this bbc the and all news m the to- of the hour as at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hello, and welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. a few days ago, one of ukraine's wooden ballet dancers was killed while serving in the ukrainian army. art and culture are not immune from the impact of war. —— a leading belly

dancers. alexei ratmansky is a world—renowned choreographer with roots in both russia and ukraine, once director of the bolshoi ballet in moscow, and now putting on a special production of gisele with the united ukrainian ballet to show the world ukrainian culture lives on. has ballet become a battleground? alexei ratmansky, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, an honour to be here. you hardtalk. thank you very much, an honour to be here.— an honour to be here. you are here in london _ an honour to be here. you are here in london because - an honour to be here. you are here in london because you i here in london because you mounting this extraordinary set of performances of gisele.

performed by ukrainian dancers. can you go about putting on how can you go about putting on a performance with ukrainians when their country is at war? there was an extraordinary project, it started in march, i received a call from my friend in holland, she is a former principal ballerina, and she said, i have some ukrainian dancers who are refugees, and i would like them to do one of your ballet is, if you don't mind. i was absolutely supportive of the idea wholeheartedly. at the beginning it was just some women, and then as time passed, we received men who needed special mission to leave the country. special mission to leave the count . �* , ., special mission to leave the count .�* , ., country. because men are you're reuuired country. because men are you're required to — country. because men are you're required to stay _ country. because men are you're required to stay in _ country. because men are you're required to stay in ukraine - required to stay in ukraine under 16 years of age, they are expected to stay and fight.

that is correct. 50 expected to stay and fight. that is correct.— expected to stay and fight. that is correct. 50 these male dancers have _ that is correct. 50 these male dancers have special- dancers have special dispensation.- dancers have special dispensation. dancers have special disensation. , , ., dispensation. they were sent on a mission to _ dispensation. they were sent on a mission to show— dispensation. they were sent on a mission to show the _ dispensation. they were sent on a mission to show the world - a mission to show the world that ukrainian culture is alive, and to represent ukraine and the culture.— alive, and to represent ukraine and the culture. you are one of the world's _ and the culture. you are one of the world's top _ and the culture. you are one of| the world's top choreographers. is it possible for you to meet your own exacting standards in these difficult circumstances? it is a very different project from other than i have done before, and we all do it for other reasons. and it is not a company, it is a group of dancers who happen to be together. we do it for ukraine,

and actually,...— together. we do it for ukraine, and actually,... who had chosen to no and actually,... who had chosen to go and _ and actually,... who had chosen to go and fight _ and actually,... who had chosen to go and fight at _ and actually,... who had chosen to go and fight at the _ and actually,... who had chosen to go and fight at the front - and actually,... who had chosen to go and fight at the front in . to go and fight at the front in the east of the country, was killed. this cannot be easy to focus. , . ., killed. this cannot be easy to focus. , . . ., focus. very challenging. i have famil in focus. very challenging. i have family in kyiv. _ focus. very challenging. i have family in kyiv. every— focus. very challenging. i have family in kyiv. every morning, | family in kyiv. every morning, you want to know which cities were bombed, how many people

were killed. you have a routine, but that is the reality. routine, but that is the reality-— routine, but that is the reali . ., reality. the impact of the death of— reality. the impact of the death of the _ reality. the impact of the death of the dancer - reality. the impact of the death of the dancer who l reality. the impact of the death of the dancer who i reality. the impact of the - death of the dancer who i know you worked with and many of your company will have worked with. , ., , ., your company will have worked with. , ., ., with. yes, we have some of his former colleagues _ with. yes, we have some of his former colleagues in _ with. yes, we have some of his former colleagues in our - former colleagues in our company. he is a brave man, a hero. there was another man who fought and died, it dancer, backin fought and died, it dancer, back in february i think. and there are other dancers, numerous musicians, actors, directors, who feel the need to defend the country with arms. i

don't know what else to say. i can feel how... we _ don't know what else to say. i can feel how... we are - don't know what else to say. i can feel how... we are also i can feel how... we are also grateful _ can feel how... we are also grateful to _ can feel how... we are also grateful to these _ can feel how... we are also grateful to these brave - can feel how... we are also - grateful to these brave people. your own background is fascinating in the context of what is happening, because you have family roots both in ukraine and russia. in professional terms, you are sort of more russian and ukrainian in that your dancing was land in moscow, you have a very big connection with the bolshoi ballet where you are artistic director, and you were in moscow working with the bolshoi ballet are infected fed to the 24th when vladimir putin launched the invasion. what will your immediate feelings and reactions then? —— on february 24. it and reactions then? -- on february 24-— and reactions then? -- on february 24. it felt like the world was _ february 24. it felt like the world was crushing. - february 24. it felt like the world was crushing. you i february 24. it felt like the i world was crushing. you could not comprehend how it was possible. it sounded surreal. however, for a couple of months

before the beginning of the war, the president of the united states was telling the world that it was going to happen. world that it was going to ha en. ., , happen. there were warnings, but ou happen. there were warnings, but you stayed _ happen. there were warnings, but you stayed until _ happen. there were warnings, but you stayed until february | but you stayed until february 24. a, , but you stayed until february 24. y a, i, , 24. nobody really believes it was going — 24. nobody really believes it was going to _ 24. nobody really believes it was going to happen. - 24. nobody really believes it was going to happen. my - 24. nobody really believes it. was going to happen. my family in kyiv, we talked every day, my friends and relatives in moscow. when i flew from york, when i have been based for more than 12 years, to moscow, i want to be bolshoi ballet management that have something like that happened, i would need to leave immediately, they said, what are you talking about? it is not going to happen. sojust a about? it is not going to happen. so just a week before, i think, when vladimir putin announced the support of the independence of the so—called

republics, it was clear that it was really serious, it was going to happen tomorrow. haifa going to happen tomorrow. how difficult a decision _ going to happen tomorrow. how difficult a decision was it for you to quit? because as soon as the tanks cross that border, you walked away. i the tanks cross that border, you walked away.— the tanks cross that border, you walked away. i did, i got a call from _ you walked away. i did, i got a call from my — you walked away. i did, i got a call from my wife _ you walked away. i did, i got a call from my wife early - you walked away. i did, i got a call from my wife early in - you walked away. i did, i got a call from my wife early in the i call from my wife early in the morning, she said that if you haveis morning, she said that if you have is bombarded, and i said, and i said, i'm leaving. itook my artistic team with me. the bolshoi ballet arranged the tickets. 50 bolshoi ballet arranged the tickets. , �* , . tickets. 50 they didn't try and stop you? — tickets. 50 they didn't try and stop you? no. _ tickets. 50 they didn't try and stop you? no, probably - tickets. 50 they didn't try and i stop you? no, probably because i want stop you? no, probably because i want you _ stop you? no, probably because i want you beforehand _ stop you? no, probably because i want you beforehand -- - stop you? no, probably because| i want you beforehand -- warned i want you beforehand —— warned them. i want you beforehand -- warned them. ~ , ., ., i want you beforehand -- warned them. ~ y., ., ., i want you beforehand -- warned them. ~ ., ., ., them. were you fearful at that oint? it them. were you fearful at that point? it was _ them. were you fearful at that point? it was a _ them. were you fearful at that point? it was a horrific- them. were you fearful at that point? it was a horrific day, i point? it was a horrific day, “ust point? it was a horrific day, just horrific, _ point? it was a horrific day, just horrific, but _ point? it was a horrific day, just horrific, but nothing i point? it was a horrific day, | just horrific, but nothing felt important except the safety of my family in kyiv, and the existence of the country, of my country. so my history was a

bolshoi and with the russian ballet, and i knew right away that it ballet, and i knew right away thatitis ballet, and i knew right away that it is terminated now, it is not going to continue. i sort of have to cut my past... that is a very interesting way of putting it, because you were deeply embedded in the russian artistic establishment. i mean, you don't get to be artistic director of the bolshoi without having a massive network of connections, of being deeply respected in moscow for your artistic achievement, now how do you feel about all of that professional commitment, life, and energy you gave to russia? on one hand, i grew up as, you know, russian ballet is is a very big part of the world.

arguably russia takes ballet more seriously than any other country in the world. absolutely, yeah. classical ballet is russian. well, half of it is french, but... in that sense, of it is french, but... in that sense. in — of it is french, but... in that sense. in a _ of it is french, but... in that sense, in a sort— of it is french, but... in that sense, in a sort of— sense, in a sort of professional sense, sense, in a sort of professionalsense, did sense, in a sort of professional sense, did you feel yourself to be russian? these are questions that i still don't have answers to, because i think i need time to glue my identity together. most of my ballets are choreographed to russian music, or russian themes. �* , ., ., to russian music, or russian themes. �* y., ., ., , , themes. and your whole approach to ballet, themes. and your whole approach to ballet. as _ themes. and your whole approach to ballet, as i _ themes. and your whole approach to ballet, as i understand - themes. and your whole approach to ballet, as i understand it, i to ballet, as i understand it, is to respect tradition and the past, and to pour over the notes made by some of the greatest choreographers of the past, and to be very serious about the history, particularly of russian ballet, and now all of russian ballet, and now all of that must feel very strange. it does. it does feel strange.

but i tell myself that the russian culture of the past, it doesn't have anything to do with vladimir putin's crimes, crimes of the russian army in ukraine. and i am going to defend russian culture now... you are? you feel it is important to defend russian culture? ., ., , , ., culture? not for myself. i am not an advocate _ culture? not for myself. i am not an advocate for— culture? not for myself. i am not an advocate for russian l not an advocate for russian culture. it will survive. each winning culture and needs help at the moment, because it is in danger. ukrainian cultural institutions are destroyed. artists can't practice their art. they are dying on the battlefield. that is much more important. and i don't think in the nearfuture we important. and i don't think in the near future we are going to

see big tourists in the region. that is ok, they will survive. i think the world has to make sure that ukraine wins, and this dangerous russian fascism is stopped. in this dangerous russian fascism is stopped-— is stopped. in that very statement, _ is stopped. in that very statement, you - is stopped. in that very statement, you have i is stopped. in that very - statement, you have expressed your convictions, in a sense your convictions, in a sense your activism as a campaigner against this war and against vladimir putin. you have expectations of russian artists. what do you expect from them, in terms of a public statement, a declaration, a position on what is happening? in february, when it all started, ifirst in february, when it all started, i first remember, in february, when it all started, ifirst remember, i remember my first thoughts is, thatis remember my first thoughts is, that is the end of putin because i thought millions of

russians would be out on the streets to protest. there were hundreds of russians, not millions... hundreds of russians, not millions. . ._ hundreds of russians, not millions... and to be fair to them, they _ millions... and to be fair to them, they were _ millions... and to be fair to i them, they were extraordinarily brave people, because they got arrested. ~ , , , arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week. _ arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week. i — arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week, i think _ arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week, i think the - arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week, i think the state i first week, i think the state was just watching them, and then the rest started, the new laws that do not allow them to call the war the war. so you can be arrested for that. you cannot expect people to protest when they face imprisonment or other dangers for themselves and their families. other dangers for themselves and theirfamilies. but other dangers for themselves and their families.— and their families. but you have expected _ and their families. but you have expected that, i and their families. but you. have expected that, haven't you? because you have made statements saying you are deeply disappointed with those artists who have remained silent, and that silence is not an option in the current situation.— an option in the current situation. , . , situation. let me explain my position- _ situation. let me explain my position- i— situation. let me explain my position. i think— situation. let me explain my position. i think if— situation. let me explain my position. i think if the i position. i think if the artists in russia, those who

represent the great russian culture, want to continue going back and forth and publicly support putin, that is not acceptable. it cannot be accepted by the west, i think, because of obvious reasons. it is not always as simple as that, though, is it? let's take a specific case, i would be interested to know what you think of it. one of the great sopranos, admired and loved in russia, and in concert halls she plays in and around the world. she, after the invasion, she said she condemned the war, she said she condemned the war, she did not want war. but she didn't do was condemn or criticise vladimir putin himself. it seems she managed to upset everybody, those in russia were angry that she condemned the war, those outside russia wanted much more

in terms of a criticism of vladimir putin. she now seems to have been "cancelled" both inside russia and in many concert halls outside russia. is that fair? i wish she had made a clearer statement. i think i desire to avoid consequences on both sides made her statement really unclear, and confusing, and thatis unclear, and confusing, and that is why she is facing the situation. i5 that is why she is facing the situation-— situation. is it fair, and asked us— situation. is it fair, and asked us with - situation. is it fair, and asked us with all i situation. is it fair, and i asked us with all respect for everything you were doing, but is it fairfor you to draw those documents sitting here with me in london, living in new york, based in the west, is it fairfor new york, based in the west, is it fair for you to tell russian artists who live, and have family inside russia, to see

the consequences of speaking out against putin, is it fair for you to criticise them or judge them?— for you to criticise them or judge them? probably not, because they _ judge them? probably not, because they are _ judge them? probably not, because they are not i judge them? probably not, because they are not safe, | judge them? probably not, i because they are not safe, but when you compare their situation to the situation of ukrainian artists, i think the judgment is more clear. we discussed the life and death of oleksandr shapoval. many institutions of historical significance are destroyed. i talked about the years you spent in russia, the network you have built up inside the artistic community. because of your stand and your expectations of others, have you lost in relationships, lost friendships, because of this?

yeah, i lost a lot of friendships. and that is very hard, it is very painful. flan hard, it is very painful. can ou hard, it is very painful. can you tell— hard, it is very painful. can you tell me _ hard, it is very painful. can you tell me about - hard, it is very painful. can you tell me about some of the conversations you have had? with people used to regard as friends? when it all started, because it was so hectic and inexplicable, ballet dancers and all of us concentrate on ballet, so focused from a very early age, we live in a very narrow world, you need to practice, you need to prepare for performances, and that takes your whole attention, so very few �*the attention, so very few of the ballet people that i know are political at all, most of them are just, political at all, most of them arejust, you know, have a passing by... so i was writing letters to my close friends, dancers who i admired, worked very closely, so on, guys,

listen, maybe you don't have any information, you don't know what is going on, try not to be emotional, but ijust give them facts. how many killed, how many are refugees... how many killed, how many are refugees- - -_ refugees... and what was their resonse refugees... and what was their response to — refugees... and what was their response to facts? _ refugees... and what was their response to facts? silence. i refugees... and what was their response to facts? silence. 0r| response to facts? silence. or let's not mix _ response to facts? silence. or let's not mix politics _ response to facts? silence. or let's not mix politics and i response to facts? silence. or let's not mix politics and art. . let's not mix politics and art. we are doing out, we want to concentrate on that.- we are doing out, we want to concentrate on that. that is an interesting _ concentrate on that. that is an interesting point. _ concentrate on that. that is an interesting point. i— concentrate on that. that is an interesting point. ijust - concentrate on that. that is an interesting point. i just want i interesting point. ijust want to ask you whether you now feel there is a basis for, if i can use a word like this, derussifying the artistic output that we see in the west? for example, the bolshoi ballet was cancelled from performances in london in cardiff, they cardiff a tchaikovsky concert.

you are performing to sell, one of those ballets that is not russian, is that deliberate? —— performing giselle. russian, is that deliberate? -- performing giselle.— performing giselle. swanley, the most famous _ performing giselle. swanley, the most famous of - performing giselle. swanley, the most famous of all i performing giselle. swanley, | the most famous of all ballets was always used as a political tool —— swan lake. so today, performing swan lake hurt millions of people. so so today, performing swan lake hurt millions of people.- hurt millions of people. so you do not want — hurt millions of people. so you do not want to _ hurt millions of people. so you do not want to see _ hurt millions of people. so you do not want to see it? - hurt millions of people. so you do not want to see it? it i hurt millions of people. so you do not want to see it? it is i do not want to see it? it is much more _ do not want to see it? it is much more computer i do not want to see it? it is much more computer than that.

but what does tchaikovsky have with billy magen, with what is going on now? he is the most sensitive and human of all composers. the bolshoi ballet orany composers. the bolshoi ballet or any other big cultural institutions in russia, they are state funded. they pay the state as well from their benefits, and this money is used for killing ukrainians. a lot of my ballets were performed by russian companies. when the war started, i asked them to suspend my ballets. they have licence, i cannot do anything about it. and they sort of agreed, then they started performing again. the knowledge that the taxes the dancers pay and the spectators pay anti—theatre pays front benefits are used to kill my

fellow countrymen as horrific. the bolshoi ballet is probably the most renowned ballet company in the world. you have a long association with it. i just wonder whether you feel it is impossible for you to imagine ever working with them again, or indeed frankly ever returning to russia again? until the war ends, and there is a clear denouncement of what happened, and putin is sued for his crimes, not only him but the army of propagandists, the military, and his government, i don't think it would be possible for me to go back. but

i hope that russia will change and i can return, because it is and i can return, because it is a part of me. and i can return, because it is a part of me-_ and i can return, because it is a part of me. how ambitious are ou for a part of me. how ambitious are you for the _ a part of me. how ambitious are you for the ukrainian _ a part of me. how ambitious are you for the ukrainian ballet? i you for the ukrainian ballet? you have built the script from scratch. now, of course, it is temporary and many of them will go back to ukraine, many of them have a very difficult circumstances, but would you like to see in the future of this planting a seed of sort of artistic renaissance inside ukraine? , ., , of artistic renaissance inside ukraine? , ., of artistic renaissance inside ukraine? , . ., ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition _ ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition and _ ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition and hope. - ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition and hope. i - ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition and hope. i do i ukraine? yes, that is a great| ambition and hope. i do want these dancers to go back to ambition and hope. i do want thesi home ers to go back to ambition and hope. i do want thesi home ers to go be and > their home companies and continue their lives there. this situation is very dramatic because let's say ballet this situation is very dramatic because li growing allet this situation is very dramatic because li growing up at this situation is very dramatic because li growing up they left students, growing up they left the they left their the country, they left their schools, they installed in different schools and i have to say that the ballet community around the world has been very

helpful, giving them spaces to live and study. now you get attached to a class, to your teachers, you learn the repertoire of the companies, and it might be impossible for them to return. so when the war ends, and ukraine starts to rebuild its life back to normal, we might need to start everything from scratch. final thou:ht, everything from scratch. final thought. do — everything from scratch. final thought, do you _ everything from scratch. final thought, do you think- everything from scratch. final thought, do you think this i everything from scratch. final thought, do you think this war and the experience you have had in the last crazy six, seven months, it has clearly affected you deeply as a person. do you think it has forever affected your artform as well? do you think you might actually look at ballet differently from now on? . . ., on? yeah. it did change me, absolutely- _ on? yeah. it did change me, absolutely. at _ on? yeah. it did change me, absolutely. at the _ on? yeah. it did change me, | absolutely. at the beginning, on? yeah. it did change me, l absolutely. at the beginning, i was not able to imagine

choreographing, creating ballet, but i found it did, and i used ukrainian music and ukrainian design. it is going to premiere next week in seattle, and it is a different new. i have never went potty training dancers since my youth in kyiv. —— it is a different me, i have never worked with your training dancers since my youth. that is where we _ dancers since my youth. that is where we have _ dancers since my youth. that is where we have to _ dancers since my youth. that is where we have to end. - dancers since my youth. that is where we have to end. alexei l where we have to end. alexei ratmansky, it has been a pleasure talking to you on hardtalk. pleasure talking to you on hardtalk—

hello. we will get our first proper taste of autumn this week, with temperatures below average for the time of year, north—westerly winds to begin with, a changeable week of the week, and then the potential for something quite nasty later on. and that opens the door to a north—westerly airflow forget it is september, there is still warmth in the atmosphere and it won't feel desperately chilly, and temperatures higher than they were on sunday. but we do start with rain across southern counties of england, the channel islands, just one or two showers later here. one or two spots may avoid showers altogether, but quite breezy

compared to of late. and of course it all adds up for a cool afternoon, through monday night into tuesday, we continue with the strong wind, showers frequent across northern parts of scotland and a bit cooler particularly in the south and east, but enough of a breeze to stop frost forming to take this into tuesday. the chart for tuesday, low—pressure to the north—east of us, trying to move down, sliding towards the south—west, a bit closer with a chance of some cloudy conditions, outbreaks of rain close to corman in devon but otherwise

given the winds are light. a cold start to thursday, but the quietest day of the week with more places dry, but the potential for some very wet and windy weather on friday.

i evacuated my house because i'm scared, the flood to get really high and i don't want a

repeat of what happened before. a trial