this is bbc news. the headlines — vigils have been held forfive people killed in a shooting outside a gay nightclub in the us state of colorado. twenty five people were injured. survivors have been speaking of how they took shelter and hid from the gunman. a 22—year—old suspect was arrested at the scene. world leaders had attended the opening event which featured an appearance by actor morgan freeman. vigils have been held for five people killed freeman. vigils have been held forfive people killed in a shooting outside a gay in the

united states and colorado. 25 people were injured. survivors have been speaking of how they took shelter and hid from the gunmen. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. my guess is the president of georgia on a visit here in london. her country which is part of the soviet union shares a long border with russia and its capital tbilisi isjust border with russia and its capital tbilisi is just a few kilometres away from thousands of russian troops and tanks stationed in two pro—moscow backed separatist enclaves in georgia. so how should georgia manage its relations with russia whilst at the same time pushing for closer ties with the west?

president, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for welcoming me. what was your reaction when you had about the polish made missile dropping and killing two people in poland? trier? two people in poland? very worried i— two people in poland? very worried i guess _ two people in poland? very worried i guess like - two people in poland? very worried i guess like the - two people in poland? very| worried i guess like the rest of the world but may be more worried. with my team we spent may be a night listening to the news on what was happening. and i think with my team, we spent the night listening to the news and what was

happening, although in a way it was going against my feeling that the nuclear balance is working so well even today that this line that is protected by nato is something that everybody is very careful about. and i was not thinking beforehand that russia deliberately would dare to touch any part of that territory, but everything can happen and there can always be a miscalculation. and there have been a number of miscalculations by the russian leaders, so nothing was excluded and so very worried. regardless of whether it was a miscalculation, you know, you didn't know, as you said, what exactly was behind it. but it has highlighted fears, hasn't it, in your neighbourhood? i mean, georgia has a border of nearly a thousand kilometres with russia. you have russian troops and tanks stationed very near your capital in the two pro—moscow backed separatist enclaves, south ossetia and abkhazia. you're a small nation of barely four million. your army is about 37,000. i mean, russia, if it wanted to, could take georgia in an afternoon. do you think it might

want to absorb you? 0h, russia has always wanted to absorb georgia. that's a long dream of the russian empire first, then of the soviet union that in fact incorporated the independent georgia in 1921. in 1992, �*93, what people did not know that much, russia was completely involved in the fight of the separatists against georgia and was actively militarily involved. 2008 was the latest manifestation of these attempts by russia. so we know that, we're living with that and we've been living for a very long time. first of all, georgia, one has to know, has also lived many centuries with many invasions by different empires and has resisted all of that. and that's maybe a miracle or it's resilience, i don't know. but do you think russia would invade georgia? do you think that there's

that possibility? no, i don't think so. i think that the example of what happened in ukraine, even if we don't have, let's be very clear, neither the army nor the depths of territory, nor the human resource or the military resource that ukraine has. but i think that what they have now been encountering in ukraine, and they know the resilience of the georgians individually to that type of occupation. so i don't think that, but i think that there might be, if and when. and we're seeing already the humiliation of russia and the fact that it's losing this war in many respects and it has made many miscalculations, that at one point in time, for internal reasons, it might be tempted of making a point over georgia where it's easier to mark some points. so i think that we have

to be very careful. at the same time, i would say that that should not, in no way, determine ouractions, ourwords and our orientation towards europe. because nobody... so vigilance needed ? vigilance, but nobody will ever prevent russia attempting something if russia thinks that at that point in time it's in their best interest. but there are things that we can do to make sure that we do not favour, or make it easier, let's say. i'll ask you about that in a moment. butjust one parallel with ukraine is the donbas region, which russia's really consolidated its hold on the breakaway republics there. and you've got these two separatist enclaves that are pro—russia, south ossetia and abkhazia — represents about a fifth of georgia's territory. those are lost to georgia forever, surely, aren't they, madam president? you can ask any georgian and no georgian will answer yes to that question.

and i think that this what has been a question of principle for all georgians to say that's not finished. we know history and things change over history. i think that today, like never, we think that we are entering a different world of geopolitics. i think that in these enclaves, in these separatist regions, the attitude towards russia has changed a lot since the invasion, the aggression in ukraine. looking at the way russia is behaving towards the people that russia was calling brothers or even russians. really? i mean, do you think that's the case? because, i mean, if you look at abkhazia, 60% of its budget comes from russia. even more in south ossetia. 90% of people there have russian passports. and i tell you what daur kove, the self—styled former foreign minister of abkhazia,

who stepped down last year, he says, "the georgians do not understand one simple thing. "we do not need them." yeah, that's the position of the separatist government. but the budget that you were mentioning, russia has just told the separatist governments that they will reduce drastically the budget. they're trying to occupy some lands, which is a question of principle for abkhazians, that they want to own their lands. and those parts of abkhazia that are really independentist, they might not dream of rejoining georgia, but they certainly do not dream any more to rejoin russia. but they may not rejoin georgia, is what you're saying? but if georgia is... that would be a way for you, though, wouldn't it? if georgia is the way to prosperity, if georgia is the way to europe, if georgia is the way to democracy, that might become, and i think is becoming more attractive to the younger

generation of abkhazians... to look at that, and we have to work in that direction, we have to show in all respects that the russian propaganda that georgia would be tempted, given the circumstances, to try a military measure against those regions is a russian lie. because georgia wants one thing. it's to reunite with those citizens that are our citizens and not to reunite only with territories. all right. but nevertheless, you say that, you know, perhaps ties are loosening in these two separatist enclaves in georgia, but you've got to pay more attention to your neighbourhood, haven't you, president zourabichvili? because i know you are very pro—western. in a previous career, you were a french diplomat and you perhaps are tilting too much to the west. i mean, russia is an important economic partner for georgia. you have lots of russian tourists who go. you've got georgians who work

in russia who send remittances. 27% of georgia's oil imports come from russia. so for economic reasons and also for the fact that you've got them so close, surely you need to have more of a balancing act and notjust rush into the arms of the west? you you are i think that the strength of georgia, has been over this 30 years, we've been always in this situation. as i said, it started in �*92, immediately after the independence and russia... after the break—up of the soviet union. ..tried to use this first frozen conflict, then occupied territories in order to stop our path towards europe. and it has not been able to do that. and i think that's the strength of georgia and that's the resilience of georgia to be able to continue on its path towards europe, towards nato, without being deterred by russian action. that doesn't mean that we have to look for confrontation. yeah. we have to be cautious, but we have to know where we are going.

that's the point i'm making. you've got to be cautious. i tell you what laura linderman at the atlantic council eurasia centre, a think tank, says. she says, "the georgian government is looking at the situation in ukraine in terror that they will be next and so they are trying to walk the line of not overtly antagonising the kremlin while still using this historic moment to formally apply for eu membership and do as much as they can for ukraine." that is the right approach, isn't it? yeah, but not too much caution. i think what is important is for russia to know. not too much caution where? what do you mean? we're not to give the impression to russia that we are so scared that we want to defer to all russian pretensions that can happen. i think what is important in order to prevent any attempt or any dream by russia of doing something is for our european partners to consolidate our path towards europe. and in that sense, i think

that we have to have a positive answer to the candidate status. i don't think that we can afford a second no, because that would give the wrong message to russia, that suddenly georgia has become a grey zone, not a country determined tojoin european union and nato, but a country that is considered by the europeans of being of a different category. so i think that we have to be very clear. clarity is our best defence. and do you think that the government... because of course, as head of state, you are not head of government. that's the prime minister. do you think that the ruling georgian dream party, which backed you as president in 2018, is not perhaps doing what you're suggesting sufficiently robustly? well, i've not always shared the same rhetoric. and i understand that when you are a government, you maybe have to use a different rhetoric. head of state is a different position where you can be probably freer.

but i was listening just beforejoining you here to the intervention of the prime minister in the parliament today, which was a long intervention and questions, and he was very clear about the candidate status, about our orientation. sure. and i think that's what it should be. that's the prime minister of georgia, irakli garibashvili. that's right. but you have slightly differed with them. for instance, you wanted greater support for ukraine, and georgia has notjoined the european and american sanctions on ukraine. and prime minister garibashvili earlier this year dismissed sanctions as unproductive. he says, "we sympathise with everyone, but we must protect our country and people first." that's where i differ from the rhetoric, because the facts are very different. georgia has joined the international financial sanctions. we have banks that are overly compliant, because they know that they need to keep

their reputation. and the country has been applying all of these sanctions, as well as, we have been part of all the international resolutions concerning ukraine and blaming russia in the un and in all the otherfora. sure. so that's where i'm saying that it's a question of rhetoric. i would never say that we are not part of the sanctions. we do not have national sanctions, and i don't know what they could be, but we are very much part of the international community, in terms of financial sanctions. because president zelensky of ukraine has really been quite cross with georgia, saying that they haven't, the government hasn't shown sufficient support. he withdrew his ambassador in disapproval, and so on. yeah. i mean, so you are president of georgia, but you're... you seem to have more sympathy with president zelensky of ukraine... i have good relations... ..than your own government. ..with president zelensky. i think that president zelensky, in his international diplomatic...

..has been sometimes very cross with different countries. sure. not only with georgia. we have a separate issue in...with ukraine, in that we have some georgians in the... ..leading in the elite of ukraine, that are playing a little bit of georgian politics, more than ukrainian politics. 0k. all right. but you see... to say it lightly! you see eye to eye with your... with the government? not on everything. there are always nuances. but i think that all in all, what is important is that they reiterate also the solidarity with ukraine, the orientation of georgia towards the european union. we have to become members. and nato. yeah. that's our ultimate aim, and we have no other perspective. 0k. so georgia signed an association agreement with the european union in 2014, and thisjune, the european union considered applications from georgia alongside ukraine and moldova. did not grant georgia candidate status. you have called for pro—eu

rallies in georgia. you've attended them yourself. you're very firmly pushing georgia towards that western european camp. so how disappointed were you when that decision was made? i was disappointed. the georgian population was disappointed. but at the same time, i think i understood and we understood that there was a specific situation of ukraine. ukraine got us where we are, with the european perspective and at the door of the candidate status, which was not expected at this stage in our relations with the european union. and it's clear that it has a link with the political situation, with the military situation of ukraine and the sensibility of... and of moldova. and maybe in the last year or so, our positions on certain european recommendations and on the charles michel document that we had agreed on...

charles michel is head of the european council. all of that did not make all the conditions for this granting to be immediate. yeah. but as i said before, what is important now, we have 12 recommendations of the european union, and i think that it's vital that in 2023, georgia is granted the candidate status, which doesn't mean membership. we'll have other criteria, more things to fulfil, more reforms to make. but in a strategic manner, it's important that the eu says georgia is part of this trio which we have created, and not something outside that could be an attraction for russia to play games. yeah. that's what you were referring to at the beginning of the interview, that you feel that georgia has ways of ensuring that it is in the european camp as a kind of antidote to possible russian aggression. but you're not doing

great on that score. as you said, the european union gave georgia 12 conditions. one of them, for instance, is over the appointment of supreme courtjudges to the supreme court. it's felt that there's too much political interference. around 20 were appointed in one go in a process that the european union said lacked credibility and integrity. do you think the government of georgia, the ruling georgian dream party, which has a very, you know, clear majority in the parliament, is serious about wanting tojoin the european union? i think they're working on it. i think that we are not perfect. i think many countries today are not perfect in these democratic achievements. and i certainly am one that is pushing on all these directions so that we deliver what we have to deliver. but again, i would say that today, tomorrow, the decision of the eu has to be a more strategic one than one based formally on the criteria. not to say that we push aside

the democratic reforms, that it's not important. sure. but i think that at this moment, what is predominant is the strategic issue and the risks of giving to russia the wrong message about georgia. all right. do you think the european union really wants georgia? because i tell you what the former deputy chair of the ruling georgian dream party, tamar chugoshvili, said in august, who says, "the party's leadership "has been stating repeatedly that the eu "has never intended to grant candidate status to georgia. "no matter what the authorities do, "such status will not be granted." does the eu want you? you want the eu, but do they want you? i think i know the eu a bit more than many. and they do? you think they are genuine? i think that they are genuine. they have given the candidate status to countries that, if we look at the strict technical reforms, maybe have not done even as much as georgia. i think that today the geopolitics is changing,

that the black sea, that used to be really a wall and geography matter, the geography doesn't matter any more. the distances have been reduced. and it's very important for the european union that the black sea and have on the other side of the black sea a country that is democratic, that is european, pro—european, and that's where the new transit lanes, the new connectivity is going to happen in the next decade. 0k. i want to ask you, cos one of the eu recommendations cited was the lack of respect for the privacy of communications in georgia. you said, "i will veto every bill which will be adopted "in the wrong direction in the coming six months." and injune, you vetoed a bill for the first time that would have extended the scope of state surveillance. are you going to continue doing that? doesn't it put you in a difficult position? no, i don't think so. as long as there is a majority, my vetoes are going to be overruled.

i know that. but you want to make a mark? i want to make the point. 0k. i think that we have to... i'm a form of monitoring, moral monitoring, that we are really trying to... but it puts you at loggerheads with the government. 0k. so you also want to join nato in georgia. you're a very close partner. you know, you spend 2% of your gdp on defence. you gojoin nato missions and so on. but i tell you what the special representative for the caucasus for the nato secretary general, he said, and his name is javier colomina. "whenever georgia is ready to access nato, "it will do so, although i do not think "there is a possibility to integrate "just one part of georgia." so while you've got abkhazia and south ossetia, not part of georgia because they are pro—moscow, you're never going to be able tojoin nato and enjoy it security umbrella. well, we never say never, because things, again, i think that nobody would have expected the world to look

the way it looks today. nobody would have expected russia to be so close to really lose a war with one of its neighbours. so i think that things are changing so fast that we'll never say never. yeah. we are getting prepared forjoining nato. we're having exercises with nato, including after the war started in ukraine. we had military exercises on our soil. so our caution is caution, but we still do whatever is necessary. but it's a big obstacle. you accept that? it's an obstacle. but germany. there are examples in history. so, as you say, never say never. 0k, we'll say, but it's not going to happen very quickly that you're going to enjoy nato's collective security umbrella. i want to ask you about the former president of georgia, mikheil saakashvili, who left georgia in 2013 after he lost the elections. of course, he was the leader of the rose revolution and so on. he went to ukraine, rather strange story, and he was tried in absentia on six counts of abuse of power

and sentenced to six years in prison. october last year, he returns to georgia and is promptly put in prison. he's been on a series of hunger strikes. and i want to tell you what the independent council of doctors who examined him in february this year said, "he has neurological diseases as a result of torture, "ill treatment, inadequate medical care "and a prolonged hunger strike." you have the power as president to pardon him. why don't you? i don't. i don't have that power. but you could push for that. you were foreign minister in his administration. no, i don't have the power because for one very simple reason is that the sentencing is not closed. he is still being judged. and that's the law in georgia, that pardon can intervene only when everything is finished. so would you pardon him once everything's finished? that's. .. that's another issue. i've explained at length in georgia why i wouldn't do it, because it's a factor for major polarisation. people have lived under his regime and there is not practically one family in georgia that has not

experienced what it meant to have that type of autocratic regime. so i don't feel that i have to become an instrument for more polarisation. but at the same time, i'm the head of state, where i don't want an ex—president to die in prison or to suffer irremediable consequences. and so i've been very close to monitoring all the medical. and there is, in fact, i was waiting for today that there would be a new conclusion of the international medical team that has been examining him, but it's not yet out. i've been saying publicly in georgia that i think that he should be extradited, or i don't know... ..to be able to receive additional... he's in a hospital since six months. yeah. but that's a decision that has been... ..that has to be taken by the court.

president salome zourabichvili of georgia, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. and thank you very much to you for receiving me. hello, there. over the next few hours, we're going to see some frost and fog forming. it is going to be a chilly start to our monday morning. some of that will be slow to lift away and then, as we go through the day, some wet and windy weather will start to dominate from the south—west. but temperatures could be as low as minus four or minus five degrees in a few spots first thing this morning.

the wet weather, though, starting to show its hand and that will gradually drift its way north and east as we go through the day, not really getting into northern england and scotland, however. gusts of winds in excess of 70 to 80 miles an hour first thing, so a very stormy start to the day in the south—west. some of that rain really torrential as it pushes its way steadily north—east, moving into northern ireland, across parts of wales, the midlands, eventually into south east england and east anglia as we go through the afternoon. that means northern england and the bulk of scotland after that cold, frosty and foggy start will see some sunshine coming through. a few isolated showers and where it's cool to higher ground, some of these could be wintry in flavour. six or seven degrees the high here, top temperatures of 11 celsius perhaps, but it looks likely that we see the cooler air clinging onto the far north of scotland. further south, we'll see a few weak weather fronts and producing some milder, showery weather first thing on tuesday morning.

the showers in the north of scotland still have the tendency perhaps to be of rain, sleet and snow. elsewhere on tuesday, not a bad day — dry with some sunshine coming through, a few scattered showers, temperatures around six to 11 celsius, so on the cool side, really. now, as we move out of tuesday into wednesday, the next batch of wet and windy weather starts to push in from the atlantic, the isobars once again squeezing together, and the rain could be quite heavy at times. this time, it is going to push its way into the north of england and across to scotland, so there will be some more rain potentially for the north—east of scotland, maybe some snow to higher ground here. behind it, we'll see sunny spells and a few scattered showers being driven on along those west coasts. again, those temperatures around nine to 12 celsius. it looks likely that we will see slightly drier weather thursday into friday before more wet and windy weather returns into the weekend.

this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. russian forces step up their shelling of the recently liberated kherson region of ukraine. the city remains without power, following the withdrawal of russian soldiers. russian forces only occupied territory there on the eastern bank of the dnieper river. but this isn't after the big build—up, the 2022 men's football world cup is under way, with england and wales among the teams beginning their bids for glory later.

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