this is bbc news. the latest news headlines will follow this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. london prides itself on being a culture capital. this city buzzes with creativity. now artistic trends come and go, of course, but my guest today has retained his status as the godfather of pop art for some six decades. sir peter blake came to fame in the 1960s. he is still painting today.

so what keeps his creativity alive? sir peter blake, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. are you still creating, painting, doing the collage every day? do you still get that urge? i do. i get quite a lot of pain at the moment. i've got a sore neck, which sometimes begins to hurt and i have to stop, but i work every day. i haven't worked today yet, but i looked at what i'm working on. let me take you right back, because i'm always interested with artists to figure out what impelled them to create.

you had a tough childhood in some ways. you were a war child. yeah. you spent years away from home and family, in environments where there wasn't actually much to play with. it was sometimes quite lonely, and you had to use your imagination. do you think that was important in your development? it probably was, and i've never really thought about that. it probably was, but at the time it wasn't part of my plan. i mean, i had no intention or thought about being an artist. and the period you describe, i was seven when the second world war started. i was evacuated for about three years to a little village in essex. and then, if you were evacuated, you took your examinations for further

education, for where you were, where you came from. so i took the kent examinations, but took them by myself in essex, and failed, as it happens. i mean, i didn't go to the grammar school, but i did get into the technical school. and at the technical school the man interviewing me said, if you're interested in art, the art school in gravesend is also part of the technical school, you could go to art school. and it was as simple as that. you clearly had a flair for the visual arts and for design. you ended up going to one of the uk's leading art colleges. do you think that artistic talent is simply found, or is it made by great teaching as well? it's found — if you've got

good teachers, that's incredibly important — and it is inherent. i mean, i'm sure both my mum and dad... my mum would definitely have gone into fashion if she'd been a young woman now, and i know she would have done something artistic, but didn't have the chance. and my dad, it didn't ever come up, but he drew beautiful little drawings for us children, of trains and the things he was interested in. so i think they would have. they had the talent and would have become artists. what inspired you as a young artist, it seems, was the pop culture that was emerging in the late �*50s and the 1960s all around you. i'm thinking particularly of pop music, but also of television, of fashion. this seemed to turn you on. it was an incredible moment

because, from the age of seven to the age of 13, one had lived with this kind of idea that you could be invaded at any moment, or bombed at any moment, and the fear of that, and this terrible little man adolf hitler was there somewhere waiting to attack you. suddenly, that stopped, which was extraordinary. i want to get you to the 1960s, a period when you really made your name as an artist. and it seems you were seduced, in a way, by the bright lights that came with the new age of television, of pop music, of showbiz. what was it about this period, the 1960s, that really fired you up as an artist? i think because i was a working class youth, particularly when i was at gravesend, the other half of my life when i wasn't at art school would be going to professional

wrestling with my mother and my aunt, going to speedway. i supported west ham speedway. football, i went to charlton athletic ground at the end of the �*40s. would you describe yourself as a working class lad? 0h, absolutely. totally, yeah. i mean, your interests were just the interests of ordinary people? yeah, iwas... my life wouldn't have been about culture at all. but what intrigues me is that you saw the potential for turning your passions and your interests, which were, you know, ordinary folks�* passions and interests, turning them into art. and on these walls, you know, we've got the subjects that really turned you on, like elvis presley, like wrestling, with this wonderful piece behind you, in a sense, a sort of homage to the stars of the professional wrestling circuit. what made you think

that it was ok to turn these popular subjects into art? well, it wasn't at the time. it wasn't 0k. and that's really how i became one of the first people to do pop art, because... what happened at the royal college was the first year you had to spend in the life room, it was compulsory. you had to draw from the figure or paint from the figure. then you could do what you wanted. so suddenly, i've already been an art student for a year, a painting student. so suddenly, the world was before me. and what i did was i took my life as my subject matter. so it was autobiographical. so it included a big

interest in popular music, sergeant pepper's lonely hearts club, 1967 — perhaps the most iconic record album cover of all time. it was an extraordinary piece,

because it involved you, your then wife jan, working actually very closely with the fab four, with the beatles themselves, to get this image right. yeah. how difficult was it to get it right? along the way, there were problems and there were difficulties, but it wasn't difficult to make it. but we were inventing what we were doing. i mean, people often think it's a collage, a small collage, and it was life—sized and built in the studio. so all the little heads were life—size, cut out and hand—tinted like a photographer. peter, how did you choose the characters behind the beatles themselves? because there's such a mix of people, you know, very famous people, some not so famous. well, i think various people claim they did various parts of it. my main claim is that

i had this idea that, by working the way we were, this crowd who had gathered around this fictitious band of sergeant pepper could be anybody. i mean, literally anybody that one could say a name to could be there. so in doing that, i made a list, jan made a list, robert fraser a the list, and the beatles each made a list. is it true thatjohn lennon wanted adolf hitler to be in the background? as a joke. he never... we did actually make him, and on some of the outtakes, there is this little figure of hitler. the ones that didn't make it were hitler, jesus... mahatma gandhi. it captures something about the late �*60ss, doesn't it? that image is sort of surreal, is full of playfulness,

of fantasy, but it's also got a sort of innocence to it as well, a nostalgia. it was a moment when... i think the beatles possibly peaked around that time anyway. and some of their greatest songs are on sergeant pepper. i mean, i think the song sergeant pepper's lonely hearts club band as a song is a great anthem. i mean, when i hear it now, it's a great... it's not used enough as an anthem. and here we sit talking about it, talking about your work on that album cover. and you've done so much else over six prolific decades of art, and yet so many people will always say, oh yeah, peter blake, the man who gave us the sergeant pepper's lonely hearts club album. you've described that as something of an albatross around your neck. i'm sure you can understand that. well, it almost suggests that

you suggest you wish you hadn't done it. no, i don't wish i hadn't done it. but i'm always i'm always waiting for the question to come up. so it is there. i mean, albatross isn't that bad. i mean, it'sjust there as a slight nuisance. but it's interesting that sitting in front of these pictures here is also the live aid poster. yes. and also the other, the artwork for do they know it's christmas, which is this very modest little picture which we can pick up on, that, i think, is the biggest selling record ever. i think — i'm not sure about that. the pictures that surround us here are fascinating, not least because of the eclectic subject matter. and you did many portraits in your time. one which intrigues me, and which is directly facing us there, is of queen elizabeth.

yeah. now, you didn't do a sitting with herfor that? i've done three of the queen now, and none of them have been official. i know you are a very great royalist. as you've said, you're a working class kid who reached the top of the art world and you became, i think, quite familiar with the royals. you met, ithink, prince charles several times. i guess what i'm getting to is whether you've become a bit of an insider? you began by perhaps being seen as something of a rebel, launching a movement in the late �*50s and �*60s in the art world in britain, and you've ended up being a bit of an establishment figure. yeah, that's ok. i think to be part of an establishment is probably good. it's used as an insult to be establishment. i don't think it is an insult.

you know, if there is an establishment and you work within it, it's good to be a member of it. let me ask you about the critics, because every artist, i guess, has to deal with reviews, with criticism. you have, ithink, found it difficult over the years to handle some of the criticism. and i wonder whether you feel there's a snobbery in the art world, and that pop art was never, or at least in its origins, was never taken seriously by some of those high—minded critics. yeah, and i think me particularly, because i think what some of the critics couldn't deal with was that i would do a record cover. and so, in a way, it's my fault. they felt i wasn't a pure enough painter. which is true, which is right. what is a pure enough painter?

i mean, as you've said, you had the training. i always used frank auerbach as an example, who's an absolute... he was in the year before me at the royal college, and who i would say was a friend. and he goes to work every day, he looks like an artist, he's got a proper studio with a lot of paint on the floor. he's a proper artist. i'm not, and i don't claim to be. i'm not an artist in that sense. i mean, i do work every day. i can't believe you're telling me you're not a proper artist. i'm a different artist. and what they didn't like about me was that difference. those critics didn't, couldn't understand why i would be common and vulgar enough to do a record cover. that was their problem. there were critics like brian sewell... 0h, brian sewell was a separate case.

he was a vicious, nasty man. i mean, i know he's dead, but he was vicious. and he picked on hockney, kitaj and myself to attack. so if he was reviewing somebody else�*s show, at the end, he would say something like — but it's not as bad as kitaj. something like that. and i... you thought that wasn't fair? he just was a nasty man. well, what about the charge that...? i did once do an interview with him, he was absolutely charming, and we got on very well. and there was a level where you could almost say we were friends. but within the profession of being an art critic, he was a vicious art critic. what about the charge sometimes laid against you that there's a sentimentality in your work? you know, you clearly use images from your youth, from childhood.

but you're basically projecting a view of the world that is full of emotion, and some would say too easy emotion. how do you feel about that charge of sentimentality? you've almost fallen into a kind of trap, which i didn't say it, but is there — that sentimentality is a very valid subject for art. always has been. and again, it used to be used against me as an insult, that my work was sentimental and i shouldn't be doing it. i mean, there have always been pictures of pretty children, of kittens and puppies and things. and my response to that attack was — sentimentality is a valid and important subject for painting. we've talked about your background and you're very

proud of your working—class background. i just wonder, if you think about the britain of today, whether you worry that it would be harder today to make it as an artist than it was when you started out? 0h, much harder. i mean, if i'd been a year older and missed the boat, as it were, it would have been harderfor me. if i'd been younger, a couple of years earlier, it would have been harder. but i hit that momentjust at the end of the war when grants were given. all my education was done on grants at gravesend and the royal college. and i guess my point is that those kinds of grants and the commitment to getting ordinary kids exposed to art — that is being cut today. which is shocking.

i mean, i almost take that for granted that it's shocking, so i don't say it, but of course, it's awful. and the other thing i've said a couple of times over the years is, really, that all a country or a nation or whatever has is its culture. it doesn't have anything else. you know, the people making the culture have to be fed, so you have restaurants, and there has to be a working system for everything to work. but it's all... eventually what you're left with is your writers and your painters and your musicians, your dancers and your poets. i mean, that's what you're left with — culture. and to stop it — it's madness, of course it is. you throughout your career have painted from what is happening around you,

from the culture around you. we've already discussed the fact you're 90 years young. are you still getting inspiration, ideas from the culture around you in this year of 2022? not necessarily new things. i mean, if brian wilson... when his world tour comes to london, i'll be there to see brian wilson. and i still playjazz every day, but it tends to be dizzy gillespie and miles davis. yeah, and i should say, brian wilson, of course, from the beach boys, one of your favorite bands. yeah. see, the reason i'm asking you about your take on culture today is that you said something that really struck me not long ago, and i wondered whether it's a fairly bleak thing for you to say, because you said —

i'm not appropriate any more to be an artist at this point. i guess you mean age 90 in 2022. well, some of the worst things you could be, you went on, are male, white and heterosexual, which means i'm in a difficult place, which is fine, i accept it. do you feel alienated from culture today? i don't feel alienated from it, but it's different. things have changed. i don't know what it would be like to be a young white male heterosexual artist now, coming out of art school. but i think they would have a rougher time than... i don't want to go... i don't want to say if there's an opposite to that. i don't think there is. and whatever�*s happened, whatever�*s happening is happening anyway.

do you think some of the things you've painted, some of the subjects you've taken on, some of the sort of feeling and imagery you've used, would it be difficult to do that today? it would, yes. i mean, certainly some of the early pictures of girls, it wouldn't be appropriate to do them today. i mean, there was a culture when some of those pictures were painted in the �*50s. the idea of a pin—up girl was acceptable. it was used all the time. you know, pictures of pretty women were... it was fine to use it. it isn't now. it isn't fine to use a picture of a pretty woman simply because she's pretty. the world has changed, the rules are different, and what's acceptable is not the same.

but you seem to be saying you accept it, you don't want to fight it? i don't want to fight it. well, italk to m self about it. ., i mean, some of it i think is awful, and some of it i dislike very much. but i don't want... i don't want to fight it and i don't want to discuss it, really. and i know if i did, i would be in instant trouble, that would be unfair. you know, iwould be attacked instantly. but even if i said the odd word, i would be attacked, probably. i want to end, then, where i began, with the idea that, even now, you get up and you want to paint or you want to create in different ways. do you think that will ever leave you? no, it won't.

i mean, as i say, i had this moment when i was 90 and there was enough work leftjust to finish the work i've started, to carry me through to however much longer i've got. and now i've got this exciting new project, which you'll know about soon enough. so there's that to look forward to. that exhibition is indeed something to look forward to. but for now, sir peter blake, i want to thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you. it was a pleasure. thank you, i enjoyed it.

hello there. over the past couple of days we have seen some torrential downpours across england and wales, localised flooding in places. the heavy thundery showers have now eased away and it looks like over the next few days we will see a little rain at times, mainly in the north and west, with increasing sunshine in the south and east. low pressure in off the atlantic will bring a breeze on thursday, and this weather front will bring cloud and rain slowly spreading from west to east across the country. initially we start with quite a bit of cloud, heavy showers in the south—east, but increasing sunshine for central, southern and eastern areas in the afternoon. the weather front will bring patchy rain across scotland, northern ireland and western parts of england and wales. behind it, heavy showers for scotland and northern ireland in the afternoon. further south and east, it would be more dry with temperatures reaching 25, in the high teens further north and west, quite breezy as well.

the weather front continues to cross england and wales on thursday night, clearer skies with the odd shower, temperatures a bit cool in the north and west, but quite warm and mild in the south and the east. the weather front eventually clears away from the south—east on friday, low pressure to the north of the uk, brisk westerly winds and sunshine and blustery showers. we will lose the cloud and rain in the south—east on friday morning. plenty of sunshine in central, southern and eastern england. a mixture of sunny spells and scattered blustery showers elsewhere. temperatures ranging from the high teens up to 20 degrees in the north, 20—25 further south and east. around the seasonal norm. on saturday, low pressure to the north of the uk, northern and western areas will see the most showers, some could be quite heavy, with sunshine in between. a greater chance of staying dry in southern and eastern england.

again 25 the high, mid—to—high teens further north. on sunday, the area of low pressure clears, and we look to the west for another one pushing on across the uk, arriving later in the day. much of the country will have a dry sunday before it turns more wet and windy. initially across western areas, gradually moving into eastern areas on sunday night and into monday.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: a dire warning about the near—critical situation in ukraine's zaporizhzhia nuclear plant under russian control as they train for a crisis that some fear could be more serious than the chernobyl disaster. translation: it is impossible to ensure the _ translation: it is impossible to ensure the safety _ translation: it is impossible to ensure the safety of - translation: it is impossible to ensure the safety of the - to ensure the safety of the powerplant by the russian occupying forces out there. this is the key concern that we all need to clearly understand. a powerful blast at a kabul mosque during evening prayers. amid reports of multiple casualties, we'll have the latest from the afghan capital. a desperate scramble for safety as firefighters in spain battle

wildfires, which have seen thousands of homes evacuated.