this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues, straight after hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. in three weeks' time, italians vote in a general election. now, if the opinion polls are to be believed, the country is about to embrace a political movement with its roots in post—war fascism. what would that mean for italy and for europe? well, my guest today, here at the ambrosetti forum — a sort of italy—style davos gathering — is enrico letta, a former italian prime minister and leader of the centre—left democratic party. is his effort to keep the far right out of power doomed to fail?

enrico letta, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much for the invitation. we appreciate your time, particularly because you are in the middle of a fiercely—fought election campaign. would you accept that right now, you in the centre—left look as though you are going to lose? no, i think we will win. how can you think that, when the raw mathematics of this election look so bad for you? and i say that because the right has coordinated, it has organised, there is a very clear coalition of interests between all the right—wing parties. they are fighting as a team. you, on the left, are not. there are two reasons. first reason is the fact that there's 40% of the people saying that they will abstain, or they are not decided. they have not decided what they want to do. second, because the unity

of the right is a fake. they are united today, but on any topic, they are starting to be divided. and we have three weeks to show that the unity is a fake unity, and we are able to be more accountable, more linear, more able to... mr letta, you may point to what you call the "fakeness" of their unity, but i come back to mathematics. the truth is, they have formed a coalition of interests, which means they are in very good position to win, particularly in the first—past—the—post constituencies, because they've done a deal, that's the point. and for those watching and listening, it is clear that the brothers of italy, salvini's league, and berlusconi's forza italia have thought long and hard about how to win, and win big. and it looks as though they've

got a formula that will work. i'm not saying that they are not in good position. i think they are in good position because their alliance is bigger than our alliance. that's the point. but the electoral campaign is still there. we have three weeks, we will keep fighting. some of your own colleagues think that you and senior leaders in the progressive centre—left have failed the italian people. i'm going to quote you nicola zingaretti, who is a senior figure in your own democratic party. he says, and i'm quoting him, he is "ashamed of the amount "of internal wrangling on the left". are you ashamed, too? it was a declaration by zingaretti when he was leader before me, when he decided to resign. and then, he said the situation is a very bad situation.

and he said exactly what you said. then they asked me to come and to try to unify the party, and to change the mood. so, this declaration is exactly what was the situation before. but with respect, my point is it hasn't really changed. for example, you tried to do a deal with the etzioni party, one of the smaller parties on the centre—left. you declared you had a deal that was going to help you win this election. within, i think, five days, that deal collapsed. the deal collapsed, but just for one part. the deal was with etzioni and piu europa, two parties united. calenda and emma bonino, together. calenda decided not to stay in the deal. he signed the deal, and then, he left. but emma bonino and piu europa decided to stay. but what do you think the italian people make of it, when you do deals in the centre—left, and then, they collapse within literally days? i think they will sanction the one who decided to leave the deal.

isn't the biggest problem of all, coming back to the mathematics — and you say this election is about more than mathematics — but isn't the biggest problem of all, that you have ruled out working with the one party that might make a real difference to your chances of overall success? that is the five star movement. you know, er... five stars movement, and conte, the leader of the five star movement, decided to topple draghi's government. we were the pillar of draghi's government. do you think is possible to say, "ok, we will continue, "and we will work together" if such a divide on the main topic, supporting or toppling a government? so, they decided, they took the decision, they took their own responsibility. and we were... it was, for what we considered, it was necessary to take consequence of that. right, but i understand

why you might feel bitterness and resentment, you were a great... it's not resentment, it's politics. but politics is about winning. and without five star, without the capacity to do a deal with them, you cannot win. let's be honest, you cannot win. but they decided to leave the coalition, because they decided to... but that's the past, that's the past, mr letta. the future is that if you are to be the next prime minister of italy... july the 20th is not the past. it was exactly what happened, to have this crazy situation. you know, we had draghi as prime minister. draghi means to have ronaldo or messi as prime minister. and they decided to topple draghi and to say, "now, game over with draghi". i think it was an irresponsible choice. and we decided to say, "ok, we are accountable. "linear continuity. "we think that we were right, not wrong in the decision.

"you were wrong when you decided to topple "the government." would it be fair to say that your chief tactic in this election campaign is try to scare italians? try to frighten them with the prospect of a far—right government, which some in your own party describe as neo—fascist? it is the reality. i think it's not a scare, it's not scaring. the reality is the fact that italy will choose in the next elections. as you said, there's the constituencies, so the first—past—the—post constituencies, then the situation is a situation in which we have their proposal, our proposal. their proposal means to be, for instance, europe. their europe means poland, hungary, orban. the idea to be against brussels, against the

communitarian way to work. our idea of europe means brussels, the relationship with the main european countries, so france, germany, spain. for us, if we win, italy will be in the first division in the europe, in the european union of the first division. if they win, italy will pass into a second division, in a different way to think about europe. this is just one example, i give you a second example — very important also for young people. they are in complete denial mode on climate change. we are in a boot on climate change that fighting against climate change is the main mission of our generation. and i'm sure that young people, for instance, young people, i trust young people, i'm confident that young people will support us. because we are showing that our commitment on climate

change is much better and important than their commitment. we'll come back to the substance, but i... actually, if i will, if i may, i'm going to repeat my question about your message on fear. one of your colleagues, laura boldrini, she says this. "giorgia meloni", she says, leader of the brothers of italy, er... ..has never had a reckoning with her movements past. "brothers of italy", says ms boldrini, "is infiltrated by declared fascist elements". is that your position? er...brothers of italy had a past, and a relationship with the past. this relationship with the past is clear, is there, and italians are aware of that. my point is that we will win if we show to the italian people that they are a danger for italy of today because

of their position of today. their position of today are a danger for the country, because they will put the country in a corner at european level, because they will create a problem on climate change, on the economy. the economy will, er... you know, they were in government ten years ago. ten years ago, they were in... 11 years ago, they were in government. and they bring...they brought italy close to bankruptcy. they will bring italy in a situation in which, on individual rights, for instance, part of the country won't be part of the family of being part of this community. which...which parts of the country? the lgbtqi, for instance, community. they are against these kind of individual rights. their attitude is an attitude that is not the fair attitude that we want to have and to apply. but what we... this is just one example

that i am giving you. meloni says she represents a patriotic italy, an italy of family values, of christian, conservative values. and it seems that is resonating with the italian public. how do you, on the progressive, the centre—left, fight that message? because we think that their idea, the idea of salvini, for instance, to say our model is the hungarian, orban family model, is not the one that we would like to support. this model is the model where women are at home, not working. this model is a model in which women educated is not the mission for the country. this model is a model where the possibility to have equal opportunities is not the way in which the countries have to work. frankly speaking, for us,

it is the moon and the sun. it's a completely different mood. and we will work to explain to the people the difference between us and them. but, with respect, there is evidence that many italians see you as a classic voice of the italian elite. it is fair to say that you've actually just come from an academicjob in paris, where you were working at sciences po, one of the leading universities in europe. now, that's impressive, but it doesn't indicate that you are in touch with the grassroots, with the ordinary lives of italian people. and the brothers of italy have an extraordinary grassroots organisation, where they clearly have devoted themselves to listening to and talking with ordinary working italians. maybe you're out of touch. no. because we won all the most—important elections at local level in the last two years.

it is the demonstration that, er...the mayors in italy, we won the largest part of the mayors in italy. so, when we go to the ground, we are showing that our party is a party of the people. the party where boots on the ground, we are there. we are a very popular party. and i have to say also, our main proposal is to say on the tax side of the programme, is to lower taxes on labour, because we think that the main problem of the country in italy is the fact that taxes on labour are higher than taxes on finance. and we think that we have to push, to boost labour workers, and, er...we think that is our, also, mission. we are a party coming from the progressive side. mm. and progressive side

means also, er... ..having the possibility to help workers to have a better life. but you are also seen as the party, perhaps, of the status quo. you talk about your admiration for draghi. frankly, in recent years, italy has not looked, to many italians, like a country that has solutions to problems. take one big challenge — migration. i... if one looks at the figures... hang on. if one looks at the figures most recent, this year, in the first half of the year, 3a,000 people arrived, migrants, arrived in italy by sea. much higher than the...year previous. it's a problem that is growing, and the current status quo doesn't appear to have answers. the right say they will completely change the situation by a naval blockade. by a naval blockade,

ensuring that no migrants get into italian waters. you don't have a solution. that is a fake solution. you know very well the naval blockage is a fake solution, useful only for political rallies before the electoral campaign. there's no naval blockage that is possible to be applied. so, you're saying there is no solution to the migration problem? no, there is no solution with the naval blockage. it's just an idea for... ..a rhetoric idea for propaganda during the electoral campaign. the migration problem needs a solution at european level. but you mentioned... but with respect, we've heard that year on year... no. and none of the solutions that the commission, that brussels have come up with, have worked. none of them. you mentioned figures that are not showing that there's an invasion of italy. we are not under invasion. the main problem on migration, if i have to say, the main problem on migration

is the hundreds of thousands of young italians leaving the country to go abroad to find a job. this is my mission, our mission, is to solve the problem of migration. that is the main problem of migration — to help these young people to find a solution, to find a job. the rest is manageable. is manageable with the cooperation with the rest of europe. of course, you mentioned the problems of the european union on that, and you're right. i'm not, er...saying there's no problem at european level. but the main problem, the main problem is the fact that europe needs decisions and unanimity on these topics. but how urgent is this problem? because we see in lampedusa, for example... it is not the... we see ordinary italian people saying enough is enough. we see violence, frankly, on the streets of italian towns and cities... yes, but it is not...

..directed at migrants. it is not the number one problem, even for italians. if you ask in the polls, which is the main problem today for italy, jobs, energy costs, these are the two problems. migrants, we are talking migrants because we are in an electoral campaign, and because salvini and meloni are raising the flag because they want to scare people. they want to scare people. but talking of scaring people, you have suggested that if giorgia meloni becomes prime minister of italy, italy will no longer get the huge financial support that is currently coming from the european union. what — 200 billion euros of support italy is going to get over the coming years, you say that will be cut off. giorgia meloni says that is entirely untrue. she is committed, she says, to working with the eu and respecting the eu's demands of italy. it's not true. she said she wants to

renegotiate this deal. and i... she said she will try to work with brussels. she didn't say she'd walk away from the table. it is not renegotiable, because this deal is done. the italian parliament voted with a large majority. she didn't. she didn't, because she were at the opposition, against draghi. but the rest of the majority, even salvini and berlusconi, in her, er...today, support, they voted in favour of the plan. and the plan is there. this european money is the future of the country. mm. if they lose this money... if they win the election, if they lose this money because they are mismanaging the relationship with brussels, the responsibility will be enormous. so, my point is that they have... if... whoever wins the elections has one mission — to apply this money, this plan, and to show that, maybe for the first time,

italians are good in spending european money. there's one important aspect of this we haven't touched on. that is italy's international role. and right now, of course, as part of the european union and nato, italy is one of the partners confronting vladimir putin's aggression in ukraine. your message, again, talking of fear, your message seems to be that nato partners, eu partners, should fear that the right would fundamentally change italy's position on putin, on the ukraine war. what evidence do you have for that? it is not because of meloni on that, because meloni took a right position, even if she were at the opposition, she were in the opposition, but she supported draghi's government in taking the position against putin. my fear is about salvini and berlusconi. salvini and berlusconi

took very ambiguous positions in these months. very ambiguous positions. and i'm sure that if the right wins in italy, the one who will be the happiest the night of 25th september, who will be the happiest the night of the 25th of september would be vladimir putin. the second one will be trump and the third will be orban, but the first one will be putin. you've claimed that russia is meddling in this election. is meddling in this election, just as you claimed that russia meddled and tried to facilitate the downfall of mario draghi. where is your evidence? because i have seen you produce no specific evidence. but the most important evidence is the fact that the energy cost crisis is happening now. and italy is the country, with germany... but... yes, yes, it is now. and... but that's not evidence that russia is actively

trying to intervene in italian politics. but this point about the energy cost, as you know, is the most important point of the electoral campaign. if they continue to put the country in difficulty because of the cost of energy, that will create, for the right in italy, an enormous boost. at the beginning of the war, on the eve of the invasion, i believe italy's economy was, in terms of its usage of gas, 40% reliant on russian gas. in this coming winter, you are not going to have access to that level of russian gas. you may not get much russian gas at all. what is your prescription for how italy copes with this massive energy shock? there are three main issues. first issue, we have to continue the diversification that draghi's government conducted. that means, of course, changing

the way and the countries. no more russia, and more angola or more mozambique or more algeria. having the gas terminals to, er...have the gas arriving from these countries. there are two main terminals. we are building two more terminals in the country. the second point is the price cap at european level. that is exactly what von der leyen and the rest of the european leaders are discussing in these very days. and the third point, we have to help italian companies, and we have to help them cutting taxes on energy. otherwise, the italian companies' competitiveness will be at risk. and i have to say, it is not just for italy, also for the rest of europe. if one looks at the big three west european countries — france, germany, italy, inside the eu, italy could be

on the threshold of becoming the first of them to embrace a far—right government. the stakes are high. do you think the italian people understand that? the italian people are wise, and i'm sure that they will understand. until now, maybe because we were in august and the electoral campaign just started, the awareness is not complete. this is why, i think, our chances are there, and we will keep fighting until the last day of the campaign to make italian people completely aware. if you lose, how worried about the consequences are you? of course, it depends on the result, er... ..but i am confident that the country will understand in the next three weeks. and if we lose, of course, we will keep fighting

from the opposition. enrico letta, i thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. thank you. low pressure has dominated the weather story so far this week and don't expect any significant change over the next few days to come. if you see skies like this, you will know what is coming, some pretty intense possibly thundery downpours are likely to continue. with the wind is strongest in the far south—west, because you are closest to the centre of the low and on that southern flank of the low is where we will see

the strongest winds, may be gas in excess of 30 miles an hour at times, that will dry in the balance of showers around low pressure, like we had seen over the last few days. one band of rain in the final that scotland, another hot on its heels, further showers in the south—west and some will move inland as we go through the afternoon. blustery winds, particularly when you get the showers, the strongest of the winds are likely to be down around the southwest. in terms of the feel of the weather, perhaps not quite as humid, a little bit fresher, 21 degrees generally but we might see highs across england of 23 celsius. into the evening, the risk of some sharp, thundery downpours coming in across the channel, medically where we have seen the warmest of the weather, but the story will slowly start to change as we move out of wednesday into thursday. our area of low pressure will drift further east, centring itself across london and wales.

the winds were full little lighter and we won't see quite as many organised bands of rain. the winds will fall. yes, we have one band moving its way through north—east england and scotland, but the showers are hit and miss across england and wales. not all of us will see them, but if you do catch one or two of them, it could be quite potent, top temperatures 15—20 celsius. moving out of friday, that low pressure finally starts to ease away. we'll see this little ridge of high pressure building from the west. mist and fog could become an issue as we get into the weekend. but saturday into sunday, certainly a drier story. in terms of the feel of the weather, not quite as humid, but still those temperatures peaking in the low 20s. take care.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: a new prime minister in number ten. liz truss promises a bold plan to see britain through a range of challenges. iam i am confident that together we can ride out the storm, we can rebuild our economy, and we can become the modern, brilliant britain that i know we can be. after a visit to ukraine's zaporizhzhia power plant in russian—held territory, the un's nuclear watchdog calls for a safety zone. canadian police urge local

residents to stay indoors as the manhunt continues for one of two suspects following a mass stabbing.