we will have the headlines and all the new stories for you at the top of the hour as the news continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. not only has ukraine been irrevocably changed by vladimir putin's military aggression, so has russia. putin has used the conflict to crack down harder on dissent and instil an ever more strident brand of nationalism. that made life in moscow unbearable for my guest today. pinchas goldschmidt was chief rabbi of moscow till he fled from russia and left his post. his fate has exposed the scale

of widerjewish flight from russia and divisions within thejewish community. why is this war deepening jewish anxiety? rabbi pinchas goldschmidt in jerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. hi, stephen. thank you for inviting me to hardtalk. it's the second time with you. it's the second time and it's a pleasure to have you back on the show. things have changed since you were last talking to me there. you sit in jerusalem. you served as chief rabbi of moscow for, what,

pretty much three decades. you made your life in russia and just a couple of months ago, you chose to leave. why? i went to sleep the 23rd of february in the evening in moscow. and i woke up in the morning in a different country. it was still moscow, but with different rules, with different laws. and ifelt... ..that the world is changing and... ..isaw... ..the bombs, bombing of kyiv. the new laws in russia cracking down on dissent. we saw that the remnant of any free media was closed down. ekho moskvy, the novaya gazeta and others. and... but this is only the beginning.

interesting, rabbi, that you choose to say the world changed on february 24th with the invasion of ukraine. but isn't the truth that for a few days or even weeks after that invasion, you chose to stay quiet? you indicated that you'd received messages, i'd like to know who from, saying that you should not criticise the war in order not to get the jewish community into trouble. so who gave you that message, and why did you ultimately decide you couldn't adhere to that message? as the situation was, was, and when the war was going on, we expected, you know, based on the history, we know we are in russia. russia has, each country has its history. the community leaders expected that eventually there is going to be demand, demand from the authorities

to support the war and the community leaders among us, we decided all together not to say one word, not in support and not against it. of course, that is support because you cannot support this war and not against it, because then we would, to some extent, endanger the community. but as time passed and i saw the thousands, maybe the hundreds of thousands of refugees leaving ukraine, among them thousands ofjews, rabbis who organised the buses to get the community out of bombardments. communities which were... ..which were built during the last 30 years, as i arrived in moscow, my colleagues arrived in kyiv in droves, in kharkiv and other cities, and odesa. i saw that those communities are being destroyed. i felt that i had

to do something. i couldn't keep quiet. keeping quiet was not good enough. and my wife and i, we decided to leave russia and go and start a foundation and help the refugees who left ukraine to go to eastern europe. your position became, within a few weeks of that invasion, your position became that it was morally wrong, morally unacceptable to stay silent, not to condemn that invasion. is that what i should understand from what you're saying? yes. i believe that staying silent was wrong, was morally wrong. if you are silent in the face of evil, it's morally wrong. and that's the reason we decided, first of all, to do something about it. and afterwards, when i left the country, i spoke up. why then do you think that other seniorfigures in the russianjewish community took a very different view? i'm thinking in particular, for example, of rabbi alexander boroda, president of the federation of jewish communities in russia,

who reflected on what he saw as the worrying neo—nazi tendencies in ukraine. what did you make of his position? i still believe that, who am i tojudge others? living in... ..such a country under such a regime today where any word uttered can... . . have great ramifications. it takes a lot of courage to speak out and who am ito judge others? but the point is that there's something significant about what boroda said and his view of you, because you indicated that you'd been told that there would be trouble for thejewish community in moscow and russia if you spoke out.

there was pressure put upon you, that's your position. boroda claims, as far as he's concerned and aware, there was no pressure put on the jewish community in russia. so who is telling the truth and who is not? you have to decide in interview, maybe in hardtalk about that next time. however, at this time, i would take any kind of statement coming out of russia with great care, making sure that the statement is a bona fide statement and the people who said certain things, that actually it was their opinion. i guess what he, that is, rabbi boroda, appears to believe is that you are, in essence, disrespecting all of the jewish community. and let's face it, there's well over 100,000 of them in russia. all of those jewish people in russia who have

chosen to stay in russia and who are not speaking out against the war, the implication of what you're saying is that theirs is a morally indefensible position. i can tell you that the response i received after we came out with my position has been from all over, from inside russia, from outside russia. and if we look at the latest polls of the immigrants from the former soviet union in israel, between 70 and 80% are tilting against the war and helping ukraine. the word nazi or neo—nazi has been used a great deal by both sides in this war. let me ask you, as a very experienced rabbi, do you believe the description, nazi, is applicable to either side in this war?

and if so, which side do you think right now appears to embody some of the values, attitudes and even actions resonant and reminiscent of the nazis? the use of the terminology of national socialists or nazis, i would be extremely careful of using this kind of terminology to any other conflict, any other war, because of the singular experience of the holocaust, which, where a nation, which was a cultured nation, which produced goethe and schiller and others, stoop low enough to kill 1.5 million children, all because they were jews. so i'm against the use

of the terminology of nazis against anybody or for any political purposes. now, i believe that this war is a catastrophe. it is a catastrophe, not only for ukraine, not only for the ukrainian jewish communities. it is also a catastrophe for russia, for all russian citizens, and especially for the russian jewish community. there is an interesting question about religious leaders in russia today. you're, of course, a former religious leader in russia because you're not there any more. but there are, as we've discussed, prominent jewish leaders still inside the country. do you think that they can be compared, for example, with the leader of the orthodox russian church, kirill, who is clearly deeply sympathetic to vladimir putin, has a close relationship with vladimir putin and uses his pulpit to support vladimir putin. do you think that there's any sense in which thejewish

leadership are being used right now by vladimir putin? i think that the fact that the government is feeling compelled to mobilise the religious leadership in russia shows to what extent there is a lack of support within society for this war. you have already talked about jewish people leaving russia. give me a sense of the numbers. i've read numbers suggesting the exodus has been in the tens of thousands, many, of course, going to israel, but going to other countries as well. how big an exodus do you believe it to be and what kind of russianjews are choosing to leave? the official numbers of russian citizens ofjewish descent who applied and received israeli citizenship during the months of

the war are above 20,000. however, besides that, you have a great number ofjews who, already prior to that, in the years past, knowing and thinking and fearing of the developments which are actually happening now, have already acquired israeli citizenship. continue to live in moscow and because of this war, decided to finally leave moscow, leave russia and move to israel. this number can be quite high, also in the tens of thousands. and then we have many who left to other countries, to dubai, to the capitals of other former soviet union countries like tbilisi and baku. is it fear that's driving them? maybe a fear that, from based on history,

when there is political trouble, a rise of nationalism, turbulence, the jews have an historical feeling that they may well, in the longer run, become victims? yes, it is definitely this fear which compels a lot of people to leave russia, and not onlyjews. and if you would like to describe the different fears which were expressed also to me for people, i'm speaking to a lot of people who are still in russia and speaking to hundreds of people who left russia to other countries, especially to israel. so, a, there's this fear that we're going back, we're going to back to a... ..to a situation which is, it has been called the soviet union—lite, back to the soviet union. now we know that one

of the most important elements of the cold war, of the warsaw pact, soviet union, was the berlin wall, was the inability of citizens of the eastern bloc to leave the country. you need an exit visa. so with this return to, in many ways, we're returning to the soviet union. look at the rhetoric. look at that... ..there are almost no relationship between east and west. no communications, almost no communications by air. visas have become extremely difficult to get. not only do you say visas have become more difficult to get, but we now know the russian government is pushing to shut down the activities of thejewish agency inside russia. the agency, of course, being the main vehicle for helping jews make the journey to a new life in israel. you have said that that

represents the jewish community being held hostage in what is becoming a diplomatic war between russia and israel. the rhetoric you're using surely risks inflaming the situation? thejewish agency for israel is a hybrid organisation. it is not 100% governmental and not 100% nongovernmental. it is a hybrid organisation dealing not only with emigration to israel, but also with the jewish education, formal education, informal education. and having the russian government tell israel and the jewish agency that you are not welcome is a very strong statement. emigration, or emigration to israel, that is said, has been the result that of the jewish state, of being a haven after that

in world war ii, jews had nowhere to go and in 95% of the countries didn't want to have jews. jews today, in time of need, have a way to go. that's a result of that. so when a government comes and says, "we don't want this agency "to continue to be in our midst in our country", it is a message that this country has a problem with emigration ofjews. and it takes just a few seconds to parallel this with soviet times whenjewish emigration was forbidden. your concerns are clear, and you made your decision, and you call it a moral decision to leave russia. and there you sit injerusalem. does it trouble you as it appears to trouble president zelensky of ukraine that israel has, in the last six months, chosen to tread a very delicate path where it appears to want to maintain cordial, warm relations with russia

and with vladimir putin, as well as with the ukrainian government, led by zelensky. and thus far, israel has refused to impose its own sanctions on russia and refuses to send lethal arms, weapons, to ukraine. do you believe the israeli government has got it wrong? i don't think that president zelensky has the right to criticise israel. i think that israel right now is dealing with two countries in its north, and lebanon and syria, two failed countries in which organisations affiliated, sponsored and financed by iran are... ..are being a security threat to israel throughout the last dozens of years and syria, in syria and in lebanon.

so israel, besides dealing with the european issues, we're dealing with this war in europe between russia and ukraine, israel has to deal with its own security first. but with respect, zelensky isn't criticising israel for its geopolitical realities. he's simply asking israel to apply a form of morality that you have referred to from the very beginning of this interview. he spoke direct to the israeli knesset, and he said, "it is not possible..." sorry, he said, "it is possible to mediate between countries, "but it is not possible to mediate between good and evil. " and in his view, this aggression by russia, putin's war represents a moral choice which all countries, including israel, must make. i think that the president

of ukraine is entitled to his own views. but so as we have seen, this conflict between east and west is basically between the european union, the united states and, and ukraine on one side and russia on the other side. what we have seen in the middle east, and we're not talking only about israel, we talk about saudi arabia, we talk about the gulf countries. and we've been talking about turkey, which is part of nato. israel is not part of nato. turkey has not imposed sanctions on russia. so israel has been clearly critical of the russian invasion. prime minister lapid expressed it quite forcefully. and i think this might be the reason why thejewish agency of israel today has trouble in russia. this is what some of the commentators are thinking. so i think that,

i'm notjudging. there's a very well—known saying of the rabbis in the mission that, don'tjudge the other till you be in his place. i, as a rabbi, have a moral decision to make. i made the moral decision. the prime minister of israel has a different set of priorities, not only more priorities, he also has to make sure that ballistic missiles are not going to fall on the heads of children going to kindergarten in the north of israel. so i think that he is entitled to his own decision. you, of course, are president of the conference of european rabbis. you look across the continent and you see, i guess, you know, a very significant nationalist, populist trend in many countries, not evenjust in europe, but one could talk about the united states, as well. are you concerned right now that that nationalist, populist trend is feeding into a significant rise in anti—semitism?

i think during the last years, not speaking before february 24th, because i think on february 24th, the world changed. before february 24th, especially the young generation of europeans, who did not experience world war ii, by the way, have not experienced war at all, forgot what it means to have europe at war, what a war is, what refugees are, and what it means. what's the costs of this kind of nationalism which destroys the very fabric of the european continent? so the silver lining of this terrible war, of the russian—ukrainian war is that europeans, especially of the younger generation, started to understand what the price is for this

nationalism, for aggression, and for the lack of democratic values. but if i may interrupt, ijust wonder, i'm mindful you're sitting there injerusalem, do you think the israeli government sometimes forgets too, an israeli government that has sought friendly relations, notjust with vladimir putin, but also with, for example, the government of viktor 0rban, a self—professed nationalist in hungary. do you think israel itself needs to perhaps have a shift of mind—set when it comes to dealing with this nationalist, populist phenomenon? when some israeli, i think it was less government officials but also knesset members were looking to build bridges to the european extreme right, we in the cr were very critical of that.

and i think that especially today's government has been much more careful in endorsing those forces in europe, which are against democracy. what, in your view, is the best way, you talk about educating young people? what is going to work in terms of ensuring anti—semitism, and otherforms of discrimination too, do not rise along with this far—right politics? i think the main component of fighting right—wing extremism or extremism all kind and anti—semitism does not come only from the right. you have a lot of anti—semitism coming also from the extreme left, and unfortunately, you have also islamic radicalism. i think that education, number one, is most important. and also the social media. the social media in our times basically empowered itself

by giving uncensored and unedited news to everyone who comes on social media. i think that the regulations of the european union regarding social media has been extremely necessary in order to make sure that people, especially young people who are being influenced by information, by information coming from those who try to propagate this kind of anti—semitism and racism and ultra—nationalism to stop that. we sadly are out of time. but rabbi pinchas goldschmidt, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much.

hello. the bank holiday weekend continues for most parts of the uk and the dry weather continues for most as well. but there will be some contrast in our weather fortunes through monday. the warmest and sunniest weather will be found in the south and the west, where you have some shelter from a keen north—easterly breeze blowing around this area of high pressure centred to the north of us. along the northern and eastern coasts, where you are exposed to that breeze, there will be a lot of cloud, even some showers through the morning. also a bit of showery rain first thing around some of these irish sea coasts, most of that will tend to ease. through the day, we will keep quite a lot of cloud around the northern and eastern areas, more sunshine across western scotland, northern ireland, parts of wales, the south west of england. there will be some showers around as well, blown along on this brisk breeze but many places will around the showers and remain dry.

temperatures, some north sea coasts only getting into 14 or 15 degrees, compare that with a possible 25 in parts of north cornwall and north devon. as we go through monday night, we will continue to see areas of cloud across northern and eastern parts, a little patchy rain here and there. clear spells further south and west. it does remain fairly breezy. for most, that should hold temperatures up to 9 degrees for aberdeen, 13 for cardiff and for plymouth. as we go through this week, we are going to see more dry weather. it may turn just a little bit warmer for some of us around the middle part of the week. there is a chance of rain later but some uncertainty about exactly who will see that. tuesday, a lot of dry weather, a fair amount of cloud particularly towards the north—east. one or two showers further west, that is where we will see the best of the sunshine. quite breezy across eastern and southern areas. the breeze is quite brisk on the channel coast, 2a in cardiff.

further north in glasgow, a high of 18. deep into the week, the high pressure looks set to retreat northwards. a frontal system pushing in from the west, and showers drifting up from the south. uncertainty about how it will play out, but it looks like increasing chance of rain towards the end of the week and into the weekend. i suspect some places will not see very much and stay predominantly dry.

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