the headlines will follow at the top of the hour after this feature programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur and today i'm in skopje, north macedonia, a land subject to countless wars and conquests going back to the time of alexander the great. this young nation was, of course, a part of the former yugoslavia. now it's desperate to get into the european union, but progress is painfully slow.

my guest today is prime minister dimitar kovacevski. now he knows that europe's attention right now is fully focused on the war in ukraine. but how real is the potential for new instability here in the balkans? prime minister dimitar kovacevski, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for coming to north macedonia, to skopje, and to the government. it is a great pleasure to be in skopje. but mr prime minister, it strikes me you have a problem. you in north macedonia definitely want to be in the european union. it is still not clear whether the european union truly wants you. do you find that

very frustrating? well, i can answer this question very straightforward that the european union needs north macedonia and it needs all the western balkans to be part of the european union. if you have asked me this question a year ago, then my answer would have maybe been more neutral. but now, after the new geostrategic situation which we have in europe, and after the invasion of russia on ukraine, and after all the security, energy and economic issues which are at stake in europe, it is clear and it has been confirmed by all the leaders of the european union, starting from president macron, chancellor scholz, the president of the european commission, madame von der leyen, that european union is not complete without the western balkans, without north macedonia, without albania, montenegro

and all the other countries. and this is the reality. yes, but you've been in the queue since 2005. that's when you got your candidate status for the european union. and here we sit in october 2022, and many of your own people are still deeply sceptical about whether, ever, you will be a full member of this club. so our people are fully right that during the 17 years of waiting to start the negotiations with the european union, the public opinion has been frustrated. and if i may say so, they've seen you make so many efforts to jump through every hoop that brussels has required of you, even changing the name of your country because greece insisted that you must do so, so macedonia became north macedonia. so this is exactly

what i wanted to answer in the continuation of my start of the answer to your question. north macedonia has done probably the toughest and hardest decision compared to any other country which hasjoined or willjoin the european union. so let's not forget that during those 17 years, we could not progress on our path to the european union because of regional and bilateral issues on the balkans. there are many, i call them identity issues. so if we see bosnia and herzegovina, if we see kosovo, if we see the whole region, what has happened through the past 30 years after the dissolution of yugoslavia, even if we see today ukraine what is happening, this is also an identity issue which is happening there. north macedonia has proven that through diplomacy there can be sustainable solutions

for identity issues. we have made these tough decisions. so you are right, we have changed the name of the country in order to become members of nato and in order to progress to the european union integration. also, we have done agreement with our neighbours bulgaria, which decision was also a very hard decision. and if i may say so, prime minister, we are going to discuss that in some detail, because your relationship with bulgaria is crucial to what happens next. but before we get there, you talk about regional issues, you talk about identity. i just wonder whether you worry that because europe right now is so preoccupied with the war in ukraine, and ukraine, of course, has now been given candidate status for the european union, whether you worry that little north macedonia is going to still be left on the sidelines because the eu now has ukraine front and centre of its attention. i cannot agree with this,

because we started the negotiations with the european union onjuly 19th. two days before that, we made decision in the parliament to accept the european proposal, which was prepared during the french presidency, and that is why many people call it the french proposal. and this proposal came onjune 30th this year. so this is the time of the war in ukraine. and that's why i'm saying that the new geostrategic situation in europe actually put it in the spotlight, the western balkans, because europe without the western balkans is not complete. and we have proven, especially north macedonia, by aligning ourforeign policy 100% with the european union, that we belong in the european union. making these decisions and starting the negotiations onjuly 19th is proving that european union is a reliable partner with whom we started

the negotiations and where we will progress in our negotiations. i'm interested in north macedonia's stance on ukraine, because you have neighbours, for example serbia, which have a traditionally warm relationship with moscow, other neighbors like bulgaria and greece, which are heavily reliant on russian energy and for one reason or another appear to be perhaps dragging their feet to a certain extent on some of the sanctions against moscow, but you here in north macedonia have been strong in your condemnation of putin, strong in your determination to assist ukraine with weapons. why do you see it as so much in your interest to be so strong in support of kyiv? the answer is exactly

in your question. ukraine is attacked by a larger country. ukrainian democracy and the right of the ukrainian people to decide on their future, on their constitution, on their way of life has been attacked by a bigger country. we are not the biggest country on the balkans, but on the contrary. and that is why we have always protected the values of free democracy and on the free choice of people to govern and to strategically orient their country. but russia traditionally has a strong diplomatic presence in the balkans, it has leverage in the balkans. are you sure you want to make an enemy of moscow, for example, by sending t—72 tanks to ukraine? so all the decisions which we have made have been made with the decisions of the government, and they have been publicly stated.

we are members of nato and we have fully aligned our foreign policy with the european union. even today, if you see balkans, this is not the balkans of 30 years ago. slovenia, croatia, montenegro, north macedonia, albania, bulgaria, greece are members of nato. slovenia, croatia, bulgaria, greece are members of the european union. north macedonia, albania, montenegro, serbia are negotiating with the european union. so it is not the same balkan as 30 years ago. just getting back to the point of russia being a dangerous enemy, i think your own president accused russia in the summer, when there were street protests in skopje and other cities in north macedonia over government policies, including the deal on the eu, the president accused russia of influencing elements

inside this country to protest and attack the government. do you think russia is meddling here? first, i didn't answer to one part of your question, and this is about the energy dependence of the balkans. in europe, there are countries which are fully dependent on russian gas. there are countries which are less dependent and there are countries which are not dependent, like the ones which are to the far west — portugal, spain and so on. we are in the group of countries which are fully dependent on russian gas, and this has been historically because of the state of economy, relations from the past and so on. and during this crisis, it's always a possibility for, an opportunity for changes and for improvement. so that is why we have started a lot of infrastructural projects in order to disperse and to diversify our energy supply, especially in terms of gas supply, by building new interconnectors

and pipelines going from south to the north, and not like now only from east. right, but the bottom line is you face an energy crisis this winter. your electricity production is down. all europe faces energy crisis. absolutely, so i come back to this question — russia is a dangerous enemy. and i'm going to ask you again directly, right now, do you think russia is meddling in north macedonian politics as your own president has accused them? so third countries here, including russia, has always had the interests of having frozen conflicts on the balkans. and this has always been. if we see it from time perspective, there are countries where the ties are, and the public opinion is, more strong towards russia, on the balkans. and there are countries where this opinion and this influence is less significant.

in north macedonia, the infrastructure of this influence, and when i mean on infrastructure, then i mean on political parties... some of the opposition parties? some of the opposition parties. what, you're accusing them of being influenced, effected by russia ? not that they are influenced, they are going on meetings in russia. so they have a political program which is aligned with their russian political partners. also, we have media which have been influenced by third parties, among which probably there is a russian influence. so there is a certain infrastructure which has been put in place during our accession to nato. this infrastructure has been even made stronger during the covid pandemics and the inability of european union to deliver through the covax mechanism immediately on the vaccines

when the pandemic started. so later on, they delivered big quantities of vaccines from the european union covax mechanism. but at the beginning this was not the case, so this hysteria was again spread by this media and political and analytical infrastructure. and then it was even stronger during our start of negotiations with the european union, and all the citizens could see about all the protests which were happening on the streets of skopje, the molotov cocktails which were used to attack the building of the ministry of foreign affairs, even this building was... so there is a degree of instability in this country, so let's get to... i would not say that there is instability, because by being member of nato, we are members of the biggest defence alliance in the world. this has given us the strength to have all the prerequisites in order to have the tools

to strengthen the security in the country to the highest level. but let's get to the deep political faultline that runs through macedonia today. that is the decision you took to accept this so—called french proposal, which we've already referred to, which in essence gives a green light to candidate talks beginning with the eu, based on a deal you have done with bulgaria, which for years had been blocking the eu process, has agreed to green—light that process, but only on the basis that you make major concessions. you have to change your constitution to specifically protect the rights of bulgarians inside north macedonia. you also have to agree to a historical commission, which is going to possibly rewrite north macedonia's version of history. many of your people think you have sold out to bulgaria.

first, thank you for this question. and i will start from from the very beginning. when i became prime minister of the country, the relations with bulgaria have deteriorated to the lowest possible level. we started with the new bulgarian government, now former government, wide communication on many issues. you've been to sofia. you made a point of reaching out to kiril petkov, the former prime minister. and the two of you were seen as reformers, people who wanted to change the dynamic between your two countries. absolutely. but the problem is many of your own people don't want to make that journey with you. if you want to be a leader, then you have to make tough decisions. we, in these negotiations, had several goals in front of us and we achieved them.

number one, clear macedonian language in the european union. number two, clear macedonian identity of the macedonians in the european union. and start of the negotiations with the european union, which happened on july 19th. and historical questions to be out of the negotiation framework. you mentioned the work of the historical commission. the historical commission works with 14 members — seven from the bulgarian side, seven from the macedonian side — which can make decisions only with a full consensus and which can only be implemented on a reciprocal basis in the two countries. so this is actually the agreement where they, historians, will deal with the historic questions. just a few metres from here in the parliament, you have

to push through by a two—thirds majority a constitutional amendment which will specifically protect the rights of bulgarians in north macedonia. i put it to you, mr prime minister, you simply don't have the votes. and if you cannot get that legislation through, then this process ofjoining the european union is going to go nowhere. this process ofjoining the european union has been stuck for 11 years of the previous government, because they were not ready to move one millimetre. you want to move but you don't have the votes. and they didn't made any decision. we have two concepts in this country. 0ne concept is the one which i am leading. and this is that macedonians, and all the other citizens of north macedonia, with heads up, with dignity, to sit on the big table in brussels

and to give their standpoint on all the issues to negotiate and to become members of the european union. the other concept is, with false dignity, to sit down at the small table here in north macedonia, alone, isolated, in conflict with all the neighbours, without talks with the european union. this sitting on the small table with false dignity we have seen for 11 years. i understand, butjust tell me how you're going to get this legislation through parliament. it is the responsibility of all the political parties to make decisions which will make a better future for the future generations, because, at the end of the day, i know that this process will be hard and this process of negotiations will be tough. and i am aware of this, and all our citizens are aware of this. just a final thought... but at the end of the day,

the big prize, the big prize is membership in the european union. because the macedonian citizens want to be part of the european union, but they want to live in the european union in their country here, and not to leave the country and to work in european union countries. just a final thought on this. you reached out to kiril petkov when he was prime minister of bulgaria. he is no longer the prime minister. and there are many in your country, notjust the opposition, notjust the hardline nationalists, but many others, like formerforeign minister nikola dimitrov, who say this — they still believe sofia, bulgaria's aim is to build in north macedonia a second bulgarian state, that having failed to conquer this country in the past, bulgaria is now using its eu membership as leverage to try and achieve the same end, ie, there's very little trust in

bulgaria in this country. do you trust bulgaria? i trust the macedonian people and i trust the process and the negotiation framework which we have with the european union. and i trust our institutions, our academia, our ngos, our media, that we all together will do the negotiations with the european union in a fast pace. there are many politicians from this side of the border, and from the other side of the border, which have built their careers by talking about the past. it is easiest, it's easiest to be a politician who talks about the past, because when you talk about the past, you don't promise anything. you only play with the emotions of the people. it is very hard to be a politician who talks about the future, because then you make promises. let me ask you about a possible alternative future

for north macedonia. you've referred to the turbulence in this region. some other countries in your region have chosen, it seems, to look at geopolitical alternatives to the european union. i'm thinking, for example, of serbia, which has forged over the last 15 years a deep economic relationship with china worth many billions of dollars of chinese investment inside serbia. north macedonia has been reaching out to china as well. is your message to europe that if they don't speed up the process of embracing you, you will look to china as an alternative? two days ago, here was the president of the european commission, madame von der leyen. and besides signing the frontex agreement, first agreement with a clear macedonian language between north macedonia and 27 member states of the european union, we agreed on additional issues.

first, the european union will provide e80 million, as ofjanuary, budget support for fighting and tackling the energy crisis. number two, for the western balkans, the european union will provide half a billion euros for energy transition and for the green deal. so it means new power plants, new infrastructure in terms of gas supplies through ports in friendly countries. and this is something which is showing that the european union is very much focused on this region. right, but you haven't answered my question. and you talk about you talk about hundreds of millions of euros. i'm telling you that in serbia, china has invested in infrastructure to the tune of $7—8 billion. i'm just wondering whether you, if you don't get what you want from europe, may look elsewhere. north macedonia is a liberal economy and we are free in our foreign relations. with china, there are investors from china

which work in this country. so if you go in the free development economic zone in skopje, where american companies are working, german companies, canadian companies, then there are some also chinese companies which produce products in the automotive industry. there were some infrastructure projects in the past which were done with chinese investors and contractors. but my opinion, not at the level of success which the country and which the government, this government, expected. so many of them, i must be honest, were part of serious allegations. endemic corruption, which included allegations about those... serious allegations, many of these projects have been prolonged for years because of bad planning, because of bad execution. now, during this past five

years, there is the new social democratic government, these problems have been solved in terms of the project management and i hope that they will be finished. prime minister kovacevski, we have to end there. thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello. it is still very mild out there, and another mild day from monday. it looks like temperatures will approach closer to the seasonal norm after that. we have rain in the forecast for the trick—or—treaters, most of us will get the rain later on today, some will have

it already in the morning, for example in northern ireland. you can see the weather front approaching earlier on and on the satellite picture. ahead of it, you see clearer weather across the bulk of the rain in england, wales and eastern parts of scotland. also clear weather out towards the east, some showers out towards the west, and here's the weather front crossing ireland. the morning temperatures will range from around 14 degrees along the channel coast, to 12 in liverpool, and around 10 degrees in glasgow, edinburgh, and also aberdeen. 0nto the forecast for monday morning, that rain eventually reaches belfast, the western isles of scotland, but elsewhere a bright if not sunny start and some sunshine for birmingham, hull, newcastle, 15 or 16 degrees. showers start to appear on the south coast, the middle of the afternoon and as the afternoon wears on, it does look as though there will be showers spreading northwards into wales which

will become more extensive. as i say, for some of the trick—or—treaters, we are forecasting rain. tuesday's weather map is rather complicated, low pressure weather front will sweep across the country, there will be a noticeable breeze, it will be a changeable day, a real mixed bag, particularly gusty come the evening along the english channel. temperatures around 12 degrees in scotland and northern ireland, to around 15 or 16 in east anglia and the south—east. on wednesday, i think there will be some fine weather, but then the autumn low will sweep in off the atlantic. extensive rain, that area of low pressure will have gusty winds, certainly gale force the outlook for the week ahead in to friday, you see a steady decline in temperatures to around 13 or 14, and the low teens further north.

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