this is bbc news. the headlines will follow at the top of the hour after this feature programme. hello and welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's take a look at what's on the show. did you tell everyone in the office about quiet quitting? i did, yeah, mm—hm. i did do that, yeah. quiet quitting — it's a social media sensation that's changing the way millions of people work. they're only doing what they are paid for, or acting their wage. as the world economy recovers from the pandemic, could this workers�* slowdown impact any hope for recovery? i'm going to be discussing that with these two. sarai soto, whose quiet quitting videos have had hundreds of millions of views on tiktok. and professor anthony klotz, of university college london, who coined the phrase the great resignation. also on the show, as shipping

and supply chains continue to struggle, how quickly can digitising the paperwork bring costs down? i'm going to be asking the big boss of the billion—dollar start—up tradeshift. wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, hello and a warm welcome to the show. the world of work has been through a two—year revolution, millions of us were locked out of the workplace during the first two waves of the covid pandemic. companies and workers had to retool to remote working, and many did incredibly quickly. for others — medical staff, factory workers, those whose jobs were deemed essential — they faced work and pressure like never before.

and many seem to have also faced burn—out. as workers and employers find theirfeet again, a social media craze could change the way we all work. on video—sharing platforms like tiktok, videos like these are being shared by millions of viewers and changing attitudes in the workplace. have a seat, veronica. did you tell everyone in the office about quiet quitting? i did, yeah, mm—hm. i did do that, yeah. do you know what that means? yeah, it means you come to work, do you job, then go home, you should try it sometime. this is creating an unhealthy mindset for our employees... telling your employees to go above and beyond for a salary they can barely live on — don't you think that's unhealthy? veronica, please stop. you need to stop. deborah, come here. what's up?

did you get any bonuses or promotion for going above and beyond ? i have not, i'm still waiting patiently. l the poor thing — she's been going above and beyond for years, and has nothing to show for it, so why would i? if you keep talking like this in front of employees we will have to take corrective action. corrective action for what, susan? you're so silly! i come and do myjob, a good job, then i go home. and i pay my bills. anyways, if you want to pay me more, maybe i will go above and beyond for that. all right, thank you, susan, byee. quiet quitting, it might seem like a small social media craze but the issue of employee engagement and their productivity is economically vital. low engagement costs the world economyjust short of $8 trillion, according to gallup�*s respected report state of the global workplace 2022. that's just over 10% of the total global economy. of the ten regions in the world

surveyed, the united states and canada had the most engaged workforce, one third of workers said they were engaged. europe had the lowest, just 14% of workforce feeling engaged. in many parts of the world, especially united states, demand for work is high, which means workers have more power about the way they work because finding a newerjob is easier when there are so many vacancies. you have already seen my first guest playing the role of quiet quitter veronica on tiktok. her videos have had more than 300 million views. they're so successful, she has quit herjob — notjust quiet quitting, actually quit. sarai soto, a real pleasure having you on my show. thanks for your time. let's start with this. we have seen your video. but i want to hear it from you now in this interview. explain to us, just what is quiet quitting? well, i don't love the term because i don't think it's quitting at all.

i think it's actually going to yourjob, doing what you're required to do, and then going home. you're just not going above and beyond. we know you have had your own journey with this. tell us how you came to quiet quit, even though you don't like the name, tell us how you came to do that, because you then actually did quit yourjob. i did, yes, at the end of 2020, i worked for a for—profit university as an admissions counsellor, i was miserable, i hated thatjob, it was super toxic, they were micromanaging to the point where the stress and anxiety was unbearable. if theyjust listened to us, because there were many times that i told them what i was going through, i told them how i felt during the one—on—ones, and how the fact that they would just tell me everything that i was doing wrong, it made me so stressed and so anxious, they just didn't listen. they would just tell

me to get over it. do you think the pandemic played any part in this? we know many people had to continue working through the pandemic and lockdown, so they just burned out? most definitely. i experienced it myself. there's constant accessibility when you are working from home. i feel that there wasn't this boundary between work time and personal time. i think companies got comfortable with this, and they expect it regularly now. and people are just burnt out now. they are like, i need to take care of myself and i'm going to prioritise work—life balance. so you started these videos, and they have taken off. what kind of feedback have you had? it has been overwhelming. so much support. i think that people feel seen, they feel heard, they feel someone's standing up for them, i receive messages every day, people telling me, i am so grateful, you are depicting my life.

even though it's exaggerated, you're depicting my life in these videos, and thank you for raising awareness. when i started this journey, i was so lost. i had no idea what i was going to do. i was turning 30 and i felt like i didn't know where i was going to go with my career. i wanted to do something meaningful, i wanted to do something that i loved. and i started creating this content, and it is overwhelming the amount of love and encouragement i've received. is this a younger people thing, a millennial thing? i think that gen z and millennials are definitely resonating with this term, speaking out about it a lot, but they're not the only ones. people talk about this generational divide, and while i do agree with that to a certain extent, i have received messages from every age bracket, supporting this narrative, applauding the younger

generation for speaking up for themselves in the workplace. do you think that this rising cost of living, this crisis we are all in, do you think more people will quiet quit if they're not paid more? people are recognising, i have been working so hard, going above and beyond, and i am still in the same position — a lot of times that happens. people are recognising that it's just not worth it any more. people are having two or three jobs, with inflation and everything, and they have to keep up. they have a lot going on outside of work. so i think people are going to continue quiet quitting because they are just burnt out. i love this phrase — it is also being described as acting your wage. is that accurate? i think so. when i think of acting your wage, i think if a company is paying you minimum wage, you are going to put

in minimum effort, you are not going to go above and beyond for an unliveable wage, it doesn't make sense. the labour that you're putting in is reflecting what you are paid — that's what i think. but do you worry that you might be influencing people to ruin their career? if you stay at work as a quiet quitter, you're possibly limiting your progress. i think it depends. if there is a pathway to promotion, it makes sense to take initiative, to work harder. a lot of times that's not the case. also, people are recognising that they need to prioritise other things in life. hustle culture is kind of a thing of the past. it doesn't necessarily mean you are not invested in the work that you do, that you are doing a bad job, itjust means that you have other priorities. do you think that employers are taking notice and making fewer demands, or offering better perks at least, or pay? i hope so.

i have had a lot of feedback from managers, telling me, i am learning a lot from videos you are posting, and i'm actually changing the way that i approach things at work. so i think that they are. it's everywhere, it's in the news, all over tiktok. so i think that employers feel like they really need to do something. sarai, let me end on this. quite simply, what's next for you ? oh, man, i have so many dreams and goals. my dream is to have my own show on netflix, my own version of the office, that would be amazing. i definitely want to have my own merch line, but i'm just going to continue hosting on tiktok, continuing to create new content, and i hope to post on youtube eventually too. sarai soto, absolute pleasure having you on the show, best of luck with everything,

i'll check in with you soon. thank you so much for having me. quiet quitting, it's not new, many millions of people quit theirjob during the pandemic, some due to burn—out for demands placed on them during the crisis, others released from the office, they wanted to make the change permanent. my next guest saw that over the last few years, the number quitting jobs in the us doubled, and he famously described the phenomenon — the great resignation. professor anthony klotz, a real pleasure having you. i'm wondering, what's been driving this quiet quitting, the great resignation? is it disenchantment with the workplace? there are a few different factors. one is definitely pay, but one is disenchantment with the world of work as it is and as it has been. so, during the pandemic a lot of individuals reflected on their lives, and work is a big part of our lives, and decided that work was taking more

than it was giving back in some cases. that led to some disenchantment, and in many cases that leads to resignations. but there are many employees for whom resignation is not a good idea, quitting yourjob is risky, especially as the economy falters. what do you do if you are in a job that isn't a good fit for you, or you have a boss treating you disrespectfully, or you are underpaid, but for some reason you're not able to quit. maybe you are geographically bound, maybe at this company for 25 years, it is not easyjust to up and go. quiet quitting, or quitting engagement in anything above yourjob description, is a pretty sensible strategy if you are trying to even the exchange between you and the organisation. what kind of areas are the worst hit by this lack of engagement? there are some industries that have been hit harder than others. a couple of those industries are ones that had high

turnover to begin with. you had individuals who worked through the pandemic, perhaps on the front lines of the pandemic, individuals who were delivering our food to us, who were staffing our medical centres, and so forth. also individuals who worked through the pandemic who were working parents, who were working remote for the first time, which was challenging, and educating their children full—time, while working full—time. finally, you had managers and leaders during maybe the biggest crisis in terms of their entire career, also leading during the pandemic. there is a large spread of employees who are a little bit burnt out right now, stressed out right now, because of the last couple of years. that does notjust come from working through the pandemic, it comes from working on the very front lines of the pandemic, putting your health at risk, it comes from educating your children at home while you are also working.

it has been a stressful couple of years and workers who have worked through it are still feeling those effects. you are a professor of management. what challenges do managers have? management is difficult even before the pandemic. even on a good day. now we are dealing with other changes that are making management even more difficult. one aspect is remote work or hybrid work. it's a big change for managers to lead individuals who are not physically present in the workplace. managers are having to change the management style to do that. the other thing that's changed is the boundaries between people's personal life and their work life are pretty much gone, which means, it used to be that managing employees had to do with managing them for eight or ten hours they were at work. now you have to think more about what's on in the lives of employees outside of work, how perhaps family issues,

events happening in the world more generally like a war, affects how they feel, which then effects how they perform at work. management definitely is not getting any easier. what you are talking about is a completely different kind of management. that means that organisations are going to have to have that management skill on board. what it requires a lot of is actually listening by your direct manager. middle managers are going to be expected to get to know employees better. to make it clear, lots of middle managers do a good job of doing this, but more than ever the expectation is managers are keeping in touch with their employees so they know how they are feeling any given moment. so if the next pandemic happens, or there is a new crisis in the world, managers know these two employees will be affected, these two will not and i can

adjust accordingly. the challenge for managers is not necessarily listening skills, although there is some, the challenge is middle managers probably have less free time than any other worker in the organisation. what this requires also is a little bit of restructuring, so that executives realise, we need to free up the managers in this organisation from the tasks they are doing that don't add value, free them up to engage with employees and spend more time managing people, as opposed to managing tasks and some of the other more mundane aspects of work. is the contract between worker and employer changing because of the specific moment? whether the pandemic, a tight labour market, the rising cost of living, is this shift something that's here to stay? in the decade leading up to the pandemic resignation numbers were slowly

creeping up. resignation of employees that were quitting any given month had crept up over the last decade. over the last year, it has really spiked. the pandemic really was a reflection of what we had seen growing over the past decade, now there is this big shift in terms of what workers expect from theirjobs. what workers see right now is this opportunity, may be the silver lining to the pandemic, to make the world of work better. if you think back to before the pandemic there was a lot of talk about the world of work being toxic in terms of harassment at work, hustle culture, overwork, a lot of people reflected during the pandemic and said, maybe we need a bit of a reset, we are able to live rich lives outside of work but still give our best at work, instead of being all about myjob, i would like to have a rich life outside of that. what you are looking at right now is workers who have

increased their expectations of their time spent at work, that could come in the form of it needs to pay more, it needs to provide better challenges, more meaning, or it needs to allow them more freedom outside of work, more flexibility. thank you for your time. thank you. global trade is undergoing a period of intense change. in the past few years we have seen brexit, the pandemic, and war in ukraine, events which have driven up inflation and the cost of living, and seen energy costs skyrocket. the world is more dangerous and unpredictable than it once was. companies are being forced to redesign their supply chain to accommodate that. tradeshift is a company that rocketed to a billion—dollar valuation through the supply chain crisis. it is a cloud—based app that digitalises much of the paperwork in the supply chain.

i caught up with the big boss of tradeshift. a real pleasure having you on the show. let's start with this. my show this week is focusing on this new work practice craze called quiet quitting. is this particular work practice, is it being felt within supply chains? unquiet and quiet quitting has happened a lot. we had the great resignation last year and there is labour, transport costs, finally access to raw materials. right now, the two biggest ones are labour and material costs. these supply chain pressures, where are they being felt now geographically and industry—wise? it's global. logistic had a full year last year, their prices are now down 45% on last year.

container costs. that is easing up a bit. we are seeing pressures on materials. semiconductors talked about every week. i am nervous we will also get a whiplash effect, companies desperately ordering earlier, now getting too much inventory. if companies have too much inventory, could that be good news for the consumer in terms of, they have to put big sales on to flog the stuff? it will definitely benefit consumers. where else do you go, you have to offer that inventory, you might see this whiplash effect, we move from scarcity to abundance. have we seen supply chains become more local since the war in ukraine? absolutely. it started before the war in ukraine. us—china trade war started this off. you can look at the supply chain has been disrupted

in ukraine, in areas where it is already weak in comparison to asia. in comparison to asia or the us. right now, massive push to build more semiconductor capacity. talking about supply chains, 31st of january 2020, a big day in the uk, the day britain left the european union — what supply chain issues have we seen because of that and since that? we are still seeing them. to begin with, the customs system a mess. everybody is trying to find better ways of doing the customs. the reality is, you have a narrow pipeline. you can either go to

the tunnel or on a boat. if you lay in custom on top of that, you have massive logistical issues. that is just one thing. labour costs and inflation, just because here we have decided not only we want to take up more of the labour force... 0n brexit, companies in the uk say their paperwork is killing their business. just how much paperwork is in this process? it's a dramatic amount. look at the customs process. added six, seven, eight, nine additional pieces of paper for one shipment. then you have inspections of the trucks. you saw at the border, miles of trucks are

trying to get through where there was no friction before. we have almost seen an ecosystem of uk companies to deal with the paperwork. but that's not the right solution. the right solution is to figure out a digital regime, and make sure that the friction does not hit the companies. obviously there is too much paperwork, i am wondering, we are in 2022, why hasn't more investment gone into fixing this problem? to begin with, we haven't had to deal with customs processes for the last 35 years. so to suddenly reintroduce something, and nobody knew really a process for that. we're talking about reviving processes that are about 30 years old. rather than trying to adapt these processes to the world of today,

the tech of the day, we started with 30 years ago, tried to redo it that way. is there enough digitalisation in the supply chain? that is an easy answer. there is not. most people would be shocked. when you look at some of these supply chains, resources resources companies using fax. i had to explain some of my employees what a fax was. the way that it is in the pandemic, if you are running everything on paper, you are notjust going to reorganise your supply chain in a month, it will take years. companies that are flexible can react to how the world is changing, but if everything is manual it is extremely hard. we even have companies who did not know who the global supplier base was. that is a problem if you have an event like covid. artificial intelligence,

how is that changing businesses and industries? a case from our company. i remember having a discussion when it was said you could completely automate everything. artificial intelligence could do that. now, they are sceptical. was that the prototype of the self driving car i saw? you are telling me you have the tech to set this up but you can't imagine a world that we can improve this invoice automatically. when it comes to business processes we are already past the point of no return. the next two decades we move from people driven business processes to digital and artificial processes, which will free up labour.

thank you for your time. that is all for this week. i hope you enjoyed it. you can keep up with the latest on the bbc website. you can also follow me on twitter. thank you for watching. hello. the start of the new week almost felt like the start of a new season, especially when the dark clouds rolled in, the rain started to fall and the wind picked up and another showery day to come, much like we had on monday, on tuesday. now the showers will be focused in certain areas. the weather chart is a fairly similar one. still got north westerly winds, but they're actually going a little bit more westerly and allow this little sliding weather system just down towards the south west. but i'll show you where the showers will be mainly focused, particularly in the morning in northern parts of scotland, frequent here with hail and thunder. we'll see another zone

of frequent showers to the north and east and northern ireland, isle of man, into north west england, northeast wales and also the north west midlands. and then there's that weather system i mentioned down towards the south west, which will slide its way in bringing devon, parts of cornwall and the channel islands more in the way of grey skies and further persistent rain as we go through into the afternoon. now, either side of those certain rain areas, fewer showers around, more in the way of dry weather. although, we'll see a few showers crop up later, particularly south east scotland and northeast england. but in the sunshine, like on monday, it will feel pleasant enough. out of it in the breeze, ii to 16 degrees, distinctly cool. now the wind goes a little bit more northerly again as we go through the night and into wednesday, clearing away the rain from the southwest. there should showers, the north and east of the country, more likely, in fact, as we go through. and so temperatures here maybe not as low as they were to take us into tuesday, a little bit lower compared to tuesday morning and wednesday morning out towards the west. so we've more of a northerly airflow and an air of low pressure pushing in off the north sea on wednesday. that's going to change the focus for where the wetter

weather is more likely to be on wednesday. this time, more like down through east of scotland, particularly later into northeast england, parts of yorkshire, lincolnshire, maybe east anglia. it does mean further west, fewer showers compared with tuesday, lot more in the way of drier and sunnier weather. and so maybe feeling a little less chilly in these areas, especially as the wind starts to ease. as you go through into thursday, the outbreaks we see in eastern england on wednesday will have pushed their way southwards overnight, gradually clearing away, a few showers dotted around, but overall, the quietest day of the week, winds should be lighter, more sunshine, fewer showers and temperatures on the up. now, as you go through then into friday, well, we start on a cool note, a ridge of high pressure, but a more prolonged spell of rain set to sweep across the country with strong to gale force winds. a big change, but still an autumn feel to end the week.

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