this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. in the increasingly overt struggle between western liberal democracy and authoritarianism, hong kong's position is unique. it is chinese sovereign territory granted special autonomous status under a handover deal done with britain. many hong kongers hoped that deal would guarantee theirfreedoms, but those hopes have been crushed.

my guest is ted hui, a hong kong pro—democracy politician exiled in australia and convicted in absentia by a hong kong court. has beijing neutralised hong kong's dissenters? thank you. my pleasure to talk to you. you, of course, arejoining me from australia because you fled from your home, from hong kong, in late 2021, and you said you left with a very heavy heart. did you also leave with a sense of defeat?

i don't, because... it's common that people might think that way. it's like an escapist guilt. but as long as i'm still fighting, as long as i'm still speaking up for hong kong's freedom and democracy, doing my lobbying works and advocacy work, i don't feel that at all. i feel that it's a new battleground for me to speak out so that the world hears hong kong. you fled whilst facing charges. you were on bail. did it come as a surprise to you, what happened to you? cos you'd been a legislator in the legislative council, you'd been an activist on the streets. i'm just wondering whether the fact that you ran into so much trouble with the authorities, was it something that you foresaw and that you were prepared for? yes and no, because in the past, there's been political prosecutions

and criminal charges against dissidents. it's not something new for hong kong. but what i couldn't expect is the extent. so, i expected that i'll be in some type of trouble and maybe being locked up for weeks or months. but then after the national security law has been introduced and the whole tactic of the regime has changed, they want to lock up all dissidents and lock them up for a very long time, if not forever, so they want to crush the whole opposition totally, that's something i couldn't expect — such a change, a very sudden change, during 2020. right. but nonetheless, you, it has to be said, took the course of confrontation. i mean, some politicians, even in your own democratic party, decided to sort of, you know, make their voices heard in the legco, the legislative council, but they weren't necessarily taking to the streets. you, on the other hand, joined the mass protests in 2019. i think you were —

correct me if i'm wrong — arrested ten times in the course of your career, four times in 2019 alone. you must have known that your tactics, the direct confrontation approach, was going to lead to big trouble. yeah. why did i do that? because... i haven't spent too long in the legislature, in my parliament. i spent only four years, serving forfour years. but then i felt immediately that every moment i stood up in the chamber, in the parliament, speaking towards speaker, it's like endorsing the regime, the very undemocratic regime. so to me, it's more meaningful to march with the people in the street. i felt the most powerful and most glorious moments being the representative of the people. i knew, as i said, there would be problems, there would be troubles. but then...

i expected it, but i didn't expect criminal charges for very serious charges and a sentence would be for that long — because i would expect illegal assemblies, something of...kind of that nature, and that's something that i can take. but then it turned out i was wrong. did you...? i'm just interested to know whether you fell out with some of your other pro—democracy colleagues in the democratic party, in the legislature, who didn't take your approach? did they actually tell you, "you know what, ted? "you're wrong and this could be counterproductive"? we had our struggles, we had our debates, heated debates, because at that time, no—one knew which approach was right. but then i only followed my instincts, that i shouldn't let the world see hong kong as being quite democratic and quite free and you can speak out and do whatever you like while it's not at all.

so i'd rather stand with the people and to reveal the very, very dark side of the regimes and to let the world see the very dark nature that we didn't have ourfreedom and it was all a fake image, propaganda created by the beijing/hong kong regimes. i'd rather the world see that, and to let the world see that, the way that you do it is to confront it. and so that.... when it fights back, you see what your real opponent really is like. on a personal level, you did manage... having fled to copenhagen, then to britain, and obviously now settled in australia, at least for the time being, you did manage to get yourfamily out, too. yes, idid. and i would say that i'm very lucky. so, to my understanding, i'm the only one hong kong politician in exile that left with my family. so i have nothing to fear, nothing to lose.

and i decided so because i don't want my family to be political hostages. if they are locked up in hong kong or they have trouble in hong kong, i don't think i can speak up at all. so now, i can be very high—profile. i fear about nothing. so the beijing, the hong kong regime can't harm me and my family at all. that's my... that's the reason behind my move. i find that fascinating, that you can tell me you have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. i mean, you're in a unique position because the hong kong courts have followed through with a trial in your absence. they've now convicted you and you face years in prison. are you not frightened that, by one means or another, china is determined to bring you tojustice in hong kong? and we've seen in other cases where they act beyond their own borders that they have different ways that they may try to reach you.

that's a valid question. and for my personal choice, i'm very determined that i wouldn't go back to hong kong to face jail unreasonably for a very long time. but you're right that we have seen dissidents — chinese dissidents, hong kong dissidents — being kidnapped by, you know, underground police officers or ccp agencies. so that can happen, so i'm being very careful in selecting the places that i can travel to. i wouldn't travel to any countries where there's an extradition agreement with hong kong or china, so i wouldn't go to africa or the middle east or most of asia. i'm being very careful so that i can continue to fight. a senior figure, a former director of operations, in britain's secret intelligence service said

recently that china has now an extraordinary network of intelligence operation, surveillance and monitoring in many, many countries overseas. i just wonder whether you feel in adelaide, australia that you are being surveilled and monitored? i don't think so, for the moment. i've been quite cautious in the past year, after my exile. i look around and i look behind, to see whether there are people following me. i can say i am quite well—trained. just... the months before i left hong kong, i was being followed on a day—to—day basis by ccp agencies, intelligence people, the police, the paparazzi. so i've been well—trained, but i haven't figured out... i haven't discovered anyone doing that to me while in australia. so it doesn't mean

that they don't exist, but i think they might be doing it over the internet or, you know, trying to hack my devices, emails, but not physically. i haven't. .. i mean, interesting, because we spoke to nathan lau, another pro—democracy activist who's left hong kong, now based in europe, and he's talked about a constant sense of insecurity, always looking over his shoulder. you say you have no fear, but i'm imagining if you don't have fear, you at least have a profound sense of insecurity. i don't, really don't, because what i do, it's out of my conscience. it's something necessary, something that i must do. i'll do it anyway. so even if they are following me, even they are stalking me, even they are harassing my family in any ways, i don't think i'll stop. if i stop, no—one from hong kong can do it. no—one in hong kong can say one word about fighting

for democracy for hong kong and freedom for hong kong. i feel it's my responsibility, so i have no fear. that's the covert side of what you might be up against. there is the overt side, too. i mean, china is using all sorts of legal channels to try to get the extradition of people they want to put on trial — or, indeed, in your case, having been convicted, put in prison in china or, indeed, in hong kong. now, the countries that have extradition treaties and have shown willingness to send people back include saudi arabia, egypt. interestingly, new zealand has said that it will extradite criminals back to china. you're not in new zealand, but you're in australia. i just wonder whether you are worried that you see china pressuring all sorts of different nations, to try to use legal avenues to get people they want back into theirjudicial system. does that worry you? i wouldn't say i'm 100% safe.

and i think about those possibilities of being extradited back to hong kong or china, but then i think it's myjob to put that into test. for example, if one day — and that's really my plan — to travel to new zealand, i'll have to apply for a visitor's visas. so would the new zealand government treat me as a criminal for my criminal record, bunches of criminal records, or they would grant me a visa despite all my records? so wouldn't it be my duty to put them to test, whether they are on the side of freedom or democracy or they're on the side of the tyranny, you know, because of the economic relationships, and they would just convict me? well, you've laid out a test there, a test for the world about how it responds to what is undoubtedly chinese power and primarily

chinese economic power. now that you're sitting there as a pro—democracy democracy activist in exile in australia, you tell me — what do you make of the world's ability and determination to stand up for, quote—unquote, freedom in the face of economic pressure from beijing? i'm thinking notjust of extradition treaties, but i'm thinking of what some say is a worrying trend towards self—censorship, from university campuses to journalism to a whole host of figures who now are very careful about speaking out against china. do you feel china is using its muscle in that way? i do feel so. china is using its soft powers, economic powers and some kind of indirect influences in all walks of life, in different countries — what we call infiltrations. in australia, i believe it's very serious. i can feel it when i do speeches in universities.

and they don't tell me directly, "0h, we are quite afraid," but they have reserves sometimes to invite me or to allow me to speak in their lecture halls. i can feel it, so... but then that is why i feel it's myjob to put them in the test as well, so that the society, the local australian society, can see whether they are afraid and what they are afraid of. and they can feel the infiltration and the censorship, the self—censorship, that the government is imposing onto themselves. i think this is a good thing against these kinds of confrontations. let the world see the real nature, not only the ccp regime's but their own government's, and how vulnerable they can be when they are in front of economic interests or other interests. what is the long—term direction, do you think, of these relationships? and again, it's very interesting that you're in australia because the last australian government,

led by scott morrison, had a pretty poisonous relationship with beijing and a lot of trade deals were lost and australia's government was determined, it seems, to make a stand against beijing. now you've got a new prime minister in australia, mr albanese, and it's. .. rhetorically, he says, and his team say, they're as committed as ever to standing up to chinese pressure, to defend freedom. do you really believe that? or do you think in the long run, because australia's commodity sector, for example, really needs a strong trading relationship with china, that things may change? well, australia is a democracy. the government always look to its peoples and what the general, the popular sentiment is. so i can feel it as i'm in australia — the popular sentiment is against china, is against the chinese oppressions to the world

and spreading threats, military threats, and the taking away of freedoms in hong kong and taiwan. the general public�*s feelings... i don't think with that background, the new government can get very close to china, even if it wants a more close, closer economic relationship with china, morejob opportunities, more trade. i think there's no going back when china is still like a wolf warrior diplomatically... well, the thing is, at the very beginning of this interview, you said you didn't feel defeated and the fight continues and you're determined to win it. but how do you feel? leave aside australia. but generally, you say the wolf warrior diplomacy of china will not succeed, but look at this. the un rights council recently voted down a western—led motion to hold a debate on alleged human rights abuses by the chinese government against the uyghur population

and the muslim minority population in xinjiang in china. when you as a human rights activist see china wielding that sort of influence and power at the united nations, surely that leaves you feeling pretty hopeless? yeah, sometimes you can't avoid that feeling. and i admit that it takes time. but look at myself. i'm a fine example. i am still safe here. i don't feel the australian government, in any chance, want to extradite me, won't send me back to hong kong or china, or perhaps one day they will grant me asylum. so, in that sense, i think it's a battle to fight on. it's not a winning battle. we don't know yet, but i can see that democracies in free countries in the world are uniting. they are joining hands together into one stronger camp for democracy and freedom. that, i can see, is essential for checks and balances against the growing economic power or political power china is going to be.

let's now turn from the international context, in which you work now as an activist in exile, to what is actually happening on the ground in hong kong itself, because, of course, you still have very close contacts there. would you acknowledge that... i do. yeah. would you acknowledge that the sort of pro—democracy opposition to the authorities in hong kong, obviously now clearly dominated by instruction from beijing, the opposition has been, in essence, neutralised? to be honest, i can see that, i can feel that. there's no opposition in hong kong now. they are either in jails or silenced or in exile. so in the parliament, there's no oppositions because they are not allowed to run in public elections after the change of

the electoral systems in 2021. and there's no free speech, there's no free press, so all the pro—democracy newspapers and media organisations are forced to be disbanded. there's no civil societies. so, in general, there's no opposition. but then, in a way, they are laying low. it's a good way to stay safe. i really don't want to see more and more young people going into jails. so that's. .. i believe the battle goes back to the international battle front, not directly from hong kong. i don't believe anyone can see massive demonstrations in the streets any more under the draconian laws. hong kong has changed. maybe the elimination of the opposition that you are so frank about isn'tjust because of what you describe as wholesale repression. maybe china's message is getting through to hong kongers as well, because they characterise this as being all about patriotism —

that to support the national security law, to support the new chief minister, john lee, to support the system that beijing is imposing on hong kong is to be patriotic. and maybe that's a message that's getting through. i think you're absolutely right. and the world absolutely see how ridiculous the patriotism card is. to the ccp, to the hong kong regime, being patriotic equals supporting the government. if you're not patriotic, you are not supporting government, and the consequence is that you are not allowed to run for the parliament, you are thrown in jails and you are not allowed to run your media businesses. so i believe this is a card that they would use continuously in the future to eliminate all dissent. you say this brand of patriotism is ridiculous, but surely in the context, the global context of a china which says it's now locked

in a struggle against western imperialism — and it points, of course, to taiwan and to a whole host of other issues where it says it must stand up for china's rights in the world. are you sure that that actually doesn't resonate a great deal with hong kongers, who, after all, are ultimately chinese citizens? yeah, but is that persuasive after all? when you ask people to be patriotic, and you ask people to be patriotic by means of using force, using brutal crackdowns and locking people up and there are serious criminal consequences of not obeying to whatever the government is saying to you, that's not patriotism. it's... being patriotic and patriotism is a propaganda, and i don't believe that free countries should follow that path. it's... after all, it's ultimately just propaganda of the beijing regime.

but ultimately, china does have sovereignty over hong kong, so unless you refuse to accept that and you go all out for the notion of an independent hong kong, surely, realistically, there is no way that you can expect china not to do more and more to impose its will on hong kong? i think you are getting to the point, getting to the right point. when i'm out in exile, when i'm lobbying politicians and government officials, i ask them not to stress "0ne country, two systems," because hong kongers, they don't buy it. they don't buy "0ne country, two systems" after 2019, after all the brutal crackdowns, police crackdowns, all the weapons being used, all the young people being sent injails. we want the ccp regime to step down. that's what hong kongers ask for now.

they cannot say it directly, openly, but i can say it on their behalf. i dare say that... right, but that... if i may interrupt, because we're nearly out of time, that turns you from being a politician, working inside a system, to being a sort of exiled revolutionary looking to bring the entire edifice down. are you happy to make that transformation? i'm happy to. i think the world needs a paradigm shift. it's time to question the legality of the ccp regime that rules hong kong. it's time to talk about hong kong's self—determination, not necessarily independence. but it shouldn't be a taboo. it should be an option that people should talk about, openly and freely, by free countries. but if you say that with such clarity, it may be a battle that you can never win. you understand that? you never know, because the world never imagined hong kong can be changed like that in two or three years, that's

so unrecognisable. so, in politics, anything can happen. so, if the world act collectively and be courageous facing the economic threats, military threats, the ccp will impose upon them, i think it's possible, one day, it will be so isolated and it will break down. it will collapse itself. that's our hope and that's our goal. ted hui, thank you very much indeed forjoining me from adelaide, australia. thank you. thank you, steve. hello. although there's some wet and windy weather sweeping its way northwards,

a lot of that is gone for monday, leaving for many areas a largely dry day with sunny spells. here's the area of low pressure. it will pull away northwards. in its wake, it'll be blustery, it'll be bright. still with a few showers around, though, particularly in scotland. this is how we're starting the day, milder air moving northwards overnight and into the morning, the rain still in the far north of scotland that will then move across the northern isles. and in east anglia, in the southeast of england, rain clearing, then a hang back of cloud probably, gradually brightening up during the day. northern ireland, northwest england, perhaps north wales will see a few showers but become mainly dry in the afternoon. showers will continue in scotland, north of the central belt. some quite lengthy downpours around here. and it'll be windy again in all areas. the strongest winds will be in the central belt, southern scotland, northern ireland, northern england, north wales. these are average speeds. we could well see some gusts around a0 to 50 miles per hour. and as for temperatures, well, if you get that sunshine, as many will, especially in england and wales, in the afternoon and out

of the breeze, there'll be some warmth in that still. now, as we go on into monday evening and night, as that low pressure system continues to pull away, there'll still be a few showers around northern scotland. for many, the wind will ease, it'll be dry, skies are clearing, and it will turn chillier than this in more rural spots. so there will be a touch of frost in places as tuesday begins and a day which will offer a lot of dry and sunny weather. more cloud around parts of eastern scotland, northeast england, slight chance of a shower. more cloud towards the far south and south west of england. again, a slight chance of a shower here. the vast majority, though, a dry day. 13 degrees in glasgow, up to around 18 degrees in cardiff. there is another area of low pressure coming our way and, in fact, unlike the others which have swept right the way through, this willjust linger towards the southwest or west of us as the week goes on, starting to bring some showers in. now, wednesday will begin with some cloud around scotland, northeast england. maybe a bit drizzly in places. that's reluctant to clear. it'll make for a rather chilly—feeling day, whereas from that low pressure towards south, southwest

england, wales, into northern ireland in particular, there'll be some showers moving in and some of those could be heavy, perhaps thundery as well. and as the low pressure exerts more of an influence across the uk, from thursday onwards, more places will see some wet weather at times spreading its way northwards.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm monica miller. the headlines: britain's new chancellor defends the prime minister, saying voters don't need the turmoil of a fresh leadership election. what they want is stability. and the worst thing for that would be more political instability at the top, another protracted leadership campaign. china's president stresses the need for continued economic development but defends the nation's covid policy as the communist party gathers in beijing. we've a special report on the impact of somalia's drought, the worst in a0 years, with people walking for days in search of help.

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