this is bbc news — the headlines... president zelensky of ukraine has said that russia is planning to continue attacking the country's infrastructure. around four 4.5 million ukrainians are currently around 4.5 million ukrainians are currently living without power. aid agencies in the southern city of mariupol say at least 25,000 people have been killed since the war began. the head of the un has told the cop 27 climate summit that global warming is changing the world at a catastrophic pace. the annual meeting has discussed giving money to poorer countries to deal with their climate—related losses, and the damage they've already suffered. the prime minister of tanzania has confirmed that at least 19 people were killed when a passenger plane crashed into lake victoria,

while attempting to land in stormy weather. authorities say more than 20 people survived the crash, and were taken to hospital. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk from helsinki. i'm stephen sackur. when vladimir putin launched his invasion of ukraine, he probably didn't consider the impact it would have on another neighbour, finland, but maybe he should have, because after decades of pragmatic coexistence, finland has made a big strategic decision to join nato, to send weapons to kyiv, and to build a big fence along the border with russia to keep russians out. my guest today is the president of finland, sauli niinisto.

do finns now see russia as the enemy next door? president sauli niinisto. welcome to hardtalk. thank you. mr president, finland hasjust made a major strategic shift. this country is now prepared to join naito. prepared tojoin nato. how big a deal is that? it is, but if you look back, let's say time before...after cold war ended, that's beginning of �*90s, we have all the time developed our interoperability with nato, our armament is, well, quite modern, usa—based mostly.

so, in a way, we have been very prepared all the time. but the change is, like you said, remarkable. it's remarkable because public opinion has moved so far so fast. just a year ago, polls suggested that 20 to 30% of finns liked the idea ofjoining nato. now it's 75% to 80%. yes. is that based on a new level of fear of neighbouring russia? first of all, even though so many said a year ago that no reason to apply for membership in nato, they were not actually against nato. it was more like a rational or pragmatic opinion. we don't need it now. and that's why we kept on saying, our governments, that we keep the door open

for a possibility to apply. what happened, actually, was that in december last year, putin gave a speech saying that no more enlargement of nato. which was a message in part to finland. that was a huge message, because, so far, i had been explaining, many others, that from our own will, we stay militarily unaligned, and we even thought that it will in a way balance the situation in baltic sea area. now russia's saying you can'tjoin. that surely changed. what about... ? well, let's get to that idea, then, of fear. is there a new level of fear in this country of your great neighbour, russia, because of putin's invasion of ukraine? we have centuries of experience of russians and...

..we are cautious. i guess everything is cautious when we talk about russia. fear is a bit exaggeration here. is it? is it exaggeration? when you see what has happened since february of this year? see what putin is prepared to do to ukraine? well, you might call it fear, but i see it otherwise. inside finns, like i said, for centuries, is a very good knowledge of russia, and that hasn't been so positive all the times. we have hard experiences and now, after ukraine, attack to ukraine, well, that mind told that, well, we have been cautious for good reasons. let me ask you about your relationship with vladimir putin. you, probably more than any other head of state in europe, know putin well.

i think you've had a dozen meetings with him over many years. i think i'm right in saying you've played ice hockey with him. you even, as i understand it, introduced him to your own mother. is that true? yes, actually, my mother happened to be in my residence and she wanted to see. so you called putin in may, as finland made the decision to seek nato membership. you spoke to him direct? yes. what did he say to you when you told him? first of all, why i called him. i am not a fellow who sneaks away around the corner. so i thought that it's clear, straightforward, telling him, well, we are going to nato. he took it very calmly, saying that you make a mistake. but he... how did he express it? he doesn't consider it as a threat to russia. this was his comments.

and i'm sure that he knew why i'm calling for, and he had decided to take it calmly. you personally, mr president, have clearly believed you could have a good, positive working relationship with putin. you've had it for years. you were one of the key advocates for a pragmatic cooperation with russia. would you now acknowledge to me that you got putin wrong? you might well think that way, but... well, don't you think that way? i want to refer to our first discussion that took place almost immediately i took the office, when i met him in russia. he said to me, "why are you going to nato?" i said that our government has now decided not to do any preparation on that, but that we will enhance our cooperation with nato,

with our partnership with... bilaterally with sweden, even with the usa, and i want the european union to develop more defence thinking. he asked me why, and i said that every independent nations maximise their security. and russia understands that kind of expressions. well... so why it was in a way important to try to have normal relations, at least normal relations, we have a long borderline. i know that. in 2015, we suddenly saw that they let people come, so—called refugees, from 30 countries to finland, crossing the border, asking for asylum and... you mean weaponising the migration issue?

in a way. a human weapon. and you fear that for the future? we are prepared for that too. let me ask you this. but if i continue. and i still see that we have to be pragmatic in certain issues, like maritime. in the gulf of finland, there is a lot of traffic. and finland, estonia, russia are controlling that together. these kind of things. but you bring me to a very important point, mr president. you have this long border with a very powerful neighbour. russia has significant leverage it can use against finland, starting with energy — oil and gas. you are now facing a real energy crisis this winter. it's not that you use a huge amount of russian oil and gas, but you use some. yes. you're facing blackouts this winter. your people may begin to wonder whether you can afford putin as an enemy.

no, i do not believe that such a discussion will appear in finland, because, actually, we are not in that bad position with our energy. well, you're going to have blackouts this winter. are you sure? well, your own ministers have said if we do not control the use of electricity and power, we are going to face a crisis. that's a bit different than blackouts. if we try to save energy. and you have to know that we have now a new nuclear power plant starting, a big one. so things are not surely in the best possible way in finland, but we are in a lot better position than central europe. you talked about the traffic of people across your borders. finland has taken the decision to stop all tourist

visa entry from russia. yes. alongside the baltic states. a clear message to moscow. yeah. france and germany have said they're not prepared to do that. in fact, the germans think it's a mistake because they think it's going to stop those young men who want to avoid serving in the russian military — it's going to stop them seeking safe haven in the european union. do you think you might have made a mistake? france and germany don't have a common border. it's easy to shout a bit further away, but you have to keep in mind that finland respects its international agreements and legislation — for example, concerning asylum. so if people are in a position of having an absolute need for shelter, they will surely ask asylum.

and finland is prepared to offer russians political asylum if they say they are opposed to putin's regime? that will be studied case by case. when it comes to the european reaction to what is happening in ukraine, are you satisfied with the level of assistance — both military and financial — that europe is giving to kyiv? i am almost sure that nobody — and specifically not russians — could estimate earlier on how big the european, american help will be, how extensive, with

armament, with money. the other question is whether it's enough or not. and what's the answer? what we have seen, actually, is that in the very beginning, after february 24th, there were lots of fears about enlargement and escalation of the crisis. and little by little, we have seen heavier armament, more armament delivered to ukraine. but the point is, mr president, the vast majority of that weaponry — particularly the most powerful weaponry — is coming from the united states. that is true. that military assistance amounts to something like 27 billion us dollars. yes. now, key economies in europe — france, germany, i dare say yours too — your contributions in terms of military equipment are minimal compared with the americans. why? do you know what i'm thinking? when...

we happen to have this long border line, too. what about if we give up our armament? well, right now, ukraine's need is more serious than yours. well, but... or are you actually... are you more frightened of russia than you wanted to tell me at the beginning of this interview? like i said, after ending of cold war, we have all the time building up our military resources. and i would say that we are proportionally one of the strongest, if not strongest, in europe. we never gave up and we have understood all the time to be cautious. but continue being cautious is also important. but ukraine's need is now. yes. and it's urgent. and it's not even just about weaponry. it's about money, too. the imf reckons that ukraine will need roughly 3 billion euros per month to get through.

and you have to keep in mind... actually, i have been talking to president zelensky often, and he expresses very clearly what they want. there are very few elements we haven't given them, but most of their needs we have fulfilled. and when it comes to monetary aid... ..we have been helping international organisations, and you can't see that as a direct help to ukraine, even though it's used in ukraine. let's talk about the future and about the endgame for this ukraine—russia war and crisis for all of europe. yeah. do you believe that europe, finland, must support ukraine with weapons and money until every last russian soldier has been forced out of every inch of ukrainian territory?

in other words, is total ukrainian victory your vision of what the end of this looks like? my ambition is that the moment ukraine announces... ..that they are satisfied and they start maybe negotiations or whatever — then. listening to them, rather than making your own decisions on situations. so you will be entirely driven by president zelensky and the ukrainian government's view? what they want. zelensky�*s view is quite clear — there will be no more negotiations with vladimir putin. he, according to the ukrainian government, is a war criminal, and they will not deal with him. are you now prepared to deal with vladimir putin, to talk to him as you've done in the past so many times?

first of all, i know what president zelensky has been saying and, well, we are following now what he's saying. have you talked to putin since may when you told him you were joining nato? no. do you regard vladimir putin today as a war criminal? uh, there are investigations, and i support that. it has to be investigated, like it's proposed. mr president, you see the facts on the ground, as i do, from bucha to mariupol. do you need investigations to answer a question as simple as this? is vladimir putin responsible for war crimes? that should be condemned, like in international legislation, we have agreed. is vladimir putin responsible for war crimes? it seems to be the case. is that a yes?

hm? is that a yes? i believe that it is. it seems to be the case that he is responsible what has been happening and done criminal acts. thank you for being clear. in that case, how can you or emmanuel macron or 0laf scholzjustify the idea of still talking to vladimir putin? i am a strong supporter of macron and scholz continuing if there is a possibility of saving human lives. you have to keep that also in mind. if such a possibility is so, it has to be used. just... but i don't see just at the moment such a possibility. we've talked a lot about your relationship with russia and how it is changing,

in fact, changing in dramatic ways. one area, arena, of potential confrontation in the future is the arctic north. hmm. do you believe that the world's great powers — and i'm thinking of the united states, russia, i'm thinking of china too — do you think that they are looking at the arctic and actively wanting to exploit its oil and gas resources, its commodities and its shipping routes in a way that is going to further damage the planet, release more greenhouse gases, and actually leave your country struggling even more with climate change? trying even to aim that the arctic will melt. really? that's. .. no, i do not believe that. but, yes, there are huge expectations of maritime routes. yes. and natural resources.

and the interest hasn't been only russia and chinese. it has been also european. i said sometimes that there are both benefits and dangers. now i'm turning more only to dangers because benefits, actually — more gas, more oil when we are trying to get rid of fossil — that's not a benefit. are you going to go to cop27 in egypt and deliver that message to the united states, to china, to russia? not this time. i have been to glasgow, but i have delivered this message to both president putin and president trump very clearly — that if we lose the arctic, we lose the globe. mr president, i want to end, actually, with one other

challenge you faced in the last few months. it's one that the world has watched with some interest. your prime minister, who you obviously have to work with very closely, sanna marin. she got into trouble in this country because some pictures, some video was leaked which showed her partying with friends in the summer. now, she regretted some of those pictures that were leaked. hmm. she agreed to take a drug test, which, of course, proved negative. but there was much discussion in this country, first of all, of what she did, but also whether it was fair, the way it was reported. you work with her very closely. i'd be very interested to know what you said to her at the time and whether you think it's done damage both to her and to finland. actually, we haven't been talking with her about that. so...damage?

well, we see that her support, according to polls, is like it used to be. so no damage. and i do not believe that it has damaged finnish reputation. i haven't heard... do you think she was treated... ? you've been in politics a long time. yeah. do you think she was treated differently because she is a woman — relatively, in political terms, a young woman? well, i have to say that during my times when i was younger, well, i met quite a lot of critics for good reasons, but nevertheless, so...he was dealt quite hardly. but i know a lot of politicians who have been dealt hardly. hmm. you have served, what, at least ten years in this office.

you're one of the longest—serving leaders and heads of state in all of europe. do you contemplate leaving office, as you will, in a year or two's time, feeling very positive about europe's future? or not? i don't know. at the moment, i'm very worried, like we all are, i guess, because we are facing now in europe a world which we couldn't imagine a year ago or, let's say, two years ago. let's take an example about daily discussion of using nuclear bombs. ten years ago, you didn't hear the wording nuclear bomb being publicly said. so do you think putin...? again, you know putin well. do you really think putin is capable of first use of a nuclear weapon in the ukraine war?

i don't know him that well and what he's thinking, but what i think or what i have seen, actually, that he has, like a poker player, put all—in, including himself and his fate. and it's very difficult to try to estimate. i don't know him, but... ..for any person who is in such a position, what will happen when the truth comes to your face? what will happen? that's a question. for me too. to which you fear the answer may be the worst possible outcome. i wouldn't. ..

i'm not thinking about nuclear bombs because... well, everybody who is using nuclear bomb or thinking about that has to realise that nobody is winning anything. and at the end, everybody is losing as much. we have to end there. but, president niinisto, i thank you very much... thank you. ..you for being on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. river flows across the uk have been responding to the much—needed rainfall we've had this week. forsome, though, it has been a little bit too much all at once. take 02 kent and sussex in particular, where only six days into the month, we've already had double the normal november rainfall in a few spots. that will help to top the reservoirs up, it'll take a little bit longer, but more rain to come — some heavy showers across the south—east through the night and into the morning, and then the rest of the week, like we'll see into monday, low pressure dominating to the west. for monday, though, it's throwing weather fronts and plenty of moisture our way in terms of cloud. cloud and outbreaks of rain across most parts of the uk through monday will come and go. most persistent probably across through the cumbrian fells, parts of dumfries and galloway, and across snowdonia. there will be some brighter spells, top and tail of the day, towards southern england and northern parts of scotland, especially. but even though we've got excessive amounts of cloud, the winds coming from the south—west, temperatures above where we should be at this stage of november — 12 to 15 degrees. those wind strengthen, though, through the evening,

a spell of squally rain which will keep some of you awake, i think, monday night into tuesday — wind gusts through monday night could be around 40, 50, maybe 60 miles an hour at times before that band of heavy rain gradually clears towards the east. and then it puts us into a straightforward mixture of sunshine and showers, and the temperatures staying on that mild side — this is how we start tuesday. ten to 13 degrees, just to give it a bit of context, is where we should be by day at this time of the year. this is the chart for tuesday — low—pressure to the north—west. around it, we're going to see plenty of bands of showers pushing their way in. but, compared with monday, there'll be more sunshine — so sunshine, showers, sunshine, showers — it will be one of those ever—changing days. best for staying driest for longest — if not completely dry — parts of northern scotland and some in eastern england — again, temperatures above where we should be for this stage in the year. wednesday, the winds shift a little bit to more of a westerly direction, so early showers around the english channel will fade, and some south—eastern areas will get through the day largely dry, if not completely dry. showers most frequent towards parts of scotland, northern ireland and north—west england. a touch fresher on wednesday, but through wednesday

night into thursday, the next deep low in north atlantic starts to drag up ahead of these weather fronts — some very mild air all the way from the mid—atlantic. now, that's going to bring warmer conditions any time of year, but this time of the year it will bring lots of cloud around, outbreaks of rain and drizzle in the west, but that cloud will start to break up later in the week with a bit more sunshine, and temperatures still continuing to climb.

griffin this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. at the cop summit in egypt, leaders outline a global mission for newjobs and clean growth, as developing countries seek compensation for the climate damage they've already suffered. ukraine's president zelensky calls on western countries to do more, as russia is planning to continue attacking his country's infrastructure. translation: no matter what the terrorists want, | no matter what they try to achieve, we must endure this winter and be even stronger in the spring than we are now. the far—right italian government is accused of breaching international law by preventing hundreds of migrants from leaving two

rescue ships docked in sicily. with less tha 48 hours until us midterm elections,