this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues — straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, with me, zeinab badawi. as the war in ukraine rages on, we speak to a russian rock legend whose life and career have mirrored his motherland's journey from the soviet era, through the break—up of the soviet union, to putin's authoritarian state. my guest is boris grebenshchikov. he last played in russia the day before putin invaded

ukraine in february, and is now living in london. bg, as he is known to his fans, risks prosecution for his anti—war comments if he returns to russia. the role cultural icons have to play in the politics of protests is a well—trodden one, but do their voices have any impact inside russia? boris grebenshchikov, welcome to hardtalk. thanks for having me. all right, so you last performed in russia just six hours before putin invaded ukraine. you say you had a sense of foreboding that something monumental was going to happen. what did you think

was going to occur? you know, we played a concert on the night before the invasion, and i had this weird feeling that i'm playing in hamburg in 1939. so i knew that something really bad is coming. i couldn't predict the war, but, you know, it felt bad. and now, when you see ukrainian cities, where you performed, either being destroyed, some of the very theatres where you actually played, and also places like kherson, one of the four provinces that russia has annexed in these self—styled referendums, how does that make you feel? well, i feel shame for russia. because it's just pornographic. and how does it make you feel as a russian? you know, a great writer,

thomas mann, who emigrated during the fascist era, he was asked, "how do you feel being separate from german culture?" he said, "i am german culture. german culture is where i am." so i feel the same about russia. my russia is with me. and all the people who emigrated at the moment, they bring their own russia with them. a few years ago, when you were asked in an interview about your feelings of russian—ness, you said, "i speak the russian language, i write in russian and work mostly for those who choose russian as their main language of communication and self—expression." many ukrainians have russian as their mother tongue. so how are you going to interpret this now, with these ukrainians who have russian as their first language and your sense of feeling that russian—ness is somehow tied up with the language? that's not going to be sustainable any more, is it?

well, i think russian language will not change because of the people who are right now sitting in the kremlin. russian culture is one thing, the politics is another thing — they don't mix. furthermore, i think people in kremlin, they don't really know russian language or russian culture. but what about the ukrainians who speak russian? indeed, even president zelensky�*s mother tongue is russian. yeah, and a lot of ukrainians whom are meeting outside of russia at the moment, they also continue to speak russian. so it's good, they're going to speak two languages. do you think it could be a unifying factor, in time, between ukrainians and russians? because, of course, we are seeing a real deterioration in relations between the... oh, the deterioration is terrible, but i think over years, over dozens of years or hundreds of years, russian language will be accepted again because it's got too much, too many treasures.

you can't throw away that. you have made comments such as, "the war in ukraine is a monstrous violation of everything in the world." first of all, what exactly did you mean by that? well, you see, if in 21st century, we in the middle of europe, we have one country attacking the other, it's monstrous. it goes against all human laws, and laws of human behaviour. it's something intolerable. ok, so you've made comments like that. what would happen to you if you went back to russia now? because you've elected to stay in london for the time being. well, i moved to london two—and—a—half years ago. it'sjust easierfor me to work here, and i have more pleasure. and i cannot really imagine me going back

to russia at the moment, because i will be at mercy of some people, at whose mercy i wouldn't like to be. you're worried about what might happen to you? yeah. so it's a form of protest, then, your staying away, or... no, survival. ..or is it survival? survival. have you been receiving death threats? i'm always receiving death threats. it's sort of a spice of life. i mean, do you think that, really, your life would be in jeopardy if you went back to russia? yeah. that you might be killed, even? well, i'm not quite intent on contemplating that. i'm sure not. 0k, look, i mean, you formed your rock band aquarium in 1972, a sort of western—inspired rock music at a time when that art form was illegal in the soviet union, so it was quite a brave act to do. and you're hugely popular in russia, across the generations,

and also with the russian diaspora, wherever they are. do you believe that you have music — you have influence in russia beyond your music? i would never dare to have an influence. but what i can do, i can share the beauty and the wisdom that is contained in music. and because i was given it freely, i was listening to the music, it shaped me. so i'm just transferring it further. but if you're so popular in russia, as i said, which you are, you're a rock legend, you know, don't you think you should use that platform in some way? it's an illusion and it never works. if we think back about... we think back to �*60s, do you think that anything with stones or the beatles or anybody would say that would stop the government?

no way. but, you know, you have always had a very rebellious streak from an early age, you studied mathematics... i'm just normal. yeah, but i want to ask you, i mean, you studied mathematics at the university of leningrad, as it was then, st petersburg. you came from a relatively well—off background. your father was an engineer, your mother a fashion designer. as i said, you set up your band in 1972 when you were still at university, and you said, "i spent six very nice years doing rock and roll and all the antisocial things that i could possibly dream of and getting by." you had illicit gigs that you went on, so where's that rebellious streak now? has it gone? see, i never saw it as rebellious, i was just behaving normal — i still do. but, i mean, you know, you obviously were pushing the boundaries then, so my question is why... cos it needed to be pushed, they needed to. but don't they need to be pushed now? because you're being confronted with the same authoritarianism that you were then.

well, that's what i'm doing. i'm still doing the same thing, pushing the boundaries. so, in what way do you think you live up to the description of you as "the russian bob dylan"? because... oh, no, no, no. do you hate that? bob, bob, please, excuse me! yeah, but... please, forgive me! but why, why do you hate that? because he, you know, he's like you, big name, and he was known for his protest songs, you know, anti—vietnam war songs. and you're now recording a song with dave stewart from the eurythmics, which is against the war, as part of an anti—war album. you're one of the stars on it, and it's called stand together with ukraine, charity, all the proceedings will go there. so you are using culture as a form of protest, like bob dylan. it's not a protest. i just want to help hundreds of people whom i know in ukraine, and thousands and tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands

people whom i don't know. he sings in russian because definitely, there is one terrible thing apart from the war, another terrible thing happening is what they call ukraine fatigue. nobody wants to hear about ukraine any more. and this is not good because people are still there, people are still being killed, bombarded, raped. and we cannot forget about this. i know that it's people nature to forget about bad things once they get used to them,

but not here. so, that's why i'm calling it stand together with ukraine, to let the people in ukraine know that the world is with them, the world is not forgetting them. and the amount of incredible people who just said, "yes, we want to give you the song for this album." so i want people of ukraine to wake up and understand that the world is with them. and i'm not a star on this album. i don't even sing on there. well, apart from this little thing that they've asked me to sing. do you think it's important for them to know that there are russians, such as yourself, who stand with them and don't want the world to forget? one ukrainian friend said very true thing, that... he said that the most terrible thing right now is that both sides, ukrainians and russians,

are becoming beasts. they are losing their humanity. it's easy to lose your humanity when you're at war, but it never... it pays very bad dividends because it takes generations to heal this. that's what i'm trying to do. i'm doing this not as russian. i'm doing itjust as a human being. i want people to know that all of us are with them. i mean, you say it's exacting huge dividends on both sides, and i know that you say you only went to university to dodge going into the army when... no, cos i wanted to have fun. but also you managed to avoid going into the army by becoming a student. oh, yes. so i'lljust tell you what, james stavridis, the american former supreme allied commander of nato, has said of those

russian soldiers and those who've been drafted to fight in ukraine. he says, "almost certainly they will become yet another wave of cannon fodder launched at ukrainian positions." and we see them dying in huge numbers or being wounded. that's one of the terrors of this war and one of the crimes of people who are in kremlin. it's a crime against their own people. they committed the crime against ukraine and they're committing the crime against their own people, against russia. i mean, how does it make you feel when you see those young men becoming — getting killed or maimed? i see that they could be my children, or grandchildren, or whatever. i just want to explore a bit more with you the role of culture as a form of protest. i know you said that you don't do it as a form of protest, but nevertheless, being russian

and being a cultural icon, such as yourself, inevitably you are getting drawn into the politics of the ukraine war. and i'm thinking of people like russia's star conductor valery gergiev, who was the chief conductor of the munich philharmonic in germany. and he was dropped by his management because of his close ties to president putin, and he's been removed from performances all around the world for not condemning the war. do you think that's a fair outcome? it depends on the person. i'm not authorised to judge gergiev, it's... what he's doing is what he's doing. but some people have their hands clean, and they should not be refused the possibility of doing what they're doing.

i mean, i've known a lot... i've known ukrainian ballet dancers who cannot dance the music, the ballet by tchaikovsky, which is, you know, stupidity, but it happens. but, i mean, what we're seeing, others, that's happened. i mean, in poland, polish national opera cancelled a production of mussorgsky�*s boris godunov, because they were worried that, you know, the kind of message it would give. we've seen a pianist, alexander malofeev, saw his debut in canada cancelled simply because he was russian. are you worried about a demonisation of russian artists? you see, no, i never worry about stupidity because it can be healed. there was a great russian poet, mandelstam, who was killed in the labour camps in the �*30s. another great russian poet,

nikolay gumilyov, who was killed during the revolution. the thing is, are they responsible for what stalin and the communists were doing? no, they were killed for that. so, culture is one thing. politics is another thing. politics uses culture. but culture is much, much, much more real. politics is always fake because, you know, we hire the politicians to help us live. we hire them. they are people for hire, so... but in the recent world, they're taking themselves seriously, like they have a power. they don't — people have the power, not them. but what about russian artists saying, "look, we understand the anti—russian sentiment?" and i'll give you an example —

anna netrebko, the renowned russian soprano, she has cancelled all her upcoming performances and she says, "this is not the right time for me to be performing and making music." another — artists such as kirill savchenkov and alexandra sukhareva said on instagram, "there is no place for art when civilians are dying under the fire of missiles." i think this is complete rubbish, because culture helps people to live. to make us cultured, to make us better, to give us light and energy, and love and everything, which is needed in times of war as much as it's needed at any other time. so we need culture, even though the war is raging, and we need more and more of it. we need music, we need everything. but when you see these cancellations, as i said, you know, like valery gergiev, i tell you... you know, do such bans backfire? what's the impact? because the russian pianist,

alexander malofeev, says, "i know the way my country, russia, functions. when pressed against the wall, the russians only cluster more tightly around the leadership." some people have tendency to think, some people do not. people who do not think, they need somebody to think for them. obviously, it's going to be people in power. so, but people who think, they can easily see if something is going wrong. they may be mistaken for a while, but they will never be mistaken for long. i know you don't like being compared to america's bob dylan... no, no, no, idon't mind, i just think that bob dylan is much more of a genius. well, i mean, he is a nobel laureate, but even so. but anyway, you have said that one thing you and he have in common is that you are both building bridges, and bob dylan built the bridge

between american folk and rock and roll. and you say you've been trying to build bridges between western culture and russia. do you think that culture really can help to break down barriers, say, between russians and americans, or the west? i think the role of culture is much, much, much more. and it's not western culture. i'm building for eastern culture and western culture and northern culture and southern culture, all of them. there's one big culture — this is the human culture. and the culture helps humans to be themselves, because without culture, we would be animals. culture makes us human. and my role, as i see it, is to bring the russian part of the human culture, to...up—to—date and up to the level of the best of culture that exists in the world.

but you're fighting a losing battle now, aren't you? people, as i said, don't want to listen to russian culture. what's the use of fighting the winning battle? i'm always fighting the losing battle. it's much more interesting. but, i mean, you say you can't translate american culture to russian, one, because the conditions are very different. this is something you've said. and the people are very different. yeah, so, again, i put it to you, you're fighting a losing battle, aren't you? yes, and i will win it. but, i mean... i always do. ..in what way do you think you can use culture as a tool? because even if i move the limits one millimetre further, that's already a great victory. i want to make russian songs, russian music, as good as anything that's happening in the world. and it will help everybody — ukrainians, russians, americans, indians, whoever. i just want to ask, because, you know, your career has, as i said, mirrored a lot of stages in the life of what was the soviet

union and then russia. president gorbachev, mikhail gorbachev, who came to power in 1985, introduced glasnost as an opening—up of russian society. we saw the economic reforms under perestroika, and underground bands such as yours, aquarium, could at last perform and record legally. so did you really think then that russia was at a turning point, that it had changed for good, for the better? yes, i was living under this illusion for about a day—and—a—half somewhere in �*91. oh, very short. yeah, then i looked around and i understood that nothing will change. time shows that i was right. but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about this country, because it's a great country, and it has a lot of great people. it has a lot of terrible people, as well,

as any other country. but myjob is to provide for people who want to get better. but how worried are you? because we are seeing, obviously, a huge deterioration in relations between russia and the west, and indeed many other countries. you know, we've even seen lukewarm support now or words from china and india, you know, traditional allies or whatever of russia. are you worried that there will be a new cold war that will last a very long time? you lived through the last cold war. i don't think it means a lot because what we see now is a huge movement of peoples like in bible times, you know, like millions of people move from here to there. and it's changing the world. so when millions of bright young people suddenly go from russia into the big, wild world, it will change russia. and it will change the world

because russia being left without these people will have to generate a new generation of bright people. and the bright people emigrated, who — not emigrate, who just went away to live elsewhere, they will be making the world better, and ukrainians as well. finally, boris grebenshchikov, you said, "for me, as a musician, conditions here in russia are always much better than elsewhere. this is my place where the people i love are, where the people need what we're doing, need my songs, and i need these people." do you still believe that, living here in london for the last few years? no, i know it. you know, thousands of people are writing to me from russia, from ukraine, from all over the world. and what we are doing, they need it. and that makes me, you know, busy. now, boris grebenshchikov, it would be lovely if you could play something for us.

you've got your guitar here, away you go. what are you going to play? i think that old, very old song that i've written about a0 years ago. but it's good for today. what's it called? "silver of my lord." and that was a big hit for you in russia. he sings in russian

hello. wednesday gets off to a windy start. a wet start in northern and western areas. we've got an area of low pressure which is spinning up across the uk, will quickly move on towards scandinavia. a trailing weather front from it, though, that will take rain southwards to those parts that will actually begin wednesday dry. and then, following on behind, it will be sunshine and blustery showers. this is how things look at 6am — it'll be a wet night in northern ireland across much of scotland. some heavier rain at this stage, wales, northwest england. look how mild it is, though, through wales and england in particular as the day begins. now, quite quickly, the rain out of northern ireland, it'll be out of much of scotland by the end of the morning. brighter sky's following on behind with scattered showers, some heavy and maybe thundery, moving through quickly on gusty winds. wales, northern and western england should be turning drier into the afternoon with sunny spells, chance of a shower.

and through the afternoon, a brief spell of rain moving through east anglia and the southeast. after what is a dry start to the day here, maybe a few sunny spells. it is a windy day, these are some of the wind gusts — there'll be stronger ones through irish sea coast in particular, north wales, northwest england very windy to begin the day. and temperatures actually come down a bit once the rain has moved on through, so it will feel cooler and particularly fresher into the afternoon — of course, that's helped by that gusty wind. and we continue with some showers moving in overnight, wednesday into thursday, particularly towards the northwest of the uk, mayjust merge to give a longer spell of rain moving in here. it will become mainly dry the further south you are, through wales and england. lower temperatures, so a cooler start to the day on thursday. high pressure to the south, keeping many southern areas essentially dry on thursday, whereas another set of weather fronts are coming close to northern ireland and scotland. so here, there'll be a few showers around to begin the day, but the idea will be that it will tend to cloud over, and we'll start to see some outbreaks of rain coming back into northern ireland and pushing parts of scotland — by the end of the day, some of this could be

quite heavy in places. notice further south, though, it is mainly dry and, in fact, there'll be quite a bit of sunshine around here. more heavy rain in parts of northern ireland and scotland overnight and into friday, then pushing through wales and england on friday — very slowly, mind you. behind it, the further north you are, you're back into the sunny skies, brisk wind still. there'll be some showers around, some of them could be heavy, maybe with a rumble of thunder. an area of high pressure nosing in across the uk to give many places a dry start to the weekend, before we see further outbreaks of rain, mainly to the north and west, as we go on through sunday.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. the headlines: as ukraine retakes more territory, we have an extended report on the areas being abandoned by russian forces and the high price being paid. russian army uniforms and birds, all of this cast aside by russian troops. what happened here wasn'tjust a defeat for president putin. it was a complete humiliation. hundreds of thousands of people in somalia are facing extreme hunger after the worst drought in a0 years. 300,000 people are living in

famine conditions with another 2