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after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. a few days ago, oleksandr shapoval, one of ukraine's leading ballet dancers, was killed while serving in the ukrainian army fighting the russian invasion. art and culture are not immune from the impact of war. my guest today knows that well. alexei ratmansky is a world—renowned choreographer with roots in both russia and ukraine, once director of the bolshoi ballet in moscow, and now putting on a special production of giselle with the united ukrainian ballet, to show the world ukrainian culture lives on. has ballet become a battleground?

thank you very much, it's an honour to be here. delighted to have you here. you are here in london because you are mounting this extraordinary set of performances of giselle, performed by ukrainian dancers. how can you go about putting on a performance with ukrainians when their country is at war? there was an extraordinary project, it started in march. i received a call from my friend in holland, she is a former principal ballerina, and she said, i have some ukrainian dancers who are refugees, and i would like them to do

one of your ballets, if you don't mind. i was absolutely supportive of the idea, wholeheartedly. at the beginning it was just some women, and then as time passed, we received men who needed special permission to leave the country. because men are required to stay in ukraine under 60 years of age, they are expected to stay and fight. that is correct. so these male dancers have special dispensation. they were sent on a mission to show the world that ukrainian culture is alive, and to represent ukraine and their culture, in fact. you are one of the world's top choreographers. is it possible for you to meet your own exacting

standards with this company in these circumstances? it is a very different project from anything i have done before, and we all do it for other reasons. and it is not a company, it is a group of dancers who happen to be together. we do it for ukraine, and actually this is such a strong motivation that the quality follows. how difficult is it to concentrate, i'm thinking particularly for your dancers, when every day there is news from the battlefront. many of them will have families serving in the military and, just a few days ago, we all heard that one of ukraine's leading ballet dancers, who had chosen to go and fight at the front in the east of the country, was killed. this cannot be easy to focus. no, very challenging.

as you said, the dancers have families. i have family in kyiv. they are all checking the news constantly. you wake up in the morning, you want to know which cities were bombed, how many people were killed. which buildings were destroyed. and check that all of your loved ones are ok and safe. you do it every day for more than half a year now. it becomes a routine. it sounds horrible. but that is the reality. what about the impact of the death of oleksandr shapoval who i know you worked with and many of your company will have worked with. he was also a teacher

in a school, a ballet school, so we have some of his students in the company. he is a brave man, a hero. that was a moment that broke the hearts of many. there was another man who fought and died, a dancer, back in february i think, and there are other dancers, numerous musicians, actors, directors, who feel the need to defend the country and their land with arms. i don't know what else to say. i can feel how... we are all so grateful to these brave people. your own background is fascinating in the context of what is happening, because you have family roots both in ukraine and russia. in professional terms, you are sort of more russian than ukrainian

in that your dancing was learned in moscow, you have a very big connection with the bolshoi ballet where you are artistic director, and you were in moscow working with the bolshoi ballet on february 24th when putin launched the invasion. what were your immediate feelings and reactions then? it felt like the world was crushing. you could not comprehend how that was possible. it sounded surreal. however, for a couple of months before the beginning of the war, the president of the united states was telling the world that it was going to happen. there were warnings, but you stayed until february 24th. nobody really believed it was going to happen. my family in kyiv, we talked every day, my friends and relatives in moscow. when i flew from new york,

where i have been based for already more than 12 years, to moscow, i warned the bolshoi ballet management that if something like that happened, i would need to leave immediately, and they said, "what are you talking about? it is not going to happen." so just a week before, i think, when vladimir putin announced the support of the independence of the luhansk and donetsk so—called republics, it was clear that it was really serious, it was going to happen tomorrow. how difficult a decision was it for you to quit? because as soon as the tanks crossed that border, you quit, you walked away. idid. i got a call from my wife 5am in the morning, she said that kyiv is bombarded, and i said, i'm leaving. i took my artistic team with me. the bolshoi arranged the tickets.

so they didn't try and stop you? no, probably because i warned them beforehand. were you fearful at that point? it was a horrific day, just horrific, but nothing felt important except the safety of my family in kyiv, and the existence of the country, of my country. so my history was with the bolshoi and with russian ballet, and i knew right away that it is terminated now, it is not going to continue. i sort of have to cut my past... that is a very interesting way of putting it, because you were deeply embedded in the russian artistic establishment. i mean, you don't get to be artistic director of the bolshoi without having a massive network of connections, of being deeply

respected in moscow for your artistic achievement. now, how do you feel about all of that professional commitment, life, and energy you gave to russia? on one hand, i grew up as, you know, russian ballet is a very big part of the world. arguably russia takes ballet more seriously than any other country in the world. absolutely, yeah. classical ballet is russian. well, half of it is french, but... in that sense, in a sort of professional sense, did you feel yourself to be russian? these are questions that i still don't have answers to, because i think i need time to glue my identity together.

most of my ballets are choreographed to russian music, or russian themes. and your whole approach to ballet, as i understand it, is to respect tradition and the past, and to pore over the notes made by some of the greatest choreographers of the past, and to be very serious about the history, particularly of russian ballet, and now all of that must feel very strange. it does. it does feel strange. but i tell myself that the russian culture of the past, it doesn't have anything to do with putin's crimes, and the crimes of the russian army in ukraine. and i am going to defend russian culture now... you are? you feel it is important to defend russian culture? not for myself. not, i am not an advocate

for russian culture. it will survive. ukrainian culture and needs help at the moment because it is in danger. ukrainian cultural institutions are destroyed. artists can't practice their art. they are dying on the battlefield. that is much more important. and i don't think in the near future we are going to see big tourism in the region. that is ok, they will survive. i think the world has to make sure that ukraine wins, and this dangerous russian fascism is stopped. in that very statement, you have expressed your convictions, in a sense your activism, as a campaigner

against this war and against vladimir putin. you have expectations of russian artists. what do you expect from them, in terms of a public statement, a declaration, a position on what is happening? in february, when it all started, i first remember, i remember my first thoughts were that is the end of putin because i thought millions of russians would be out on the streets to protest. there were hundreds of russians, not millions... and to be fair to them, they were extraordinarily brave people, because they got arrested. absolutely, yes. the first week, i think the state was just watching them, and then the arrests started, the new laws that do not allow them to call the war, the war. so you can be arrested for that. you cannot expect people to protest when they face imprisonment or other dangers

for themselves and their families. but you have expected that, haven't you? because you have made statements saying you are deeply disappointed with those artists who have remained silent, and that silence is not an option in the current situation. let me explain my position. i think if the artists in russia, those who represent the great russian culture, want to continue going back and forth, and publicly support putin, that is not acceptable. it cannot be accepted by the west, i think, because of obvious reasons. it is not always as simple as that, though, is it? let's take a specific case, i would be interested to know what you think of it. one of the great sopranos

in the world, admired and loved in russia, and in concert halls she plays in and around the world. she, after the invasion, she said she condemned the war, she did not want war. but what she didn't do was condemn or criticise vladimir putin himself. it seems she managed to upset everybody, those in russia were angry that she condemned the war, those outside russia wanted much more in terms of a criticism of vladimir putin. she now seems to have been "cancelled" both inside russia and in many concert halls outside russia. is that fair? i wish she had made a clearer statement. i think her desire to avoid consequences on both sides made her statement really unclear, and confusing,

and that is why she is facing the situation. is it fair, and i ask this with all respect for everything you were doing, but is it fairfor you to draw thosejudgements sitting here with me in london, living in new york, based in the west, is it fair for you to tell russian artists who live, and have family inside russia, who see the consequences of speaking out against putin, is it fair for you to criticise them orjudge them? probably not, because they are not safe, but when you compare their situation to the situation of ukrainian artists, i think thejudgment is more clear. we discussed the life and death of oleksandr shapoval. the existence of the whole nation is in danger. theatres, libraries, schools, colleges,

universities, cultural sites. many institutions of historical significance are destroyed. i talked about the years you spent in russia, the network you have built up inside the artistic community. because of your stand and your expectations of others, have you lost in relationships, lost friendships, because of this? yeah, i lost a lot of friendships. and that is very hard, it is very painful. can you tell me about some of the conversations you have had with people you used to regard as friends? when it all started, because it was so hectic and so inexplicable, i thought, ballet dancers and all of us concentrate on ballet, we're so focused from a very early age, we live in a very narrow

world, you need to practice, you need to prepare for performances, and that takes your whole attention, so very few of the ballet people that i know are political at all, most of them are just, you know, have a passing by... so i was writing letters to my close friends, dancers who i admired, worked very closely, saying, guys, listen, maybe you don't have any information, you don't know what is going on, i tried not to be emotional, but i just gave them facts reported by international news outlets. how many killed, how many are refugees... and what was their response to facts? silence. or, let's not mix politics and art.

we are doing art, we want to concentrate on that. that is an interesting point. i just want to ask you whether you now feel there is a basis for, if i can use a word like this, derussifying the artistic output that we see in the west? for example, the bolshoi ballet was cancelled from performances in london. in cardiff, in wales, they cancelled a tchaikovsky concert. you are performing giselle, one of those classic ballets that is not russian, is that deliberate? do you think that there has to be a de—russification of culture ? swan lake, the most famous of all ballets, was always i think emotionally, it is very understandable, and i think it's clear, for example, swan lake, the most famous

of all ballets, was always used as a political tool by the soviet powers. so today, performing swan lake nowadays hurts many millions of people. so you do not want to see it? on the other hand it is much more complex than that. but what does tchaikovsky have with in common with what is going on now? he is the most sensitive and human of all composers. the bolshoi ballet like the marinksy ballet or any other big cultural institutions in russia, they are state funded. they pay the state as well from their benefits,

and this money is used for killing ukrainians. a lot of my ballets are — were — performed by russian companies. when the war started, i asked them to suspend my ballets. they have licence, i cannot do anything about it. and they sort of agreed, then they started performing again. the knowledge that the taxes the dancers pay and the spectators pay and the theatre pays from benefits are used to kill my fellow countrymen is horrific. the bolshoi ballet is probably the most renowned ballet company in the world. you have a long association with it. i just wonder whether you feel it is impossible for you to imagine ever working with them again, or indeed, frankly, ever returning to russia again? until the war ends,

and there is a clear denouncement of what happened, and putin is sued for his crimes, not only him but the army of propagandists, the military, and his government, i don't think it would be possible for me to go back. but i hope that russia will change and i can return, because it is a part of me. how ambitious are you for the ukrainian ballet? you have built this group from scratch. now, of course, it is temporary and many of them will go back to ukraine, many of them have very difficult circumstances, but would you like to see in the future this planting a seed of a sort of artistic

renaissance inside ukraine? yes, that is a great ambition and hope. i do want these dancers to go back to their home companies and continue their lives there. this situation is very dramatic because let's say ballet students, growing up, they left the country, they left their schools, they installed in different schools and i have to say that the ballet community around the world has been very helpful, giving them spaces to live and study. now you get attached to your class, to your teachers, you learn the repertoire of the companies, and it might be impossible for them to return. so when the war ends, and ukraine starts to rebuild its life back to normal,

we might need to start everything from scratch. final thought, do you think this war and the experience you have had in the last crazy six, seven months, it has clearly affected you deeply as a person. do you think it has forever affected your art form as well? do you think you might actually look at ballet differently from now on? yeah. it did change me, absolutely. at the beginning, i was not able to imagine choreographing, creating a ballet, but i finally did, and i used ukrainian music and ukrainian design. it is going to premiere next week in seattle, the ballet�*s done, and it is a different me. in a way, a new start for you. i have never worked with ukrainian dancers since my youth in kyiv. so it is a new beginning.

that is where we have to end. alexei ratmansky, it has been a pleasure talking to you on hardtalk. thank you. hello. yesterday was a day of sunshine and showers. today, it's a pretty similar theme, but if anything, i think more in the way of sunshine and fewer in the way of showers. still quite a cluster around first thing on thursday on the tail end of this weather front that's sliding off towards the continent, but actually this little finger, a brief finger of high

pressure is going to try and settle things down for this thursday. so, there's some showers to start the day across the south—west of england and pembrokeshire, gone through the morning, but winds in off the north sea will feed some scattered showers into northern england, the north midlands, perhaps the north of east anglia through the afternoon, a few across scotland, too. but predominantly, i think, dry and sunny and temperatures upa degree or so on wednesday, 15-17. through the evening and overnight, it's going to turn quite chilly across eastern areas of england, winds fall light light and the skies stay clear. different picture towards north—west, winds kick up, cloud comes in and rain by the end of the night for northern ireland and western scotland. so, 10—11 the overnight lows here. perhaps the odd three across the south—east of england. friday, we are going to be dominated by low pressure. we start the day fine with some sunshine across central and eastern england, but wet towards the north—west. and this whole system will swing its way through during the course of the day, brighter but with some showers through the afternoon for scotland and northern ireland. temperatures dipping behind the weather system yet again,

and then it's a wet end to the day across eastern england. that whole frontal system, though, does push away quite quickly, and in time for the weekend, we're left with low pressure, yes, but i think more in the way of sunny intervals again. some showers, justthe chance of some more persistent rain running into the south of the uk later on on saturday. so, in comparison to friday, well, yes, it's still quite breezy on saturday, but we shouldn't see so much cloud around and outbreaks of rain will come and go rather than being persistent, aside from potentially this area pushing into southern england later on in the day on saturday. and that could linger on overnight saturday into the early part of sunday, too, but sunday daytime, of the two days, perhaps the one offering up less in the way of showers. it's still quite a notable westerly breeze. our greatest chance of getting caught in the rain will be along many of our west coasts, but in the east, with some shelter, it should feel pretty pleasant again. temperatures getting up into the mid—teens.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. millions of residents are told to evacuate florida, as hurricane ian brings dangerous winds and heavy rain. there will be catastrophic flooding and life—threatening storm surge on the gulf coast region. we hear from the tampa fire rescue department as they try to help those affected. also on the programme: the us vice president heads to south korea, as the north tests yet more missiles — kamala harris will visit the demilitarised zone at the border. iran's president ebrahim raisi accuses protesters of misusing the death of a young woman in police custody

to cause riots.