this is bbc news, the headlines: g7 leaders have reassured ukraine's president zelensky that they are steadfast in their commitment to ukraine. during an emergency meeting, leaders condemned a second day of russian missile strikes and discussed what more they can do to support ukraine. president zelensky called for more help with air defence. us prosecutors have dropped all charges against adnan syed, a baltimore man at the centre of a murder case which gave rise to the true crime podcast, serial. he was released from prison last month after spending half his life in jail. funerals have been taking place in thailand for those who were killed at a nursery last week when a former policeman went on a rampage.

a total of thirty seven people — including 23 children — were killed in an attack that has shocked the nation. those are the headlines. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. lebanon is experiencing one of the most disastrous economic collapses of the last 100 years. the national economy is less than half the size it was just three years ago. one powerful symbol of the catastrophe, people are holding up banks in a desperate attempt to get their money out, amid rampant inflation and a currency crisis. my guest is lebanon's minister of economy and trade, amin salam. politicians have failed lebanon for decades. will that change before

the meltdown is complete? minister amin salam, currently in washington, dc, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you, stephen, glad to be with you. well, we're delighted to have you in our washington studio. let me ask you, minister, do you think you and your government are levelling with the lebanese people, and indeed with the international community as well, about the scale of the economic catastrophe that your country is currently living through?

absolutely. stephen, let me tell you, it has been quite a challenging year since our government took office and we started really working on a very tough mission to recover the economy in lebanon and to fix all the mess that the past two decades have left lebanon in. our government came with a big title that had really a saving approach to lebanon, a recovery approach to lebanon, a hard working approach to lebanon at a very difficult time where we had multiple things moving along at the same time, including some regional challenges, including some maritime border issues, including an imf deal. all that is mixed up with a very difficult social and economic collapse for the country.

we indeed have made a lot of positive accomplishments or i wouldn't call them accomplishments, but steps in the right direction to save the country. we have reached a preliminary staff level agreement with the imf, which for us was a big deal because it is really putting the train on the right tracks. however, as you mentioned, yes, the pressure is very strong. the living standards, the living situations, poverty levels, energy crisis are all really still present on a day to day basis in every lebanese... ..for every lebanese citizen we have. let me stop you right there, because i'm mindful that the reality for the people of lebanon is quite simple. more than 80% of them,

according to the united nations, are now living in poverty. many of them have no access to piped water. they do not get electricity any more. they are dependent, many of them, on emergency assistance. this in a country which prided itself for years on its prosperity. why would they believe a single optimistic promise that you have just delivered to me? let me tell you, stephen, i have been really arming myself and arming our government with a lot of optimism. and i kept... they used to, you know, they still do call me the optimistic minister because i'm very hopeful and i'm very confident that lebanon, as we did in the past, will manage to get out of this crisis. we have a lot of... the danger is they won't continue to call you the optimist.

they'll start to call you the fantasist, because you have gone to washington to talk to the imf. you say we have an outline agreement with them, which i believe goes back to april. but in august, the world bank, also based in washington, said that the truth is lebanon's resources have been captured for political patronage and private gain. and then the following month, in september, the imf said that you are moving far too slowly to make good on the promises and commitments you had delivered in april. so on that basis, it's not optimism, it's fantasy. no, no, no. i totally agree with you. on one side of this equation, stephen, is that i agree. we were late. those prior actions that the imf asked for our government to get done or ask for the entire lebanese

government to get done, not only the cabinet should have been done about five months ago, but lebanon, as you know, goes through a lot of political turmoil. and we have had elections, parliamentary elections, that really played a big role in delaying all this process at least three to four months, two months prior to the elections and two months post elections, because most of the decisions that our government was taking, including the prior actions that were requested by the imf, none of them were very popular decisions. they were all very difficult decisions. so the previous parliament didn't want to adopt them, even though we put them in a form of draft laws. and the new the new parliament as well, didn't want to adopt them immediately without doing further research and study into them. that really made us waste about four months. it was really hard luck

for lebanon that... forgive me, minister, but even now, i mean, you're kind of implying... well, yeah, we've had a few problems, but we've got over them. but you haven't really got over them. your parliament still lacks a workable coalition. it is a hung parliament. they passed a budget, as far as i understand it, in september, but a budget which many independent observers say was completely unrealistic when it comes to spending and revenues, not least because you used an exchange rate for your lebanese pound against the dollar, which was entirely unrealistic given the exchange rate on the black market. so even as of now with the budget that you have, your government isn't facing reality. well, well, let me explain this approach, stephen, to the budget and to many of the draft laws that we worked on and passed to the parliament for final approval as we were going into our eight weeks of negotiations with the imf prior to getting to a staff

level agreement deal, we literally put on the table about 12 scenarios that really tackled all those issues and most of those draft laws, including the budget, the capital controls law, the banking secrecy law, the banking restructuring law. none of the scenarios we put on the table, stephen, was easy. they were all very difficult, very challenging scenarios. it is true you mention now that the budget was not very realistic as far as the numbers go, but the minister of finance in lebanon himself, in his own words, said that this is not the ideal budget. this is an emergency budget. it's not a budget, really, with a with a major economic vision. it's that word again, it's a fantasy budget. that's a budgetjust to, you know, get the get the government and get the numbers straight.

exactly. it's a budget to get the government off the hook. it bears no relation to reality. and you're funded... let's get down to detail. one of your big problems... and i acknowledge you're not the minister of finance, you're the minister of economy and trade. so this isn't directly your responsibility. but you must acknowledge in your role that it is a total catastrophe, that your currency crisis simply gets worse, not better. you've got at least three different exchange rates. your official rate is, what, 1,500 lebanese pounds to the dollar? the actual street rate is something like 37,000 lebanese pounds to the dollar. nobody in your country believes that your banks are anything other than bust, and that's why so many lebanese people are queuing around the block trying to get their money out of the banks. the banks have now closed, and the only way it seems to get any cash, your own cash, out of a bank in lebanon is to hold it up with a gun.

stephen, there is no easy way out of this. we are really...we are really trying to fix a mess that is two or three decades old, based on corruption and mismanagement of our monetary policies, of our economic vision. we had 20 years where this system and past governments really destroyed this economy, really mismanaged all the monies of the people. we had a central bank as well that lent the government for the past 20 years with no restrictions. this is a mess that needs a lot of work. but, minister, iagree with you that your budget, your current budget has cooked the numbers to make them add up, when in reality they don't. so it's understandable that your people have no faith right now in your government's economic policies, in the strength of your currency,

which, of course, has collapsed and indeed in the viability of the banks. that's why people are going in with guns, holding them up to get their money out while they can before it becomes worthless. and to me, what you're telling me doesn't seem to fix the problem. no, no, no, absolutely. it absolutely doesn't fix the problem, stephen, because the people have been really. . .they lost trust in all the governments that passed in the past at least three years since the crisis really hit hard lebanon, because many of those actions that the imf today is asking for, they should have been taken by previous governments three years ago. so the budget should have been done three years ago. capital control to protect money. people should have been done three years ago. thinking about restructuring the banking sector and working on banking secrecy law to fight corruption again should have been done three years ago. so we are trying

to fix that now. and again, i go back to the budget. i tell you, this budget is only a starting point because there was no way we could start with a perfect budget and now we are working on budget 2023, which looks totally different, has a totally different approach for next year because we know that the budget that was passed this year needed a lot of refinement. i was not a big fan of it myself as part of the cabinet, but we had to start somewhere. 0k. it's not the best one. we had to start somewhere. we can talk economic policymaking, we can talk budgets, and then we can talk the real lives of ordinary lebanese people. so just going back to these people, and there are dozens of them in recent weeks and months, who have in the end resorted to bank holdups to try and get their cash out of the banks. and as we speak, the banks are essentially closed to retail customers. tell me, do you have sympathy, for example, for the young

woman aged 28 who held up a bank allegedly with a toy pistol because she was so desperate to get money out to pay for the cancer care for her sister? her case is currently going through the courts. i just want to know for you as a minister, but also as a human being, do you have deep sympathy with what she did? i certainly do have deep sympathy with that particular lady and with most or all lebanese people that are really suffering and trying to find solutions where their governments have failed to give them solutions. as i said, those solutions should have been found years and years ago, at least since the crisis started. we should have put restrictions as to how we handle the banking issue because we knew every government that passed this one and the one before and the one before, they knew that we should have put a legal framework. i come from a legal background, stephen, and i am against violence. but when the people felt

of lebanon that the government did not really manage properly the relationship between the banks, thejudiciary system and the clients of those banks or the lebanese citizens, they were fearful and they are more fearful today than ever before, that whatever is left from their funds might disappear... exactly. ..because they... minister, should those people who have in desperation held up banks trying to get their money out, should they be punished or not? i would say in those emergency times that we're passing by, again, as i said, i am against going against anything illegal. i am against violence. should they be punished or not? i think the judiciary system, the judiciary system should be sympathetic with them as long as they don't harm any souls, they don't really injure or harm anyone. they should be handled very delicately because those people are really suffering.

they are asking for a solution that they have not received yet. but i am against anybody resorting to violence and breaking the law. but i think they should... ok, that's clear. one of the big problems that the lebanese people see is endemic, massive corruption. now, injuly 2020, a former senior official in the ministry of finance said that while, even then, many, many controls had been put on cash withdrawals from lebanese banks, that ordinary lebanese people were really tightly controlled in terms of access to their money. he said more than $6 billion was being smuggled out of the country by what he called a dirty money elite. it seems, according to lebanese media reports, that is still going on. there is still one rule for the political elite in your country and something entirely different for the ordinary lebanese people.

when are you going to fix that? stephen, i am one of the ministers that came to this government with a mission of change and to fight corruption. i came from many years of living overseas as an international lawyer, and my mission, when i decided to come to lebanon and be in public service was to fight corruption, to fight what you calljust now the political elite that have been holding hostage this country for the past 30 years. and i absolutely agree with the official from the ministry of finance. yes. prior to the complete meltdown two years ago, a lot of politicians that were aware of where they took the country the past two decades knew what is coming. they knew where we are heading. and, yes, many of them have smuggled their money out of the country. i'm not sure about the numbers,

but i know it's in the hundreds of millions and probably billions of dollars. now, minister, minister... we have... we've got a lot to get through. and i want to be as quick as possible. what you seem to be saying is that realistically, lebanon's problems date back decades and that endemic corruption, economic mismanagement, both on the monetary and fiscal side, have been endemic forfar too long. in that context... it has been. yes. it has been endemic for at least the past 25 years. interesting, then, is it not, that the governor of the central bank, riad salameh, has been post for the best part of 30 years? does that make sense to you? no, it doesn't make any sense to me. i mean, with all due respect to the gentleman on a personal level, but it's not appropriate. he should have been changed

quite a long time ago because even ten years ago there were a lot of indicators. many economists know that myself as a lawyer and an economist working overseas, i saw that the central bank was mismanaging the monies of the people and the monies of the government. and nothing really... no action was taken. earlier, earlier this year, mr salameh was charged with money laundering in a lebanese court. he's also... he, of course, denies all wrongdoing, it should be said. he also is facing serious investigation in france and switzerland, along with associates in terms of money laundering and embezzlement. what does it say about your country that he is still the governor of the central bank? it simply says that something is still wrong, stephen, and i would not hide behind my thumb, as we say in lebanon, because, yes, there is something still wrong

in the structure. we are coming to really work on changing that. we worked on passing an anti—corruption law very recently. that is why as well we are working on lifting the ban or passing the banking secrecy law, particularly for public service people to be able to open all accounts and do a full forensic audit on the central bank. all right. the president of lebanon has been pushing for... if the governor of the central bank is listening... i dare say he's very interested that such a senior minister is saying that. so that's on the record and that's interesting. quickly, let's move on to another of your key areas of responsibility — that is trying to deliver food security for lebanon at a time, again, of catastrophic crisis. you were 70% reliant on ukraine for your wheat supplies. you had the terrible explosion in your port in 2020, which destroyed your major grain silos. you have promised that

new silos will be built in your role as one of the chiefs of food security in lebanon. where are those new silos? it's more than two years since the port explosion. where are they? yes, that's true. lebanon lacks emergency reserves of grains because we lost the silos in beirut port explosion. and that, again, is a perfect demonstration, stephen, of the mismanagement of previous lebanese governments. and i say that not to put the blame on them and lift the blame on us, but there is no country in the world that puts all its national reserves in one location, that shows you that reflects lack of vision. every country has at least two or three locations for national reserves, for food security. lebanon had only one location, and it was entirely destroyed after the beirut port...

more than two years on, just to be clear, you haven't managed to build any new significant storage facility, right? that... that is very true. because, stephen, we had three problems. so when i took office, part of my mission was basically to seek funding to work on a feasibility study to build three new locations, which i fully completed. right. but now we are working on seeking funding from the european union, from the world bank. this is part of my... well, it comes back to that issue of confidence and trust and whether the international community has it in you and your government. let's end with. .. i know this interview has been a bit bleak and a bit negative because there's so much to be negative about. but let's end with one positive thought. as i understand it, your government with american mediation, has agreed with israel to define a maritime border, which will allow both countries, israel and lebanon, to begin to explore and produce natural gas from those fields

in the mediterranean sea. now, that could mean a massive windfall in the future for lebanon, but why would the lebanese people believe that their government is capable of spending that money responsibly and using it to save the economy? well, to start with, yes, stephen, this is this is absolutely excellent news that we received today. it has not been officially announced yet by both governments, but i have received news that we are in the final hours of getting this official announcement out. this is a big game changer. lebanon will bejoining the oil and gas club, which means bringing back confidence to the country, bringing back, you know, fast tracking, potentially an imf agreement, potentially... minister, with respect, it doesn't automatically bring

confidence back to lebanon. it only brings confidence... no, no, no. ..if the imf and your people believe that your government will behave responsibly with this new source of revenue. we are banking. we are banking, stephen, on the fact that once the imf agreement is there, the imf will hold the lebanese government accountable. the reason we are seeking an imf deal is because we know that we need somebody to be on top of this government to put a work scope and to audit every three months how we're going to spend our monies. this is why we are seeking an imf work plan, not because the imf is only going to give us money, but the imf�*s will help us manage this money, will help us manage our economy, will help us manage our banking sector. so the imf�*s role is... in a couple of words, because we're almost out of time. in a couple of words, are you going to get a bailout deal with the imf in the next

few days or weeks? after today's news, stephen, i'm very optimistic we will be heading towards an imf agreement. i wouldn't say in the next few days, but i would say we are getting very closer to that. it might be weeks, it might be a month, i'm not sure, but i'm very positive that we will be heading in that positive direction. amin salam, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed.

hello. a chilly start again on wednesday morning across parts of east anglia and southeast england. the rest of the uk will be milder, cloudier, breezier, and you may be seeing some rain around. in fact, a damp start across much of scotland and northern ireland courtesy of this weather front, and that will take some outbreaks of rain into much of wales and parts of england during the day. it'll be very patchy and showery in nature. now, temperatures first thing, quite a contrast — from the ii in belfast, in glasgow, to the coldest parts of eastern and southeast england that won't be too far away from freezing. more cloud here compared with tuesday, but likely to stay dry until after dark. the rain, early on in northern ireland, clearing by lunchtime, taking till the afternoon before it pulls away from southeast scotland. sunny spells following behind into scotland and northern ireland, but for much of england and wales it'll be cloudy outbreaks of rain across northern england, wales, pushing into parts of the midlands and southwest england as the day goes on. 18 to the southeast of the weather front, behind it, we're talking mid—to—low teens. it'll be into the evening, then, east anglia and southeast england start to see some outbreaks of rain —

it'll be a milder night here into thursday morning. elsewhere, with clearing skies, it'll be a colder night and it'll start thursday not farfrom freezing in parts of scotland, northern ireland, maybe northern england as well. a few fog patches in wales and england gradually clearing, a lot of fine weather to begin the day. but during thursday, some outbreaks of rain just fringing in towards the far south of england. some uncertainty about the northern extent of that. and a separate weather system will bring some rain into northern and western scotland and parts of northern ireland during the day. in between the two, though, actually quite a bit of fine weather. much of eastern scotland staying dry as well. so, here's a look at these two weather systems. the first one here will bring some strong winds, particularly into friday, and to the far north of scotland. and going into the weekend, there's another area of low pressure that will come into the uk. so, a very blustery day on friday, particularly in scotland, in the far north, and northern isles could see some gusts in excess of 60 mph. lots of showers moving into northern and western scotland, northern ireland. and a few will move a bit further south through parts of wales and england during the day. but there will also be

plenty of sunny spells, and the further south you are, you will stay mainly dry. so, into the weekend, another area of low pressure coming our way. will be a blustery weekend as a result, and there will be some showers or some longer spells of rain around, but not all the time. there'll be some drier, sunnier spells, too.

this is bbc news, i'm sally bundock with the latest headlines, for viewers in the uk and around the world. the pound falls sharply after the bank of england announces an end to its emergency pension industry intervention — how will this affect the uk's financial stability? as russia launches more wreck missile strikes against ukraine, western countries say they will support the ukrainians for as long as it takes. a bbc investigation finds tiktok takes up to 70% of the donations through their app given to displaced families in syria. thriving in one of the world's toughest environments, we meet the greenland communities on the frontline of climate change.