brightening up here quicker than it will do across eastern scotland, but the sunshine will come out for most. the far north, east aberdeenshire, parts of caithness and orkney may stay cloudy and damp all day long. away from that, though, western areas start dry and sunny, but we will see some showers, some of those heavy and thundery. they'll develop and work their way eastwards for the end of the afternoon and evening. another cool day at 8—12 degrees. now on bbc news, the media show. hello — how should journalists cover climate protests? the climate conference, cop27, ended this week. but you might have seen more about the activists who threw oil on a gustav klimt painting in vienna or the protesters who brought the m25 to a standstill. in an era of apparently increasing climate action, what's the media's role? and by giving the latest stunt

publicity, is it fanning the flames? i'm joined by cameron ford, who's a carpenter and spokesperson for insulate britain. and richard felgate, a documentary maker who was arrested last week while filming at hejust stop oil protest. also here, wolfgang blau, who left his top job at conde nast and co—founded the oxford climate journalism network. danny shaw, who used to be a bbc home affairs correspondent. he's now free to say what he really thinks. and fiona harvey, the guardian's environment correspondent who is at cop27 in egypt and has just left a session to get on the phone to talk to us. fiona, what's the mood amongstjournalists? have your stories been cutting through on the front pages this week? well, the mood is pretty grim here, actually. last week, we had the world leaders arrive, there was great fanfare, they had great things to say, it was all hugely interesting. what's happening now is that it's a lot of men in suits gathered in windowless rooms, just pouring over pages of text,

deciding what to do about a semicolon here and a phrase there. it'sjust a grind now, these negotiations. and what does it mean for whether the stories are getting out there? well, for the guardian, we have a commitment to put the climate crisis on the front page of our website every day, and we also cover it very deeply in print. so we're still covering it, we're still here and writing a lot, but i think for my colleagues in other newspapers it's very, very difficult. 0k, well, we'll come back to you in a bit, fiona. but let's talk first about what happened last week, the arrest of three members of the media alongside protesters by hertfordshire police on the m25. the media three were later released without charge. yesterday, the national union ofjournalists joined civil rights groups to call for an independent review into police powers and the public order bill which is currently going through parliament. rich felgate, you were one of those arrested from the media. what's the latest? have the police apologised to you?

i'm still waiting for an apology. 0k... are you expecting one? we'll see. we will see. just to recap, so you were filming on a footbridge opposite the gantry where the protesters were. what happened ? why were you arrested? yeah, so i was filming in a public space away from where the protest was actually happening on the gantry, and as soon as police arrived and close the road then i heard them point up to the bridge and say "detain them," directed at me and another press photographer that was there. and straightaway, they came up to us and just put handcuffs on us. no interaction or discussion about what we were doing, they weren't interested in seeing press cards. just straightaway trying to get us out of the area and stop what we were doing. and how long were you held? about 13 hours. 0k, and then released without charges, as i said.

how did you know to be on that footbridge at the time? i mean, had you been tipped off that this protest was going to happen? yeah, sojournalists have sources, otherwise we wouldn't know about these protests. and were you surprised by being arrested? i mean, did it feel unusual? so this is the second time i've been arrested whilst filming a just stop oil protest. so frankly, i wasn't surprised at all. 0k. it feels like where there's so much media attention around thejust stop oil protests and that perhaps there's this trend of arresting journalists at the moment, it feels like this is almost a tactic by the police to make the protests less effective. we've heard the hertfordshire police and crime commissioner say

criticising the media for kind of giving the protests oxygen... yeah, i was going to come onto that. and i'd like to say, the national police chiefs�* council of course said journalists have a right to report on any form of protest, so they were taking a slightly different view from that. but do you think the lines are a bit more blurred in that kind ofjournalism, rather than other more traditional types of journalism? well, we're documentary film—making, and especially this kind of style of long—term following the people involved and kind of getting deeper into the story, it's essential to not only report on the scene but to build trust, gain access to be able to tell such a close story. and i think it's just an essential part of a kind of wider ecosystem of reporting. it's only possible to kind of really authentically portray what these

protesters are doing and why they're doing it and how they're doing it with film—makers who are using this kind of medium of spending time with them, getting closer to what they are doing. i suppose, is it difficult, do you think, for the police to tell the difference between a protester and a journalist these days? when everyone has cameras, everybody has phones, it's difficult to tell who is a journalist who is not? all they have to do is ask. which they didn't do, you say? is that right? they didn't. right, 0k. you know, let me bring in someone who actually takes part in this kind of protest. cameron forward is from insulate britain. let me just play you a clip you might have already heard of him on talk radio with mike graham from last year. what you do for living, cameron? i'm a carpenter. carpenter, right. so how safe is that for the climate? well, i work with timber, which is a much more sustainable material, rather than concrete. i also... but you work with trees that have been cut down then, don't you?

it's a sustainable building practice. how is it sustainable if you're killing trees? because it's regenerative, you can grow trees. right. well, you can grow all sorts of things, can't you? well, you can't grow concrete. see you, cameron. cheerio. well, that is the interview, but after the broadcast it got many millions of views on social media — and continues to. cameron, when you hear that again, what do you think? what a shame that we have to endure such idiocy in our media spaces. it really is crazy he still has a platform, really. is that how you see it? i mean, do you think, despite the way the interview went, would that be counted as ultimately a successful media appearance for you? what is your rationale when you decide who to do an interview with? yeah, i mean, off the back of that, i think a lot of people realised what we're up against. he clearly had his agenda for how he wanted the interview to go,

just drilling into what i do for a living. i can only imagine the sort ofjobs or not—jobs that he was hoping that i had that he could pick me apart for. so it did shine a light on what we are up against, and they will just say whatever they want to to undermine us, belittle us and not really open up an actual conversation about, you know, why we do such things. i mean, there's certainly a sense that, i don't know, some people are potentially looking for a reaction and it perhaps seemed to make good television. i mean, in september, piers morgan ate a big mac in front of a vegan activist. i've watched you on gb news get drawn into shouting matches with laurence fox. why do these interviews? i mean, if we only take the guardian interviews and we're on page one of the guardian, it's not going to cut it, we're not going to change public perception on the most existential

crisis that we've ever faced as a civilisation. it's mega. and if we just allow these shock—jock right—wing broadcasters tojust sort of belittle the crisis, which they do in every single way that they can, in all of their shows, with all their presenters. some of them are just atrocious, and clearly paid for by the fossil fuel industry. although, i suppose, some of them are also pushing a point, which is by doing these protests, there were people who missed their father's funeral or who didn't get to their cancer appointment. they are putting the side of, you know, many people in britain who feel, yes, they may be in favour of sorting out the climate, but they're also thinking that this isn't the right way to do it. sure. i mean, that's the only side that i've ever heard them want to talk

about when i've gone into these spaces. i mean, that we can talk about four maybe a minute, and if they want to drill down we can explain why we're using these tactics. the concept of the radical flank and that, actually, by being disruptive and more visceral like we are, broader movements that want the same thing, other movements like greenpeace or the green party, gain popularity. and so there is a lot of social science behind why we do what we do. but we never really get to talk about that. and clearly your clip went viral, lots of clips around this do go viral. do you get a sense, i don't know, are you conscious when you go onto these programmes? do you get a feeling that actually the aim is to wind you up so that they will get something to go viral? is that how you perceive it? i something to go viral? is that how you perceive it?— you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm _ you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a _ you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a bit _ you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a bit of _ you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a bit of an _ you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a bit of an optimist. l you perceive it? i don't know. i think i'm a bit of an optimist. i | think i'm a bit of an optimist. i think— think i'm a bit of an optimist. i think each— think i'm a bit of an optimist. i think each time ijust hope we will have _ think each time ijust hope we will have an _ think each time ijust hope we will have an actual conversation. and

that there — have an actual conversation. and that there is potential for that in all of— that there is potential for that in all of these. they are human, they have _ all of these. they are human, they have got— all of these. they are human, they have got deep down the two about our planet— have got deep down the two about our planet changing with the climate so rapidly _ planet changing with the climate so rapidly. and they have children and loved _ rapidly. and they have children and loved ones — rapidly. and they have children and loved ones. and i know that even though— loved ones. and i know that even though their whole angle is to anger, — though their whole angle is to anger, they are also human beings who have _ anger, they are also human beings who have got complex emotions around this realty— who have got complex emotions around this really tricky situation we find oursetves— this really tricky situation we find ourselves in. and genuinely, i want to open— ourselves in. and genuinely, i want to open that — ourselves in. and genuinely, i want to open that up with them. well, i've not to open that up with them. well, i've got wolfgang _ to open that up with them. well, i've got wolfgang blau _ to open that up with them. well, i've got wolfgang blau in - to open that up with them. well, i've got wolfgang blau in the - to open that up with them. -ii i've got wolfgang blau in the studio here. cameron's interview went viral and now that clip has an advert on it which presumably makes money. is the current vogue direct action, actually good business for the media industry? actually good business for the media indust ? ~ ., ~ , actually good business for the media indust ? ~ . ~ , , ., industry? media likes events, and that is a big _ industry? media likes events, and that is a big challenge _ industry? media likes events, and that is a big challenge for- industry? media likes events, and that is a big challenge for all- that is a big challenge for all climate journalists. that is a big challenge for all climatejournalists. when that is a big challenge for all climate journalists. when you ask a typical newsdesk editor who decides what to put on air or what to put on

the front page of still printing, what are the filters? how do you pick this topic are not this? initially they werejust pick this topic are not this? initially they were just brush you off and say it needs to be relevant, but when you spend time with them they say it needs to be new, it needs to be close to where my audience lives, and ideally if there is an event or person angle, it is easier to get it on the news. i it needs to be simple. so these kind of protests deliver an event, and you see the same and how the news media covers cop27. now we are in the nitty—gritty of week two and discussing formulations, and now you see an increasing number of stories about the food at cop or the sewage spills, only to not look at something that is much more complex. i think news media in general is better at covering events then covering complex things, so events and stunts are easier to cover by journalists, especially if they have

very little actual climate knowledge. i very little actual climate knowledge.— very little actual climate knowledge. very little actual climate knowledue. ., ~ knowledge. i would like to bring in dann knowledge. i would like to bring in donny sure — knowledge. i would like to bring in donny sure at _ knowledge. i would like to bring in danny sure at this _ knowledge. i would like to bring in danny sure at this point. _ danny sure at this point. interesting, obviously we were talking earlier about whether or not the lines are blurred between journalism and activism these days, butjust journalism and activism these days, but just the specific journalism and activism these days, butjust the specific one, if a journalist has knowledge of a protest that is likely to be against the law, what obligation do they have to call the police? i the law, what obligation do they have to call the police?- have to call the police? i don't think they _ have to call the police? i don't think they have _ have to call the police? i don't think they have got _ have to call the police? i don't think they have got an - have to call the police? i don't i think they have got an obligation have to call the police? i don't - think they have got an obligation to call the _ think they have got an obligation to call the police _ think they have got an obligation to call the police. they— think they have got an obligation to call the police. they are _ think they have got an obligation to call the police. they are there - think they have got an obligation to call the police. they are there to i call the police. they are there to report _ call the police. they are there to report what _ call the police. they are there to report what is _ call the police. they are there to report what is going _ call the police. they are there to report what is going on, - call the police. they are there to report what is going on, and - call the police. they are there to report what is going on, and if. call the police. they are there to i report what is going on, and if they -et report what is going on, and if they get a _ report what is going on, and if they get a tip _ report what is going on, and if they get a tip off— report what is going on, and if they get a tip off which _ report what is going on, and if they get a tip off which means _ report what is going on, and if they get a tip off which means they- report what is going on, and if they get a tip off which means they are i get a tip off which means they are in the _ get a tip off which means they are in the position— get a tip off which means they are in the position ahead _ get a tip off which means they are in the position ahead of _ get a tip off which means they are in the position ahead of the - get a tip off which means they are i in the position ahead of the protest or ahead _ in the position ahead of the protest or ahead of— in the position ahead of the protest or ahead of the _ in the position ahead of the protest or ahead of the event, _ in the position ahead of the protest or ahead of the event, then- in the position ahead of the protest or ahead of the event, then good . or ahead of the event, then good luck to _ or ahead of the event, then good luck to thorn _ or ahead of the event, then good luck to them. that _ or ahead of the event, then good luck to them. that is _ or ahead of the event, then good luck to them. that is a _ or ahead of the event, then good luck to them. that is a journalist| luck to them. that is a journalist using _ luck to them. that is a journalist using their— luck to them. that is a journalist using their sources— luck to them. that is a journalist using their sources well- luck to them. that is a journalist using their sources well and - luck to them. that is a journalist i using their sources well and being ahead _ using their sources well and being ahead of— using their sources well and being ahead of the — using their sources well and being ahead of the game. _ using their sources well and being ahead of the game. i— using their sources well and being ahead of the game. i think- using their sources well and being ahead of the game. i think what. ahead of the game. i think what happened — ahead of the game. i think what happened to _ ahead of the game. i think what happened to the _ ahead of the game. i think what happened to the three - ahead of the game. i think what. happened to the three journalists being _ happened to the three journalists being arrested _ happened to the three journalists being arrested by— happened to the three journalists being arrested by hertfordshire . being arrested by hertfordshire police — being arrested by hertfordshire police was _ being arrested by hertfordshire police was frankly— being arrested by hertfordshire police was frankly a _ being arrested by hertfordshire police was frankly a disgrace. l being arrested by hertfordshire - police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know. — police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know. it— police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know. it was— police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know, it was a _ police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know, it was a bad _ police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know, it was a bad day- police was frankly a disgrace. and, you know, it was a bad day for- you know, it was a bad day for policing — you know, it was a bad day for policing when _ you know, it was a bad day for policing when that _ you know, it was a bad day for policing when that happened. i you know, it was a bad day for. policing when that happened. we you know, it was a bad day for- policing when that happened. we have seen it— policing when that happened. we have seen it happen — policing when that happened. we have seen it happen occasionally— policing when that happened. we have seen it happen occasionally at - seen it happen occasionally at protests— seen it happen occasionally at protests before, _

seen it happen occasionally at protests before, but - seen it happen occasionally at protests before, but for- seen it happen occasionally at protests before, but for three| protests before, but for three journalists _ protests before, but for three journalists to _ protests before, but for three journalists to be _ protests before, but for three journalists to be arrested - protests before, but for three journalists to be arrested by i protests before, but for three i journalists to be arrested by one police _ journalists to be arrested by one police force _ journalists to be arrested by one police force does _ journalists to be arrested by one police force does indicate - journalists to be arrested by one police force does indicate that. police force does indicate that something _ police force does indicate that something was— police force does indicate that something was going - police force does indicate that something was going wrong . something was going wrong systemically _ something was going wrong systemically-— something was going wrong systemically. something was going wrong s stemicall . �* , ., systemically. and can you see how it ha--ens? systemically. and can you see how it happens? can _ systemically. and can you see how it happens? can you — systemically. and can you see how it happens? can you see _ systemically. and can you see how it happens? can you see how - systemically. and can you see how it happens? can you see how in - systemically. and can you see how it happens? can you see how in the . systemically. and can you see how it i happens? can you see how in the days where it used to be the case that journalists, all broadcast journalists, all broadcast journalists, carried cameras and nobody else did, now everyone has a camera. richard was talking about, they didn't even ask. they would have been able to tell he was a journalist if they had his business card sort of thing. it journalist if they had his business card sort of thing.— journalist if they had his business card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all- _ card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all. it _ card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all. it is _ card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all. it is so _ card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all. it is so easy. - card sort of thing. it doesn't make sense at all. it is so easy. there i sense at all. it is so easy. there is this— sense at all. it is so easy. there is this system _ sense at all. it is so easy. there is this system by— sense at all. it is so easy. there is this system by which - sense at all. it is so easy. there i is this system by which reporters, journalists, — is this system by which reporters, journalists, news— is this system by which reporters, journalists, news carriers - is this system by which reporters, journalists, news carriers carry. is this system by which reporters, journalists, news carriers carry a i journalists, news carriers carry a uk press — journalists, news carriers carry a uk press card, _ journalists, news carriers carry a uk press card, it— journalists, news carriers carry a uk press card, it is _ journalists, news carriers carry a uk press card, it is accredited, i journalists, news carriers carry a| uk press card, it is accredited, it has the _ uk press card, it is accredited, it has the national— uk press card, it is accredited, it has the national police _ uk press card, it is accredited, it has the national police chiefs' i has the national police chiefs' councit— has the national police chiefs' council on _ has the national police chiefs' council on the _ has the national police chiefs' council on the back— has the national police chiefs' council on the back of- has the national police chiefs' council on the back of it. - has the national police chiefs' council on the back of it. it. council on the back of it. it actually— council on the back of it. it actually says _ council on the back of it. it actually says that - council on the back of it. it actually says that it - council on the back of it. it actually says that it is - council on the back of it. it - actually says that it is recognised try actually says that it is recognised by them, — actually says that it is recognised bythem, there— actually says that it is recognised by them, there is— actually says that it is recognised by them, there is a _ actually says that it is recognised by them, there is a hotline - actually says that it is recognised . by them, there is a hotline number to call— by them, there is a hotline number to call to _ by them, there is a hotline number to call to verify— by them, there is a hotline number to call to verify the _ by them, there is a hotline number to call to verify the press _ by them, there is a hotline number to call to verify the press card. - to call to verify the press card. here _ to call to verify the press card. here is — to call to verify the press card. here is my— to call to verify the press card. here is my press— to call to verify the press card. here is my press card - to call to verify the press card. here is my press card right- to call to verify the press card. i here is my press card right here, to call to verify the press card. - here is my press card right here, it says the _ here is my press card right here, it says the national— here is my press card right here, it says the national police _ here is my press card right here, it says the national police chiefs' - says the national police chiefs'

council — says the national police chiefs' council recognise _ says the national police chiefs' council recognise the _ says the national police chiefs' council recognise the holder. says the national police chiefs' council recognise the holder of| says the national police chiefs' - council recognise the holder of this card as _ council recognise the holder of this card as a _ council recognise the holder of this card as a bona _ council recognise the holder of this card as a bona fides _ council recognise the holder of this card as a bona fides news - council recognise the holder of this| card as a bona fides news gatherer. it card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has _ card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the _ card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the number— card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the number to— card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the number to call— card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the number to call if- card as a bona fides news gatherer. it has the number to call if you - it has the number to call if you need _ it has the number to call if you need verification. _ it has the number to call if you need verification. it _ it has the number to call if you need verification. it has- it has the number to call if you need verification. it has got. need verification. it has got security— need verification. it has got security features. _ need verification. it has got security features. all- need verification. it has got security features. all they i need verification. it has got- security features. all they needed to do— security features. all they needed to do was— security features. all they needed to do was to — security features. all they needed to do was to ask— security features. all they needed to do was to ask those _ security features. all they needed to do was to ask those people - security features. all they neededl to do was to ask those people who security features. all they needed - to do was to ask those people who do have a _ to do was to ask those people who do have a press— to do was to ask those people who do have a press card, _ to do was to ask those people who do have a press card, and _ to do was to ask those people who do have a press card, and there - to do was to ask those people who do have a press card, and there is, - to do was to ask those people who do have a press card, and there is, you i have a press card, and there is, you can solve _ have a press card, and there is, you can solve the — have a press card, and there is, you can solve the situation. _ have a press card, and there is, you can solve the situation. no - have a press card, and there is, you can solve the situation. no need - have a press card, and there is, you can solve the situation. no need toi can solve the situation. no need to arrest _ can solve the situation. no need to arrest them — can solve the situation. no need to arrest them or— can solve the situation. no need to arrest them or take _ can solve the situation. no need to arrest them or take them - can solve the situation. no need to arrest them or take them into- arrest them or take them into custody— arrest them or take them into custody or— arrest them or take them into custody or whatever. - arrest them or take them into custody or whatever. and - arrest them or take them into| custody or whatever. and that arrest them or take them into. custody or whatever. and that is often _ custody or whatever. and that is often what — custody or whatever. and that is often what happens. _ custody or whatever. and that is often what happens. journalistsl often what happens. journalists around, — often what happens. journalists around, reporting _ often what happens. journalists around, reporting on _ often what happens. journalists around, reporting on things, i often what happens. journalists - around, reporting on things, coming into contact — around, reporting on things, coming into contact with _ around, reporting on things, coming into contact with the _ around, reporting on things, coming into contact with the police, - around, reporting on things, coming into contact with the police, and - into contact with the police, and they are — into contact with the police, and they are asked _ into contact with the police, and they are asked to _ into contact with the police, and they are asked to show - into contact with the police, and they are asked to show their- into contact with the police, and . they are asked to show their press card _ they are asked to show their press card so _ they are asked to show their press card so this, _ they are asked to show their press card. so this, to _ they are asked to show their press card. so this, to me, _ they are asked to show their press card. so this, to me, suggests - they are asked to show their pressl card. so this, to me, suggests that some _ card. so this, to me, suggests that some kind — card. so this, to me, suggests that some kind of— card. so this, to me, suggests that some kind of directive _ card. so this, to me, suggests that some kind of directive had - card. so this, to me, suggests that some kind of directive had gone . card. so this, to me, suggests that| some kind of directive had gone out from hertfordshire _ some kind of directive had gone out from hertfordshire police _ some kind of directive had gone out from hertfordshire police or- some kind of directive had gone out from hertfordshire police or a - from hertfordshire police or a directive _ from hertfordshire police or a directive to _ from hertfordshire police or a directive to kind _ from hertfordshire police or a directive to kind of— from hertfordshire police or a directive to kind of get - from hertfordshire police or a directive to kind of get tough| from hertfordshire police or a . directive to kind of get tough on protesters — directive to kind of get tough on protesters had _ directive to kind of get tough on protesters had been _ directive to kind of get tough on . protesters had been misinterpreted by someone — protesters had been misinterpreted by someone in _ protesters had been misinterpreted by someone in the _ protesters had been misinterpreted by someone in the chain _ protesters had been misinterpreted by someone in the chain of- protesters had been misinterpreted i by someone in the chain of command and they— by someone in the chain of command and they didn't — by someone in the chain of command and they didn't care _ by someone in the chain of command and they didn't care what _ by someone in the chain of command and they didn't care what anyone - and they didn't care what anyone said and — and they didn't care what anyone said and they _ and they didn't care what anyone said and they were _ and they didn't care what anyone said and they were just - and they didn't care what anyone said and they were just skippingl said and they were just skipping peopte — said and they were just skipping people up— said and they were just skipping people up and _ said and they were just skipping people up and then _ said and they were just skipping people up and then holding - said and they were just skipping. people up and then holding them said and they were just skipping - people up and then holding them in custody— people up and then holding them in custody for— people up and then holding them in custody for hours, _ people up and then holding them in custody for hours, which _ people up and then holding them in custody for hours, which is - people up and then holding them in custody for hours, which is just - custody for hours, which isjust frankly— custody for hours, which isjust frankly adding _ custody for hours, which isjust frankly adding insult _ custody for hours, which isjust frankly adding insult to - custody for hours, which isjust frankly adding insult to injury. i custody for hours, which is just . frankly adding insult to injury. find frankly adding insult to in'ury. and the national * frankly adding insult to injury. the national police chiefs' frankly adding insult to injury.- the national police chiefs' council, they have said thatjournalists have a right to report in any form of

protest and that it is very regrettable that journalists were caught up in it. all protests, they say, come with an enormous amount of pressure for policing, but journalist should not be prevented from keeping thejobs. journalist should not be prevented from keeping the jobs.— journalist should not be prevented from keeping the jobs. from keeping the “obs. absolutely in black and white, — from keeping the jobs. absolutely in black and white, reporting _ from keeping the jobs. absolutely in black and white, reporting as - from keeping the jobs. absolutely in black and white, reporting as part i black and white, reporting as part of the _ black and white, reporting as part of the media's— black and white, reporting as part of the media's role _ black and white, reporting as part of the media's role and _ black and white, reporting as part of the media's role and they- black and white, reporting as part i of the media's role and they should not be _ of the media's role and they should not be presented _ of the media's role and they should not be presented from _ of the media's role and they should not be presented from doing - of the media's role and they should not be presented from doing so - of the media's role and they should i not be presented from doing so from a public— not be presented from doing so from a public place — not be presented from doing so from a public place. please _ not be presented from doing so from a public place. please have _ not be presented from doing so from a public place. please have no- not be presented from doing so from a public place. please have no powerj a public place. please have no power or moral— a public place. please have no power or moral responsibility— a public place. please have no power or moral responsibility to _ a public place. please have no power or moral responsibility to stop - a public place. please have no power or moral responsibility to stop the i or moral responsibility to stop the filming _ or moral responsibility to stop the filming or— or moral responsibility to stop the filming or photographing - or moral responsibility to stop the filming or photographing of- filming or photographing of incidents— filming or photographing of incidents or— filming or photographing of incidents or police - filming or photographing of. incidents or police personnel. filming or photographing of- incidents or police personnel. it is there _ incidents or police personnel. it is there in_ incidents or police personnel. it is there in black— incidents or police personnel. it is there in black and _ incidents or police personnel. it is there in black and white. - incidents or police personnel. it is there in black and white. and - incidents or police personnel. it is there in black and white. and a i there in black and white. and a number— there in black and white. and a number of— there in black and white. and a number of senior— there in black and white. and a number of senior police - there in black and white. and a| number of senior police officers have _ number of senior police officers have come _ number of senior police officers have come out— number of senior police officers have come out and _ number of senior police officers have come out and defended i number of senior police officersl have come out and defended the number of senior police officers - have come out and defended the right of the _ have come out and defended the right of the press _ have come out and defended the right of the press to— have come out and defended the right of the press to report. _ have come out and defended the right of the press to report. if _ have come out and defended the right of the press to report. if you - have come out and defended the right of the press to report. if you like, i of the press to report. if you like, a rogue _ of the press to report. if you like, a rogue action _ of the press to report. if you like, a rogue action. but _ of the press to report. if you like, a rogue action. but it— of the press to report. if you like, a rogue action. but it is— of the press to report. if you like, a rogue action. but it is very- a rogue action. but it is very worrying _ a rogue action. but it is very worrying and _ a rogue action. but it is very worrying and it _ a rogue action. but it is very worrying and it is— a rogue action. but it is very worrying and it is right i a rogue action. but it is very worrying and it is right that. a rogue action. but it is very- worrying and it is right that there is an— worrying and it is right that there is an inquiry— worrying and it is right that there is an inquiry into _ worrying and it is right that there is an inquiry into it. _ worrying and it is right that there is an inquiry into it.— is an inquiry into it. fiona, your view on the _ is an inquiry into it. fiona, your view on the protesters? - is an inquiry into it. fiona, your view on the protesters? does l is an inquiry into it. fiona, your view on the protesters? does it is an inquiry into it. fiona, your i view on the protesters? does it help or hinder yourjournalism? weill. or hinder your “ournalism? well, protesters — or hinder your “ournalism? well, protesters re— or hinder yourjournalism? well, protesters are really _ or hinder yourjournalism? well, protesters are really important. | protesters are really important. here _ protesters are really important. here we — protesters are really important. here we are in egypt for cop27, and

there _ here we are in egypt for cop27, and there are _ here we are in egypt for cop27, and there are almost no protests going on. there are almost no protests going on there — there are almost no protests going on. there are very muted, people taking _ on. there are very muted, people taking out— on. there are very muted, people taking out banners and then rolling them _ taking out banners and then rolling them up _ taking out banners and then rolling them up very quickly so they don't -et them up very quickly so they don't get chased — them up very quickly so they don't get chased away. we had a small protest _ get chased away. we had a small protest during president biden's speech— protest during president biden's speech a — protest during president biden's speech a few days ago. but we are not really— speech a few days ago. but we are not really seeing the civil society activism — not really seeing the civil society activism that we would expect to see in a free _ activism that we would expect to see in a free society, because of course here _ in a free society, because of course here in_ in a free society, because of course here in egypt the sentence is a band and the _ here in egypt the sentence is a band and the jails here are heaving with political _ and the jails here are heaving with political prisoners. sol and the jails here are heaving with political prisoners. so i think that maybe _ political prisoners. so i think that maybe shows the difference that protest — maybe shows the difference that protest can make when you see a cop happening _ protest can make when you see a cop happening where it is almost more resilient _ happening where it is almost more resilient -- — happening where it is almost more resilient. , , ., happening where it is almost more resilient. , , . , resilient. -- resistant. i remember last year. — resilient. -- resistant. i remember last year. i'm _ resilient. -- resistant. i remember last year, i'm advising _ resilient. -- resistant. i remember last year, i'm advising the - resilient. -- resistant. i remember last year, i'm advising the united i last year, i'm advising the united nations— last year, i'm advising the united nations climate _ last year, i'm advising the united nations climate change _ last year, i'm advising the united nations climate change division. last year, i'm advising the unitedl nations climate change division at the negotiations— nations climate change division at the negotiations in— nations climate change division at the negotiations in glasgow, i nations climate change division at i the negotiations in glasgow, several negotiators— the negotiations in glasgow, several negotiators said _ the negotiations in glasgow, several negotiators said they— the negotiations in glasgow, several negotiators said they were _ the negotiations in glasgow, several negotiators said they were really i negotiators said they were really happy _ negotiators said they were really happy there _ negotiators said they were really happy there were _

negotiators said they were really happy there were protesters i negotiators said they were really - happy there were protesters outside, it really— happy there were protesters outside, it really helps — happy there were protesters outside, it really helps build _ happy there were protesters outside, it really helps build the _ happy there were protesters outside, it really helps build the pressure - it really helps build the pressure we need — it really helps build the pressure we need inside _ it really helps build the pressure we need inside this— it really helps build the pressure we need inside this venue - it really helps build the pressure we need inside this venue for. we need inside this venue for negotiations _ we need inside this venue for negotiations. and _ we need inside this venue for negotiations. and i— we need inside this venue for negotiations. and i often- we need inside this venue for. negotiations. and i often think we need inside this venue for- negotiations. and i often think that journalism — negotiations. and i often think that journalism and _ negotiations. and i often think that journalism and activism _ negotiations. and i often think that journalism and activism of - negotiations. and i often think that journalism and activism of course l journalism and activism of course are two— journalism and activism of course are two very— journalism and activism of course are two very different _ journalism and activism of course are two very different things. - journalism and activism of course are two very different things. butj are two very different things. but thatjournalists _ are two very different things. but that journalists should _ are two very different things. but that journalists should never- are two very different things. but l that journalists should never forget that journalists should never forget that we _ that journalists should never forget that we owe — that journalists should never forget that we owe all _ that journalists should never forget that we owe all of _ that journalists should never forget that we owe all of our _ that journalists should never forget that we owe all of our rights, - that journalists should never forget that we owe all of our rights, the l that we owe all of our rights, the freedom — that we owe all of our rights, the freedom of— that we owe all of our rights, the freedom of speech, _ that we owe all of our rights, the freedom of speech, the - that we owe all of our rights, the freedom of speech, the right- that we owe all of our rights, the freedom of speech, the right to i freedom of speech, the right to vote, _ freedom of speech, the right to vote, the — freedom of speech, the right to vote, the right _ freedom of speech, the right to vote, the right to _ freedom of speech, the right to vote, the right to gather, - freedom of speech, the right to vote, the right to gather, the l freedom of speech, the right to i vote, the right to gather, the right for us _ vote, the right to gather, the right for us to— vote, the right to gather, the right for us to speak, _ vote, the right to gather, the right for us to speak, we _ vote, the right to gather, the right for us to speak, we owe _ vote, the right to gather, the right for us to speak, we owe them - vote, the right to gather, the right for us to speak, we owe them to l for us to speak, we owe them to activists— for us to speak, we owe them to activists of— for us to speak, we owe them to activists of earlier— for us to speak, we owe them to activists of earlier generations. i activists of earlier generations. what _ activists of earlier generations. what is — activists of earlier generations. what is responsible _ activists of earlier generations. what is responsible journalism| activists of earlier generations. - what is responsible journalism when it comes to the climate? i guess thatis it comes to the climate? i guess that is the big question. should we see climate change as a subject like no other to be covered by journalists? the owner, i wonder what your views are from cop27? can you be impartial on the subject of climate change, do you think? i climate change, do you think? i think you can be impartial, but i think— think you can be impartial, but i think you — think you can be impartial, but i think you have to present the facts. and the _ think you have to present the facts. and the facts are the scientists have _ and the facts are the scientists have told — and the facts are the scientists have told us very clearly that we are oh _ have told us very clearly that we are on a — have told us very clearly that we are on a precipice, that we are facing — are on a precipice, that we are facing a — are on a precipice, that we are facing a tipping point where if you surpass— facing a tipping point where if you surpass them we will be living on a planet _ surpass them we will be living on a planet that — surpass them we will be living on a planet that is unlivable. we have seen _ planet that is unlivable. we have seen changes to the climate that are

catastrophic and irreversible. that's— catastrophic and irreversible. that's not— catastrophic and irreversible. that's not me, that is scientists saying _ that's not me, that is scientists saying that. i am just reporting the facts here~ — saying that. i am just reporting the facts here. and i think that we have to do— facts here. and i think that we have to do that — facts here. and i think that we have to do that. fire facts here. and i think that we have to do that. �* , . to do that. are the lines are blurrin: to do that. are the lines are blurring between _ to do that. are the lines are blurring between journalism to do that. are the lines are - blurring between journalism and campaigning? i'm thinking of the guardians front page yesterday. co—publishing an editorial calling for a urgent action on climate crisis. , . . , ., for a urgent action on climate crisis. , . . , . . crisis. yes, and that is a leader. newsnapers _ crisis. yes, and that is a leader. newspapers have _ crisis. yes, and that is a leader. newspapers have always - crisis. yes, and that is a leader. newspapers have always carried teaders — newspapers have always carried leaders. , . ., , ., newspapers have always carried leaders. ., . . , leaders. they are opinion articles. but not on — leaders. they are opinion articles. but not on the _ leaders. they are opinion articles. but not on the front _ leaders. they are opinion articles. but not on the front page, - leaders. they are opinion articles. but not on the front page, i - but not on the front page, i suppose. they were right on the front page. suppose. they were right on the front page-— suppose. they were right on the front page. suppose. they were right on the front nae. . . ., front page. one can run a leader on the front page- _ front page. one can run a leader on the front page. yeah, _ front page. one can run a leader on the front page. yeah, i _ front page. one can run a leader on the front page. yeah, i think - front page. one can run a leader on the front page. yeah, i think it - front page. one can run a leader on the front page. yeah, i think it was| the front page. yeah, i think it was really— the front page. yeah, i think it was really important that we got a huge number— really important that we got a huge number around really important that we got a huge numberaround the really important that we got a huge number around the world saying the same _ number around the world saying the same thing, giving that opinion. but that doesn't affect what i do as a news _ that doesn't affect what i do as a news reporter. that doesn't affect what i do as a news reporter-— that doesn't affect what i do as a news reporter. rich, i'm interested in our news reporter. rich, i'm interested in your views _ news reporter. rich, i'm interested in your views of— news reporter. rich, i'm interested in your views of campaigning - in your views of campaigning journalism. do you see yourself as a campaigning journalist? journalism. do you see yourself as a campaigningjournalist? i journalism. do you see yourself as a campaigning journalist?— campaigning “ournalist? i don't reall see campaigning journalist? i don't really see the _ campaigning journalist? i don't really see the situation -

campaigning journalist? i don't really see the situation we - campaigning journalist? i don't really see the situation we are | campaigning journalist? i don't. really see the situation we are in as a campaign. it is not really a course, it is life or death for everyone. so i think it is not really a situation where it's so valid to take sides. we need to get realistic about what is happening. and wolfgang, richard felgate doesn't see it as campaigning journalism. does it work? or does it convince? does it undermine objective reporting on this subject? it's really difficult to discern between journalism it's really difficult to discern betweenjournalism and it's really difficult to discern between journalism and activism because — between journalism and activism because there is also a form of journalistic activism in the form of a mission, — journalistic activism in the form of a mission, are simply not covering the topic — a mission, are simply not covering the topic. and you could argue that a large _ the topic. and you could argue that a large part— the topic. and you could argue that a large part of the news industry is simply— a large part of the news industry is simply not — a large part of the news industry is simply not covering climate change, whether— simply not covering climate change, whether intentionally or not. but increasingly it looks conscious because — increasingly it looks conscious because it is really hard to look away _ because it is really hard to look away now _ because it is really hard to look away now. personally, i think that journalism — away now. personally, i think that journalism should stay away from

activisrn — journalism should stay away from activism. there is always the short term _ activism. there is always the short terrn impact— activism. there is always the short term impact of activism because you leveraged _ term impact of activism because you leveraged the brand at all the trust that your— leveraged the brand at all the trust that your news brand is built off over— that your news brand is built off over decades and longer, but in the tong-term — over decades and longer, but in the long—term climate change is going away, _ long—term climate change is going away, we — long—term climate change is going away, we will still be wrestling with it — away, we will still be wrestling with it in — away, we will still be wrestling with it in 50,100 years from away, we will still be wrestling with it in 50, 100 years from now. it is with it in 50, 100 years from now. it is realty— with it in 50, 100 years from now. it is really important now that news brands _ it is really important now that news brands do _ it is really important now that news brands do not take sides, other than to force _ brands do not take sides, other than to force the — brands do not take sides, other than to force the issue into the public sphere — to force the issue into the public sphere so — to force the issue into the public s - here. ,, ., to force the issue into the public shere. i. to force the issue into the public shere. y., “ to force the issue into the public shere. ,, . , sphere. so when you think about this front -are sphere. so when you think about this front page of — sphere. so when you think about this front page of the _ sphere. so when you think about this front page of the guardian, _ sphere. so when you think about this front page of the guardian, it - sphere. so when you think about this front page of the guardian, it is - sphere. so when you think about this front page of the guardian, it is a - front page of the guardian, it is a leader but it is on the front page, do you see that as activism? i do. you do. i do. but fiona, you don't? i'm a journalist, i'm not an activist _ i'm a journalist, i'm not an activist i'm _ i'm a journalist, i'm not an activist. i'm not _ i'm a journalist, i'm not an activist. i'm not an- i'm a journalist, i'm not an activist. i'm not an opinion i'm a journalist, i'm not an- activist. i'm not an opinion writer either~ _ activist. i'm not an opinion writer either i— activist. i'm not an opinion writer either~ idon't— activist. i'm not an opinion writer either. i don't like _ activist. i'm not an opinion writer either. i don't like leaders. - activist. i'm not an opinion writer either. i don't like leaders. i- either. i don't like leaders. i write — either. i don't like leaders. i write news~ _ either. i don't like leaders. i write news. and _ either. i don't like leaders. i write news. and what - either. i don't like leaders. i write news. and what i- either. i don't like leaders. i. write news. and what i present either. i don't like leaders. i- write news. and what i present are the facts _ write news. and what i present are the facts of— write news. and what i present are the facts of what _ write news. and what i present are the facts of what is _ write news. and what i present are the facts of what is in _ write news. and what i present are the facts of what is in front - write news. and what i present are the facts of what is in front of- write news. and what i present are the facts of what is in front of me. | the facts of what is in front of me. and here — the facts of what is in front of me. and here i— the facts of what is in front of me. and here i am _ the facts of what is in front of me. and here i am at _ the facts of what is in front of me. and here i am at a _ the facts of what is in front of me. and here i am at a climate - the facts of what is in front of me. and here i am at a climate change conference — and here i am at a climate change conference that _ and here i am at a climate change conference that we _ and here i am at a climate change conference that we were - and here i am at a climate changei conference that we were discussing the entire _ conference that we were discussing the entire future _ conference that we were discussing

the entire future of— conference that we were discussing the entire future of humanity. - conference that we were discussing the entire future of humanity. so . the entire future of humanity. so that is— the entire future of humanity. so that is nry— the entire future of humanity. so that is my reflection. _ the entire future of humanity. so that is my reflection.— that is my reflection. over your time reporting. _ that is my reflection. over your time reporting, do _ that is my reflection. over your time reporting, do you - that is my reflection. over your time reporting, do you think i that is my reflection. over your| time reporting, do you think the language has changed? i think at the guardian you have taken the decision to use the term climate crisis, for example. that is an evolution in language. example. that is an evolution in lanaauae. . , , . language. that is hugely important. when i language. that is hugely important. when i started _ language. that is hugely important. when | started 18 _ language. that is hugely important. when i started 18 years _ language. that is hugely important. when i started 18 years ago - language. that is hugely important. when i started 18 years ago writing | when i started 18 years ago writing about _ when i started 18 years ago writing about climate — when i started 18 years ago writing about climate change _ when i started 18 years ago writing about climate change and - when i started 18 years ago writing about climate change and global. about climate change and global warming. — about climate change and global warming, global— about climate change and global warming, globalwarming- about climate change and global| warming, global warming sounds nothing — warming, global warming sounds nothing if— warming, global warming sounds nothing if you— warming, global warming sounds nothing. if you ask _ warming, global warming sounds nothing. if you ask someone - warming, global warming sounds nothing. if you ask someone if i warming, global warming sounds. nothing. if you ask someone if they would _ nothing. if you ask someone if they would like — nothing. if you ask someone if they would like a — nothing. if you ask someone if they would like a bit _ nothing. if you ask someone if they would like a bit of— nothing. if you ask someone if they would like a bit of global— nothing. if you ask someone if they would like a bit of global warming, | would like a bit of global warming, they say, _ would like a bit of global warming, they say. oh. — would like a bit of global warming, they say. oh. yes— would like a bit of global warming, they say, oh, yes please. - would like a bit of global warming, they say, oh, yes please. climate. they say, oh, yes please. climate change _ they say, oh, yes please. climate change sounds _ they say, oh, yes please. climate change sounds nice _ they say, oh, yes please. climate change sounds nice and _ they say, oh, yes please. climate change sounds nice and gentle, l they say, oh, yes please. climate . change sounds nice and gentle, like something — change sounds nice and gentle, like something gradual. _ change sounds nice and gentle, like something gradual. what— change sounds nice and gentle, like something gradual. what we - change sounds nice and gentle, like something gradual. what we know. change sounds nice and gentle, likel something gradual. what we know is that when— something gradual. what we know is that when the — something gradual. what we know is that when the climate _ something gradual. what we know is that when the climate changes, - something gradual. what we know is that when the climate changes, it. that when the climate changes, it does _ that when the climate changes, it does so _ that when the climate changes, it does so abruptly, _ that when the climate changes, it does so abruptly, whether- that when the climate changes, it does so abruptly, whether goes l that when the climate changes, iti does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes — does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes. what— does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes. what we _ does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes. what we are _ does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes. what we are going - does so abruptly, whether goes to extremes. what we are going to l does so abruptly, whether goes to l extremes. what we are going to see is nothing _ extremes. what we are going to see is nothing gentle _ extremes. what we are going to see is nothing gentle and _ extremes. what we are going to see is nothing gentle and nothing - is nothing gentle and nothing pleasant~ _ is nothing gentle and nothing pleasant~ we _ is nothing gentle and nothing pleasant. we are _ is nothing gentle and nothing pleasant. we are going - is nothing gentle and nothing pleasant. we are going to - is nothing gentle and nothing| pleasant. we are going to see is nothing gentle and nothing - pleasant. we are going to see real extremes — pleasant. we are going to see real extremes of— pleasant. we are going to see real extremes of weather, _ pleasant. we are going to see real extremes of weather, we - pleasant. we are going to see real extremes of weather, we are - pleasant. we are going to see real. extremes of weather, we are already seeing _ extremes of weather, we are already seeing them, — extremes of weather, we are already seeing them, we _ extremes of weather, we are already seeing them, we are— extremes of weather, we are already seeing them, we are seeing - extremes of weather, we are already seeing them, we are seeing floods . extremes of weather, we are alreadyj seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, _ seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, droughts— seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, droughts in— seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, droughts in africa. - seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, droughts in africa. so- seeing them, we are seeing floods in pakistan, droughts in africa. so we . pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need _ pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need to— pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need to reflect _ pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need to reflect that _ pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need to reflect that in _ pakistan, droughts in africa. so we need to reflect that in our- need to reflect that in our language _ need to reflect that in our language we _ need to reflect that in our language. we need - need to reflect that in our language. we need to- need to reflect that in our. language. we need to reflect need to reflect that in our- language. we need to reflect what the scientists— language. we need to reflect what the scientists are _ language. we need to reflect what the scientists are telling _ language. we need to reflect what the scientists are telling us. - language. we need to reflect what the scientists are telling us. so- language. we need to reflect what the scientists are telling us. so we have _ the scientists are telling us. so we have doc— the scientists are telling us. so we have doc talking _ the scientists are telling us. so we have doc talking very _ the scientists are telling us. so we have doc talking very consciously. the scientists are telling us. so wei have doc talking very consciously at

the guardian— have doc talking very consciously at the guardian about _ have doc talking very consciously at the guardian about climate - have doc talking very consciously at the guardian about climate change i the guardian about climate change and started — the guardian about climate change and started talking _ the guardian about climate change and started talking about - the guardian about climate change and started talking about the - and started talking about the climate — and started talking about the climate crisis, _ and started talking about the climate crisis, climate - and started talking about the - climate crisis, climate emergency, climate _ climate crisis, climate emergency, climate breakdown, _ climate crisis, climate emergency, climate breakdown, and _ climate crisis, climate emergency, climate breakdown, and we - climate crisis, climate emergency, climate breakdown, and we talk i climate crisis, climate emergency, . climate breakdown, and we talk about global— climate breakdown, and we talk about global heating — climate breakdown, and we talk about global heating. because _ climate breakdown, and we talk about global heating. because these - climate breakdown, and we talk about global heating. because these were . global heating. because these were words _ global heating. because these were words that— global heating. because these were words that reflect _ global heating. because these were words that reflect what _ global heating. because these were words that reflect what is _ global heating. because these were words that reflect what is really - words that reflect what is really going _ words that reflect what is really going on — words that reflect what is really aroin on. , ,, . words that reflect what is really aoian on. , ,, . words that reflect what is really aoainon. , ,, . ~~ words that reflect what is really aoain on. , ,, . “ ., going on. danny shaw, the bbc no lonaer going on. danny shaw, the bbc no longer balances _ going on. danny shaw, the bbc no longer balances the _ going on. danny shaw, the bbc no longer balances the question - going on. danny shaw, the bbc no longer balances the question of. longer balances the question of whether man—made climate change is happening, but it is still very careful with its language use. yes. careful with its language use. yes, i'm sure careful with its language use. yes, l'm sure it — careful with its language use. yes, l'm sure it is- _ careful with its language use. yes, i'm sure it is. and _ careful with its language use. yes, i'm sure it is. and quite _ careful with its language use. is: i'm sure it is. and quite rightly so, because it has got a very different position from some other media outlets. it has to be very careful. but it's around the evidence and it is around trying to be true to the evidence, but also at the same time reflecting different shades of opinion but not giving too much weight to opinions that are perhaps outliers and are reallyjust frankly not worth the paper they are written on. i frankly not worth the paper they are written on. ., . , ., written on. i wonder what your assessment —

written on. i wonder what your assessment is _ written on. i wonder what your assessment is of _ written on. i wonder what your assessment is of how - written on. i wonder what your assessment is of how the - written on. i wonder what your - assessment is of how the heatwave this summer was reported by the media? ifeel at this summer was reported by the media? i feel at the this summer was reported by the media? ifeel at the bbc this summer was reported by the media? i feel at the bbc we are encouraged not to use pictures of people eating ice creams when it is a a0 plus heatwave. people eating ice creams when it is a 40 plus heatwave.— a 40 plus heatwave. there is an issue around _ a 40 plus heatwave. there is an issue around the _ a 40 plus heatwave. there is an issue around the illustration - a 40 plus heatwave. there is an i issue around the illustration where the journalism issue around the illustration where thejournalism has become better, in terms of really warning people of the dangers. but often, you see these really well written pieces and then you see they are illustrated. you saw illustrations of dogs playing in fountains in parks and people on the beach that belittle the actual danger. ijust people on the beach that belittle the actual danger. i just wanted people on the beach that belittle the actual danger. ijust wanted to make one more point where i often think this question of whether climate change is human made. that is the last decade's discussion. it is the last decade's discussion. it is almost a sign of false courage to still make a point of that. that is kind of done. where the denial sets now is the ignorance, were media plays a hugely important role. it is to really help the public understand the dramatic difference between

global heating and warming by 1.5% versus 2 degrees or more. currently we are heading... the consequences are so radical, and that i don't see sufficiently covered. and there is also a lack of proportion missing. to me, climatejournalism looks like watching a football game with no goalposts. and the goalpost is the remaining carbon budget. this is how much more we can put into the atmosphere and this is how much time we have left. and against that, for instance, we could measure the entire business journalism. instance, we could measure the entire businessjournalism. and there are news organisations that do that. just like these eased — west conflict, climate change is one of our organising access from every department from culture to politics. fiona, how do you tell the story of 1.5 degrees. you don't call it climate change, but as something that engages people, that hooks them

in? ., . �* , ., in? you tell them what's out there, because if you _ in? you tell them what's out there, because if you are _ in? you tell them what's out there, because if you are not _ in? you tell them what's out there, because if you are not engaged - in? you tell them what's out there, because if you are not engaged by i because if you are not engaged by the story— because if you are not engaged by the story of how floods are covering nearly— the story of how floods are covering nearly a _ the story of how floods are covering nearly a third of pakistan and 20 million _ nearly a third of pakistan and 20 million people there are needing humanitarian aid, if you can't get a story— humanitarian aid, if you can't get a story out— humanitarian aid, if you can't get a story out of— humanitarian aid, if you can't get a story out of the fact that there were _ story out of the fact that there were 150 — story out of the fact that there were 150 million people in africa at the moment in the worst drought for 40 years— the moment in the worst drought for 40 years and they are on the brink of hunger, — 40 years and they are on the brink of hunger, you shouldn't be doing journalism — of hunger, you shouldn't be doing journalism if that doesn't strike you as — journalism if that doesn't strike you as a — journalism if that doesn't strike you as a story. the examples of the extremity _ you as a story. the examples of the extremity of — you as a story. the examples of the extremity of climate change are coming — extremity of climate change are coming thick and fast now. what really _ coming thick and fast now. what really counts is trying to explain to people — really counts is trying to explain to people some of these very technical— to people some of these very technical terms. 1.5 degrees, as wolfgang — technical terms. 1.5 degrees, as wolfgang just said. 1.5 degrees as the temperature increase if you are sitting _ the temperature increase if you are sitting in— the temperature increase if you are sitting in a — the temperature increase if you are sitting in a really properly wouldn't even notice it, but when you translate into the whole planet it's actually a huge difference. and the way— it's actually a huge difference. and the way i've tried to explain it is

that at— the way i've tried to explain it is that at the — the way i've tried to explain it is that at the moment we are only about 5 degrees— that at the moment we are only about 5 degrees warmer as a planet than we were in— 5 degrees warmer as a planet than we were in the _ 5 degrees warmer as a planet than we were in the last ice age. and that is the _ were in the last ice age. and that is the kind — were in the last ice age. and that is the kind of difference if you degrees — is the kind of difference if you degrees can make. we is the kind of difference if you degrees can make.— is the kind of difference if you degrees can make. we could keep talkina degrees can make. we could keep talking about _ degrees can make. we could keep talking about this _ degrees can make. we could keep talking about this and _ degrees can make. we could keep talking about this and no - degrees can make. we could keep talking about this and no doubt. talking about this and no doubt will, but i'm afraid that is all we have time for this week. thank you to all my guests and you for watching. that was the media show. goodbye. hello. the rain may have eased off but river levels have continued to rise and, through today so far, we've still had severe flood warnings out from sepa across parts of eastern scotland. and there is still some more rain to come during the next 2a hours. not quite the extent of what we have seen of late. but it's coming in this evening across ireland, then into western scotland, wales, western england. some heavy bursts at times.

it's going to turn a bit more erratic as it works its way eastwards so they will be some drier moments. but we could even see a bit of sleet and snow mixed in on the tops of the hills. temperatures will be a little bit up and down through the night, but by the end of the night most places will be around 5—8c as we start sunday. cloudy and wet start, that rain falling on saturated ground in eastern parts of scotland, eastern areas of england as well. brightening up here quicker than it will do across eastern scotland. the sunshine will come out for most. far north—east aberdeenshire, parts of caithness and orkney may stay cloudy and damp all day long. away from that, though, western areas start dry and sunny but will see some showers. some of those heavy and thundery. they'll develop and work their way eastwards for the end

this is bbc news, i'm tanya beckett. the headlines: the president of fifa has expressed support for the lgbtq community and migrant workers, but hits back at western critics of the country's human rights record, accusing them of hypocrisy. i think for what we europeans have been doing in the last 3,000 years, around the world, we should be apologising for the next 3,000 years before starting to give moral lessons to people. rishi sunak is in kyiv meeting ukrainian president zelensky for the first time as prime minister — and pledges to continue the uk's support. the head of the housing association

responsible for the mouldy flat blamed for the death of two—year—old awaab ishak has been sacked.