tv Talking Business BBC News October 22, 2022 3:30pm-4:00pm BST
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the showers are much more likely to be heavy and thundery, especially through the morning across the southern half of the uk. this hand then extends its way north and eastwards as the day wears on some sunshine following on behind. but further heavy showers developing from the southwest later should be a reasonable day across northern scotland with some spells of sunshine and temperatures on a par with this afternoon, 1a to 18 celsius.
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hello, this is bbc news. the headlines: the former chancellor rishi sunak has received more than 100 backers has received more than 100 hackers and could enter the conservative leadership elections. the leader of the commons, penny mordaunt, is the only person to formally announce that she's running. she has fewer supporters than the two men. in other news, ukrainian officials say around a million and a half households are without power following a new wave of russian attacks. and england's lionesses will face china and denmark at next year's women's world cup in australia and new zealand. now on bbc news.
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talking business with aaron heslehurst. hello, everybody, and a very warm welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. let's go take a look at what's on the show. how much do you make? roughly 60,000. 107k. 35 and some change. yep. how much do you make? for years asking that question, it was taboo. it could have even got you the sack. now, though, around the world, new wage transparency laws are changing all of that and it could change just how much you get paid. so i'm going to be discussing all of that with these three. there they are. hannah williams, whose tiktok video is about pay, have gone viral. the boss of buffer, a company where everyone's pay is public information, and professor peter bamberger, who has literally written the book on pay transparency. also on the show... yeah, avon is still calling the direct selling cosmetics giant is still going strong. and the global boss tells me about reimagining the business for the 21st century.
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wherever you'rejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. you know, vanity fair magazine today best known for interviews and photographs of powerful celebrities, businesspeople and politicians, but around 100 years ago in new york city, the magazine was the scene of a worker revolution. some of the magazine's star writers, such as dorothy parker and robert benchley, they started talking about how much they were paid, something that they weren't allowed to do. when they were reprimanded, they all came in the next day with a painted sign around their necks displaying their pay. today, new york city is still the financial capital of the world. and from november the first, instead of pay transparency being taboo,
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it's going to be the law. from that day, any company with operations in the city, which has more than four employees, will have to disclose an upper and lower salary band for all new posts, promotions and transfers. but benefits like health care, cover and bonuses or stock options, they don't need to be shared. across america, many other states there have been putting similar laws into place. california passed a bill in september, putting even more transparency into law, that comes into effect in january 2023. colorado, connecticut, washington, rhode island, and nevada also have laws in place. most western european countries have some kind of wage transparency measures, as does australia. but iceland 7 yep, it's going even further and now has a law which forces larger companies to prove that they're paying men and women equally. but it's notjust lawmakers that want people to know how much employees are getting paid. videos like this one on social media platforms like tiktok are taking off, especially with a new generation.
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i'm a commercial construction superintendent. how much do you make? right around 80k a year. i am an associate vice president and creative director. _ how much do you make? right now i make 110, _ my salary demands are going to be adjusted soon, so i'm making 125. well, let's get more, because i caught up with the brains behind that social media account. hannah williams, a real pleasure having you on the show. thanks forjoining me. hannah, let's start with this. simply, i mean, what made you go out on the streets and do this? yeah. thank you so much for having me, aaron. basically, ijust had a lot of career experiences, one in particular where i found out i was underpaid about $20,000 because i didn't do market research and i didn't negotiate my salary. and because of pay secrecy, i didn't know any better. and hannah, the reactions, do they change? do they vary from young to older men and women? and hannah, the reactions, do they change? do they vary from young to older men and women? yes.
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oh, my goodness. every time we go out, i call it like a sociology experiment. it's fascinating what we see. there's lots of discrepancies among different demographics with people we approach. so, for instance, we always get more yeses for people who will share that are younger versus older. so lots of millennials, lots of gen z are very willing to share. it's a little bit more difficult when i think you go over 40, that's when it gets a little tricky. but that's just a generational difference, i think. and then we see differences with races. we see more white people are willing to share than any other race. more women are more likely to share than men. there is also a very interesting one that i found, which is that if i approach a group of women, usually one will know us, and she will encourage everyone in her group to share, or one of them will be a fan of pay transparency and will say this is a good thing, we should all do it. ifi this is a good thing, we should all do it. if i approach a group of men, they run in every direction, it is chaos. it's fascinating. d0
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they run in every direction, it is chaos. it's fascinating.- chaos. it's fascinating. do you think peeple _ chaos. it's fascinating. do you think people are _ chaos. it's fascinating. do you think people are honest - chaos. it's fascinating. do you think people are honest with i chaos. it's fascinating. do you - think people are honest with you? i think people are honest with you? i think so. if think people are honest with you? i think so. . ., ., , ., think so. if we have ever had anyone live, it may — think so. if we have ever had anyone live, it may have _ think so. if we have ever had anyone live, it may have been _ think so. if we have ever had anyone live, it may have been before - think so. if we have ever had anyone live, it may have been before we - live, it may have been before we went viral, but now it is, if you come on our show and live, i hope you're ready for everyone in your family and your workplace to know, and you will get called out. how many peeple — and you will get called out. how many people have _ and you will get called out. how many people have viewed the videos so far? we many people have viewed the videos so far? ~ . :: ., , so far? we have 250 million views, over a million _ so far? we have 250 million views, over a million followers _ so far? we have 250 million views, over a million followers on - so far? we have 250 million views, over a million followers on our- over a million followers on our channels, we have a lot of use. channels, we have a lot of views. and hannah, you tell people about your mission. just answer that. why is it so important, do you think? yeah, pay secrecy is everything that holds
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women, minorities, workers with disabilities and the lgbtq community back. there's really only one winner with pay secrecy, and that's the companies themselves. there's absolutely no winner on the employee side, which makes up the largest number of people who are affected. and so reallyjust pay transparency is being open about your pay to allow others to know how much you're making and how much they compare in relation. so you might have two people who work the exact same job at one company and because of pay secrecy, when you apply for a job, the recruiter will ask you or the interviewer will ask you, "what salary are you looking for?" the onus to be paid fairly is put entirely on the candidate at that point, instead of the company which should be ethically and morally responsible for paying their employee fairly, but because they leave it up to the candidate to guess what they should be making and whether that's a fair number, you do have a lot of discrepancies that show up. so someone, for example, when i was underpaid, i thought i was making really great money. i was making $90,000 a year at 23. that's amazing. i would have never guessed
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that i was underpaid at least 20, $25,000. and i was just because i was the one who chose what number i wanted to be paid. and i didn't know what their budget was or what i should be paid. so that's really what it is. 0k. let me end on this, hannah. i mean, because you just told me about your old job. what are you making now? i mean, is it enough to pay the bills? yes. oh, my goodness. i quit myjob in may and i started this page in mid—april. so i quit myjob like two weeks after starting. when i quit, i was a senior data analyst making $115,000 a year. so i was making really great money. i chose to quit because i knew that my goal in life with myjob and with my work was to have purpose and passion and to make an impact, a positive impact. and so when i came up with sts and it took off, i knew that i had found that. so i decided to pursue it. and now we have made as a company over $500,000. but it's difficult for me to say how much i've made because that's
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like the company revenue, you know, and we travel so much. so a lot of our costs go to expenses. and i have been able to pay my bills, yes, and i'm certain i'm making more now than i did before. but i'll have a clear number at the end of the year. oh, i'm going to put a pause on that. i'm looking over at my producer here. ian. ian, we're in the wrong job. that's all i'm saying. we're in the wrong job. he wants me to ask you how much you make. i'm a bloke and i'm over 40, so my answer is "not enough," hannah. nowhere near what you're making. i can tell you that. hannah williams, a real pleasure having you on the show. good luck with everything. you don't need it, but we'll check in with you soon. thanks, aaron. i appreciate it. as new york city prepares for wage transparency laws, one company in colorado, oh, its been leading the way. 0nline marketing company buffer. it's been publishing salaries of all of its staff publicly since 2013. if you want to know what a secretary
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earns, you just go to their website. so i caught up with their ceo, the big boss who is paid just under 300 grand a year. joel gascoigne, a real pleasure having you on my show. and joel, let's start with this. quite simply, why did the company decide to publish everyone's pay? we decided that it would make things a lot simpler and it would build a lot of trust if we were just completely open about the pay, the numbers, but also how we got to the numbers. so we have a salary formula as well, which has been public since 2013 as well. we started internally and then we six months later decided, you know, actually make sense for us to take this step further and make it completely public information. and joel, what kind of a reaction does it have when i don't know, when you have meetings with clients that that they know how much you and everyone at the company gets paid? yeah, we'll say it comes up. it's something that people find very interesting. sometimes people willjust casually mention my salary to me in a meeting
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and it leads to a great conversation about why we do it. and one of the really great things about pay transparency is that actually holds us to a really high standard. we can't, you know, just give someone a bonus or, you know, or have a tonne of salary discrepancy across the company without it sticking out like a sore thumb. and someone mentioning it to us. has it brought up any any jealousy or envy? we've been doing it for so long that it's basically the reality that people have chosen to enter into. so it's not something that i think has brought those kinds of emotions. but i could imagine maybe if, you know, you're large a company and you do it for the first time, you know, people are going to immediately be looking at, 0k, whatam i making compared to other people? and that might lead to those things. well, joel, let me end on this. what advice would you give to to other companies considering to address pay transparency? i would say start small, but reallyjust move forward with it because the benefits of of greater transparency within a company are really significant income in terms of the trust that you build.
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joel gascoigne, the big boss of buffer, really appreciate your time. thanks forjoining me. thanks so much. so pay transparency. it can mean many things and have lots of consequences for, well, how workers and bosses feel about theirjob and their company. professor peter bamberger�*s book pay exposed. it's out next year. he's also a professor at the college school of management and one of the head honchos at the academy of management. professor peter bamberger. a real pleasure having you on my show. and peter, we know you've researched the impact of of pay transparency what do we mean by the term wage transparency? we what do we mean by the term wage transparency?_ transparency? we are talking about three different _ transparency? we are talking about three different things, _ transparency? we are talking about three different things, in _ transparency? we are talking about three different things, in the - transparency? we are talking about three different things, in the case l three different things, in the case of buffer, we are talking about pay
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disclosure transparency, and they do it per person, states in the us are now mandating ranges for certain types ofjobs, but that is just one form of pay transparency. the third form of pay transparency. the third form has to do with page process transparency, where companies provide more information about how their pay system works, why people are making more than others, and how pay decisions are made. we are making more than others, and how pay decisions are made.— pay decisions are made. we talk about bands. — pay decisions are made. we talk about bands, i— pay decisions are made. we talk about bands, ijust _ pay decisions are made. we talk about bands, ijust wonder, - pay decisions are made. we talk about bands, ijust wonder, is i about bands, ijust wonder, is publishing really enough, because thatis publishing really enough, because that is a bit isn't it? like it depends on the outcome we are trying to receive. in most depends on the outcome we are trying to receive. in mos— to receive. in most cases when --eole to receive. in most cases when peeple are _ to receive. in most cases when peeple are trying _ to receive. in most cases when people are trying to _ to receive. in most cases when people are trying to send - to receive. in most cases when people are trying to send their| people are trying to send their bantu —— their bands to regulation
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authorities, here we see some evidence of that working, even though it is just evidence of that working, even though it isjust in evidence of that working, even though it is just in the form of ranges. and peter, we know you've researched the impact of of pay transparency in hundreds of companies. so i'm just wondering what are the positive results? i look at practices similar to what buffer does, what happens when we actually disclose how much individual employees are making. we've done these studies all over the world. one of the interesting effects is that we actually see an improvement in individual task performance. and the reason that happens is that people underestimate how much their efforts are actually going to pay off in the long run. when pay is secret, people typically underestimate how much their bosses are making, not overestimate. they underestimate. when pay is transparent,
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they actually see what it's worth and they actually seem to work harder. butjust on the flip side to that, what are the negative results? i've done research on this in china. others have done this in the united states. what we see is with the production of, again, this form of pay transparency, where we actually disclose pay rates, whether it's ranges or individual payments. what happens is that the the range of pay gets compressed. the amount that better performers are actually getting relative to worst performers goes down. and one of the reasons is that when we put managers under the spotlight, they try to avoid controversy. and the best way to avoid controversy when they're under the spotlight and everybody can see what kinds of bonuses they're giving out to everybody else, they basically give everybody more or less the same. and the result of this can be problematic for organisations, because if you're a top performer and the range of pay is now compressed where you're working, you're going to go where the grass
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is greener to some company that's not necessarily following that same policy. so what companies seem to be doing is that they're shifting the reward structure. benefits now account for anywhere between 20 and 30% of total rewards in most organisations. but what seems to be happening as a result of pay transparency is that managers are putting these rewards where they're out of the spotlight. so we see a movement towards rewarding people in forms that are less open to transparency regulation. i want to talk about the emotions connected to all of this envy, connected to all of this, envy, jealousy, success, failure. i mean, very powerful. i'm just wondering what kind of acting out do you see when workers feel that they're not getting paid as much as colleagues who well, who do the same job? that's a great question. so when managers argue in opposition to pay transparency, the typical argument that they raise is that this is really bad for collaboration. and the reason it's bad for collaboration is that when everyone sees how much others are making or has more information about how much others are making, or simply see that they're low down on the ladder relative to others, they're going to get envious.
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and envy is not a beneficial thing for organisations because it doesn't necessarily promote cooperation. we all kind of get clues as to how others, how much others are making. so even when pay is secret, we get signals how much others are making, right? so when you drive to work in a maserati or something, i don't know if you do or not, but if you drive in in a maserati, you know, you change from your hyundai to a maserati. i'll kind of get the hint that perhaps your bonus was bigger than mine in this pay period. and i could be envious, but i don't know for sure because pay is secret. now let's put it the situation the other way. pay is transparent. i can't deny your bonus being larger than mine. it's certain. and this is what behavioural economists call the certainty effect. and now, without being able to deny it, i actually have my emotions are even stronger, the envy is even stronger. and that's precisely what we find.
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and the consequences of that envy in the workplace can be rather severe. and peter, these new pay laws, you know, they seem to be aimed at evening out the pay of men and women. i'm just wondering, has that been effective? so we have one study from a canadian province where we looked at this. the pay gap actually dropped by 30% between men and women. after the enactment of these regulations, the pay of men stayed relatively stable. the pay of women went up. let me end on this, peter. is the future more or less transparent? well, studies of of of generations younger than you and i are showing that these individuals come to the workplace expecting a higher level, a greater degree of transparency. and where they don't see it, there's less trust. and we actually have evidence of that in some of our research as well. and trust seems to be really a really critical issue.
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so i think there's a general trend towards greater transparency. professor peter bamberger, a real pleasure having you on this show. thanks forjoining me and i'll check in with you soon, 0k. thanks again. bye bye. the global beauty industry is big business, and avon is one of the biggest in the world. globally, they sold directly to customers in over 70 countries, and i've been speaking to the big boss. a real pleasure having you on my show. and angela, let me start with this, because my show�*s focus this week is about wage transparency. and when we look at the avon model, sellers are given a commission on their sales.
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i mean, i'm just wondering how much are they walking away with? can people actually make a living from selling avon or is this more about supplementing income? the beauty of our business model is that we do share our earnings, our value chain, not with some brick and mortar network, but with millions of women around the world. so our representatives will be gaining a commission from 20 to 45%, including other benefits like education, recognition, incentives pending or their affiliation with avon. so could go from simply sharing beauty with their friends. it's more like a beauty fund in a micro community advocating for the products that they love most. to those who choose to make a career a full time income, and those who would serve a large amount of customers both offline and online, and therefore have a meaningful learning out of it. so see, they earn in their own way and they can reach significant earnings depending on the time they allocate to it. so angela, what about when reps recruit other reps? i mean, there's lots of direct selling companies out there that reward their reps
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for recruiting more by giving them a percentage of the new recruit sale. some people will say, is it isn't this a form of pyramid selling? no. a pyramid selling would be when... and this is, by the way, banned by law would be when you promised earnings to people. the majority of those earnings are by recruiting others. in our case, it's a very simple business model. it's a very simple business model. so on one side with a majority of our earnings are coming from the sale of products and nothing else, we don't pay for recruitment as such. we do pay for teams sells and that is very much aligned with what direct selling regulations and would be direct selling industry principles that we follow everywhere around the world. i'm wondering, angela, have you seen a rise in in people wanting to become reps because of this situation? yes.
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initially where people are looking for additional ways to supplement their income, they go back to, 0k, what else i can do either to support my income or to create or to have an activity that gives me that meaningful sense of affiliation to something greater than the everyday activity. we have to admit, it's quite it's quite stressful nowadays and therefore people are looking for an escape, you know, being part of a community where we have these amazing talks about wellbeing and as well creating a rewarding experience for themselves. it's become a very crowded market today, hasn't it? i mean, you've got new entrants coming in from, well, the likes of social media. how does avon battle that? we believe avon it's still very relevant, especially nowadays
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world where there is so much anxiety about the shrinking disposable income, about this globalisation. yet the need for personalised relationships is still there and maybe bigger and more relevant than ever. so we believe we come with a distinct value proposition to our clients and we support the progress of women. everyone who buys a lipstick for avon will know that at least 20% of the value that they pay for that lipstick will directly support the women in their community. and i think that's a claim not many beauty companies then can call and we are very proud of it. angela, is avon still operating in russia? in this moment, russia is ringfenced from the rest of our geographies. we believe that we support women around the world no matter their ethnicity, ethnicity and nationality or religious beliefs. so we follow exactly same principle and we left our russian community
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of women still running their businesses with being covered by the local manufacturing. we refocused the rest of resources to support our ukraine business, where we have restarted operations before any other company. and we support our more than 100,000 representatives through these horrible times with donations to red cross. and now, more recently, we are adding another tranche of support for women that are victims of the violence that we see in ukraine. just briefly, going back to your statement about russia, i mean, does that stack up to avon's values? well, i think it is the avon's value as no matter the situations. imagine for 135 years we've
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been to two world wars, significant disruptions from the catastrophic natural gas events. everywhere around the world, we stayed and followed the compass of supporting women wherever they are. yet we make a statement of being against violence, and being against violence, it means that we are not going through any means support, any entity who would create this unstable environment for people around the world. so with that, we've taken all measures possible to isolate, ring fence russia, and yet support for the women on the ground. well, on that point, angela cretu, the big boss of avon, a real pleasure, angela, having you on the show.
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thanks for your time and i'll talk to you soon. thank you. well, that's it for this week's show. i hope you enjoyed it. don't forget, you can keep up with the latest on our global economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. and of course, you can also follow me on twitter, tweet me, i'll tweet you back. thanks for watching. i'll see you soon. bye bye. hello. it's a very mild weekend across the uk, but with further showers or longer spells of rain all tied in with areas of low pressure, one pushing rain northwards through northern ireland and scotland this afternoon. this second area developing some heavy thundery rain overnight and into tomorrow, and tied in with that we've got south or south easterly winds pushing very mild air across the uk. temperatures this afternoon generally between 1a and 18 celsius. also some showers for wales, south west and southern england. those will push their way north and east through this evening and overnight. clearer skies ahead of it and behind
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it, but with some mist and fog keeping quite a lot of mist and low cloud and patchy rain for the far north of scotland. more heavy, thundery rain developing from the southwest later in the night, but temperatures won't drop much lower than 12 or 13 celsius in places. for tomorrow it's another day of sunshine and showers, but this time the showers are much more likely to be heavy and thundery, particularly through the morning, through wales, central, southern england. that band then pushes its way north and east through the day, weakens slightly, and by the afternoon, it becomes confined to scotland. behind it we'll see some spells of sunshine. we are also likely to see some sunshine developing for northern scotland. but more heavy thundery showers arriving from the south west through the afternoon. temperatures on a par with today, 1a to 18 celsius, just 11 for the northern isles. and the winds not as strong as they have been. but we are likely to see some stronger winds developing along channel coasts and through the channel itself, where we could see gales for a time. and then through the evening on sunday, more heavy thundery
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showers developing through central, southern, south east england, then starting to push into east anglia as well. and its low pressure that stays close by as we move into monday and still some gusty winds for southern coasts as well. and still further showers on monday. for a time the showers will be heavy across eastern areas through the morning. they'll soon pull away and we'll see some sunshine returning. but look, more showers piling in from the west as we head through the day. so by the afternoon, it's more eastern areas which are likely to see the driest and the sunniest weather. temperatures still in that range of 1a to 18 celsius again, 11 celsius for the northern isles. but it's the mild theme that we keep in the week ahead. we could see temperatures perhaps getting up to 20 or 21 celsius across southeast england, but also further showers or longer spells of rain. bye— bye.
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this is bbc news, the headlines at 4pm... the former chancellor rishi sunak has secured more than 100 pledges of support from tory mps, meaning he can enter the conservative leadership contest. rivals of borisjohnson have dismissed claims by his allies that he has also reached 100 backers. the leader of the commons, penny mordaunt, is the only person to formally announce that she's running, but she has fewer supporters than the two men. in other news — two mayors are calling for more funding for train operators in the north of england — it's after passengers face disruption to services you just can't keep up with all of the cancellations, and even when your train isn't cancelled, you are often a really, really packed service. ukrainian officials say around
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