covid—i9 for the second time in nine days. pope francis says health problems are likely to force him to travel less frequently and he may even have to retire. translation: with all honesty, it's not a catastrophe, _ you can change your pope, it's not a problem. one lucky ticket—holder in illinois wins almost