this is bbc news. we will have the headlines— this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and _ this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all— this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the - this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the mainl the headlines and all the main news — the headlines and all the main news for— the headlines and all the main news for you _ the headlines and all the main news for you after— the headlines and all the main news for you after hardtalk. i welcome to this special edition of hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi from the taiwanese capital, taipei. people here in taiwan, which is self—governed, live under a constant threat from china, which lies about 160km across the waters. beijing claims taiwan as part of its territory and in the past few months has carried out hundreds of military sorties near taiwan, leading to speculation that it is preparing for an invasion. taiwan has also been subjected to cyber attacks from china.

my guest is the taiwanese digital minister, audrey tang. can taiwan really forge its own path? minister audrey tang in taipei, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. really happy to be here. president xi of china reiterated at the recent chinese communist party congress that china wants to strive for the prospect of peaceful unification with taiwan, but that he will never promise to give up the option to use force. just sum up briefly the mood for us, the reaction to that possibly new threat. well, there's a familiar message. we've been hearing that for quite some time. of course, we have to prepare ourselves to face the authoritarian expansionism, but that has been the case

for as long as i can remember. so people have not been at all worried by this renewed threat? not especially worried. of course, we've been seeing renewed interest in, for example, countering disinformation, cybersecurity attacks and so on. but i think the overall mood is quite calm. ok, because china has claimed taiwan as part of its territory since 1949. but now, according to intelligence in the united states, president xi wants to accelerate the programme and unify taiwan by 2027. so you've got this timeframe. we've seen increased military activity, spy planes, bombers, missiles being fired over the taiwan strait. surely you cannot discount the possibility that there could be a military conflict. mm—hm. well, in taiwan, we face earthquakes or typhoons all the time. earthquakes doesn't give us

a lot of advance notice either. so our role is to be resilient, meaning that we prepare for adversity and recoverfrom it. our readiness, i think, stands high at any given time. you sound quite relaxed about it, if i may say, minister tang. mm—hm. because the foreign minister of taiwan, joseph wu, says china's behaviour is provocative and threatening regional peace and stability. i mean, taiwan is the reddest of red lines for china, isn't it? well, we are on the front line, and because i'm the digital minister, i wouldn't think in the case of event of attack, because we literally face cyber attacks every day. all right, as you say, quite rightly, you face cyber attacks, millions every day... millions every day. ..from china, i put it to you that kitsch yen—fan from the global china hub at the atlantic council says, "we are already at war. this is a constant thing." i mean, is he right? is taiwan effectively engaged in a cyber war with china? mm—hm. it's quite continuous.

for example, when the us speaker, nancy pelosi, visited, we've seen one single time, the peak 23 times higher than the previous peak of the distributed denial of service attack, trying to shut down the websites of the ministry of national defence or the president's office and so on. although they didn't succeed in revealing any sensitive information or exposing the confidential documents, and so the height of the attack is quite visible to everyone. so because of that, there is a renewed interest in strengthening our cybersecurity. you've broken many glass ceilings. you're a hacker turned minister. mm—hm. you were a child prodigy. you established your own technology company at the age of 15. you were involved in the sunflower student protests in 2014 to try to avoid the fast tracking of a trade bill with china. you are the first openly transgender minister anywhere in the world. mm—hm. so, you know, a first there.

but given that your own department is the ministry for digital affairs, you need to strengthen taiwan's digital protection. so how capable is your infrastructure of withstanding these cyberattacks from china? i would say that we build resilience in order to counter notjust the hard cybersecurity attacks, but also the disinformation, the propaganda, the foreign interference to our elections, and so on so these two go hand in hand. on the counter disinformation part we rely on, well, journalism, but also our citizens practising journalism. fact checking, for example, is a popular pastime for taiwanese students to do their exercise and so on. so once we are armed with so—called antibodies of the mind, we're less vulnerable to the disinformation attacks. now, in times of cybersecurity attacks, it's been pointed out

that the submarine cables is one of the vulnerabilities in taiwan, because these are the places that connects us to the world. so learning from ukraine, we're now investing around, i think, 15 million usd over the next couple years to build more than 700 mobile or fixed satellite receivers for the non—geostationary satellites in orbit, so that we can still keep a line open to talk to our democratic allies around the world, even in the event of the severe disruption to our submarine cables. so the idea, part of a digital strategy is to keep information about taiwan flowing. mm—hm. as part of that ambition, you have proposed a satellite trial programme to try to guarantee internet services across taiwan. but given the current tensions with china, these talks are pretty urgent, aren't they, between private sector companies and the taiwanese government? mm—hm. yeah, we're quite happy of our existing collaboration

with vendors currently in middle earth orbit. and we will, of course, expand that to new vendors to the low earth orbit. but i think taken together, this provides a heterogenous, that is to say composed of various different solutions and vendors, a pallet for us to continue the conversation, because if you do not have real time video feed in a time of event of disaster, the appetite for information is still there. and so this information would take the place of real journalistic reports if we do not provide journalism with high speed bandwidth of internet. one thing that taiwan is hugely significant for in the global economy is the fact that you provide about 90% of the worlds advanced microchips. yes. and these are of course, critical in all sorts of ways, microchips we use in our phones, in cars, in laptops and so on. and one taiwanese company, tsmc, in fact, accounts for half of the global market.

how does this affect your relationship with china? because china is one of your big partners... mm—hm. ..economically, trading, and yet it's this foe that we've been discussing. and there's talk about a silicon shield, that this kind of supply of microchips can protect you from an attack by china. yet, on the other hand, it could also prove a very attractive, valuable acquisition for china. so, how do you see it? yeah, i think the silicon shield, so—called silicon shield, is a symbol of the trust that the entire world places on the made in taiwan chips, because as you mentioned, the chip power everything from the military to science and so on. the trustworthiness of the manufacturing of those chips, the cybersecurity, for example, the e—187 cybersecurity standard were built from taiwan to ensure the trustworthiness

of those chips in its computation. that is very important. so we see that as truly an asset, that made in taiwan, m—i—t, the "t" also stands for trustworthiness. and so i think this idea that things made from taiwan can power the science and military and whatever other applications around the world is a symbol of trust. and that is the true shield that unites taiwan, as well as our democratic allies. a symbol of trust, but does it protect you from chinese aggression? i think if the world comes to see taiwan as an essential partner in providing trustworthy computation, then the entire democratic camp will see us as a very valuable partner and so will come to our defence. i mean, another paradox which is quite positive about taiwan is, you are part of the government which came to power in 2016 when president tsai ing wen, who leads the democratic progressive party, the dpp, won the elections very decisively.

what is the position of the government when it comes to independence? because polls consistently show that the taiwanese people don't want independence, and yet they don't want unification with china. so how does the government reconcile this? mm—hm. i think all the major parties, including the dpp, the democratic progressive party you mentioned, in the parliament, reject authoritarian expansionism. when we look at hong kong, the so called one country two system has turned into so called only patriots can rule hong kong. so i think we all reject that. and our way of life, of course, is a free and democratic one. so in the digital realm, we're happy, for example, that's our domain name, .tw, it's quite independent from .uk, .us and .cn, obviously, so i think people

care more about state as a full fledged member, a partner to the democratic community more than anything else. but you are part of a government, i appreciate you are nonpartisan and not a member of the dpp, but president tsai ing wen�*s comments are quite puzzling. for example, in 2020, she told the bbc that, "we don't have a need to declare independence. "we are an independent country already "and call ourselves the republic of china." what does she mean by that? well, the roc government officially relocated to taiwan in the 19405. and ever since then, we say roc taiwan, with or without the parenthesis, to symbolise that when we talk about the roc now, it means that the people in this free country elects the president directly since 1996 and so on. and so they have become like

synonyms, the roc and taiwan. you're talking about when king chiang kai—shek left china, having been defeated by the communists in 1949 and fled to taiwan with 2 million of his followers, and we had the republic of china there. but it's still not clear, the government or the president not backing formal independence, really, and yet saying we reject unification. you use words like "country", but actually only about a dozen very small states in the caribbean or latin america... or the vatican city. ..and the vatican recognise taiwan as a nation. i mean, you're losing that argument. but on the digital realm, when we signed the declaration for the future of the internet, which i signed on behalf of taiwan, we're one of the 61 partners, full democracies, signing that declaration together to place our investments jointly to build, to shape the internet into

something that's resilience against authoritarianism and to protect human rights. and in the declaration, we're all referred to as partners or as democracies and so on. so on that front, we're gaining new ground. but can you say you are a country when, as ijust said, major countries, the united states, all of the european union don't recognise taiwan as a nation state? you don't have a seat at the united nations. yeah, but we do have a top level internet domain. so my point here is... so you exist as a country only in the digital space. is that what you're saying? what i'm saying is that nowadays there is more multi—stakeholder or hybrid, multilateral and multi—stakeholder, meaning composed of countries, but also eu or the vatican city and many other entities that comprise the democratic partnership, which is why in my ministry, the ministry of digital affairs, our department is called the department of democracy network, not international cooperation.

eric chu, the leader of the opposition kuomintang or kmt party, criticises the dpp, the president, for not maintaining a dialogue with china. i mean, even the americans, the us secretary of state, antony blinken, and the chinese foreign minister, wang yi, held talks on the sidelines of the un general assembly in september. they talked for an hour and a half. why is president tsai here not accepting to talk directly with the chinese? well, i think in her national address, president tsai ing—wen said very clearly that as long as there is equitable terms for dialogue, she's happy to have a conversation to keep the taiwan strait peaceful and so on. but i mean, she says she will only talk if beijing drops that precondition that taiwan is part of china. and so you've got a deadlock. they're not going to do that. president xi has just reiterated unification must happen, and so you have no dialogue. maybe a video conference then.

but, i mean, not even that's taken place. i mean, are you encouraging her to do that? my point here is that if there are ways for the beijing authorities and taiwan government to have a more matter of factly conversation around the day to day conversations matters when it concerns to people's livelihoods and so on, that has been going on for quite a while. what you're asking is essentially the political question, but from my point of view, because i'm nonpartisan, i think it's far easier if we focus on the parts, for example, advancing democracy, human rights and so on. we work as the ministry of digital affairs through the department of democracy network, not just with government entities of fellow democracies, but also people who are advocating for democracy and independentjournalists

and so on, even if they live in authoritarian regimes. and so on these topics, we're happy to have conversations. all right, but it's notjust the political question where there is a lack of clarity. even taiwan's defence strategy is lacking. taiwan's former top military official, staff admiral lee hsi—ming, who retired three years ago, says the taiwanese army is not prepared and that it must think strategically, which he says it isn't doing. his criticisms highlight the inertia in the taiwanese army because it was the armed wing of the kmt, the chinese nationalist party, that ruled under martial law for decades. and so therefore, it's not reinvented itself sufficiently for the modern era. so what do you say to that criticism? mm—hm. i believe you're mentioning the asymmetric defence concept. yes. i think in the cyber security domain, this is obviously the case. we need to create places

where we spent as minimal resources as possible in order to counter the far more resources that the adversaries throws at us. so when i talk about, for example, mitigating the denial of service attacks following nancy pelosi's visit this august, we developed a way to tie our defence, the web two and web three defences to the international backbones that powers the nfts, the cryptocurrencies and so on. so if you take this down, then you also must take down the entire... but i'm talking about military hardware, really. that's what the admiral�*s criticisms were. yeah. i mean, president tsai hasjust announced a 40% boost in taiwan's defence spending. you face an army, a standing army of about 2 million in total. i think you've got something like 170,000. mm—hm. you've cut your army personnel by more than half since the 19905. it's that kind of defence strategy that the admiral

is referring to. and so that's all pretty unwise, isn't it, that kind of approach? we've seen recently that under the call of the all out mobilisation, people having an interest of getting the training they need in orderto, well, again, learning from ukraine to contribute in the time of a invasion. and in the domain of cybersecurity, which i'm more familiar with. we've also got people, from students to the people already working to learn not just basic cyber, like, sanitation, good habits, but also ways to, again, learning from the so—called it army from ukraine, to work with the international people... sure. ..when times comes for a kind of all out defence. so i think this is not just about the ministry of national defence, but also about equipping our citizens. so, for example, the taiwanese tycoon robert tsao has pledged

33 million usd to help train civilian fighters, as you're referring to there. but he's doing the job of government there, isn't he? he's trying to fill in the holes to make up for the lack of a proper defence strategy that the government should be addressing. i think that these two work in tandem. i have a heart condition that prevents me from actually enrolling in the compulsory two year military service at the time. but it doesn't mean that i don't want to know about our defence strategy and get training in cybersecurity and other matters when time comes. so i think the connection between people who are willing to contribute and national defence, that is the bridge that we're building. all right. when it comes to defence, it seems like taiwan is going to be relying a great deal on the united states. the us senate has passed a bill to provide $6.5 billion to fund weapons and other military support for taiwan. a strong bipartisan strategy for the americans there. and president biden, it seems,

has been abandoning american policy, which has been called strategic ambiguity for many years, not spelling out what would happen, from america's point of view, if china did invade taiwan. but now he's saying that the us would get involved militarily if china invaded taiwan. he says, "yes, that's the commitment we made." and when pressed in an interview on american tv, whether that meant that american men and women would defend taiwan, he answered, "yes." so what's your interpretation now of us policy towards taiwan? it is obviously to deter expansionism by authoritarian regimes by making it clear, as i mentioned, that the cost will be insurmountable if they even consider... do you see a shift in policy? do you see an abandonment of that strategic ambiguity in favour of a more robust approach? it's been called strategic clarity, right? spelling it out, as you just mentioned.

yeah. so you do. but do you think that's reassuring for the taiwanese? or arguably, it could put you right in the middle of the growing tensions between china and the united states. you could end up becoming a pawn in this superpower rivalry. mm—hm. yeah, a couple of things. i think, first of all, clarity doesn't mean escalation. so it's not like we're escalating the tension here. that's the first thing. and the second thing is that, as i mentioned, there's a lot of willingness from not just the us but also european counterparts and many other democratic allies. all the 60 signatories of the declaration for the future of the internet is committed to keep it free and open. can wejust... sticking with the tensions, you're not escalating the tensions, but the tensions between china and the united states are escalating. joe biden has got the export controls now on chinese technology and so on. and my point is, how is taiwan viewing this?

because i'll give you a quote, michael swain from the quincy institute for responsible statecraft says biden�*s statements make taiwan less secure because they increase the chance of the us being pulled into a war. makes you less secure. he's right. the point i'm making is that, for example, the uk also realised that previously consider inexpensive 5g communication equipment from authoritarian regimes are actually expensive. if you think about the risk it poses to national security. so it's not like only the us does that assessment. everybody else is doing the same assessment and concludes that taiwan is the more trustworthy partner when it comes to powering the secure telecommunication or any scientific military computation needs. is the better democratic partner and they're willing to commit... yeah, exactly. ..military support. right. and that's something that's good in your opinion. right. so this is not a us—prc thing. this is the free democratic alliance thing. all right.

finally, as minister for digital affairs, audrey tang, you're trying to transform taiwan into a digital democracy. around 87% of people under the age of 12 are connected. and you want to increase citizen participation online. yes. how do you think you're going to be able to develop this? i mean, could you go the way of china that uses surveillance to increase its authoritarianism? america, where we've seen the internet being used in a way that polarises society more. how are you going to avoid falling into either trap? yeah. so our point is that democracy can deliver if it becomes more democratic, so that everybody can participate. you mentioned chiang kai—shek relocation of the roc government to taiwan in the �*40s. at the time, there's very, like, people with very different life experiences suddenly having to coexist together. my own grandma is a local taiwanese who studied japanese and my grandpa comes from china.

so in my family, i understand the need to collaborate across diversity. today, taiwan is home to, like, 20 national languages and many different ethnic people. so the point i'm making is that democracy must build collaboration across diversity, and that's the way we're employing digital technologies to do. audrey tang, ministerfor digital affairs here in taiwan, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you. live long and prosper. hello there.

we certainly have seen some lively weather over the past 2a hours, multiple bands of heavy rain, some thunderstorms for a while. things are beginning to quieten down by monday morning, but over the week ahead, we are going to stay in this very mild air, and that brings the potential for more rain, which could be heavy and thundery at times. now, we've got the overnight rain to clear away from eastern parts of england out into the north sea. we've still got some rain in the far north of scotland, but otherwise the west to south—westerly breeze will bring sunshine and a scattering of showers on monday. those will get blown into some eastern areas but there will be some sunshine between. we are still making a mild 15 degrees in scotland and 17, maybe 18 across eastern parts of england. now, this is the general weather pattern, really, over the rest of the week. this is the jet stream, the upper level winds, you can see how that is buckled to the west of the uk, not really changing very much. within that buckle, you find areas of low pressure spinning around and bringing us most of the rain. but because of the orientation of the jet stream, we are on the warm side of it so we have got winds coming

from a long way south bringing us those higher temperatures. as we head into tuesday, we started generally dry with some sunshine, there will be a few showers around first thing, one or two continuing in the west, and then as the southerly wind picks up, the cloud will thicken in the south—west and we will start to see some rain coming in here. a lot of places, though, will have a dry day, probably, on tuesday. it is still pretty mild, temperatures still reaching 17 or 18 degrees. still got low pressure sitting to the west of the uk, then, and around it, this weather front is focusing all the rain, that rain could turn heavy and thundery as it runs northwards overnight, sitting across more northern parts of the uk early on wednesday and then moving away. still got those brisk southerly winds, those will bring a mixture of sunshine and showers, and again, most of the showers will be towards the western parts of the uk. those temperatures beginning to rise a bit in that sunshine there across many eastern areas. we continue to run those winds from a long way south, more areas of low pressure pushing more rain in, mainly across the western side of the uk. there will be a few showers

around on thursday, some of them could be heavy and thundery, but more in the way of sunshine coming out across eastern parts of the uk. still with those southerly winds so temperatures still continuing to rise, could make 21 in the south—east of england. and those temperatures are about four or 5 degrees above the average.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko oi. the headlines: three become two, borisjohnson drops out of the race to be tory leader and prime minister, leaving rishi sunak and penny mordaunt in the running. the former chancellor is now the clear frontrunner. we'll be asking what's now more likely, a contest or a coronation? cementing his place at the top, china's president xi will have a third term in power, the first to do so since chairman mao. and, one of brazil's most prominent indigenous leaders warns there'll be further damage to the amazon rainforest, if president bolsonaro is re—elected.