will push their way north and eastwards overnight. some clearer skies ahead of these and behind, but also some mist and fog before more heavy thundery rain arrives from the south—west later in the night. the far north of scotland likely to keep more clouds, some patchy rain here. temperatures generally in the range of ten to m celsius. and then for tomorrow — well, it's another day of sunshine and showers, but this time the showers are much more likely to be heavy and thundery, especially through the morning through parts of wales, central southern england. this hand then pushes its way north and eastwards through the day. some sunshine following on behind. some sunshine too across the north of scotland, should stay mainly dry here for much of the day. but where you've got the sunshine, further showers developing — again heavy and thundery — and more starting to push in from the south—west later in the day. the uk's former chancellor rishi sunak looks set to look at the

leadership race. borisjohnson rivals dismissed claims that he has reached 100 backers, speculation is rife that he could enter the contest. the leader of the commons is the only person to me as she is running but has fewer supporters. ukrainian officials say one million households are without power after a new wave russian attack. judy melania is the nation —— is the first far right leader in italy since the second world war. you are watching bbc news. time for political thinking. the turmoil in the conservative party, the psychodrama, the soap opera with ever more

unlikely plot developments has its roots in brexit. the unresolved question of how this country should reshape itself, having decided the eu, that is one reason my guest on political thinking this week matters. david frost is seen by his admirers as the guardian of the brexiteer flame, the man who borisjohnson put into the house of lords and made his chief brexit negotiator, who is now considering a bid to become a member of parliament. his critics, though, ask one simple question, and i quote one of them, who the hell is an unelected failed minister to tell any of us what to do? well, that is what i hope to discover in this conversation at a moment when anything could change and almost certainly will in the politics. david frost, lord frost, welcome to political thinking. thank you. great to be here, nick. well, let's begin with what is on everybody�*s mind, your old friend, the man you advised, and whether he, borisjohnson, can and should

be our next prime minister. what you make of the speculation? well, burris is a remarkable guy and he can do things that other people can't, so i don't think at all surprising that we are getting this sort of noise about will he come back, could he do thejob. —— boris. i think the party needs to think quite hard before it goes down this road. it is not really for me to say, but there was a reason why he left office and there was a reason he was so successful in office and they have to work out which of those is going to be most important for them. ~ ., ., ,, ~' is going to be most important for them. ~ ., ., ,, ~ .,, them. what do you think was the reason he had _ them. what do you think was the reason he had to _ them. what do you think was the reason he had to leave _ them. what do you think was the reason he had to leave office - them. what do you think was the | reason he had to leave office that matters now? 50. reason he had to leave office that matters now?— reason he had to leave office that matters now? ~ , ., , matters now? so, i think the problem was the sense — matters now? so, i think the problem was the sense of _ matters now? so, i think the problem

was the sense of sort of _ was the sense of sort of confusion and chaos that surrounded him. i think partygate was a special moment, if you like, a very unhappy one, but it was a product of an extraordinary period. i think what people probably want to see is a sense that he can run a government, he can organise things, he has a set of things he wants to deliver, can take decisions, can get things to happen, and i think that was at the root of some of the problems people had. ., . . root of some of the problems people had. ., ., ., ., , ., had. you are asking a question everyone _ had. you are asking a question everyone has _ had. you are asking a question everyone has asked _ had. you are asking a question everyone has asked since - had. you are asking a question| everyone has asked since boris johnson emerged, and bear in mind, i was at university with him, can boris change? the simple answer is no. br; boris change? the simple answer is no. �* , , w boris change? the simple answer is no. �* , , , ., no. by the time they reach his age, basically peeple — no. by the time they reach his age, basically people have _ no. by the time they reach his age, basically people have founded - no. by the time they reach his age, basically people have founded their ideas on the way they work. i agree, you can't expect change, but i think what you could expect and this is going to be one of the issues, you know, can people be self—aware about

their weaknesses, understand what they are naturally good at and where they are naturally good at and where they need help, and get people to do they need help, and get people to do the things that they don't necessarily feel they are good at themselves? and that is what we didn't quite see, i think. that themselves? and that is what we didn't quite see, i think.- didn't quite see, i think. that is the test for _ didn't quite see, i think. that is the test for a _ didn't quite see, i think. that is the test for a boris _ didn't quite see, i think. that is the test for a boris johnson - the test for a boris johnson leadership the test for a borisjohnson leadership but isn't there a more fundamental test? leadership but isn't there a more fundamentaltest? he leadership but isn't there a more fundamental test? he quit his government, adequate his government because of what you describe as the direction of travel, and he after less than a year as a minister, isn't it a is that he's a big government, high spending, high tax, high immigration sort of tory? he is not a brexiteer tory in the sense that you are at all.— that you are at all. there are different _ that you are at all. there are different kinds _ that you are at all. there are different kinds of— that you are at all. there are different kinds of brexiteer l that you are at all. there are - different kinds of brexiteer tories, the one thing they have in common is thinking that brexit is a good thing because it restores national control and democracy and democracy enables you to have these arguments, the conservative party has always been able to church. i think it emits a

mistake to say he is a high spend, high tax person. i don't really think he is a high tax person, he has certainly set things that make clear he isn't. i quit over the what the time looked like the rush back down into lockdown vaccine passports and so on which has all now been forgotten. but i think but you know, it is not so much that he is convinced large government person, it is he likes to avoid difficult choices, that if you could be some difficult choices coming. i choices, that if you could be some difficult choices coming.— difficult choices coming. i think this is the _ difficult choices coming. i think this is the puzzle _ difficult choices coming. i think this is the puzzle i _ difficult choices coming. i think this is the puzzle i hope - difficult choices coming. i think this is the puzzle i hope we - difficult choices coming. i thinki this is the puzzle i hope we will explain here too many people listening, what these arguments and the tory people rush party are all about. let me read you a couple of headlines. i am about. let me read you a couple of headlines. iam backing liz about. let me read you a couple of headlines. i am backing liz truss the pm to lead the talented team that will deliver for britain. that was on the 14th ofjuly, 19th october, liz truss has to go. yes.

0ctober, liz truss has to go. yes. that was only six weeks. october, liz truss has to go. yes. that was only six weeks.— october, liz truss has to go. yes. that was only six weeks. david, what on earth happened? _ that was only six weeks. david, what on earth happened? we _ that was only six weeks. david, what on earth happened? we are - that was only six weeks. david, what on earth happened? we are all- that was only six weeks. david, what| on earth happened? we are all asking that question, i think, honestly, because this is totally unprecedented. i supported because this is totally unprecedented. isupported liz because i believed and believe she had the right diagnosis and the right policies to deal with the problem. unfortunately, she rushed eight and bungled it to a large extent and that was excited by people who opposed her. but even then, i think the real reason why it became unsustainable was that over the last week, she has fixed completely, is now advocating policies that are the complete opposite of those that she won a campaign on, and thatjust won't do. you can't really have that in our system. the legitimacy is fragile enough anyway when it is based on a vote of the ruling party and its

members and not a normal election committee then campaign on something and change it completely, i think thatis and change it completely, i think that is just, whether you agree with the policies or not, itjust doesn't work. the policies or not, it “ust doesn't work. �* ., , . ., the policies or not, it “ust doesn't work. �* .,, . ., ., work. but to be clear, you wanted her to quit — work. but to be clear, you wanted her to quit because _ work. but to be clear, you wanted her to quit because she _ work. but to be clear, you wanted her to quit because she thought . work. but to be clear, you wanted l her to quit because she thought she was damaging the idea is that you believe in and that getting rid of her was the only way a prevailing the of permitting those ideas in the future. —— preserving the implantation of those ideas in the future. , ., , , implantation of those ideas in the future. , ., _ , , future. obviously, i believe in my ideas but the _ future. obviously, i believe in my ideas but the way _ future. obviously, i believe in my ideas but the way the _ future. obviously, i believe in my ideas but the way the polls - future. obviously, i believe in my ideas but the way the polls were l ideas but the way the polls were going, the way that infighting had broken out again and the way we were ending up with, economics that nobody had voted for in the campaign, that isjust nobody had voted for in the campaign, that is just corrosive. nobody had voted for in the campaign, that isjust corrosive. he smiled when i read out that criticism of you, when i read those headlines, one minute back in kerr, the next minute calling for her to

be sacked, one minute praising boris johnson, the next st you are living his government, do you get why some people listening to this will be screaming at the radio or the telephone? so, i mean, the quote you read about me ranks as a generous tribute compared to some of the things that get said about me. and i haven't really got the thick skin of other politicians yet. so this sort of thing does does sort of sting sometimes. but i think, you know, what i would say is i believe i have a consistent set of philosophical beliefs about things which are about, you know, smallish government, freedom, free markets, the nation. and i try to stick to those beliefs. and that's you know, that's not quite what we've seen. and what's interesting about that and this programme is a conversation about what forms people's views,

not just about your contemporary views. what's interesting about that is that while you say you've got a consistent set of beliefs, you grew up in a in a labour household, you were not either a tory yourself as a young man or indeed from a tory background. no, not not at all. i mean, my parents were both were both labour. they both worked for rolls royce in derby as draughts persons, i suppose one would say nowadays, even though the actualjob of drawing on paper has disappeared. but yeah, we we were skilled. skilled, yes, skilled. sort of lower middle class, i suppose you might say, though, it sounds sort of slightly i don't really like the term, but you know what i mean? and we, you know, we we relatively unthinkingly supported labour, though we definitely had doubts, i think, in the eighties. unthinking or was it discussed much politics at the breakfast table or over your tea? no, we discussed it. we discussed it a lot. and, you know, we all had sort of slightly different perspectives on things.

that's for sure. but even at that stage, were you arguing with your mum and dad who you said slightly unthinking in their support for labour? no, ithink, you know, that's probably an unfair word. we you know, we all we all had the same philosophical beliefs about the kind of society we wanted to see at that stage. you fancied neil kinnock being leader of the country. i guess that's that is that is true. and we all change our mind about things when in your case. so was it a moment or was it a process? it was more a process, i think. and, you know, for me, it was during the 90s, i guess, when i was in the foreign office, you know, kind of exposed to the real world. just to remind people, you joined the foreign office straight out of university. didn't you go to brussels? you become private secretary to the head of the diplomatic service. quite a grand job.

it's a sort ofjob that makes it look like you're rising to the top of the foreign office and end up as ambassador to denmark. but during this period, you say? yeah, i think in the 90s i spent a lot of time in brussels and indeed a lot of time after that in brussels. and i think, you know, people who go to brussels usually has two effects on them. most the majority effect seems to be what a wonderful thing. this is a great organisation. let's let's get you know, we need to work with it. but there is a minority view which came to me, which is that i don't like this organisation. i don't agree with what it's doing. i don't think that the rush to a broader, nondemocratic, europe—wide organisation is the right thing to be doing. and that's what the effect that it had on me. but you see, one of your former bosses has told us, i saw no trace

of serious euroscepticism at the time. another said, he decided to be a brexiteer, brexiteer and then created a back story to fit it. they can't see any evidence of your time in the foreign office that you had doubts about europe, so... well, maybe they're just saying i was a professional civil servant then, because yourjob is not to give vent to your own opinions all the time, but to try and do what the government is trying to do. and that's what i tried to do. did that feel limiting? did it feel annoying to go home and sort of have to say to yourself, i don't know whether you could say it to friends or family. i don't agree with this stuff. i mean, it's part of thejob. if you can't do that, then you shouldn't be a civil servant because you've got to live your professional life on somebody else's terms. and in the end, i left because i didn't feel that that was what i wanted to do for my whole life.

did you leave, though, because it didn't work out? you see that phrase, thatjob title, private secretary to the head of the diplomatic service probably means nothing to most people listening. in the business, that means the guy tapped up to rise to the top of this organisation. he's being trained. what went wrong? why didn't you get it? well, i left. i mean, did you leave because you weren't making the progress you wanted or? i got frustrated by not being able to do and say what i what i thought about things. and, you know, i still had a lot of my life in front of me and i didn't want to live it on somebody else's terms the whole time. well, let's turn to brexit then, because you've described how in the 90s you came round to it. i just want you to play a small political thinking game with me. i'm going to read out some statements and see whether you agree

or disagree with this. can any future trading arrangements be as good as the current ones provided by membership? so a statement here. i think it's a sort of trick question coming here. do you recognise this? i'll give you some more. the case for change has to be overwhelming. it isn't. britain will be demander, so it will be britain that has to make the concessions to get the deal. in short, even the best case outcome can't be as good as what we have now. whose words are those? so they're mine. while i was head, i think, the scotch whisky association and the the policy of the scotch whisky association to was to stay in the eu. and i don't think they would have thanked me if i'd made up my own policy on the hoof. i understand that, but it will puzzle people the depth of the arguments for remain that

came out of your lips, as it were, or came from your pen or on your computer. the scotch whisky association is a trading organisation and that's what we were talking about. and ever since i've been in a position to, to say things in public in my current roles when i was brexit negotiator and beyond, i've always said leaving the customs union and the single market has a cost. not every brexiteer has been willing to to say that, but i have always said it. i don't think it's as big as many people say. but the important thing about brexit is not only the trading arrangements, it's the it's democracy, it's running your own affairs, and it's the ability to open your own market competition, to regulate it in a different way, to open it up to the world, and to create the kind of dynamism that drives capitalist economy and that the european union is driving out. so you do have to look at it in the round, i think. and now for people listening who hear some of those phrases, what do you say to someone who says

that everything that david frost wrote turned out to be true, that the economic situation is worse than it was under membership? it was very risky. britain is a demander, as you put it, and therefore has had to make concessions to get deals. everything you said here turned out to be true, didn't it? i don't think it has turned out to be true. to be honest, i think, as i said, there is a trade there's a trade aspect which i know. but forgive me that that's an argument that there are other important things and there is clearly a sovereignty argument and an independence argument. there's quite separate from the economic argument. you may well be a brexiteer for all those reasons and accept an economic price. what i was asking was, weren't you writing everything you predicted about it economically? no, because economics is more than trade. you know, there has been a small hit to our trade with the eu. that's—that's obvious. it's nowhere near as big as people are saying.

but what matters is growth, the size of the economy and the broader economic prospects for the country. and there, if you compare us to the g7 since 2016, the path is pretty much the same. it's not better, though, is it? it's going to take time to do this. and as i've said, you know, i don't think we've been going at this fast enough. so in other words, your key thought is that it's the opportunity to do something different, even if we haven't done it yet. we'll come to that in the context of the current argument about the conservative party in a second. let's turn to your negotiating style. you raised it that people think you were... how would you describe it? what do you think they thought of your negotiating style? we felt that nobody believed a word we said. nobody really understood what we were trying to do. and we had to be as clear as we possibly could about what was acceptable and what wasn't, what we were going to live with and what we weren't. and that, you know, that probably did require, you know, a reset and a bit of correction in the way we go about things.

i wouldn't necessarily advocate it, as you know, you should always do diplomacy like that. of course that's not true. you have to tailor it to the circumstances. i asked you how they regarded you. i mean, some people said they hated your guts. i mean, they they ridiculed you. they said that you weren't a diplomat. they rejoiced when you left office. of course, yeah. is thatjust the price you had to pay to get the job done? this price they had to pay. you know, these are people who wanted us to stay in the eu and boris and i and a few of others ruin their life's work. and everything they'd worked for had turned to ashes, and that was the right thing to do. so i'm not surprised they're unhappy. that's hardly surprising. but you said earlier you're not a politician yet, although you almost are, and you hadn'tjust developed the sort of thick skin that you need in politics. did you find that at a personal level quite hard? i do find it quite hard. i mean, people did not say these

sort of things to my face. and, you know, i felt that my team. and, you know, i felt that my team got on pretty well. you know, we we had, you know, perfectly good sort of correct relations with each other as far as that was possible during the pandemic. but yeah, i, you know, i haven't spent my life being elected and having people shout at me. one of the difficulties, it seems to me, was notjust tonal, was that they thought you'd ripped up a deal that you yourself had recommended, that borisjohnson, with you acting as an adviser, had said this northern ireland deal is a disgrace. he signed it. so, i mean, you have to look at the context. we came in office with a terrible withdrawal agreement, a terrible northern ireland protocol that kept us locked in the customs union and the single market forever.

it couldn't get through parliament. we had to improve it. now parliament passed a law saying that you can't leave without a deal. therefore, we had to find some sort of deal that dealt with the worst we knew. so, as it were, do the deal. know it's no good but it's the way to deliver brexit is the way to get brexit done and then go back to it? it's the way to take and accept an acceptable risk that we thought balanced all the factors and could work and it gave us optionality about the future as regards the free trade agreement, the customs relationships and so on, for the future, which that did. you now use your column in the daily telegraph to argue for policy? most often, yes, you do personality, but you argue passionately for a different direction. explain to someone who's not a conservative or not active in politics, why is the split in the tory party so deep and what is the split really about? i think there's a lot of things

going on and it's not only in the conservative party, obviously i think the whole british political system is going through a bit of a convulsion after brexit. it's not surprising when you get these this sort of huge change and i think it's got some way to play out yet. conservative party has always been a, you know, a coalition of of different views of social conservatives, of, you know, nationalists, if you like the word or free marketeers of people who have a range of views. but we're talking of people, unlike in, say, the thatcher period, where there were deep divides inside the conservative party in the cabinet. you did not get what you get now, which is people saying, i will quit my membership of the conservative party if so—and—so becomes leader, i will do everything to bring this person down. you do get it.

you, for many people, are the symbol, if you like, of that kind of right wing orthodoxy. so i'm trying to get a sense of you what's at stake? why are the stakes so big? the tory party is a brexit party now. i think that's that's clear. there are very few who disagree with that in the party now. but i think you've got to you've got two wings, you've got, you know, if you like, a sort of free market liberal wing to the party that is in inverted commas, globalist, if you like, looks out of britain, you know, is not so invested in things like immigration. and then you've got another wing, which puts emphasis on, you know, strength of the state law and order, migration, borders, defence spending and pushing back. i hate the word, but pushing back against sort of woke opinions to use shorthand. and those i think can co—exist within a party.

but if one or the other becomes too strong, as has happened in the past, is happening now, you get this rubbing up against each other in a very robust way. you're a commentator now and quite an influential one within the conservative party. and people listening to you will hear a kind of thoughtful man, quite philosophical man, a man who stresses that he's a bit uncomfortable with some of the abuse that comes along with modern politics. and yet you say things like, i don't like the word globalist, but you use the word globalist. i don't like the word woke, but you use the word woke. and your columns are used by people who are much angrier than you sound. do you think you behave responsibly as a columnist? yes, i do. i think, you know, i use the words globalism and work in woke in this interview because the people understand what i'm talking about. but, you know, there are people now

who think liz truss was brought down by quotes and i do quote and these are words you'll hear on abc news ——by quotes and i do quote and these are words you'll hear on gb news all the time by a conspiracy of deep state anti—brexit globalists. indeed. and i think in my column this week i explicitly said that is not true. conspiracy theories are wrong. i don't believe that. wouldn't it be better not to use conspiracy theorist language then? well, to refute it, i think you have to use it. and that's that's explicitly what i was doing. and you don't want to be a columnist any more. you're thinking of becoming a member of parliament. why? many would argue you're more influential in your current job than you would be as a tory backbencher? well, it is not unknown for people to hold both roles, i would say, but that's that's looking to the future. i think if you want to do serious politics, in the end you have to be in the commons. and i people say to me,

who elected you? i mean, everyone's got the right to say what they think. but nevertheless, it is a reasonable criticism in the sense that ultimately legitimacy comes from the elected house. and i think the lords has got bit above itself in recent years, if i'm honest and i've said that. have you got a seat in mind? no, we're not at that. at that point, i think there are some associations who will be interested and you'll be a candidate in the next election. you will be a candidate? i'm fairly confident i could be if i wanted to. the question is, is it kind of really what i like doing and want to do? and you think your role in public life, you think you've made the country better?

i don't think brexit would have happened if boris and i and dominic cummings and a few others had not been in that place at the right time, is now in others hands to make the country better. what we have created is the ability to choose, the ability of proper debate, the ability to make things happen again. and that, i believe, is a good thing for a country. david frost, lord frost, thanks forjoining me on political thinking. thank you. david frost embodies the problem, the trauma, if you like, that the conservative party now faces. 0n the one hand, he has a clear, quietly argued, philosophical case for the sort of country he wants to develop after the brexit, which he helped to deliver. 0n the other, he's a man who joined borisjohnson's government, then quit it, called for liz truss to be prime minister and then called just weeks later for her to quit. and who sounds like he doesn't think there's anybody who's really right to be her successor and our

next prime minister. ideas they have, people they can unite behind, they don't. thanks for watching. hello. it stays mild through the second half of the weekend and into next week as well. we've got further rain in the forecast and it is latch likely to be thundery. forecast and it is latch likely to be thundery-— forecast and it is latch likely to be thunde . , ., , ., ., be thundery. the showers we have had this afternoon — be thundery. the showers we have had this afternoon will _ be thundery. the showers we have had this afternoon will push _ be thundery. the showers we have had this afternoon will push their _ be thundery. the showers we have had this afternoon will push their way - this afternoon will push their way north and we were —— eastwards overnight. some mist and fog before more heavy thundery rain arise from the south—west later in the night. the far north of scotland, cloudy and patchy rain, temperatures in a range of ten to 1a celsius. tomorrow, another day of sunshine and showers but this time the

showers are much more likely to be heavy and thundery, especially through the morning, three parts of wales, central and southern england, this band pushing north and east was through the day, some sunshine following on behind, some sunshine as well through the north of scotland, many dried through much of the day, further showers, heavy and thundery, and more pushing in from the south—west later in the day.

hello and welcome to bbc news. i martine croxall. the possibility of rishi sunak and borisjohnson meeting each other on saturday is being talked about, as the race to become the new conservative leader and the uk prime minister gathers pace. the bbc understands they were due to meet face to face at 3.30 uk time, but that was delayed — although my colleague laura kuenssberg says the meeting may still go ahead later. mr sunak is the first leadership contender to secure the public support of 100 tory mps — that's the number needed to enter the race. i was just i wasjust reading i was just reading from another correspondent that it's been under way. we need to get that confirmed.