hello and welcome to the programme that brings together distinguished british commentators and foreign correspondents who write, blog, podcast and broadcast from the dateline: london. it's been a week for recalling the world's unfinished business — sectarian violence on city streets in iraq as one of its most influential figures bows out in a country which has endured nearly 20 years of instability. mikhail gorbachev, the last leader of the soviet union is being buried this weekend, in a country still struggling with his legacy. the british are still waiting for a new prime minister. in the studio to discuss all that

are — bronwen maddox, director and chief executive of chatham house, an independent organisation, which under its royal charter exists "to advance "the sciences of international politics, economics, "and jurisprudence". the charter dates from 1926, bronwen maddox from last month, but her appointment is the culmination of a distinguished career reporting the world. michael goldfarb has been a foreign correspondent for npr, national public radio, in the united states. his podcast is the first rough draft of history. the rough draft of history. latest episode features the story the latest episode features the story of mikhail gorbachev. stefanie bolzen is uk and ireland correspondent for the german media group, die welt, including for its newspaper of the same name — a paper established in hamburg by the british army of occupation, one month after winston churchill delivered his speech warning that an iron curtain was descending and dividing europe. let's talk about the unfinished business about the choice of a new prime minister. the voting is over,

they have got to do the counting and we will know on monday whether it is liz truss or rishi sunak. do you think it has been illuminating about what we can expect of what is likely to be a liz truss government? i think it does seem that liz truss has got it, it would be quite a shock if after all the polling we have had so far. i think we have learned quite a lot, but not central things like what she might do to support people through the cost of living crisis. we have learnt important fragments, an uncompromising position, no surprise there, towards europe and the northern ireland protocol and she wants to have defence spending at 3%, although we don't know where the money is coming from and she declared china threat. the phrase that resonates over her whole campaign, it is thejury is out on whether or not france and president macron our friend whether or not france and president macron ourfriend orfoe, which

alarmed friends and foes of britain all round. we have learnt some fragments but we have learnt about her style, she prides herself on being a disrupter, but in a disrupted world it is hard to work out how good that will be. it willi out how good that will be. it will be interesting _ out how good that will be. it will be interesting to _ out how good that will be. it will be interesting to see _ out how good that will be. it will be interesting to see the - out how good that will be. it will be interesting to see the so—called special relationship. every country likes to talk about its special relationship with the united states. she did say to all the busy and the bulging intro she will have when she becomes prime minister next tuesday, she will make time for a call to the white house for a conversation with joe biden. how enthusiastic do think the administration will be about taking the call? in the administration will be about taking the call?— the administration will be about taking the call? in the 25 years we have been doing _ taking the call? in the 25 years we have been doing this _ taking the call? in the 25 years we have been doing this programme, | have been doing this programme, every— have been doing this programme, every time — have been doing this programme, every time there is a new british prime _ every time there is a new british prime minister, is about the call tom _ prime minister, is about the call tom i_ prime minister, is about the call to... i wouldn't mind if she was seen _ to... i wouldn't mind if she was seen walking down the backside of the white — seen walking down the backside of the white house, taking the elbow of joe biden~ _ the white house, taking the elbow of joe biden. the way theresa may did

with donald trump, she seemed to have a _ with donald trump, she seemed to have a hard — with donald trump, she seemed to have a hard time finding where the next step— have a hard time finding where the next step was. they have one thing to talk— next step was. they have one thing to talk about and bronwen mentioned it, to talk about and bronwen mentioned it. the _ to talk about and bronwen mentioned it, the northern ireland protocol is something — it, the northern ireland protocol is something that concerns, not just joe biden, — something that concerns, not just joe biden, because he is irish—american, but also congress. so irish—american, but also congress. 50 that— irish—american, but also congress. 50 that witi— irish—american, but also congress. so that will be a key topic, but the other— so that will be a key topic, but the other thing — so that will be a key topic, but the other thing is, so that will be a key topic, but the otherthing is, it is so that will be a key topic, but the other thing is, it is a time of crisis — other thing is, it is a time of crisis the _ other thing is, it is a time of crisis. the last thing that an american _ crisis. the last thing that an american president wants is to have his core _ american president wants is to have his core alliance, which is with europe, — his core alliance, which is with europe, splitting apart over trade issues _ europe, splitting apart over trade issues and — europe, splitting apart over trade issues and foolishness. is macron friend _ issues and foolishness. is macron friend or— issues and foolishness. is macron friend or foe? don't play these kinds — friend or foe? don't play these kinds of— friend or foe? don't play these kinds of games for domestic politics with diplomacy. i don't think president macron takes it seriously, to be _ president macron takes it seriously, to be honest. that is what they will talk about, — to be honest. that is what they will talk about, but whether that call happens — talk about, but whether that call happens on wednesday or three weeks

from wednesday, because he has got a pretty— from wednesday, because he has got a pretty full_ from wednesday, because he has got a pretty full in _ from wednesday, because he has got a pretty full in tray, is not clear. stephanie, _ pretty full in tray, is not clear. stephanie, one thing she has been explicit about and people have been critical of, her lack of detail, particularly on the cost of living questions and help with energy bills. liz truss was asked at the last hustings and she said they will be no rationing of energy this winter. the debate is different in germany. they have been talking about rationing at least since the summer? i about rationing at least since the summer? . , , ., ., ., summer? i happened to attend that last stin: summer? i happened to attend that last sting here _ summer? i happened to attend that last sting here in _ summer? i happened to attend that last sting here in london. _ summer? i happened to attend that last sting here in london. i- summer? i happened to attend that last sting here in london. i was- last sting here in london. i was surprised — last sting here in london. i was surprised when— last sting here in london. i was surprised when she _ last sting here in london. i was surprised when she said - last sting here in london. i was surprised when she said that, i surprised when she said that, because — surprised when she said that, because i_ surprised when she said that, because i had _ surprised when she said that, because i had just _ surprised when she said that, because i had just come - surprised when she said that, because i had just come back| surprised when she said that, - because i had just come back from germany— because i had just come back from germany where _ because i had just come back from germany where all— because i had just come back from germany where all the _ because i had just come back from germany where all the talk - because i had just come back from germany where all the talk is - because i had just come back froml germany where all the talk is about rationing _ germany where all the talk is about rationing and — germany where all the talk is about rationing and we _ germany where all the talk is about rationing and we have _ germany where all the talk is about rationing and we have the - germany where all the talk is about rationing and we have the breaking | rationing and we have the breaking news _ rationing and we have the breaking news that— rationing and we have the breaking news that north _ rationing and we have the breaking news that north stream _ rationing and we have the breaking news that north stream one - rationing and we have the breaking news that north stream one will. rationing and we have the breaking | news that north stream one will not deliver— news that north stream one will not deliver any— news that north stream one will not deliver any more _ news that north stream one will not deliver any more gas. _ news that north stream one will not deliver any more gas. it _ news that north stream one will not deliver any more gas. it is - news that north stream one will not deliver any more gas. it is really- deliver any more gas. it is really urgent _ deliver any more gas. it is really urgent in — deliver any more gas. it is really urgent in germany— deliver any more gas. it is really urgent in germany and - deliver any more gas. it is really urgent in germany and already. deliver any more gas. it is reallyl urgent in germany and already in deliver any more gas. it is really- urgent in germany and already in the spring _ urgent in germany and already in the spring there — urgent in germany and already in the spring there was _ urgent in germany and already in the spring there was a _ urgent in germany and already in the spring there was a gas _ urgent in germany and already in the spring there was a gas emergency i spring there was a gas emergency plan being — spring there was a gas emergency plan being launched _ spring there was a gas emergency plan being launched and - spring there was a gas emergency plan being launched and the - plan being launched and the government— plan being launched and the government has— plan being launched and the government has also - plan being launched and the - government has also introduced tegistation— government has also introduced legislation and _ government has also introduced legislation and in _ government has also introduced legislation and in public- government has also introduced . legislation and in public buildings, the temperature _ legislation and in public buildings, the temperature has _ legislation and in public buildings, the temperature has to _ legislation and in public buildings,

the temperature has to go - legislation and in public buildings, the temperature has to go down l legislation and in public buildings, | the temperature has to go down to legislation and in public buildings, . the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, _ the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, no— the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, no more _ the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, no more public— the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, no more public lighting - the temperature has to go down to 19 celsius, no more public lighting of. celsius, no more public lighting of monuments — celsius, no more public lighting of monuments and _ celsius, no more public lighting of monuments and so _ celsius, no more public lighting of monuments and so on. _ celsius, no more public lighting of monuments and so on. and - celsius, no more public lighting of monuments and so on. and that. celsius, no more public lighting of| monuments and so on. and that is celsius, no more public lighting of. monuments and so on. and that is all people _ monuments and so on. and that is all people in— monuments and so on. and that is all people in germany_ monuments and so on. and that is all people in germany talk— monuments and so on. and that is all people in germany talk about, - monuments and so on. and that is all people in germany talk about, it - monuments and so on. and that is all people in germany talk about, it is. people in germany talk about, it is about— people in germany talk about, it is about cotd — people in germany talk about, it is about cold showers, _ people in germany talk about, it is about cold showers, it _ people in germany talk about, it is about cold showers, it is _ people in germany talk about, it is about cold showers, it is nice - people in germany talk about, it is about cold showers, it is nice in. about cold showers, it is nice in the summer. _ about cold showers, it is nice in the summer, but— about cold showers, it is nice in the summer, but in— about cold showers, it is nice in the summer, but in the - about cold showers, it is nice in the summer, but in the winter,| about cold showers, it is nice in. the summer, but in the winter, it will be _ the summer, but in the winter, it will be hard _ the summer, but in the winter, it will be hard a_ the summer, but in the winter, it will be hard. a 20%_ the summer, but in the winter, it will be hard. a 20% of— the summer, but in the winter, it will be hard. a 20% of energy - the summer, but in the winter, it i will be hard. a 20% of energy needs to be _ will be hard. a 20% of energy needs to be saved — will be hard. a 20% of energy needs to be saved to — will be hard. a 20% of energy needs to be saved to compensate - will be hard. a 20% of energy needs to be saved to compensate the - to be saved to compensate the delivery — to be saved to compensate the delivery not _ to be saved to compensate the delivery not coming _ to be saved to compensate the delivery not coming from - to be saved to compensate the i delivery not coming from russia to be saved to compensate the - delivery not coming from russia any more, _ delivery not coming from russia any more. it— delivery not coming from russia any more. it is— delivery not coming from russia any more. it is going _ delivery not coming from russia any more, it is going to— delivery not coming from russia any more, it is going to tough. - delivery not coming from russia any more, it is going to tough. it- delivery not coming from russia any more, it is going to tough. [i is - more, it is going to tough. it is hard not to _ more, it is going to tough. it is hard not to draw _ more, it is going to tough. it is hard not to draw the _ more, it is going to tough.- hard not to draw the parallels, there enormous differences, about there enormous differences, about the energy shocks we went through in the energy shocks we went through in the 1970s. the energy shocks we went through in the 19705. i the energy shocks we went through in the 1970s. i was listening to one on the 1970s. i was listening to one on the radio reminiscing about the fact she had three hours of electricity, three hours off and three hours on again in 1973, 7a. i three hours off and three hours on again in 1973, 74.— again in 1973, 74. i was one of the school books _ again in 1973, 74. i was one of the school books by _ again in 1973, 74. i was one of the school books by candle _ again in 1973, 74. i was one of the school books by candle light - school books by candle light brigade. brute school books by candle light briaade. ~ ., ., ., ,, ., brigade. we are not talking about this, we brigade. we are not talking about this. we are _ brigade. we are not talking about this, we are not _ brigade. we are not talking about this, we are not even _ brigade. we are not talking about this, we are not even engaging i brigade. we are not talking about| this, we are not even engaging the question? we this, we are not even engaging the cuestion? ~ . , ., ., question? we are beginning to engage with it, at least _ question? we are beginning to engage with it, at least with _ question? we are beginning to engage with it, at least with the _ question? we are beginning to engage with it, at least with the cost - question? we are beginning to engage with it, at least with the cost of - with it, at least with the cost of it and that is where you can feel the fear in british politics and

other countries at the moment. bringing in what michael said about the northern ireland protocol, you begin to see the cost, squeezing out all of these other discussions about ukraine, about what on earth europe, and i include in that britain, what are they going to do about their energy suppliers. we are tied up in some of these old arguments as well. and it is presumably the kind of thing which, in theory, could provide a tremendous bond between the uk and europe. given she has been a disruptor, is it possible this is one of the things she will choose to disrupt, in other words, the hostility? she might say that is very old government, i want to be fresh and new and because my reputation and where i position myself, i am the person who could rebuild those links? she myself, i am the person who could rebuild those links?— rebuild those links? she could and there is a huge _ rebuild those links? she could and there is a huge opportunity - rebuild those links? she could and there is a huge opportunity for- there is a huge opportunity for britain outside the eu at this moment of crisis, to talk to the eu

about energy, migration and science about energy, migration and science about all of these things. but then you come back to these words, the northern ireland... the bitterness of that, the legislation and as far as we know liz truss backs controversial legislation about to come back to the house of lords in early october. until she has settled that, all this other stuff isn't accessible. and as far as we know she will take an uncompromising line which could pictures into us relations with the eu.- which could pictures into us relations with the eu. they are lookin: relations with the eu. they are looking at _ relations with the eu. they are looking at britain _ relations with the eu. they are looking at britain and - relations with the eu. they are looking at britain and they - relations with the eu. they are looking at britain and they are| relations with the eu. they are i looking at britain and they are not sure how — looking at britain and they are not sure how long _ looking at britain and they are not sure how long she _ looking at britain and they are not sure how long she will— looking at britain and they are not sure how long she will be - looking at britain and they are not sure how long she will be there. l sure how long she will be there. since _ sure how long she will be there. since brexit— sure how long she will be there. since brexit happen, _ sure how long she will be there. since brexit happen, there - sure how long she will be there. since brexit happen, there havej sure how long she will be there. - since brexit happen, there have been three prime _ since brexit happen, there have been three prime ministers, _ since brexit happen, there have been three prime ministers, so— since brexit happen, there have been three prime ministers, so why- since brexit happen, there have been three prime ministers, so why wouldl three prime ministers, so why would they agree _ three prime ministers, so why would they agree something _ three prime ministers, so why would they agree something of— three prime ministers, so why would they agree something of a _ three prime ministers, so why would they agree something of a deal- three prime ministers, so why would they agree something of a deal if. they agree something of a deal if they agree something of a deal if they don't— they agree something of a deal if they don't know _ they agree something of a deal if they don't know how— they agree something of a deal if they don't know how long - they agree something of a deal if they don't know how long she - they agree something of a deal if they don't know how long she isl they don't know how long she is going _ they don't know how long she is going to — they don't know how long she is going to stay? _ they don't know how long she is going to stay? d_ they don't know how long she is going to stay?— they don't know how long she is going to stay? a very good point. let's move _ going to stay? a very good point. let's move on — going to stay? a very good point. let's move on to _ going to stay? a very good point. let's move on to talk _ going to stay? a very good point. let's move on to talk about - going to stay? a very good point. i let's move on to talk about ukraine, if we can. stephanie, what is the potential significance around

kherson, is it about morale? i think it is both. kherson, is it about morale? i think it is both- if — kherson, is it about morale? i think it is both. if the — kherson, is it about morale? i think it is both. if the ukrainian _ kherson, is it about morale? i think it is both. if the ukrainian army, i it is both. if the ukrainian army, trip succeed _ it is both. if the ukrainian army, trip succeed in— it is both. if the ukrainian army, trip succeed in taking, _ it is both. if the ukrainian army, trip succeed in taking, getting i trip succeed in taking, getting kherson— trip succeed in taking, getting kherson back, _ trip succeed in taking, getting kherson back, which - trip succeed in taking, getting kherson back, which i - trip succeed in taking, getting kherson back, which i think. trip succeed in taking, getting kherson back, which i think it| trip succeed in taking, getting i kherson back, which i think it is not tikety— kherson back, which i think it is not tikety to _ kherson back, which i think it is not likely to happen _ kherson back, which i think it is not likely to happen quickly, i kherson back, which i think it is| not likely to happen quickly, but they are — not likely to happen quickly, but they are making _ not likely to happen quickly, but they are making very _ not likely to happen quickly, but they are making very slow- not likely to happen quickly, but i they are making very slow progress. it is they are making very slow progress. it is morally— they are making very slow progress. it is morally very— they are making very slow progress. it is morally very important - they are making very slow progress. it is morally very important for- they are making very slow progress. it is morally very important for the l it is morally very important for the ukrainians, — it is morally very important for the ukrainians, but— it is morally very important for the ukrainians, but strategically, i it is morally very important for the ukrainians, but strategically, it- it is morally very important for the ukrainians, but strategically, it isl ukrainians, but strategically, it is to show— ukrainians, but strategically, it is to show that _ ukrainians, but strategically, it is to show that thanks _ ukrainians, but strategically, it is to show that thanks to _ ukrainians, but strategically, it is to show that thanks to the - ukrainians, but strategically, it isl to show that thanks to the weapon deliveries — to show that thanks to the weapon deliveries and _ to show that thanks to the weapon deliveries and the _ to show that thanks to the weapon deliveries and the weapon - to show that thanks to the weapon deliveries and the weapon delivery that is— deliveries and the weapon delivery that is now— deliveries and the weapon delivery that is now deployed, _ deliveries and the weapon delivery that is now deployed, the - deliveries and the weapon delivery. that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very— that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart— that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart and _ that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart and they _ that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart and they are - that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart and they are using i that is now deployed, the ukrainians are very smart and they are using it| are very smart and they are using it and driving — are very smart and they are using it and driving the _ are very smart and they are using it and driving the russian _ are very smart and they are using it and driving the russian forces i are very smart and they are using it and driving the russian forces back| and driving the russian forces back and driving the russian forces back and the _ and driving the russian forces back and the russian _ and driving the russian forces back and the russian forces _ and driving the russian forces back and the russian forces have - and driving the russian forces back and the russian forces have had i and the russian forces have had significant — and the russian forces have had significant losses. _ and the russian forces have had significant losses. it _ and the russian forces have had significant losses. it is - and the russian forces have had significant losses. it is a - and the russian forces have had significant losses. it is a very. significant losses. it is a very important _ significant losses. it is a very important thing _ significant losses. it is a very important thing to _ significant losses. it is a very important thing to watch, i significant losses. it is a very| important thing to watch, but significant losses. it is a very- important thing to watch, but they say they _ important thing to watch, but they say they want _ important thing to watch, but they say they want to _ important thing to watch, but they say they want to grind _ important thing to watch, but they say they want to grind down - important thing to watch, but they say they want to grind down the i say they want to grind down the russian — say they want to grind down the russian troops _ say they want to grind down the russian troops in _ say they want to grind down the russian troops in kherson - say they want to grind down the russian troops in kherson and l say they want to grind down the | russian troops in kherson and it say they want to grind down the i russian troops in kherson and it is going _ russian troops in kherson and it is going to _ russian troops in kherson and it is going to take — russian troops in kherson and it is going to take a _ russian troops in kherson and it is going to take a very— russian troops in kherson and it is going to take a very long - russian troops in kherson and it is going to take a very long time. i going to take a very long time. michael, — going to take a very long time. michael, this— going to take a very long time. michael, this doesn't— going to take a very long time. michael, this doesn't seem i going to take a very long time. michael, this doesn't seem toi going to take a very long time. l michael, this doesn't seem to be going to take a very long time. i michael, this doesn't seem to be a war of attrition, but of war that has reached a point which we can expect little progress for quite a long time?

expect little progress for quite a lona time? , expect little progress for quite a long time?— expect little progress for quite a [on time? , ., ., ., ., long time? yes, and we also have to remember the _ long time? yes, and we also have to remember the weather, _ long time? yes, and we also have to remember the weather, which i long time? yes, and we also have to remember the weather, which we i long time? yes, and we also have to| remember the weather, which we are in the _ remember the weather, which we are in the first— remember the weather, which we are in the first week of september and bythe— in the first week of september and bythe end— in the first week of september and by the end of october, things become a bit more _ by the end of october, things become a bit more difficult for taking ground, _ a bit more difficult for taking ground, even in the southern part of ukraine _ ground, even in the southern part of ukraine it _ ground, even in the southern part of ukraine. it still feels like attrition. i note that sir lawrence freedman, — attrition. i note that sir lawrence freedman, who i follow religiously and people who watch the programme have looked him up, military security— have looked him up, military security analyst, doesn't see this going _ security analyst, doesn't see this going on— security analyst, doesn't see this going on for years and years. it is a stalemate — going on for years and years. it is a stalemate and it will ultimately end sooner rather than later, be negotiated out. but it is incredibly important — negotiated out. but it is incredibly important to take as much territory on the _ important to take as much territory on the far— important to take as much territory on the far side in that area, heading _ on the far side in that area, heading towards kherson city. but it is for _ heading towards kherson city. but it is for morale, if nothing else and to get— is for morale, if nothing else and to get the — is for morale, if nothing else and to get the territory captured before the bad _ to get the territory captured before the bad weather makes any kind of on

the bad weather makes any kind of on the ground _ the bad weather makes any kind of on the ground fighting impossible. it the ground fighting impossible. [i is the ground fighting impossible. is more the ground fighting impossible. it is more thanjust morale, it is more than symbolic. they having a disruptive effect on russia, but i find it hard to call it strategic, in a counter offensive. they are not going to get very far. the in a counter offensive. they are not going to get very far.— going to get very far. the other thin is, going to get very far. the other thing is, there _ going to get very far. the other thing is, there is _ going to get very far. the other thing is, there is an _ going to get very far. the other thing is, there is an urgency i going to get very far. the other thing is, there is an urgency as| thing is, there is an urgency as welt _ thing is, there is an urgency as well. russia keeps threatening to hold these platter sites, to ratify new russian dominated governments in the area _ new russian dominated governments in the area and _ new russian dominated governments in the area and i think they are trying to disrupt — the area and i think they are trying to disrupt that. make it seem like, you can _ to disrupt that. make it seem like, you can hold an election if you like. _ you can hold an election if you like. to— you can hold an election if you like, to ten, but we are just ten kilometres— like, to ten, but we are just ten kilometres up the road and we are coming _ kilometres up the road and we are coming. this will be a disrupting effect _ coming. this will be a disrupting effect on — coming. this will be a disrupting effect on those planned elections. the question is, what effect it might have on european morale and european solidarity over the winter and that is one of the audiences they are playing for.— and that is one of the audiences they are playing for. potentially a ve fickle they are playing for. potentially a very fickle audience. _ they are playing for. potentially a very fickle audience. even - they are playing for. potentially a very fickle audience. even more | very fickle audience. even more

fickle, it was interesting in the economist last week, trying to assess the impact of sanctions saying, yes, they have had an impact and they will have a dramatic impact in two, three years' time but that will not be enough to get russia to abandon its military operation? yes. abandon its military operation? yes, of course. people _ abandon its military operation? yes, of course. people are _ abandon its military operation? yes, of course. people are paying - abandon its military operation? yes, of course. people are paying huge i of course. people are paying huge rice for of course. people are paying huge price for it — of course. people are paying huge price for it and _ of course. people are paying huge price for it and i _ of course. people are paying huge price for it and i have _ of course. people are paying huge price for it and i have asked i of course. people are paying huge price for it and i have asked this i price for it and i have asked this question, but it is still alive question, but it is still alive question, will the kind of unity hold in those circumstances? edi hold in those circumstances? of course, you see it reflected in the polls _ course, you see it reflected in the polls in— course, you see it reflected in the polls. in germany, _ course, you see it reflected in the polls. in germany, the _ course, you see it reflected in the polls. in germany, the opinion i course, you see it reflected in thel polls. in germany, the opinion was split _ polls. in germany, the opinion was sptit~ 0f— polls. in germany, the opinion was split. of course, _ polls. in germany, the opinion was split. of course, there _ polls. in germany, the opinion was split. of course, there was - polls. in germany, the opinion was split. of course, there was support of delivering — split. of course, there was support of delivering weapons _ split. of course, there was support of delivering weapons and - split. of course, there was support of delivering weapons and the i of delivering weapons and the sanctions. _ of delivering weapons and the sanctions, they— of delivering weapons and the sanctions, they take - of delivering weapons and the sanctions, they take a - of delivering weapons and the sanctions, they take a very. of delivering weapons and the l sanctions, they take a very long time _ sanctions, they take a very long time as— sanctions, they take a very long time as you _ sanctions, they take a very long time. as you say, _ sanctions, they take a very long time. as you say, it— sanctions, they take a very long time. as you say, it has- sanctions, they take a very long time. as you say, it has effectsl sanctions, they take a very long i time. as you say, it has effects on the german— time. as you say, it has effects on the german economy, _ time. as you say, it has effects on the german economy, jobs, - time. as you say, it has effects on i the german economy, jobs, people's standard _ the german economy, jobs, people's standard of— the german economy, jobs, people's standard of living _ the german economy, jobs, people's standard of living and _ the german economy, jobs, people's standard of living and how _ the german economy, jobs, people's standard of living and how they- the german economy, jobs, people's standard of living and how they can l standard of living and how they can -et standard of living and how they can get over— standard of living and how they can get over the — standard of living and how they can get over the winter. _ standard of living and how they can get over the winter. but _ standard of living and how they can get over the winter. but you - standard of living and how they can get over the winter. but you look. standard of living and how they can| get over the winter. but you look at austria. _ get over the winter. but you look at austria. for— get over the winter. but you look at austria, for example, _ get over the winter. but you look at austria, for example, there - get over the winter. but you look at austria, for example, there polls. austria, for example, there polls are going — austria, for example, there polls are going in _ austria, for example, there polls are going in the _ austria, for example, there polls are going in the opposite - austria, for example, there pollsl are going in the opposite direction and they— are going in the opposite direction and they are — are going in the opposite direction and they are saying, _ are going in the opposite direction and they are saying, sit— are going in the opposite direction and they are saying, sit down i are going in the opposite direction and they are saying, sit down andl and they are saying, sit down and negotiate —

and they are saying, sit down and negotiate the _ and they are saying, sit down and negotiate. the british _ and they are saying, sit down andi negotiate. the british government are saying. — negotiate. the british government are saying. this— negotiate. the british government are saying, this is— negotiate. the british government are saying, this is not— negotiate. the british government are saying, this is not what- negotiate. the british government are saying, this is not what should be done _ are saying, this is not what should be done right— are saying, this is not what should be done right now— are saying, this is not what should be done right now because - are saying, this is not what should be done right now because putin l are saying, this is not what should i be done right now because putin must be done right now because putin must be in the _ be done right now because putin must be in the position— be done right now because putin must be in the position of— be done right now because putin must be in the position of losing _ be done right now because putin must be in the position of losing the - be done right now because putin must be in the position of losing the war- be in the position of losing the war and then— be in the position of losing the war and then only _ be in the position of losing the war and then only negotiations - be in the position of losing the war and then only negotiations can i and then only negotiations can start — and then only negotiations can start. ., , ., ., and then only negotiations can start. ., ., ., ., start. somehow you have to get to the situation _ start. somehow you have to get to the situation where _ start. somehow you have to get to the situation where ukraine - start. somehow you have to get to the situation where ukraine is i start. somehow you have to get to the situation where ukraine is in i start. somehow you have to get to the situation where ukraine is in a| the situation where ukraine is in a position of strength and not the weakness of its allies? i am position of strength and not the weakness of its allies?- weakness of its allies? i am not auoin to weakness of its allies? i am not going to call — weakness of its allies? i am not going to call it _ weakness of its allies? i am not going to call it wishful- weakness of its allies? i am not going to call it wishful thinking, j going to call it wishful thinking, but a nice bit of improvisation. brute but a nice bit of improvisation. we may never get that, but i was very struck by the speech sarah but how back gave this week in which he said, what is fuelling german prosperity, a couple of decades of cheap russian energy has gone for now, may never come back. one of the cornerstones of the german economic success, certainly that of the last couple of decades, it looks really in danger. that, politically, must be a risky moment for the

government?— be a risky moment for the covernment? , , ., ., government? yes, it is a fragile coalition already, _ government? yes, it is a fragile coalition already, only - government? yes, it is a fragile coalition already, only a - government? yes, it is a fragile coalition already, only a year. government? yes, it is a fragile i coalition already, only a year after having _ coalition already, only a year after having elections— coalition already, only a year after having elections in— coalition already, only a year after having elections in germany. i coalition already, only a year after| having elections in germany. also, it is not_ having elections in germany. also, it is not only— having elections in germany. also, it is not only germany _ having elections in germany. also, it is not only germany dependent i having elections in germany. also, i it is not only germany dependent on the gas _ it is not only germany dependent on the gas bulgaria, _ it is not only germany dependent on the gas. bulgaria, romania, - it is not only germany dependent on the gas. bulgaria, romania, all- it is not only germany dependent on the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of. the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of these _ the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of these countries, _ the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of these countries, olaf— the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of these countries, olaf scholz- the gas. bulgaria, romania, all of these countries, olaf scholz saysi the gas. bulgaria, romania, all ofl these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning — these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning of— these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning of time. _ these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning of time. whether- these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning of time. whether it - these countries, olaf scholz says it is a turning of time. whether it is i is a turning of time. whether it is an economic— is a turning of time. whether it is an economic model, _ is a turning of time. whether it is an economic model, peace - is a turning of time. whether it is an economic model, peace and l an economic model, peace and security, — an economic model, peace and security, 24th _ an economic model, peace and security, 24th of _ an economic model, peace and security, 24th of february - an economic model, peace and security, 24th of february hasi security, 24th of february has changed — security, 24th of february has changed everything. - security, 24th of february has changed everything.— security, 24th of february has changed everything. there is two words, changed everything. there is two words. one _ changed everything. there is two words. one is— changed everything. there is two words, one is increasingly - changed everything. there is two l words, one is increasingly present worry— words, one is increasingly present worry about the cost of energy and not having — worry about the cost of energy and not having enough energy. to what degree _ not having enough energy. to what degree does the idea of this russia pushing _ degree does the idea of this russia pushing westward and still inspiring a bit of— pushing westward and still inspiring a bit of fear in germany but also in pieces— a bit of fear in germany but also in pieces like — a bit of fear in germany but also in places like romania and bulgaria? we know how _ places like romania and bulgaria? we know how it— places like romania and bulgaria? we know how it is in poland, people are not having _ know how it is in poland, people are not having it — know how it is in poland, people are not having it and they are trying to dra- not having it and they are trying to drag the _ not having it and they are trying to drag the eu into a very strong sanctions _ drag the eu into a very strong sanctions position. but i wonder in

germany. — sanctions position. but i wonder in germany, which is obviously the key country— germany, which is obviously the key country here, if that balance still is, we _ country here, if that balance still is, we cannot allow putin to just send _ is, we cannot allow putin to just send tanks _ is, we cannot allow putin to just send tanks through another country and get _ send tanks through another country and get 700 kilometres closer to our own borders? which was, a few people had five _ own borders? which was, a few people had five months ago? that own borders? which was, a few people had five months ago?— had five months ago? that continues to be a certain _ had five months ago? that continues to be a certain complacency. - had five months ago? that continues to be a certain complacency. there i to be a certain complacency. there is the _ to be a certain complacency. there is the idea — to be a certain complacency. there is the idea that _ to be a certain complacency. there is the idea that this _ to be a certain complacency. there is the idea that this could - to be a certain complacency. there is the idea that this could never. is the idea that this could never happen — is the idea that this could never happen. there _ is the idea that this could never happen. there is— is the idea that this could never happen. there is also— is the idea that this could never happen. there is also a - is the idea that this could never happen. there is also a certaini happen. there is also a certain arrogance _ happen. there is also a certain arrogance towards _ happen. there is also a certain arrogance towards the - happen. there is also a certain arrogance towards the fears i happen. there is also a certain arrogance towards the fears in| arrogance towards the fears in poland — arrogance towards the fears in poland and _ arrogance towards the fears in poland and the _ arrogance towards the fears in poland and the fears - arrogance towards the fears in poland and the fears in - arrogance towards the fears in poland and the fears in the . arrogance towards the fears in i poland and the fears in the baltic states, _ poland and the fears in the baltic states, i— poland and the fears in the baltic states, i wouldn't _ poland and the fears in the baltic states, iwouldn't say— poland and the fears in the baltic states, i wouldn't say a _ poland and the fears in the baltic states, i wouldn't say a lack- poland and the fears in the baltic states, i wouldn't say a lack of. states, i wouldn't say a lack of empathy. _ states, iwouldn't say a lack of empathy. but— states, i wouldn't say a lack of empathy, but germany - states, i wouldn't say a lack of empathy, but germany simplyj states, i wouldn't say a lack of- empathy, but germany simply cannot inragine _ empathy, but germany simply cannot inragine that — empathy, but germany simply cannot imagine that might— empathy, but germany simply cannot imagine that might happen. - empathy, but germany simply cannot imagine that might happen. it- empathy, but germany simply cannot imagine that might happen. it has- imagine that might happen. it has been _ imagine that might happen. it has been a _ imagine that might happen. it has been a time of— imagine that might happen. it has been a time of peace _ imagine that might happen. it has been a time of peace since - imagine that might happen. it has been a time of peace since 1945. i imagine that might happen. it hasi been a time of peace since 1945. [it been a time of peace since 1945. [it has been a time of peace since 1945. has been set aside, i wouldn't say dismissed but it is not even being thought about seriously in germany. the economic model and keeping jobs and the _ the economic model and keeping jobs and the economy— the economic model and keeping jobs and the economy flowing _ the economic model and keeping jobs and the economy flowing is _ the economic model and keeping jobs and the economy flowing is a - the economic model and keeping jobs and the economy flowing is a danger. and the economy flowing is a danger

that feels— and the economy flowing is a danger that feels almost _ and the economy flowing is a danger that feels almost hypothetical. - and the economy flowing is a danger that feels almost hypothetical. it. that feels almost hypothetical. it is that feels almost hypothetical. is kinda a reminder of the fact that feels almost hypothetical.- is kinda a reminder of the fact we are only 30 odd years since the soviet union dissolved after three quarters of a century. we saw the death this week mikhail gorbachev. from germany's point of view, stephanie, has significant a figure was he, given the whole debate about german reunification, people like margaret thatcher was dead set against? margaret thatcher was dead set a . ainst? . margaret thatcher was dead set aaainst? . . , margaret thatcher was dead set aaainst? ,, ., , margaret thatcher was dead set aaainst? ,, , . margaret thatcher was dead set aaainst? ,, ,~ ., against? she was very critical of german reunification, _ against? she was very critical of german reunification, but - against? she was very critical of. german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev— german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev was _ german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev was crucial. _ german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev was crucial. i- german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev was crucial. i was - german reunification, but mikhail gorbachev was crucial. i was a - gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager— gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager in— gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager in those _ gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager in those days, - gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager in those days, but. gorbachev was crucial. i was a teenager in those days, but ii gorbachev was crucial. i was a l teenager in those days, but i do remember— teenager in those days, but i do remember the _ teenager in those days, but i do rememberthe 40 _ teenager in those days, but i do rememberthe 40 year- teenager in those days, but i do remember the 40 year paradesi teenager in those days, but i do . remember the 40 year parades and festivities— remember the 40 year parades and festivities in— remember the 40 year parades and festivities in east— remember the 40 year parades and festivities in east berlin— remember the 40 year parades and festivities in east berlin in- festivities in east berlin in october— festivities in east berlin in october 1989, _ festivities in east berlin in october 1989, and - festivities in east berlin in october 1989, and he - festivities in east berlin in october 1989, and he wasj festivities in east berlin in- october1989, and he was there and october 1989, and he was there and did speeches — october 1989, and he was there and did speeches and _ october 1989, and he was there and did speeches and then _ october 1989, and he was there and did speeches and then allegedly - october 1989, and he was there and did speeches and then allegedly set| did speeches and then allegedly set the sentence — did speeches and then allegedly set the sentence off, _ did speeches and then allegedly set the sentence off, who _ did speeches and then allegedly set the sentence off, who decides, - did speeches and then allegedly set the sentence off, who decides, it. the sentence off, who decides, it will be _ the sentence off, who decides, it will be punished _ the sentence off, who decides, it will be punished by— the sentence off, who decides, it will be punished by life. - the sentence off, who decides, it will be punished by life. not - the sentence off, who decides, it| will be punished by life. not quite what he _ will be punished by life. not quite what he said — will be punished by life. not quite what he said but— will be punished by life. not quite what he said but he _ will be punished by life. not quite what he said but he basically- will be punished by life. not quitei what he said but he basically came there _ what he said but he basically came there untit— what he said but he basically came there until the _ what he said but he basically came there until the regime _ what he said but he basically came there until the regime in _ what he said but he basically came there until the regime in east - there until the regime in east berlin, — there until the regime in east berlin, vou _ there until the regime in east berlin, you have _ there until the regime in east berlin, you have to _

there until the regime in east berlin, you have to change i there until the regime in east berlin, you have to change or there until the regime in east - berlin, you have to change or people will make _ berlin, you have to change or people will make you — berlin, you have to change or people will make you change _ berlin, you have to change or people will make you change and _ berlin, you have to change or people will make you change and you - berlin, you have to change or people will make you change and you will. will make you change and you will not be _ will make you change and you will not be tong — will make you change and you will not be long here _ will make you change and you will not be long here any— will make you change and you will not be long here any more. - will make you change and you will not be long here any more. in - will make you change and you will. not be long here any more. in 1989, there _ not be long here any more. in 1989, there was— not be long here any more. in 1989, there was the — not be long here any more. in 1989, there was the fear— not be long here any more. in 1989, there was the fear if— not be long here any more. in 1989, there was the fear if tanks _ not be long here any more. in 1989, there was the fear if tanks would - there was the fear if tanks would roll in. _ there was the fear if tanks would roll in. but— there was the fear if tanks would roll in, but they _ there was the fear if tanks would roll in, but they didn't. - there was the fear if tanks would roll in, but they didn't.— roll in, but they didn't. because the had roll in, but they didn't. because they had in _ roll in, but they didn't. because they had in prague _ roll in, but they didn't. because they had in prague and - roll in, but they didn't. because they had in prague and in - roll in, but they didn't. because i they had in prague and in hungary roll in, but they didn't. because - they had in prague and in hungary as well. it they had in prague and in hungary as well. ., . they had in prague and in hungary as well. ., they had in prague and in hungary as well. . ., they had in prague and in hungary as well. . , . ., . ., , well. it was a long time ago, but there was _ well. it was a long time ago, but there was a _ well. it was a long time ago, but there was a bit _ well. it was a long time ago, but there was a bit of— well. it was a long time ago, but there was a bit of security - well. it was a long time ago, but there was a bit of security to - well. it was a long time ago, but| there was a bit of security to note that mikhait— there was a bit of security to note that mikhail gorbachev— there was a bit of security to note that mikhail gorbachev will- there was a bit of security to note that mikhail gorbachev will not i there was a bit of security to note i that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive — that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive to — that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive to us, _ that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive to us, because - that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive to us, because he - that mikhail gorbachev will not turn aggressive to us, because he said l aggressive to us, because he said the opposite _ aggressive to us, because he said the opposite. so _ aggressive to us, because he said the opposite. so that _ aggressive to us, because he said the opposite. so that was - aggressive to us, because he said the opposite. so that was pivotali aggressive to us, because he said l the opposite. so that was pivotal to the opposite. so that was pivotal to the whole _ the opposite. so that was pivotal to the whole developer. _ the opposite. so that was pivotal to the whole developer. that- the opposite. so that was pivotal to the whole developer.— the opposite. so that was pivotal to the whole developer. that is to me, his whole significance, _ the whole developer. that is to me, his whole significance, that - the whole developer. that is to me, his whole significance, that he - his whole significance, that he allowed, maybe not withjoy, but allowed, maybe not withjoy, but allowed the dissolution of the soviet union and those countries to go away, more or less peacefully. i know the whole project and the reforms he wanted did not happen, and it ended with much disillusionment on his part, and a lack of support, as he saw it, from the west but he allowed something enormous to happen and it had an enormous to happen and it had an enormous effect on modern europe, as we can call it now, and a critical

effect on russia. at the west did not understand how big a moment and how big the change would be for russia itself. so we had the mess and the autocracy of the boris yeltsin years.— yeltsin years. one of the interesting _ yeltsin years. one of the interesting things, - yeltsin years. one of the interesting things, i - yeltsin years. one of the| interesting things, i don't yeltsin years. one of the - interesting things, i don't think anyone — interesting things, i don't think anyone was prepared, certainly gorbachev wasn't. he was prepared to let the _ gorbachev wasn't. he was prepared to let the warsaw pact lives. i don't think— let the warsaw pact lives. i don't think it _ let the warsaw pact lives. i don't think it was — let the warsaw pact lives. i don't think it was important to him, the economy— think it was important to him, the economy in— think it was important to him, the economy in russia needed attention. i say economy in russia needed attention. i say russia. — economy in russia needed attention. i say russia, i do mean in the soviet— i say russia, i do mean in the soviet union, because he was a man of the _ soviet union, because he was a man of the soviet— soviet union, because he was a man of the soviet union. but the post gorbachev, which happened very quickly. — gorbachev, which happened very quickly, he didn't expect to be the victim _ quickly, he didn't expect to be the victim of— quickly, he didn't expect to be the victim of a — quickly, he didn't expect to be the victim of a coup when he went on vacation — victim of a coup when he went on vacation in — victim of a coup when he went on vacation in crimea. it was a very, very— vacation in crimea. it was a very, very difficult _ vacation in crimea. it was a very,

very difficult time for him and i think— very difficult time for him and i think that _ very difficult time for him and i think that no one has ever seen what happened _ think that no one has ever seen what happened to a society that has been a totalitarian society, in which everyone _ a totalitarian society, in which everyone has turned on everyone else and you _ everyone has turned on everyone else and you have — everyone has turned on everyone else and you have this central kgb chequered history where anybody at any time _ chequered history where anybody at any time can be denounced and sent away _ any time can be denounced and sent away that _ any time can be denounced and sent away. that structure, political, economic— away. that structure, political, economic and social disappears, i think— economic and social disappears, i think it _ economic and social disappears, i think it makes people a little crazy — think it makes people a little crazy. and after a while they begin to want— crazy. and after a while they begin to want the — crazy. and after a while they begin to want the comfort of what was, even _ to want the comfort of what was, even if _ to want the comfort of what was, even if what was was really kind of awfut _ even if what was was really kind of awfut i_ even if what was was really kind of awful. i think that what happened post gorbachev in russia, was that people _ post gorbachev in russia, was that people gravitated ultimately towards the strong man, the strongman being the strong man, the strongman being the guy— the strong man, the strongman being the guy who was in berlin when he didn't— the guy who was in berlin when he didn't send — the guy who was in berlin when he didn't send the tanks in and not even _ didn't send the tanks in and not even as— didn't send the tanks in and not even as the head of the kgb, just a junior— even as the head of the kgb, just a junior officer. now he is one of the

most _ junior officer. now he is one of the most important people in the world, a dictator— most important people in the world, a dictator and trying to create a cross _ a dictator and trying to create a cross between a is an stalinism and that is— cross between a is an stalinism and that is vladimir putin. and it seems many— that is vladimir putin. and it seems many in _ that is vladimir putin. and it seems many in russia are ok with that. because — many in russia are ok with that. because the trauma, and i don't know what the _ because the trauma, and i don't know what the west could have done? in my podcast _ what the west could have done? in my podcast this _ what the west could have done? in my podcast this week, my guest wrote an article _ podcast this week, my guest wrote an article on _ podcast this week, my guest wrote an article on gorbachev. who knew there would _ article on gorbachev. who knew there would be _ article on gorbachev. who knew there would be recession in western europe and great _ would be recession in western europe and great britain, we needed a marshatt— and great britain, we needed a marshall plan and who knew what was needed _ marshall plan and who knew what was needed would be outside governance instead _ needed would be outside governance instead and of an alcoholic name boris _ instead and of an alcoholic name boris yeltsin ran the country into the ground — boris yeltsin ran the country into the ground and gave it away. it was ve idea the ground and gave it away. it was very idea logically _ the ground and gave it away. it was very idea logically tinged _ the ground and gave it away. it was very idea logically tinged on - the ground and gave it away. it was very idea logically tinged on the - very idea logically tinged on the west side that the free market would win and sort out russia and you just

needed the anointing of the country. instead, it was a form of asset stripping not back that up by institution building.- stripping not back that up by institution building. which has laid the foundation _ institution building. which has laid the foundation of _ institution building. which has laid the foundation of some _ institution building. which has laid the foundation of some of- institution building. which has laid the foundation of some of what . institution building. which has laidj the foundation of some of what we are seeing in ukraine and in putin's rain, iguess are seeing in ukraine and in putin's rain, i guess you would call it. just leaving that aside, let's talk about something else which is unfinished business, michael, over to you, iraq. this is a massive over simplification so shoot me down in flames if you like, but to what extent, the violence, the power of the malicious and the straightforward legacy of the way of not so much the way the invasion was conducted but the occupation was conducted?— conducted but the occupation was conducted? ., . conducted? you can trace it all the wa back. conducted? you can trace it all the way back. when _ conducted? you can trace it all the way back. when i _ conducted? you can trace it all the way back. when i was _ conducted? you can trace it all the way back. when i was talking - conducted? you can trace it all the| way back. when i was talking about totalitarianism, what i can say with real conviction, i was in the

country— real conviction, i was in the country when the saddam hussein regime _ country when the saddam hussein regime disappeared, i'm talking about— regime disappeared, i'm talking about people who had lived the previous — about people who had lived the previous decades under saddam hussein — previous decades under saddam hussein and they did not believe he was gone, — hussein and they did not believe he was gone, they actually didn't believe — was gone, they actually didn't believe it. there was never a plan and it— believe it. there was never a plan and it has— believe it. there was never a plan and it has been the curse of that country — and it has been the curse of that count . ., , ., , and it has been the curse of that count ., , ., , country. some of this goes back... you cannot — country. some of this goes back... you cannot date _ country. some of this goes back... you cannot date it _ country. some of this goes back... you cannot date it all _ country. some of this goes back... you cannot date it all to _ country. some of this goes back... you cannot date it all to the - you cannot date it all to the invasion, the mistakes and all of this, it partly reflects the sheer complexity of iraq? it this, it partly reflects the sheer complexity of iraq?— complexity of iraq? it was a wonderful — complexity of iraq? it was a wonderful words, _ complexity of iraq? it was a i wonderful words, intelligence, complexity of iraq? it was a - wonderfulwords, intelligence, there wonderful words, intelligence, there was wonderfulwords, intelligence, there was intelligence in russia as well. they need — was intelligence in russia as well. they need help because most intellectuals want to read poetry and think— intellectuals want to read poetry and think about politics, they don't want to— and think about politics, they don't want to have to do politics. if

there — want to have to do politics. if there had _ want to have to do politics. if there had been a well—organised governance structure for the first five years — governance structure for the first five years after the overthrow of saddam — five years after the overthrow of saddam hussein and easing the country— saddam hussein and easing the country towards some kind of political — country towards some kind of political stability, we would have been _ political stability, we would have been much better. that is what i'm talking _ been much better. that is what i'm talking about, yes the complexities of iragi _ talking about, yes the complexities of iraqi society and what we are seeing — of iraqi society and what we are seeing today, very specifically, is that sheer— seeing today, very specifically, is that sheer majority, basically two factions— that sheer majority, basically two factions and iran used to have its chips _ factions and iran used to have its chips down — factions and iran used to have its chips down on muqtada al—sadr and he said, chips down on muqtada al—sadr and he said. i_ chips down on muqtada al—sadr and he said. i am _ chips down on muqtada al—sadr and he said, iam iraqi nationalist and no, iwill— said, iam iraqi nationalist and no, i will find — said, iam iraqi nationalist and no, i will find other shi'ite politicians to back. there was an election— politicians to back. there was an election four years ago, i think. they— election four years ago, i think. they have — election four years ago, i think. they have never been able to seek that parliament. my point is, i do disagree — that parliament. my point is, i do disagree with you, bronwen, these problems— disagree with you, bronwen, these problems could have been... put into

a less— problems could have been... put into a less extreme, i think, if there had actually been governance as part of the _ had actually been governance as part of the post—saddam hussein occupation. of the post-saddam hussein occupation-_ of the post-saddam hussein occu ation. . , , occupation. there has been five ears of occupation. there has been five years of this — occupation. there has been five years of this word _ occupation. there has been five years of this word you - occupation. there has been five years of this word you call - years of this word you call governance, it is a phenomenally complicated country and to try to create a democracy or something that will allow the minorities there to be protected, while others win. you have got decades, generations of work. the five years were bad and... civil war that began at exactly the time those horrible pictures came out of— time those horrible pictures came out of abba grape and those people in abba _ out of abba grape and those people in abba grape, were sent into al-anda _ in abba grape, were sent into al-anda and iraq, that became isis and the _ al-anda and iraq, that became isis and the country is still recovering from _ and the country is still recovering from that — and the country is still recovering from that l— and the country is still recovering from that. ., and the country is still recovering from that. . ., , , . from that. i am not disputing that, i am from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking _ from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking about _ from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking about the _ from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking about the use -

from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking about the use of- from that. i am not disputing that, i am talking about the use of the l i am talking about the use of the word governance to solve its problems. word governance to solve its problems-— word governance to solve its roblems. ~ ., �* . . problems. we don't have much time left, problems. we don't have much time left. nobody — problems. we don't have much time left. nobody has _ problems. we don't have much time left, nobody has walked _ problems. we don't have much time left, nobody has walked away? - problems. we don't have much time left, nobody has walked away? we l left, nobody has walked away? we cannot left, nobody has walked away? , cannot call that progress, but it is not bad. it may be within reach. a lot of this depends on what happens in america. america is heading for an unpredictable time, but nobody has walked away. that an unpredictable time, but nobody has walked away.— has walked away. that is the best ho -e in has walked away. that is the best hope in the _ has walked away. that is the best hope in the situation, _ has walked away. that is the best hope in the situation, so - has walked away. that is the best | hope in the situation, so germany has walked away. that is the best i hope in the situation, so germany is still part of the process along with the members of, the permanent members of the un security council? it is good if there is not too much attention— it is good if there is not too much attention on _ it is good if there is not too much attention on these _ it is good if there is not too much attention on these talks. - it is good if there is not too much attention on these talks. we - it is good if there is not too much attention on these talks.- attention on these talks. we will have attention _ attention on these talks. we will have attention on _ attention on these talks. we will have attention on more - attention on these talks. we will have attention on more of - attention on these talks. we will have attention on more of it - attention on these talks. we will| have attention on more of it next week, but for now, thank you all very much. same time next weekend, join us then. in the meantime, goodbye.

hello there. chaotic skies this weekend. it really is a very mixed picture. there will be some sunshine, some warm sunshine, mainly across the eastern side of the uk because further west, this is where it's going to be wettest. some heavy rain and the wind picking up as the weekend goes on as well. the reason for this very mixed picture is a big area of low pressure that's just sitting there to the west of the uk and around it we're pushing in these bands of showers or longer spells of rain and some freshening breezes as well. so we do have some sunshine across eastern areas through the rest of today, but maybe picking up some heavy thundery showers as we head through the afternoon. wetter weather out towards the west into western parts of england, wales, affecting southwest scotland and northern ireland. these areas particularly wet and cold too, 15 or 16 degrees in northern ireland, probably making the low 20s

in northern scotland, and the mid 20s in east anglia and the southeast where there should be very few showers. we've got more rain though, continuing into tonight, again pushing northwards across more of scotland and returning into northern ireland over the irish sea into western parts of england and wales. southerly breeze tends to pick up overnight so it's going to be quite a warm night and temperatures in the south no lower than 16 or 17 degrees. but tomorrow we're going to find some rain this time across northern parts of scotland and we start wet in northern ireland. that rain gets pushed further north into scotland. and as the breeze picks up, we're going to find some showery bursts of rain affecting some western parts of england, wales again, looks pretty dry for eastern areas of england. so temperatures here again reaching the mid 20s. but after the early rain in northern ireland, we should see some sunshine. so it's going to be a warmer day than today. but that low pressure is not really going anywhere at all. it continues to spiral around to the west of the uk early next week, continuing to dominate our weather. the details are going to change a bit, but we look like we're going to have some heavy rain, perhaps thundery pushing

northwards into scotland. the winds picking up here in the southwest. gales are quite possible and this rain will turn heavy and thundery. there'll be some sunshine around elsewhere, maybe a few sharp showers breaking out as well. but because it's a southerly breeze, it's quite warm air for this time of the year. temperatures the low to mid 20s, but with low pressure dominating through the rest of next week, it's still unsettled. some showers, longer spells of rain, some sunshine, and slowly it will be turning a bit cooler.

this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley and these are the latest headlines in the uk and around the world: mourners pay their respects to the last soviet leader, mikhail gorbachev, ahead of his funeral. i'm glad people are paying tribute to the man who changed russian history because russia has a very bad record of commemorating people who were so important. moscow blames maintenance problems forfailing to resume the main pipeline that transports gas from russia to europe after a three—day closure. more than half of manufacturers in the uk say they may have to cut production or close down completely because of rocketing energy bills. ready for lift—off again. nasa prepares to make a second attempt later to launch its most powerful rocket to the moon — five days after technical problems

scuppered the first.