this is bbc news. the headlines: turkey says a person suspected of having left a bomb that caused an explosion on sunday in istanbul has been arrested by police. the blast killed at least six people and injured dozens more. president recep tayyip erdogan said the attack "smelled of terror". president volodymyr zelensky says ukrainian investigators in kherson have uncovered evidence of war crimes in areas of the city abandoned by russian forces on friday. he said those responsible would face justice. the security situation remains tense, and an overnight curfew has been imposed. a tehran court has handed down the first death sentence in connection with the continuing protests in iran. the protests began about two

months ago after a 22 —year—old woman, mahsa amini, died in custody after being arrested for not fully covering her hair. now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking. who is doing the most to save the planet. the people who are attaching themselves to those areas or throwing soup or mashed potatoes at masterpieces? is the political leaders who crammed into that resort in egypt for the 27th

summit or scientists try to find ways to carry on living our lives without catastrophically warming of the planet? i think you would add to that list and a bit of a puzzle, given the increased concern about the environment and climate change. i'm joined by the co—leader, one of two co—leaders carla denyer, used to be an engineer and wind farms. she concluded that solving the climate crisis when turbine at a time is not going to work, a counsellor in bristol and instrumental in making this the first city to declare a climate emergency and she joins me today. carla denyer. welcome to political thinking. have you ever been tempted to glue yourself to an old master or tie yourself onto a gantry.

i have not chosen to that route myself but i do think there is a very important rule for protest in any healthy democracy and you only have to look at the democracies that do not allow and stamp down on protest to see that itjust doesn't make for a good society for good political decision—making. but my focus as the co—leader of the green party isn't on protests in the streets, it's about getting fantastic counsellors and assembly members elected at all levels of government to enact the policies that will tackle climate change. a democratic route and protesters, is it something in your younger days that you were tempted to do? do you look at them now and wish you had done that?

i have partaken in the protests i think that's an important part of the mix. i think one of reasons why i'm pursuing change through party politics is that i think that is where i personally can add the most value to have a background as an engineer and the renewable energy sector and i understand the science and i think it is good to have people understand the science in the decision—making to raise the issue and the question that needs to be asked. i support their right to protest and i think that is difference between the green party and other political parties and i think it is essential and has an important role but that doesn't mean i agree with every protest that takes place, certainly not. i think some of them are quite well targeted to make their points well, i think others are not really targeted at the right people or the balance of disruption might not be what i would choose. it is not for me to decide.

how you became involved and engaged, the early campaigns when you're at school, when you start to become, i suppose, they're not about the environment, there are other causes. i got involved in campaigns on particular issues, i was part of the stop the war campaign and this was in the run—up to the iraq war. you are 18 at the time of tony blair in the iraq war. yes, that was happening around the time i was doing my a levels and i also was in a campaign called make trade fair. listeners of my age or older remember that fair trade, coffee and bananas did not use to be available in supermarkets. if you wanted to buy those products that were produced paying people a decent wage and avoiding child slavery, and you had to usually go

to a church hall for two hours on a saturday to get your chocolate bars. and you wanted your school shop to provide those? yes, they did not provide those to me that they should. me and a group of my friends lobbied for the college to change their suppliers initially, they said no because the contract supplied notjust ours but a number of others in the region and so, they said it would be too difficult. long story short, we did not take no for an answer and in the end they said yes, not just for us but for all of the education establishments they supplied. what did you learn from that experience of taking on the local authorities as well? i think you are the change is possible that campaigning works and even though i was interested in party politics that stage and had zero idea that i might one day

be the leader of a political party, it undoubtedly led to a confidence in myself that i could bring about change and i got involved in subsequent campaigns at my university and getting my to provide facilities and i got elected as a counsellor in bristol. confidence is an important thing in politicians and one of the reasons you had the confidence was a teacher. i went to a regular state school but it was a really good state school and had this super

teacher programmer basically, graduates would be encouraged to go and teach in the state school for a couple of years before going off and doing something else in my school received one of those. and this teacher, he set up lots of extracurricular activities that preps to other teachers would not of had the capacity to do alongside theirjobs and one of them was a debating society which you, very unusual in state schools we learn the skills of debating and disagreeing politely using logical arguments and we competed with other schools in a region in which we were almost always the only state school in the competition which is very telling anything that did give me experience and skills that undoubtedly has proved helpful now. did you come from a politicalfamily? no, not at all and i certainly was not very interested in party politics. you were a campaigner before you are interested in party politics but you're also quaker, is that important to your values? i discovered that when i was at the university in campaigns

and peace, unfairness and workers�* rights with things like the campaign and climate issues and in the universities where it was through some of the individuals that i met in those campaigns and several individuals that i thought were particularly effective and driven and principled, it turned out that several of them were also quakers that peaked my interest and made me think ok, maybe there's something to this thing if all of these people i admire are members. alongside this, you're wearing a white poppy which, what do you think it's a symbol of? i remember service people who have fallen as many of us do but i wear the white poppy to say never again and that we must work towards peace rather than just solving our disagreements through war and suffering. is it a symbol of pacifism?

i probably wouldn't say i'm absolutely 100% pacifist, i think that the uk is right to be supporting ukraine at the moment, for example. but it is absolutely a philosophy of seeking peace and recognising that peace isn't just the absence of war, it is a proactive movement and it is hard work that takes decades and quakers have often been at the heart of peace building work all over the world, i really value that and about these movements and so, i wear both. you study engineering, you get a job developing the technology that is part of the solutions of the climate crisis of the wind turbines, while you're doing that, if this is the answer, i'm at the cutting edge and if i can find a better, cheaper way of developing renewable energy, that is the most important thing i can do?

that is what i thought to start with and the work i was doing was about estimating, but it would generate and develop the site out and lay out the wind farms and that work does help to bring down the cost of renewable energy and so, if they can make more money out of wind farms, then they are likely to build more of them. however, it was very obvious from watching the news and hearing what was coming out of the earlier cop climate conferences that the uk in the world was not moving anything fast enough for carbon reduction and i could see from myjob and the news, that the barrier to moving at the pace we needed to was not technology. there are still some technological challenges that very clever people are continuing to work on but the real barrier to moving faster was political will of those in charge and so, ijoined the green party a few

years after i started working on the wind energy sector and initially with absolutely no intention of becoming a politician myself, not even a twinkle in my eye, it was literally just to give the green party a little bit of money and a little bit of my volunteer time to help get other people elected because i knew that the green party agreed with my views on this. the big campaign success what people thought that divestment, in other words, persuading pension funds, the university of bristol, to take their funds out from investing in oil and gas companies. arguably, it's just another way of stopping oil, the same philosophy behind it and does it actually work though? it really does and it's quite powerful and in fact, one of the experts that

i was citing in the speeches that i was writing in the documents i was submitting as part of my efforts to get the university of bristol to divest was quoting the governor of the bank of england at the time who was warning that investment and oil and gas extraction at that time, which was 2015, 2016, it is fiscally unwise, even if you do not care about climate change. it was quite risky because you may find your investment disappear as people stop using fossil fuels. the term is stranded assets because the vast majority of the oil and gas that is under the ground and under the sea cannot be burned and it's a financial folly to invest in more of this, which is why we are opposing the current conservative government investing in this right now but it was successful in bristol and there are many around the country as well persuading the university to withdraw their money.

a piece of academic research put it a 1k trillion dollars of divestment and investment but this is gone up and so, all that campaigning in the front is not actually reducing the amount of money developing oil and gas. no campaign is effective in isolation, as part of the wider picture. but i think the divestment movement is really powerful for a number of reasons. those big institutions and it is often universities, councils, religious institutions, i was also involved in the campaign to get quakers in britain to divest funds from fossil fuels a few years earlier. getting them to pass policies on divesting in fossil fuels means they have to find something else to invest in instead and very often, they would choose to invest in things that are positive for society in so,

that might be renewable energy or it might be other social goods like, affordable housing, that is a fairly stable long—term investment for things like pension funds. the language of climate emergency is pretty familiar to people now. i mean, even the conservative government under theresa may adopted that language. you first argued for it. in bristol, i imagined it was not well known and there was quite a job for you to do to persuade people that language would make a difference. that's right. in 2018, i wrote and proposed a motion to bristol city council, calling on it to declare a climate emergency, to bring forward the city's carbon neutral target date from 2050 to 2030, and to lobby the government for the powers and the funding necessary to achieve that goal. and this is — although the specific idea

of declaring a climate emergency was pretty new, my motion which was the first to be successful in europe, then hundreds of other organisations of followed suit and about you take councils have declared an emergency meeting with ambitious targets as well. i listen to your speech which you go with your coleader and yes, there was an idea for this big tax on the wealthy to pay for more installation, for example. but when i went through it, there was a lot more on inequality, a lot more on what you call fairness and there was on the climate emergency and when i read your tweets that you've done in the last few days before doing this interview, they're not about the climate, they are about a whole series other issues, about the tory government's behaviour about this or that. have you actually become an anticapitalist party rather than primarily an environmental party? than primarily an environmental -a ? , than primarily an environmental .a ? , ., , than primarily an environmental party? so, the green party has alwa s party? so, the green party has always been — party? so, the green party has

always been about _ party? so, the green party has always been about climate - party? so, the green party has always been about climate and j always been about climate and fairness and in fact the reason i joined the fairness and in fact the reason ijoined the party back in 2011 was because i realise that unlike the other political parties, the greens understood that climate justice and economic and social justice that climate justice and economic and socialjustice are inextricably linked, they have some of the same, the injustices have some of the same causes and many of the solutions are the same survey have to be tackled one. the question — have to be tackled one. the question was _ have to be tackled one. the question was quite - have to be tackled one. the question was quite specific, are you an anticapitalist party? are you an anticapitalist .a ? , are you an anticapitalist -a ? , , ., , party? views will probably differ but _ party? views will probably differ but slightly - party? views will probably differ but slightly between different members but i think we are certainly very sceptical of capitalism as an economic system. of capitalism as an economic s stem. ., ., ~' of capitalism as an economic s stem. ., ., ~ ., of capitalism as an economic s stem. ., i. system. looking at your motions- _ system. looking at your motions. yes, - system. looking at your motions. yes, go - system. looking at your motions. yes, go for . system. looking at your motions. yes, go for it. | system. looking at your . motions. yes, go for it. it's system. looking at your - motions. yes, go for it. it's a very democratic _ motions. yes, go for it. it's a very democratic party. - motions. yes, go for it. it's a i very democratic party. indeed. and therefore, you as a leader cannot make a policy. ec 2001. you are covering _ cannot make a policy. ec 2001. you are covering this _ you are covering this thoroughly!— you are covering this

thorou~hl ! , . thoroughly! ending dependence on economic— thoroughly! ending dependence on economic growth. _ thoroughly! ending dependence on economic growth. you - thoroughly! ending dependence on economic growth. you say, l on economic growth. you say, you want to allow and i quote "zero or negative growth". so your pitch to people is we want the economy to get smaller? what we actually want is for certain sectors, like renewables and insulation, for example, to grow and they need to grow rapidly in order to meet the needs of society. that is what i mean, _ meet the needs of society. that is what i mean, if _ meet the needs of society. that is what i mean, if you _ meet the needs of society. that is what i mean, if you want - is what i mean, if you want zero or negative growth in the economy over the years, get smaller. �* , ., ., smaller. it's not about proactively _ smaller. it's not about proactively pursuing i smaller. it's not about - proactively pursuing economic d growth as much as being agnostic about the particular measure of gdp growth, gross product. because gdp is a terrible measure of how an economy is doing and how society is doing.— economy is doing and how society is doing. the reason i ask if you _ society is doing. the reason i ask if you see _ society is doing. the reason i ask if you see is _ society is doing. the reason i ask if you see is it _ society is doing. the reason i ask if you see is it because i society is doing. the reason i ask if you see is it because it| ask if you see is it because it seems to be a problem at the green party has always had which you yourself talked about, was being seen as middle—class. there was a

direct link between people who can think they can call for the economy to get smaller and class. which is the sort of thing that people are relatively comfortable off, or very comfortable, sitting around, debating. but people who are not very comfortably off would never dream of staying on with the economy to get smaller. staying on with the economy to get smaller-— get smaller. well, you very nearly touched _ get smaller. well, you very nearly touched on - get smaller. well, you very nearly touched on their - get smaller. well, you very| nearly touched on their wife get smaller. well, you very i nearly touched on their wife i think —— touched on their way i think —— touched on their way i think that climate justice and economicjustice can be tackled hand in hand because we want to see redistribution. we want to bring a wealth tax because that would help tackle the gross injustices in this country where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. a wealth tax, quite a modest wealth taxes is what we propose that our conference, just 1%, only on wealth above £14 just 1%, only on wealth above £3.11 million, and that would go to all of the stuff i've been talking about earlier, installing more renewable

energy, a nationwide home insulation programme. that would help those on the lowest incomes. �* , ., ., incomes. but you did say that the greens — incomes. but you did say that the greens were _ incomes. but you did say that the greens were too - the greens were too middle—class, didn't you? i acknowledge that's the perception. i think it's increasingly at odds with reality. so for example in bristol where i am a counsellor, i'm one of 2a green counsellors on the bristol city council, largest group of green counsellors in the uk, in fact, and a group of green counsellors is really diverse. we have quite a few counsellors from working—class backgrounds, very proudly so. we also have a great diversity in terms of age my sexuality, etc. and i think thatis my sexuality, etc. and i think that is really good because it results in better quality decisions when you've got a wider diversity so i agree it is a challenge for the environmental movement but i think it is something we are getting better and better at including more people in the discussion.— discussion. you must've thought. _ discussion. you must've thought, though, - discussion. you must've thought, though, why . discussion. you must've - thought, though, why hasn't there been the growth in green politics? some will say it's

the voting system which obviously is very cruel to smaller parties with their votes are spread evenly around the country but on the other hand that didn't stop ukip doing extraordinarily well. why doing extraordinarily well. why do you think the green party hasn't done better? the political _ hasn't done better? the political system - hasn't done better? tue: political system certainly doesn't help. so the first past the post system is, yeah, very disproportionate in terms of the number of seats you win for the number of seats you win for the number of votes. and interesting fact, i don't know if you know this, the uk is one of only two european countries that still uses first past the post for general elections. the other one is belarus. which is a pretty corrupt borderline dictatorship. i a pretty corrupt borderline dictatorship.— a pretty corrupt borderline dictatorship. i inviting you to look in the — dictatorship. i inviting you to look in the political - dictatorship. i inviting you to look in the political mirror. l look in the political mirror. what is it that the party... you are relatively new as a co— leader. it is that you are thinking that you have to change this if i'm going to get more success? i’m change this if i'm going to get more success?— change this if i'm going to get more success? i'm happy to look in the mayora — more success? i'm happy to look in the mayora but _ more success? i'm happy to look in the mayora but let _ more success? i'm happy to look in the mayora but let me - more success? i'm happy to look in the mayora but let me just -

in the mayora but let me just answer your question as well. part of the challenge is being given the opportunity to speak on the media so thank you for giving us this opportunity. but for example there hasn't been the leader of the green party on question time since 2019. and yet we have more counsellors now than you keep did at its peak. at which point nigel farage was on question time every couple of months. 0k, time every couple of months. ok, let's look in the mirror now. you've made the pitch. look in the mirror. what's the problem? i look in the mirror. what's the problem?— look in the mirror. what's the roblem? ~ ., ., problem? i think we also have, on a learning — problem? i think we also have, on a learning curve _ problem? i think we also have, on a learning curve about - problem? i think we also have, on a learning curve about how. on a learning curve about how to communicate our policies clearly, i think we are getting better at that now. i think that, yeah, like a few years ago, the leaflets that we would put through doors might be a bit too verbose. the put through doors might be a bit too verbose.— put through doors might be a bit too verbose. the dream must be that you. _ bit too verbose. the dream must be that you, perhaps, _ bit too verbose. the dream must be that you, perhaps, you - bit too verbose. the dream must be that you, perhaps, you are i be that you, perhaps, you are only in the late 30s, could emulate the foreign minister of germany who is leader of the green party there and ——

annalena baerbock. is that sort of hope you would have, albeit there are a lot of steps to take along the way? absolutely and ou take along the way? absolutely and you don't — take along the way? absolutely and you don't have _ take along the way? absolutely and you don't have to _ take along the way? absolutely and you don't have to look- take along the way? absolutely and you don't have to look as i and you don't have to look as far as germany see examples because a sister party the scottish greens are in government in scotland and getting great policies through, such as free bus travel for all young people. bringing in a rent is an eviction ban over this winter to protect people who are at risk of eviction because of the cost of living crisis. those are the kind of policies that greens and government can bring about and i'm chomping at the bit to do the same in england and wales. it's interesting that she, the green foreign minister of germany, is a leading campaignerfor more germany, is a leading campaigner for more defence spending, defending ukraine. i was interested you said as a quaker, someone who, as you put it i think, not 100% pacifist, you said you were in favour of the war in ukraine. in favour

meaning you think british arms should be sent to defend ukrainians? i should be sent to defend ukrainians?— should be sent to defend ukrainians? ., �* ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour— ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour of _ ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour of war, _ ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour of war, i _ ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour of war, i said - ukrainians? i did not say i'm in favour of war, i said i - in favour of war, i said i think it is right for the uk to support ukraine because... understood. what's the difference, though? the point you're trying to make by that distinction?— distinction? ukraine is a sovereign _ distinction? ukraine is a sovereign country - distinction? ukraine is a sovereign country and i distinction? ukraine is a l sovereign country and has distinction? ukraine is a - sovereign country and has an absolute right to defend its borders. and russia has breached those and has invaded ukraine so it's absolutely right that ukraine should be able to defend itself. and that the international community supports ukraine in doing so. but i feel that's quite different to being in favour of wars. i want to see the world move towards, rather than mutually assured destruction —— destruction and threats of violence to solve problems, i want to see a global security architecture and maybe the un could be the beginning of that. where the default is solving things through negotiation more

thanit things through negotiation more than it is currently. find things through negotiation more than it is currently.— than it is currently. and it's a while, — than it is currently. and it's a while, i — than it is currently. and it's a while, i guess, _ than it is currently. and it's a while, i guess, before - than it is currently. and it's| a while, i guess, before you can see yourself being the foreign minister, it would require a change of voting system and a coalition. disagree with that! {30 system and a coalition. disagree with that! go on. well, i'm _ disagree with that! go on. well, i'm standing - disagree with that! go on. well, i'm standing in - disagree with that! go on. i well, i'm standing in bristol west, which is, yeah, the constituency i stood in last general election as well in 2019 where i came second and got more votes than any green has ever got in the uk other than carolyn lucas in brighton. and we have every chance of getting me elected as the first green mp in bristol next time around. �* green mp in bristol next time around._ especially| around. and then? especially with the, _ around. and then? especially with the, i — around. and then? especially with the, i was _ around. and then? especially with the, i was going - around. and then? especially with the, i was going to - around. and then? especially with the, i was going to say, | with the, i was going to say, the boundary changes which have just been announced, which, yeah. just been announced, which, eah. �* ,, just been announced, which, eah. �* ., yeah. and then, though? i said there was _ yeah. and then, though? i said there was a _ yeah. and then, though? i said there was a long _ yeah. and then, though? i said there was a long way _ yeah. and then, though? i said there was a long way before . yeah. and then, though? i said | there was a long way before you may become a member of parliament, you might not, but you crippled with my suggestion that there was quite a long way before you may dream of becoming the foreign secretary.

why did you quibble with that? why did you quibble with that? why do you think change may happen quickly?— why do you think change may happen quickly? based on where ollin: is happen quickly? based on where polling is at _ happen quickly? based on where polling is at the _ happen quickly? based on where polling is at the moment, - happen quickly? based on where polling is at the moment, it - polling is at the moment, it doesn't look like either we're going to have another conservative government, the exact complexion of the new government will, it's hard to predict at this stage, a lot will change probably between now and the next general election, but i would be very happy to work with other left—wing and centre—left parties to form the coalition government. i would parties to form the coalition government. iwould negotiate hard to make sure that we learned lessons of where greens have gone into government elsewhere so in scotland for example, the scottish greens negotiated a really good deal with the snp where they managed to get really firm commitments out of the snp and reserve the right to publicly differ on areas they disagree on maika willesee oil and gas. and so, —— north sea oil and gas. so we could have greens in government after the next election. bud after the next election. and ou after the next election. and you look — after the next election. and you look forward _ after the next election. and you look forward to - after the next election. and you look forward to doing it? after the next election. and i you look forward to doing it? i would be happy to work with other parties.—

other parties. what is your fantasy job. _ other parties. what is your fantasy job, any _ other parties. what is your fantasy job, any job - other parties. what is your fantasy job, any job in - fantasy job, any job in government? fantasy job, any “ob in government?_ fantasy job, any “ob in government? fantasy job, any “ob in rovernment? , , ., government? given my background in the energy _ government? given my background in the energy sector _ government? given my background in the energy sector i _ government? given my background in the energy sector i would - in the energy sector i would love to be energy minister. carla denyer, we cannot make your dream come true but thank your dream come true but thank you forjoining me on political thinking. you forjoining me on political thinkina. . ~ you forjoining me on political thinkina. ., ,, i. you forjoining me on political thinking._ given i you forjoining me on political| thinking._ given the thinking. thank you. given the seed of thinking. thank you. given the speed of change _ thinking. thank you. given the speed of change we _ thinking. thank you. given the speed of change we have - thinking. thank you. given the speed of change we have seen j thinking. thank you. given the i speed of change we have seen in the past few years in politics, the past few years in politics, the past few next —— weeks, for goodness sakes, it really isn't as far—fetched as some people may think for carla denyer to dream that she might be an mp in government and even the energy minister. she is inspired others will look to the success of greens in scotland and, of course, the powerful role played by the greens in the new —ish german government. thanks for watching. hello there.

some central and eastern parts of the uk, a murky monday morning. but out towards the west, we've started to see some outbreaks of rain. the first signs of a change to some less mild but rather wet and windy weather through the week ahead. so, here's our band of cloud and rain, staggering slowly eastwards through the day. ahead of that, some areas of low cloud, mist and fog, some of which will take a time to clear. in fact, it could stay quite grey and murky all day long for some parts of central and eastern england and eastern scotland. brighter skies developing in northern ireland through the afternoon — not quite as mild as it has been. and then, as we go through monday night, we will see this first band of rain petering out but this next weather system works its way in from the west and that will bring some heavy rain, particularly into parts of wales and the south—west of england by tuesday morning, a strengthening breeze as well. so, as we look deeper into the week, we're going to see some very wet and very windy weather, but it will not be as mild as it has been.

welcome to bbc news — i'm gareth barlow. our top stories: explosion. an explosion in istanbul kills at least six people and injures more than 80. turkish police have made an arrest. now police are carrying out their investigations, and there is a real sense among people here of anxiety. for istanbul, this has come as a shock. ukraine's president zelenksky says investigators have uncovered evidence of war crimes in kherson, which was occupied by russian forces for more than eight months. a tehran court hands down the first death sentence, in connection with the continuing protests in iran, over the death in custody of 22—year—old mahsa amini.

political recriminations over the us midterms, after the republican party's predicted success fails