it follows the heaviest monsoon rains in decades. now on bbc news... talking business with aaron heslehurst. hello everyone, a very warm welcome to talking business with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go and take a look at what is on the show, the cost of living is going up, so in the numbers of us taking on super temporary work. if you have hailed an uberfrom a the person who delivered it was working on the so—called, gig economy. more than the quarter of the world work and temporary employment. and society? i am going to be talking the gig economy with these two.

the boss of the australian—based work platform, airtasker and the man leading the policy to regulate the sector, european commissioner, nicholas schmit. also on the show i am going to be talking about supply chains, and the economic pressures of doing business in turkey where inflation is running at 80%. companies. i have got the big bosses of the company which owns companies. where ever you arejoining me from around the world, once again a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, we have seen lots of massive disruptions to the global economy in the last few years. the pandemic shut the world down and now war and sanctions are driving prices up.

but before covid, the world of workers was going through another disruption and digital one at that. technology companies were launching platforms like uber, just eat and deliveroo where people can work for less than an hour if they chose, rather than sign contracts for work for years. companies work millions left regulators and competitors running to catch up. statistics in this sector are difficult to come by. one american survey found that one in three workers in the united states are now freelance in their numbers are growing a mate what has been dubbed the great resignation following the pandemic. in india an official government think tank thinks there will be more than 23 million workers in the gig economy by the end of the decade. and in the european union it's projected that 43 million people work in the gig economy by 2025. none or few of those people are being given sick pay or pension contributions. it is work with no safety net. but the gig economy does give those who work for

it and those who use their work incredible flexibility. workers can choose their hours, fitting it around otherjobs and commitments like childcare or helping elderly relatives. and with the cost of living pressures on the rise, the projections are that more of us are going to be taking up side hustles. this sector, it's exploded leaving regulators playing catch up. uma rani is the senior economist at the international labour office. regulations fall behind innovations and here it is been a very classic case where, you know, you have technological innovation through entrepreneurship with uber that came about and itjust made its name without regulations and then expanded across the world and as a result of it. you know, you have multiple other models that have been based on it, which have come across a whole range of sectors whether you're talking

about delivery services or care sectors or beauty workers or domestic workers or even medical consultations. so you have a whole range of sectors where these platforms have come out. and regulations are far behind and i think that i will still say, at the european union level you have a commission which has come out with eu directive proposal which is a very good step forward and i think that we will have to see how that over plays in the coming over plays in the coming months and what it would mean for the platform. uma rani from ilo there, she mentions that the european commission set out its proposals to regulate this market in the december. it wants to make it clear when someone is an employee and entitled to the benefits of that and when they are not. so, i caught up with the european union

commission forjobs and social rights. commissioner, nicolas schmit, a real pleasure having you on the show. your own estimates that in 2020 gig economy in the eu generated something like $14 billion, that was before the pandemic. i am wondering, why has it taken so long to clarify when someone is employed and when they are not? this is a very fast revolution and nobody really understood what was happening. 50 nobody really understood what was ha eninu. , nobody really understood what was hamenin, , ,, happening. so this was driven by technology- _ happening. so this was driven by technology. this _ happening. so this was driven by technology. this was _ happening. so this was driven by technology. this was driven - happening. so this was driven by technology. this was driven by i happening. so this was driven by i technology. this was driven by new companies, new business models and now the time has come when we have to adjust and we have to really take into account the different aspects including the economic aspects, the social aspects, the competition aspects. and with these new business models. d0 aspects. and with these new business models. , ., ~ ., models. do you think their digital latforms models. do you think their digital platforms are _ models. do you think their digital platforms are taken _ models. do you think their digital platforms are taken advantage i models. do you think their digital platforms are taken advantage of| models. do you think their digital -

platforms are taken advantage of the law, which, if we we are frank can lead to several interpretations? there was not really a law for digital platforms. it was just, well, i think digital plat form was smart enough to find some loopholes and tried to build a business model. and you say up to 5 million employees in the eu are currently misclassified as self employed and self—employed. that means they are not getting things like sick pay and other benefits. yet the process you undertaken is going to take many years. what you expect to happen in the meantime? it years. what you expect to happen in the meantime?— the meantime? it will still take some time _ the meantime? it will still take some time because _ the meantime? it will still take some time because we - the meantime? it will still take some time because we are - the meantime? it will still take some time because we are still the meantime? it will still take i some time because we are still at the negotiation member states. and then in the second phase also with then in the second phase also with the european parliament. but i'm quite optimistic but by the end of next year at least we will have a european directive. and this will then be used by member states again

two years. in the meantime i think the smartest platform they will adjust, they will adapt because they will prepare for what is already coming. and we see this revolution already very clearly, because what they me now is also some legal security, first. we have seen legal certainty is important. we have seen in the uk when a big platform had to adapt to a ruling by the supreme court. we see in other member states. so i think the evolution has already started and we see also that already started and we see also that a certain number of platforms already have changed their modelling in terms of giving their workers a certain number of rights or employ them as normal workers. [30 certain number of rights or employ them as normal workers.— them as normal workers. do you antici ate them as normal workers. do you anticipate more _ them as normal workers. do you anticipate more people - them as normal workers. do you anticipate more people having i them as normal workers. do you| anticipate more people having to take on these so—called side hustles

because of the cost of living crisis that we are always during? this because of the cost of living crisis that we are always during? this is a very important _ that we are always during? this is a very important question _ that we are always during? this is a very important question about - that we are always during? this is a very important question about our. very important question about our society at large. because if people have to take differentjobs, several jobs to make ends meet then we are in a society with a lot of social problems. we are already in some areas in this precise context. this is the question of the value of work, this is a question of work poverty. and this is also a question of inequality in our societies. so i think what we have dislike out is more quality of work, fair wages and fairness our society because more unequal societies are not better societies. �* ., , unequal societies are not better societies. ., , ., ~ , societies. are gig economy workers unfairly treated _ societies. are gig economy workers unfairly treated at _ societies. are gig economy workers unfairly treated at the _ societies. are gig economy workers

unfairly treated at the moment, - unfairly treated at the moment, because some will argue that the flexibility is very important to many people? i flexibility is very important to many maple?— flexibility is very important to many people? flexibility is very important to man --eole? ., ., ., many people? i would not say that all m many people? i would not say that all gig workers _ many people? i would not say that all gig workers are _ many people? i would not say that all gig workers are treated - all gig workers are treated unfairly, i would all gig workers are treated unfairly, iwould never say all gig workers are treated unfairly, i would never say that. there are workers that are treated quite fairly, there is a great diversity within the gig economy at this respect. now, flexibility i accept flexibility. because indeed in our society and this business model. it is also given... we need flexibility because this is the only way to respond to this demand, we cannot have absolutely rigid ways of working. that flexibility should not mean that i have no rights, i have no possibility when i am sick to get some protection. i have no right afterwards to a pension or i have no

right to collective bargaining, to co—decide what my salary, what my price is. so i think that this is flexibility against social rights is the wrong choice. i think we have to find a middle ground between flexibility which is obviously needed on the side of the platform, obviously. but also on the side of a lot of gig workers and social rights because i think that all the gig workers, they would like to have some protection when they are sick and have some more say when the price of their service and their wage or whatever you call it is established. d0 wage or whatever you call it is established.— wage or whatever you call it is established. ,, ., , established. do you think taxpayers are auoin established. do you think taxpayers are going to — established. do you think taxpayers are going to have _ established. do you think taxpayers are going to have to _ established. do you think taxpayers are going to have to pay _ established. do you think taxpayers are going to have to pay more - established. do you think taxpayers are going to have to pay more if- are going to have to pay more if more people work this way? because, they will need more from the state governments, right? because their employer won't be giving them things like sick pay. irate

employer won't be giving them things like sick pay-— like sick pay. we cannot have a s stem like sick pay. we cannot have a system where _ like sick pay. we cannot have a system where some _ like sick pay. we cannot have a system where some employers like sick pay. we cannot have a - system where some employers have to pay taxes, they have to play social contributions and then we have a system where nobody pays social contributions in the general system. so this would create a big division among workers, but also in our whole social protection systems. at the end, it will be the community, the state who has to find the solutions. so i am against all of this kind of ideas about unconditional minimum income and things like that. i think we havejust a income and things like that. i think we have just a respect work, income and things like that. i think we havejust a respect work, we have to pay people fair wages. we have to establish our weather systems. and everybody has to pay his or her fair share. this applies to workers, but this applies to self employed and this applies to self employed and this applies to self employed and this applies obviously to all of

those who are indeed up lawyers including the platforms. you publish our draft including the platforms. you publish your draft proposal _ including the platforms. you publish your draft proposal back _ including the platforms. you publish your draft proposal back in - your draft proposal back in december? just briefly, what has been the response from eu members? in general the response was positive. certainly there was a lot of questions because we are in a new area. the world is changing, there area. the world is changing, there are a lot of questions that have been put, there are countries that have already put into place some legislation which partly fits with my proposal some do not fit so much. so we are now in the state in the process of having this debate between member states but generally i think there is awareness that we cannot just leave this i think there is awareness that we cannotjust leave this new economy, this new business modeljust aside. and not bring them into a framework with some rules. for social reasons but also the competition rules. why

should a platform be treated absently differently from a normal business, a normal shop, a normal restaurant. i think there has to be fair competition conditions also in the area. it is the era of the standard job is that guns are ever? i do not believe that it is the end of the standard job. this is a new challenge because we have to help people to navigate into this new kind of work. this new world of work where mobility is requested, where investing in knowledge and skills as requested and where at the same time we respond, especially also for younger people to their quest and their need is some security. because you have to build your life, not just from one day to another, you have to be able to plan your life,

to bring in to your life some security, if you want to have a family you cannotjust have a doubt if you have a salary tomorrow or not. so we need security, we need also mobility and so the world of work will change and we have to bring into this new world of work, the right framework and the right regulation. not over regulating, leaving the possibility to this revolution but at the same time being human centred. i think this is an extremely important issue to be human centred. the economy is not for its own safety, the economy is also at the end for people links are cominu on also at the end for people links are coming on the _ also at the end for people links are coming on the show, _ also at the end for people links are coming on the show, i'll— also at the end for people links are coming on the show, i'll talk- also at the end for people links are coming on the show, i'll talk to - coming on the show, i'll talk to you soon. let's talk about one company thatis soon. let's talk about one company that is doing particularly well, airtasker. it operates in australia, the us in the uk. it says that more

than 2 million people are using the platform to find people to do one tasks like cleaning to something more complicated like building your website. i have been speaking to its big box and founder, tim fung a pleasure to have you on our show. let's start with this because it looks like business is booming, your last set of numbers show a more than 30%jump in volume last set of numbers show a more than 30% jump in volume and last set of numbers show a more than 30%jump in volume and the money that you bring in. iam just wondering if this period of inflation, this cost of living crisis that we are all ensuring at the moment, if that is going to take your numbers even further? absolutely. we have seen with nine point something percent inflation in the uk being reported, brits are looking for more ways than ever to be out and some extra money, to compensate for that rising cost of living. we have seen a 300% increase in tasker sign—ups in the last three months which is really reflective of

people looking for the opportunity to build some extra income. hagar people looking for the opportunity to build some extra income. how much reaulation to build some extra income. how much regulation do — to build some extra income. how much regulation do you _ to build some extra income. how much regulation do you believe _ to build some extra income. how much regulation do you believe this - regulation do you believe this industry needs? i regulation do you believe this industry needs?— regulation do you believe this industry needs? i think things like makin: industry needs? i think things like making sure _ industry needs? i think things like making sure that _ industry needs? i think things like making sure that there _ industry needs? i think things like making sure that there are - industry needs? i think things like making sure that there are safe i making sure that there are safe working environments, making sure that people get paid in line with the wages are all important considerations, one underlying thing about second —— airtasker. we believe that our users should follow the lawjust believe that our users should follow the law just as believe that our users should follow the lawjust as they believe that our users should follow the law just as they would believe that our users should follow the lawjust as they would if believe that our users should follow the law just as they would if they were connected by any other form. just because something is done on airtasker doesn't mean you don't have the same responsibilities that you have any other kind of platform or environment. [30 you have any other kind of platform or environment.— or environment. do you say that certainly in _ or environment. do you say that certainly in the _ or environment. do you say that certainly in the near _ or environment. do you say that certainly in the near future - or environment. do you say that certainly in the near future that| certainly in the near future that regular old fashion ways of employing people, do you see that dying out? irla. employing people, do you see that d in: out? ., ~' employing people, do you see that d in: out? ., ~ ., dying out? no. i think that full-time _ dying out? no. i think that full-time and _ dying out? no. i think that full-time and permanent l dying out? no. i think that _ full-time and permanent employment full—time and permanent employment is absolutely going to be part of the mix. different kinds ofjobs need to have different kinds of

structures, what we have found about flexible working is that people absolutely love is the flexibility. the ability to choose when you want to work, he wants to work with and what kind ofjobs you want to do. is there a danger that things people use to get from their employer like sick pay, minimum wages, those sorts of things where they have to be borne by taxpayers, do you think rather than employers? i borne by taxpayers, do you think rather than employers?- borne by taxpayers, do you think rather than employers? i think all of those problems _ rather than employers? i think all of those problems that _ rather than employers? i think all of those problems that have - rather than employers? i think all of those problems that have been solved in the full—time permanent environment, things like, i am making sure that people save money or making sure that people can be compensated when they are not able to work. they are all problems that exist in both permanent full—time work but also in the flexible labour economy and on the gig economy. so i think those are all problems which we should be aiming to solve over time. certainly at airtasker we have our thinking cap on about how we can solve them. what we don't think is a goodidea

solve them. what we don't think is a good idea is to take the same solutions, the same systems that exist in the permanent, full—time environment and just arbitrarily apply them into the flexible labour environment. i i work well. appreciate your time, thank you for joining me. not many turkish manufacturers are household names across a large part of the world are colluding the west, but you might be familiar with the goods maker becker as well as fridge freezers and washing machines they will find their name on computers, audio goods and air—conditioning units. but as well as having to cope with covert and supply chains problems in to go greener, they are based on a country where inflation reached close to 80% in july. the where inflation reached close to 80% injuly. the country's president has been getting close to putin and the lira has lost half of its value against the dollar in the last year.

so i caught up with the big boss to find out how it is coping with all of these crosses? a real pleasure to have you on the show. a real pleasure, let's talk about the supply chain chaos, because you manufacture all sorts of products. and you rely on parts and bits and pieces and made all over the place. how have you coped with this enormous disruption? it has been difficult. at the beginning of the pandemic we originally reacted by essentially trying to secure a supply base, which is becoming very difficult with all of the closures. and ensuring business continuity. that was the biggest challenge. then we quickly saw the appliances are an industry that will have a tail and because of everyone spending money on their homes, redoing their kitchens and so on. so, we both had disruption caused by the pandemic enclosures. and also the increase in

demand. which was very challenging to manage. but i like to think that we are a diverse footprint, global footprint has really helped us create local ecosystems supply. there has helped us weather the storm better than our competitors. just supply security is not the only issue here, the logistics, the cost, the increase in logistics has been absolutely incredible. i used to cost 2000 ended up costing $20,000. which makes it prohibited for you to pass on those costs to come humours. ship orders, the shipping lines of really abusive situations by raising the prices exorbitantly. i think this cycle will turn around with demand reducing because of geopolitical tensions, the war. energy inflation, i think we will see a return to normalcy and that will really ease our operations. when do you think we will see manufacturing and distribution stabilising? i

manufacturing and distribution stabilising?— manufacturing and distribution stabilisinu? ., stabilising? i would say six to 12 months we _ stabilising? i would say six to 12 months we will _ stabilising? i would say six to 12 months we will see _ stabilising? i would say six to 12 | months we will see stabilisation. basically on the back of reduced demand, probably.— basically on the back of reduced demand, probably. another crisis that much of— demand, probably. another crisis that much of the _ demand, probably. another crisis that much of the world _ demand, probably. another crisis that much of the world is - demand, probably. another crisis that much of the world is facing l demand, probably. another crisis| that much of the world is facing is the energy crisis, these prices are soaring. how is that affecting your business? it soaring. how is that affecting your business? . soaring. how is that affecting your business? , ., , . business? it is not 'ust affecting our business? it is notjust affecting our manufacturing, _ business? it is notjust affecting our manufacturing, of— business? it is notjust affecting our manufacturing, of course i business? it is notjust affectingl our manufacturing, of course you have to pass on to consumers. it is impacting the complaint you most�*s disposable income more than anything. it is a double whammy and unfortunately it is going to impact europe more than anywhere else in the world. europe, if this kind of energy inflation continues will be pushed into an enduring recession which is not good for anybody. lets which is not good for anybody. lets talk about the _ which is not good for anybody. lets talk about the war _ which is not good for anybody. lets talk about the war in ukraine, the russian invasion turkey's at is complicated. it's a nato member but the president is finding common cause with putin, and your company you have a fridge and washing

machine company in russia? is that still operating? it’s machine company in russia? is that still operating?— still operating? it's causing unimaginable _ still operating? it's causing unimaginable suffering - still operating? it's causing unimaginable suffering and still operating? it's causing - unimaginable suffering and not only that it actually one of the most direct causes of the recession we are facing in your. so i believe that this needs to end as soon as possible in any way possible. we believe. turkey has stayed mutual from the beginning of the war, it has relations with ukraine and russia. 0ur russian operations have continued in a much smaller fashion. we have stopped exporting from russia, we only manufacture in russia, we only manufacture in russia for the russian market which is shrunk dramatically as well. the position we took the is all of our employees over there are no different from our employees in thailand or china and have no part in this conflict and why should they be punished by losing their wages? we decided against closing the operation and just keeping the

operation and just keeping the operation or smaller downsides way. let's talk about the economic problems facing turkey will stop the inflation hit 80%, the lira plunging inflation hit 80%, the lira plunging in value and the president insists on lowering interest rates, when as you know all economic norm say that you know all economic norm say that you raise rates to lower inflation, like we see many banks doing right now. i am just wondering which one of those keeps you awake at night? these days there are so many reasons to keep you awake at night, how can you fall asleep? you never know what is coming. turkey, it is a double edge sword, of course it is quite sad that we are under this extreme inflation blusher, 80% makes daily life very difficult. this disposable income, and wage inflation strengths the market. the turkish market in terms of units has been shrinking

quite dramatically because of this high inflation. 0n the other hand, in turkey we have had high inflation before. periodically, iwould in turkey we have had high inflation before. periodically, i would say every six or seven years turkey goes through a cycle of crisis. which is actually made companies like the one i am leading very resilient to crisis. i am i am leading very resilient to crisis. iam prepared i am leading very resilient to crisis. i am prepared to argue that we have much more experience dealing with inflation that you see now in the uk are in northern europe, which you haven't seen in 50 years. we know how to deal with it much better, we know how to change our supply chains. supply chain cycles are basically fulfilment cycles, pricing strategies. and it does make us a little bit protected in this regard. us a little bit protected in this reaard. ., ., ,, ., ., , regard. you are known for being forthriuht regard. you are known for being forthright about _ regard. you are known for being forthright about ecological - regard. you are known for being l forthright about ecological issues, sustainability and ceos like yourself they face a big challenge.

building the company whilst being green and i'm going to quote you here, you said, the race is on, we need to invent materials and processes to avoid being far richer people on a far poorer planet. can it be done?— it be done? that is the real question — it be done? that is the real question l _ it be done? that is the real question i tried _ it be done? that is the real question i tried to - it be done? that is the real question i tried to say - it be done? that is the real. question i tried to say earlier it be done? that is the real- question i tried to say earlier that sustainability is dear to my heart. can it be done, i believe absolutely. but it we need is we need to take action right now. look at germany, they are telling retired people to go to the south of turkey in the winter to save on heating their homes and gas from russia. that is exactly what we need to do. i don't care whether oil comes when wejust i don't care whether oil comes when we just need to use less of it to decarbonise the economy. if we can have a sense of urgency around geopolitics, it astonishes me we don't have a sense of urgency and solutions around something that is threatening the very existence of

our planets in the future of the people that live on it. we will do everything in our power to decarbonise the company, continue reducing our carbon footprint, we are doing every single day. and actually try to reach these difficult goals that we have set for ourselves. i believe that we can set a good example for those to follow. do i have hope, the short answer is apps to have hope. aha, do i have hope, the short answer is apps to have hope-— apps to have hope. a real pleasure to have the — apps to have hope. a real pleasure to have the on _ apps to have hope. a real pleasure to have the on the _ apps to have hope. a real pleasure to have the on the show. _ apps to have hope. a real pleasure| to have the on the show. good luck with everything. that is it that this week show, i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget you can keep up with our latest on the bbc website or the smartphone app. you can also follow me on twitter, i'll tweet you back. thanks for watching, i'll see you soon, goodbye. well, it's been a very dry summer so far, and we really do need some more rainfall, particularly for drought stricken areas. but if you've got outdoor plans this

bank holiday weekend, then i dare say you'll be fairly happy with the weather forecast. it is set to stay mostly dry. there'll be some sunny spells around, the small chance of an isolated shower, but it will turn rather breezy towards the south of england and wales in particular. now, it's high pressure that's keeping us dry. it's sitting towards the north of the uk, gradually start to push a little further eastwards. it's not a bank holiday weekend in scotland and it's here where we have a warm front overnight tonight, just throwing more cloud into eastern areas of scotland. see maybe few outbreaks of rain towards the west, otherwise dry. a milder night in scotland than we saw last night. temperatures will stay in double figures, quite cloudy in northern ireland. clear skies across much of england and wales. temperatures here dropping to between ten and 1a degrees celsius. a few early mist patches into tomorrow morning and then tomorrow. well, it's more of the same. could be a few outbreaks of rain towards the western isles, but other than that, it's mostly dry but quite cloudy across scotland. a few breaks in the cloud, maybe towards the far southwest glasgow

could see 22 degrees celsius. some breaks across northern ireland, but generally cloudy, best of the sunshine across england and wales, small chance of an isolated shower and again cooler towards those north sea facing coasts with the northeasterly winds. now, as we head through sunday and into monday, our area of high pressure just starts to push eastward. so the north easterly wind is set to strengthen. and towards those eastern facing coasts, there will generally be a lot more cloud. there could be one or two showers just running in on that breeze at times, too. so the best of the sunshine will really tend to be out towards the west and this is where the highest temperatures will tend to be as well. it's really quite windy across much of southern england here. temperatures towards parts of devon and cornwall maybe and south wales could get as high as 2a, 25 degrees celsius away from the strength of the wind. and of course over the bank holiday weekend, we see a return to the notting hill carnival. you'd be unlucky to catch a shower, but there could be a few knocking around at times sunny spells and certainly mostly dry with temperatures in the low 20s in celsius. and here is the outlook as we head through the rest of the week.

so you can see, it's looking pretty similar, really temperatures in the high teens for scotland and northern ireland, the low 20s for much of england and wales. there will be some sunny spells at times.

this is bbc news. the headlines at 4:00pm. the government says middle—income earners will need more help to pay their energy bills, notjust the poorest. but ministers claim waiting until a new leader is in place is the best approach. i think it's right that when they become prime minister, whoever it is, they will want to look at all of the options properly costed. police investigating the fatal shooting of nine—year—old 0livia pratt—korbel at her home in liverpool, have arrested a second man on suspicion of murder. a national emergency has been declared in pakistan after millions of people were forced from their homes. it follows the heaviest monsoon rains in decades. it's been more than ten days of heavy rains and yet the streets of sukkur are still flooded. this is one of the main roads linking this community to the outside world.