good morning. we are at the beginning of a weird winter. a world cup in the sweltering heat of qatar and back home, the threat of strikes causing trouble everywhere you look. one outcome are all out. llnite causing trouble everywhere you look. one outcome are all out.— one outcome are all out. unite and fiuht! one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where _ one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is— one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is that _ one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is that what _ one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is that what we - one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is that what we are . one outcome are all out. unite and fight! where is that what we are in | fight! where is that what we are in for? nurses on strike. they have chosen strike over listening to our nursing staff. chosen strike over listening to our nursing staff-— nursing staff. train workers too. this round _ nursing staff. train workers too. this round of— nursing staff. train workers too. this round of strikes _ nursing staff. train workers too. this round of strikes will - nursing staff. train workers too. this round of strikes will show i nursing staff. train workers too. i this round of strikes will show how important our members out of the running of the country.— important our members out of the running of the country. teachers and lecturers already _ running of the country. teachers and lecturers already left _ running of the country. teachers and lecturers already left the _ lecturers already left the classroom.— lecturers already left the classroom. ~ . , ., classroom. we have burn-out workloads _ classroom. we have burn-out workloads and _ classroom. we have burn-out workloads and education. - classroom. we have burn-out workloads and education. the classroom. we have burn-out - workloads and education. the system is unsustainable. _ workloads and education. the system is unsustainable. relations _ workloads and education. the system is unsustainable. relations between i is unsustainable. relations between the union and the government are in the union and the government are in the deep freeze. {line

the union and the government are in the deep freeze.— the deep freeze. one of the unions is askin: the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for _ the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for a _ the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for a 1996 _ the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for a 19% pay _ the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for a 1996 pay rise, - the deep freeze. one of the unions is asking for a 1996 pay rise, which l is asking for a 19% pay rise, which is asking for a 19% pay rise, which is obviously unaffordable. thea;r is asking for a 1996 pay rise, which is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling _ is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling with _ is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling with a _ is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling with a cost _ is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling with a cost of - is obviously unaffordable. they are all struggling with a cost of living l all struggling with a cost of living crisis _ all struggling with a cost of living crisis made in downing street. while tensions over _ crisis made in downing street. while tensions over human _ crisis made in downing street. while tensions over human rights - crisis made in downing street. b'u�*u ie: tensions over human rights hot up at the world cup. we have one big question this morning. are we heading to a winter of discontent? can the transport secretary, mark harper, end the chaos on the railways? we'll ask him live. with a whole series of strikes coming, we'll hear from labour's lisa nandy on where her party stands. and here's our crack panel to respond to those interviews and take us through the day's news. maths professor and presenter hannah fry, tory mp and, until not so long ago, chair of the conservative party, jake berry, and the boss of the trade union movement, frances o'grady, the general secretary of the tuc.

hello and good morning. let's start this morning with the front pages. the front page of the express is talking about migrants being housed in forces�* homes. the observer suggests a new trade deal with japan is a blow to brexit because there has been a trade slump, the sunday telegraph talking about long waits in accident and emergency, something we talked about last week. and on the front page of scotland on sunday, a picture of doddie weir in action, the former scottish rugby international turned campaigner across the country for the disease that sadly took his life, motor neurone disease, but someone who created a lot of pride and sadness this weekend as he has finally passed away. welcome to my panel. a huge amount talk about this morning. we are going to talk a lot about

strikes. frances o�*grady, can anything stop these endless train strikes? there is always a deal to be done. it takes goodwill, good faith and people around the table. but it also takes clarity. and i think after grant shapps�*s somewhat macho style of saying it is nothing to do with him, we have had a change of tone from mark harper. but the unions need to know whether the companies have authority to do a deal. we know that every train operating company has a clause in its contract written by the element on dispute handling. but the unions don�*t know what is in it and they don�*t know whether the companies have been empowered to genuinely negotiate the deal. so we are hoping for a letter to the unions from mark harper setting out

and being clear notjust about facilitating the deal, but what the government�*s role in settling is. that is a big decline of a gauntlet being laid down for the transport secretary. you can put that to him in a few minutes. jake berry, do you accept that northern tory voters have been let down by the train services and, frankly, this government? yeah, i know of anti—west coast is so bad _ yeah, i know of anti—west coast is so bad and — yeah, i know of anti—west coast is so bad and i— yeah, i know of anti—west coast is so bad and i keep thinking if matt hancock— so bad and i keep thinking if matt hancock can survive the journey between — hancock can survive the journey between london and manchester on an avanti _ between london and manchester on an avanti train, _ between london and manchester on an avanti train, it is appalling. they used _ avanti train, it is appalling. they used to— avanti train, it is appalling. they used to be — avanti train, it is appalling. they used to be three services an hour and now— used to be three services an hour and now there is one and it is often delayed _ and now there is one and it is often delayed. the rail network in the north_ delayed. the rail network in the north is— delayed. the rail network in the north is a — delayed. the rail network in the north is a mess. what is interesting is that_ north is a mess. what is interesting is that the _

north is a mess. what is interesting is that the government has slightly changed _ is that the government has slightly changed its approach and it gives me -reat changed its approach and it gives me great hope _ changed its approach and it gives me great hope for a settlement. grant shapps— great hope for a settlement. grant shapps had a sort of not me, gov approach — shapps had a sort of not me, gov approach. he refused to get involved directly— approach. he refused to get involved directly in _ approach. he refused to get involved directly in the negotiations. i think— directly in the negotiations. i think that was a mistake and i'm pleased — think that was a mistake and i'm pleased that our new transport secretary — pleased that our new transport secretary mark harper is taking a more _ secretary mark harper is taking a more active role. he has volunteered for the _ more active role. he has volunteered for the rail— more active role. he has volunteered for the rail minister to attend some of the _ for the rail minister to attend some of the talks— for the rail minister to attend some of the talks next week. that gives me hope — of the talks next week. that gives me hope for a settlement. make mick grinch. _ me hope for a settlement. make mick grinch. as— me hope for a settlement. make mick grinch, as we now call him,. us seeing— grinch, as we now call him,. us seeing our— grinch, as we now call him,. us seeing ourfamily grinch, as we now call him,. us seeing our family christmas unless we get _ seeing our family christmas unless we get this sorted out.— we get this sorted out. well, the strikes are _ we get this sorted out. well, the strikes are the _ we get this sorted out. well, the strikes are the symptom, - we get this sorted out. well, the strikes are the symptom, not. we get this sorted out. well, the | strikes are the symptom, not the cause. the cause is about protecting jobs and safety and about people�*s work—life balance, and, of course, having their pay. this is an industry that has made £500 million worth of profit staff quite rightly, who worked through covid, once their fair share. we who worked through covid, once their

fair share. ~ ., , , ., fair share. we have plenty of time to net fair share. we have plenty of time to get into — fair share. we have plenty of time to get into that _ fair share. we have plenty of time to get into that later _ fair share. we have plenty of time to get into that later in _ fair share. we have plenty of time to get into that later in the - to get into that later in the programme. hannah, to introduce you to the audience. hannah fry, your official title is professor in the mathematics of cities. when it comes to transport, does that play into that study? it does. i don't that play into that study? it does. i don't think— that play into that study? it does. i don't think the _ that play into that study? it does. i don't think the maths _ that play into that study? it does. i don't think the maths can - that play into that study? it does. i don't think the maths can solve l i don't think the maths can solve this kind — i don't think the maths can solve this kind of— i don't think the maths can solve this kind of stuff! _ idon't think the maths can solve this kind of stuff! you— i don't think the maths can solve this kind of stuff!— this kind of stuff! you can do the sums on profits _ this kind of stuff! you can do the sums on profits and _ this kind of stuff! you can do the sums on profits and wages. - this kind of stuff! you can do the sums on profits and wages. you | this kind of stuff! you can do the i sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look _ sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look at _ sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look at the _ sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look at the way _ sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look at the way people - sums on profits and wages. you can certainly look at the way people are | certainly look at the way people are using _ certainly look at the way people are using a _ certainly look at the way people are using a train— certainly look at the way people are using a train network— certainly look at the way people are using a train network or— certainly look at the way people are using a train network or a _ certainly look at the way people are using a train network or a tube - using a train network or a tube network— using a train network or a tube network and _ using a train network or a tube network and look _ using a train network or a tube network and look for _ using a train network or a tube - network and look for inefficiencies and vulnerabilities _ network and look for inefficiencies and vulnerabilities and _ network and look for inefficiencies and vulnerabilities and look - network and look for inefficiencies and vulnerabilities and look at - network and look for inefficiencies and vulnerabilities and look at it . and vulnerabilities and look at it from _ and vulnerabilities and look at it from that— and vulnerabilities and look at it from that perspective. - and vulnerabilities and look at it from that perspective. tier?- from that perspective. very interesting, _ from that perspective. very interesting, maybe - from that perspective. very interesting, maybe you - from that perspective. very interesting, maybe you willj from that perspective.“ interesting, maybe you will have tips for mark harper later. and you have been crunching numbers around the world cup, so we will get some mathematical productions for the all—important england—wales game later in the programme. while we�*re on air, as if by magic, the live page on the bbc website is being updated with the most

important bits of the interviews and analysis of what they mean. if you�*re watching and scrolling, head there now or after the show, where i�*ll be scribbling some of my take there too. that�*s at bbc.co.uk/news. it�*s not unreasonable to expect to be able to get from a to b in this country without too much grief. we all know it doesn�*t feel like that, with a series of rail strikes that have dragged on sincejune. the rail union the rmt�*s announced even more days when they�*ll down tools, stretching beyond christmas now. unlike his predecessors grant shapps, the current transport secretary met with rail union chief mick lynch this week, but it didn�*t seem to get them much closer to sorting things out. we need pace. six months, we�*ve been negotiating at least with the train operators, and we�*ve had not one document put across the table. that has to change, and i outlined to him what his responsibilities are as we see them. and his responsibilities

are legally, in the contracts they have with these train operators, he has got a legal responsibility for industrial relations and a responsibility to set their mandate, ie what they can say, what they can offer and what they can negotiate on at that table. the transport secretary, mark harper is here. can you clear up whose job it is to fix this? can you clear up whose 'ob it is to fix this? ., ., ., , ., fix this? the negotiations are absolutely — fix this? the negotiations are absolutely between - fix this? the negotiations are absolutely between the - fix this? the negotiations are absolutely between the trade fix this? the negotiations are - absolutely between the trade unions and the train operating companies and the train operating companies and network rail. i am and the train operating companies and network rail. iam not and the train operating companies and network rail. i am not getting involved in those detailed negotiations. but i do think i have a responsibility to encourage and help the two sides in those negotiations to reach a conclusion so we can modernise the rail system and have reform of the way the workforce operates and have a train network that is properly fit for the zist network that is properly fit for the 21st century. it�*s network that is properly fit for the 21st century-— 21st century. it's a bit more than that, secretary _ 21st century. it's a bit more than that, secretary of _ 21st century. it's a bit more than that, secretary of state. - 21st century. it's a bit more than that, secretary of state. you - 21st century. it's a bit more than i that, secretary of state. you have 21st century. it's a bit more than . that, secretary of state. you have a responsibility for holding the purse

strings and for setting the parameters for the negotiations. the mandate that frances o�*grady was talking about. mandate that frances o'grady was talking about-— talking about. there is a lot of taxoayers _ talking about. there is a lot of taxpayers' money _ talking about. there is a lot of taxpayers' money that - talking about. there is a lot of taxpayers' money that goes i talking about. there is a lot of. taxpayers' money that goes into talking about. there is a lot of- taxpayers' money that goes into the taxpayers�* money that goes into the rail network, clearly. but this dispute is different from some of the other ones you mentioned. and these talks have been going on for some time. we are trying to modernise how the workforce operates and the detail of how those rail companies operate. if we can get that agreement between the trade unions and the companies, the detailed negotiations hammered out, that frees up financial savings and then that money can be shared between the taxpayer and the workers and there will be a discussion to be had about the balance of that, but it�*s getting those reforms agreed that frees up some resources and then that will enable the train operating companies to make a pay offer to those who work in the industry. offer to those who work in the indust . . , offer to those who work in the indust . ., , i. offer to those who work in the indust . ., , ., , ., offer to those who work in the indust. ., ., , ., ., industry. that is your ambition for what should _ industry. that is your ambition for what should happen, _ industry. that is your ambition for what should happen, but - industry. that is your ambition for what should happen, but there . industry. that is your ambition for what should happen, but there is| industry. that is your ambition for| what should happen, but there is a question about how that could

happen. we havejust heard question about how that could happen. we have just heard from frances o�*grady and the rmt union have been saying that too. they feel the train operators have not been able to make offers to them because the government hasn�*t given them the flexibility to do so. do you dispute that? i flexibility to do so. do you dispute that? ., �* , ., ., , that? i haven't blogged anything. did our that? i haven't blogged anything. did your predecessor _ that? i haven't blogged anything. did your predecessor block - that? i haven't blogged anything. - did your predecessor block anything? you need the reforms agreed because it is the reforms being agreed that free up the savings that can then be used to make a pay offer. both of those things have to happen in parallel. there has been quite a lot of progress made, to be fair. the trade unions have negotiated with the train operating companies and network rail. a lot of work has been done. i want to work with both sides to get that over the line on behalf of the public and the taxpayer. but as the secretary of state, will you give the companies flexibility to have a proper back and forth? that is what has to happen, you have to

budge the companies can budge. haste budge the companies can budge. - have to agree on a set of reforms. it is the reforms that free up the savings that unlock the ability for the companies to make an offer to the companies to make an offer to the trade unions on pay. those things have to happen in parallel. so the reason i met mick lynch and one of the other union leaders this week, frank ward, and i�*m going to the others, is to facilitate that process and encourage both sides to hammer out that deal to reach a solution for passengers. when you talk to jake about the experiences of passengers, i have two responsibilities. one is to those who use the rail service, and i also have responsibility to the taxpayer. that is the responsibility that you feel, but in terms of actually getting the strikes called off, one of the union bosses from aslef said

this is a political dispute because the government has not allowed the chain negotiating companies to put an offer in. is that true?— an offer in. is that true? there has been ulster— an offer in. is that true? there has been ulster negotiation _ an offer in. is that true? there has been ulster negotiation already . an offer in. is that true? there has been ulster negotiation already onj been ulster negotiation already on the detail. we have to lock down that reform package, because it is only the savings that allow the payoff. 50 only the savings that allow the .a off. ,., only the savings that allow the .a off. ., only the savings that allow the -a off. i. ., only the savings that allow the .a off. ., ., only the savings that allow the na off. ., ., ., payoff. so you are saying no more money unless _ payoff. so you are saying no more money unless there _ payoff. so you are saying no more money unless there are _ payoff. so you are saying no more money unless there are reforms? | payoff. so you are saying no more i money unless there are reforms? we have money unless there are reforms? - have got to have reforms. 20% of passengers have not come back to the rail system post—covid, which means the system isn�*t financially sustainable as it is. we also have to have a more flexible railway. part of the issues that jake was talking about on avanti west coast is to do with driver shortage, but also to do with the fact that we don�*t have a proper seven—day railway. we have days of the week when train services are completely dependent on the goodwill of people coming to work on their day off. that is not how you run a modern railway that people depend on. but

there is great variation. in the north of england, it is a different thing. we hear your quid north of england, it is a different thing. we hearyour quid pro north of england, it is a different thing. we hear your quid pro quo. there could be more cash if there is reform that says that cash, but on the specific question, are you going to give the train operators flexibility to do a deal? are you going to change the mandate, which is the technical term for what you are asking them to do? the is the technical term for what you are asking them to do?— are asking them to do? the train 0 eratin: are asking them to do? the train operating companies _ are asking them to do? the train operating companies and - are asking them to do? the train l operating companies and network are asking them to do? the train - operating companies and network rail will have the ability to reach a deal, but we have to be able to have that reform package negotiated because it is only that that throws up because it is only that that throws up the savings. i do not have a bottomless pit of taxpayers�* money to throw at this problem. that would be the wrong thing to do. your viewers are well aware of the massive challenge facing the country. i disagree with one of the bits in your opening titles. this challenge we are facing is made in

russia. it is to do with a massive challenge facing the country from the huge amount of extra money we are having to pay for energy. that is our are having to pay for energy. that is your government _ are having to pay for energy. that is your government is _ are having to pay for energy. that is your government is max argument. but from what you have been saying this morning, it sounded like a hint that you might change the mandate and give the train operators more flexibility. but although you have come in with a different tone to your predecessor at the transport department, it sounds like you are not willing to budge that far to get these strikes called off.— these strikes called off. well, it is a negotiation, _ these strikes called off. well, it is a negotiation, which - these strikes called off. well, it is a negotiation, which francesl these strikes called off. well, it. is a negotiation, which frances laid out clearly. and it is about looking down some details of reforms which then frees up the resources. then there will be a sensible discussion between the unions and employers about how you fairly tribute that between the people who work in the industry, though i accept that they were key workers who kept the industry going during the pandemic. by industry going during the pandemic. by the way, the taxpayer did their side as well. we put £16 billion into the rail industry. £160,000 per

rail worker, and that was a deal. i want to try and get a deal to stop these damaging strikes, which are only going to put people off using the railways and damage the long—term future of the industry. i would like better be a resolution of the dispute and i would like the strikes to be called off. they are going to hit families and the hospitality industry, and want to protect those. there were serious problems with transport in the country before the strikes and before the pandemic. let�*s take a look at the state of some of it. viewers have been getting in touch. this is a travel story from emily, living near manchester. i believe we can hopefully look at what she has to say. i am a new mum back at work and i can no longer rely on the trains. severely reduced and always has huge delays. i risk not being able to pick up my baby from nursery in the

evening. what is the plan to sort out trains in the north? quite separately from strikes. i mentioned the services — separately from strikes. i mentioned the services delivering _ separately from strikes. i mentioned the services delivering full _ the services delivering full services. a big driver shortage partly exacerbated by lack of training in the pandemic. we are working very closely with both of the train operating companies to get more drivers trained in the new timetable is coming into place in december will hopefully see better services that people can rely on. fundamentally, this comes back to reform. part of the problem, the reason why services have been so reliable, they depend on goodwill and they depend on people working on days off. that is not a way of a sustainable system. what emily needs is a train service that has frequent services that she can rely on. this is a massive _ services that she can rely on. this is a massive problem. notjust about emily. hundreds of thousands of trains were cancelled last year, 860 on average a day from the watchdog, the statistics. if i am a passenger especially in the north of england,

how am i supposed to get around? you can sit here and say, we have to have reform. your party has been in charge of this for 12 years. i have reform. your party has been in charge of this for 12 years.- charge of this for 12 years. i agree there is a problem. _ charge of this for 12 years. i agree there is a problem. do _ charge of this for 12 years. i agree there is a problem. do you - charge of this for 12 years. i agree there is a problem. do you accept| charge of this for 12 years. i agree i there is a problem. do you accept it has not there is a problem. do you accept it has got worse? _ there is a problem. do you accept it has got worse? i — there is a problem. do you accept it has got worse? i am _ there is a problem. do you accept it has got worse? i am determined . there is a problem. do you accept it has got worse? i am determined to | has got worse? i am determined to deliver the reform _ has got worse? i am determined to deliver the reform to _ has got worse? i am determined to deliver the reform to the _ has got worse? i am determined to deliver the reform to the way - has got worse? i am determined to deliver the reform to the way the l deliver the reform to the way the rail workforce operates, i want to make sure the benefits of that are shared fairly between the taxpayer and the people working in the industry. and the people working in the indust . ~ . and the people working in the indust .~ ., ., , ., ., industry. what does it mean to travellers _ industry. what does it mean to travellers who _ industry. what does it mean to travellers who right _ industry. what does it mean to travellers who right now - industry. what does it mean to travellers who right now feel . industry. what does it mean to i travellers who right now feel they cannot get to work, cannot go away at the weekend, cannot rely on a service that should be there for them that the taxpayers have poured millions into?— millions into? more drivers will be trained, millions into? more drivers will be trained. proper — millions into? more drivers will be trained, proper seven _ millions into? more drivers will be trained, proper seven day - millions into? more drivers will be trained, proper seven day railway. j trained, proper seven day railway. from one? by, trained, proper seven day railway. from one?— trained, proper seven day railway. from one? �* ., , from one? a timetable that can be counted upon- _ from one? a timetable that can be counted upon. we _ from one? a timetable that can be counted upon. we will _ from one? a timetable that can be counted upon. we will not - from one? a timetable that can be counted upon. we will not change | from one? a timetable that can be| counted upon. we will not change it overnight. but are we making progress? yes, we are, iam determined to do it because the only thing that will work for passengers and people in the industry is a reliable service to see more

passengers coming back to the railway. if the 20% of people that used to use the railway never come back, we will not have as many services as we have now. i want to grow the railway, have a successful railway. fin grow the railway, have a successful railwa . ., ., , , . . , railway. on one of the specifics, jake and emily _ railway. on one of the specifics, jake and emily mentioned - railway. on one of the specifics, jake and emily mentioned it, i railway. on one of the specifics, - jake and emily mentioned it, service between manchester, used to be three an hour, now it is one, can you tell people the services will come back? one of the things they new timetables will have is an increase in services and i want them to be services people can count on. it was also by the way very important in the autumn statement at my capital budget and my budget i have for... will services be restored and the specific one? back to three? more services available _ specific one? back to three? more services available in _ specific one? back to three? more services available in the _ specific one? back to three? ire services available in the timetable than set out, in december, avanti, and if we can modernise the railways in terms of the workforce reform, they will be timetables people can

count on to do the everyday lives as emily was saying. d0 count on to do the everyday lives as emily was saying-— emily was saying. do you think --eole emily was saying. do you think people have — emily was saying. do you think people have to _ emily was saying. do you think people have to get _ emily was saying. do you think people have to get used - emily was saying. do you think people have to get used to - emily was saying. do you think. people have to get used to having fewer services, people have to get used to having fewerservices, but people have to get used to having fewer services, but if they are reliable, would it be better to have fewer services people can count on? services people can count on is clearly what we want but we want to increase the level of services available. that is why we are investing in new railways, maintaining the ones we have got, but we also need to modernise the way the workforce operate. so then we can have services people can count on and a great railway. fine we can have services people can count on and a great railway. one of the thins count on and a great railway. one of the things that _ count on and a great railway. one of the things that is _ count on and a great railway. one of the things that is maybe _ count on and a great railway. one of the things that is maybe not - the things that is maybe not discussed very much in westminster but matters to people around the country, the level of bus services. examples all around the country of bus services being cut in your constituency and problems going on there, why are things getting worse? the last decade, britain�*s bus services has lost miles of services, it is getting worse on your watch.

94% ofjourneys people make every day are on the roads, in cars or buses. i am going to make sure when we look at our budgets that we take that into account. we have had issues with buses, exacerbated, like trains, by the pandemic. we have seen something like a third of bus passengers no longer using buses. a real impact particularly in rural areas. i have similar issues in services not viable, as he said. the government stepped in to provide a grant to help operators with the challenges of covid, we extended it until the end of march next year. we will look at what more we need to do. we are also looking at the ways of delivering services particularly in rural areas, pilots on demand responsive transport, more flexible services that respond to where people actually want to use them. i think we need to try some of those things. i am very conscious for people who do not have cars in rural areas particularly, they need to be

able to get to work, get to all the important things they need to do, hospital appointments, and i am conscious we need to reorganise how we deliver that. imilli conscious we need to reorganise how we deliver that.— we deliver that. will you commit to increasin: we deliver that. will you commit to increasing the _ we deliver that. will you commit to increasing the number— we deliver that. will you commit to increasing the number of _ we deliver that. will you commit to increasing the number of services | increasing the number of services available for people? i increasing the number of services available for people?— increasing the number of services available for people? i want to make sure people — available for people? i want to make sure people have _ available for people? i want to make sure people have the _ available for people? i want to make sure people have the services - available for people? i want to make sure people have the services they l sure people have the services they need. ., ., , ., sure people have the services they need. ., .,, ., , sure people have the services they need. ., ., , , ., | need. that was not my question. i want to make _ need. that was not my question. i want to make sure _ need. that was not my question. i want to make sure people - need. that was not my question. i want to make sure people have i need. that was not my question. i | want to make sure people have the services they need and also we have to get people back using buses again because all the commercial services that operate, the ones that do not require subsidy from local councils, those depend on a certain number of people using them. if people do not use them, a lot of the services are not sustainable. that is one of the challenges. what is happening on the railways with the strikes is in the context of multiple disputes in multiple industries, nurses, teachers in scotland, junior doctors balloting to go on strike and strikes in the private sector as well, university lecturers out this week, that kind of level of unrest, does it give the viewers an

impression of a country being well run? what it gives you the impression is we face big economic challenges. we have seen inflation rise, largely made in russia to do with the big spike in energy prices and of course the economy globally getting back on track after the pandemic. getting back on track after the pandemic-— getting back on track after the andemic. , ,., , �*, pandemic. this is about people's waters. pandemic. this is about people's wagers- itut _ pandemic. this is about people's wagers. but the reason - pandemic. this is about people's wagers. but the reason why - pandemic. this is about people's i wagers. but the reason why people are dissatisfied _ wagers. but the reason why people are dissatisfied with _ wagers. but the reason why people are dissatisfied with wages - wagers. but the reason why people are dissatisfied with wages is - are dissatisfied with wages is because inflation is very high, the most important thing the government can do which is why the chancellor set out the measures he did in the autumn statement, it is to get inflation under control. that is at the root cause of a lot of the industrial unrest. but the root cause of a lot of the industrial unrest.— the root cause of a lot of the industrial unrest. but why should ublic industrial unrest. but why should public sector _ industrial unrest. but why should public sector workers _ industrial unrest. but why should public sector workers accept - industrial unrest. but why should i public sector workers accept getting poorer? that is what is happening here. we poorer? that is what is happening here. ~ . ~ poorer? that is what is happening here. ~ ., . ., poorer? that is what is happening here. . ., . ., ., poorer? that is what is happening here. ., . ., ., ., . here. we have... we have to balance what is affordable, _ here. we have... we have to balance what is affordable, for _ here. we have... we have to balance what is affordable, for example, - here. we have... we have to balance what is affordable, for example, why j what is affordable, for example, why in the health service we have accepted the recommendations of the independent pay review body which would give for example i think a

nurse at least £1400 pay rise this year. that is why nurses got 3% rise last year when the general public sector had a pay freeze. 19% pay rise simply is not affordable. hang on. we rise simply is not affordable. hang on- we have _ rise simply is not affordable. hang on. we have to _ rise simply is not affordable. hang on. we have to balance _ rise simply is not affordable. hang on. we have to balance what - rise simply is not affordable. hang on. we have to balance what is i on. we have to balance what is affordable. _ on. we have to balance what is affordable, difficult _ on. we have to balance what is affordable, difficult decisions l on. we have to balance what is. affordable, difficult decisions we have to make to keep the public finances under control, and a perfectly reasonable request people have got to keep up with the cost of living. i accept people are not going to be able to have what they want. . , going to be able to have what they want. ., ,,. ._ going to be able to have what they want. ., ,,. ., , ., going to be able to have what they want. . , ,,. ., , ., ,, ., want. except, secretary of state, barristers went _ want. except, secretary of state, barristers went out _ want. except, secretary of state, barristers went out on _ want. except, secretary of state, barristers went out on strike - want. except, secretary of state, barristers went out on strike and | barristers went out on strike and they got a pay rise of 15%, so why is it fair for barristers to get 15% from a government deal and nurses to be told, no wait, cannot afford it? i am not going to get into the detail of individual cases, there is some complexity around the barristers about history and what they are offering for the money. i think nurses would say there is history too. figures suggest in real terms a nurse right now is thousands

of pounds less well off in real terms than in 2010.— of pounds less well off in real terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors — terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors and _ terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors and nurses, _ terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors and nurses, there - terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors and nurses, there is i terms than in 2010. health workers like doctors and nurses, there is anj like doctors and nurses, there is an independent pay review body which takes evidence from the government and also from the profession, evidence from users of the services, and it makes recommendations about what it thinks is a fair pay rise. it did that in the case of the health service and the government accepted all of the recommendations in full and that is what we have offered. ii in full and that is what we have offered. , ., ., , offered. if you were a nurse, teacher. _ offered. if you were a nurse, teacher, hospital— offered. if you were a nurse, teacher, hospital porter, i offered. if you were a nurse, i teacher, hospital porter, anyone else in the public sector this morning listening and thinking, i hear the minister telling me there is no more money because the country is no more money because the country is strapped for cash, actually, i think i might go and do something else. what would your advice be? i would urge them not to do that. i would urge them not to do that. i would say, what we are trying to do is to get inflation under control, to drive it down. that is the best thing we can do. the to drive it down. that is the best thing we can do.— to drive it down. that is the best thing we can do. the best thing for them and their— thing we can do. the best thing for them and their family _ thing we can do. the best thing for them and their family might - thing we can do. the best thing for them and their family might be i

thing we can do. the best thing for them and their family might be to | thing we can do. the best thing for. them and their family might be to do them and theirfamily might be to do something else. what if someone thinks, i cannot pay my bills if i stay in thisjob? thinks, i cannot pay my bills if i stay in this job?— thinks, i cannot pay my bills if i stay in this job? stay in this “ob? one of the things we have stay in this job? one of the things we have done... _ stay in this job? one of the things we have done... we _ stay in this job? one of the things we have done... we are _ stay in this job? one of the things we have done... we are trying i stay in this job? one of the things we have done... we are trying to | we have done... we are trying to give people the support they need for energy prices, for example. one of the big challenges those families will have is to pay energy bills. that is what the government spending £100 billion of taxpayers�* money this year and next to give families a considerable amount of support to help with energy bills. that will be one of the biggest things that has gone up between last year and this year. it is not only that people are having to look at what they are getting in their pay packet, they also a significant amount of help from the taxpayer to help with one of the biggest bills but this year and next year to give them confidence to plan their finances. i accept, given the level of inflation, people are still going to find it very difficult and the government is doing what it can. difficult, no question. but without caettin difficult, no question. but without getting inflation _ difficult, no question. but without getting inflation out _ difficult, no question. but without getting inflation out of— difficult, no question. but without getting inflation out of control. i getting inflation out of control. the most important thing is we get

inflation under control and that will put us on the right path for a sustainable economic future. almost out of time. — sustainable economic future. almost out oftime. as— sustainable economic future. almost out of time, as you _ sustainable economic future. almost out of time, as you accept _ sustainable economic future. almost out of time, as you accept it - sustainable economic future. almost out of time, as you accept it will- out of time, as you accept it will be a difficult time for lots of families and people watching, quite a difficult time are ready for the new government, that you are part of. you have tory rebels trying to kill off the housing plans, other tory rebels trying to force rishi sunak to think again on onshore wind, including a couple of former prime ministers, tory mps say they will not stand at the next election. do you think people will be looking think it it is a group of people who know how to win an election, a government in control? acceptance are not easy _ government in control? acceptance are not easy at _ government in control? acceptance are not easy at the _ government in control? acceptance are not easy at the moment, i i government in control? acceptance| are not easy at the moment, i don't are not easy at the moment, i don�*t think the feminist thought things would be easy when he was campaigning at the moment —— i don�*t think the prime minister thought. international events which are also faced by every other country in the world. �* , ., faced by every other country in the world. �* ,., i. faced by every other country in the world. �* i. ., faced by every other country in the world. �* ., , ., ., world. and some you have brought on yourselves- — world. and some you have brought on yourselves- i— world. and some you have brought on yourselves. i think _ world. and some you have brought on yourselves. i think what _ world. and some you have brought on yourselves. i think what they - world. and some you have brought on yourselves. i think what they want i yourselves. i think what they want is a government _ yourselves. i think what they want is a government that _ yourselves. i think what they want is a government that equips i yourselves. i think what they want| is a government that equips them, honest and straightforward with

people about the challenges we face, the choices, and lays out to people with some level of honesty decisions we have made and where we can reasonably expect to get to —— grips them. if we can do that sustainably, that people will look at the government and think they know what they are doing and i am confident they are doing and i am confident the future will look brighter and they will give us that confidence again when we ask them to place our trust in us at the next election. lastly, curiously, labourwants to help you out with one of the things going on, they are offering to vote with you on the housing plan, do you accept that kind offer? thea;r with you on the housing plan, do you accept that kind offer?— accept that kind offer? they are not really trying — accept that kind offer? they are not really trying to _ accept that kind offer? they are not really trying to help _ accept that kind offer? they are not really trying to help us _ accept that kind offer? they are not really trying to help us out. - really trying to help us out. michael gove will be talking to colleagues and listening to a range of opinions and i am sure he will reach the white conclusion on his very important levelling up bill. great to have you in the studio, thank you. —— the right conclusion. did we manage to untangle anything of whosejob it did we manage to untangle anything of whose job it really is to try to

get the train strikes result? let�*s ask frances o�*grady who threw the gauntlet down to the transport secretary and to me to try to get a straight answer. any clearer about who is in the driving street? brute straight answer. any clearer about who is in the driving street? we are seeinu this who is in the driving street? we are seeing this across _ who is in the driving street? we are seeing this across the _ who is in the driving street? we are seeing this across the piece - who is in the driving street? we are seeing this across the piece with i seeing this across the piece with the government pointing the finger, at independent review bodies, train operating bodies, but it feels like the government is pulling the strings and that is what the rail industry tells us. there was some reassurance there, but we will see what happens on monday and whether or not the rail unions get the letter and what is in the letter. but there has to be some recognition that, as mark harper said himself, it is about political choices. we have seen the cap lifted on bankers bonuses, but nurses�* pay is driven down. we could give every public servant in this country and inflation proof pay rise, if we

equalised capital gains tax on selling shares and second homes. with income tax. that would raise enough money. these are political choices and the government has to be clear whose side it is on, working people are struggling. abs, clear whose side it is on, working people are struggling.— people are struggling. a little bit sce tical people are struggling. a little bit sceptical listening _ people are struggling. a little bit sceptical listening to _ people are struggling. a little bit sceptical listening to frances i sceptical listening to frances o�*grady with what might sound like an easy solution. o'grady with what might sound like an easy solution.— an easy solution. really hard 'ob mark harperfi an easy solution. really hard 'ob mark harper has. i an easy solution. really hard 'ob mark harper has. going i an easy solution. really hard 'ob mark harper has. going into i an easy solution. really hard job mark harper has. going into the | mark harper has. going into the detail— mark harper has. going into the detail and — mark harper has. going into the detail and actually the detail is quite _ detail and actually the detail is quite dull. much easier if you are a trade _ quite dull. much easier if you are a trade union— quite dull. much easier if you are a trade union leader to say, our members _ trade union leader to say, our members want a pay rise, feeling the pinch _ pinch. a lot of the points he was making about how we have to have reform _ making about how we have to have reform is _ making about how we have to have reform is really important, it is how— reform is really important, it is how you — reform is really important, it is how you do _ reform is really important, it is how you do enable people to get a pay rise _ how you do enable people to get a pay rise. my general view on tax, highestm — pay rise. my general view on tax, highest... pantomime season. it is possible _ highest... pantomime season. it is possible to — highest... pantomime season. it is possible to kill the goose that lays the golden egg and if we keep

pushing — the golden egg and if we keep pushing wealth creators, we live in a global— pushing wealth creators, we live in a global economy, and i do think we have already seen changes in decisions _ have already seen changes in decisions because of new tax rises, shall— decisions because of new tax rises, shall ditched an investment in the uk because of the windfall tax, if you put— uk because of the windfall tax, if you put up— uk because of the windfall tax, if you put up taxes... else uk because of the windfall tax, if you put up taxes. . ._ you put up taxes... else to shareholders _ you put up taxes... else to shareholders has - you put up taxes... else to shareholders has risen i you put up taxes... else to i shareholders has risen higher you put up taxes... else to - shareholders has risen higher than wages, something has gone wrong. we are seeing more wealth go to the top and ordinary working families are not able to heat their homes and give their children a proper start in life. i also have to disagree with you about the fact the detail is dull. �* , ., with you about the fact the detail is dull. �* ,, ~' ., ~ with you about the fact the detail is dull. �* i. ~ ., ~ ., is dull. but you know, i think what was really noticeable _ is dull. but you know, i think what was really noticeable was - is dull. but you know, i think what was really noticeable was he i is dull. but you know, i think what was really noticeable was he was i was really noticeable was he was talking _ was really noticeable was he was talking about _ was really noticeable was he was talking about how— was really noticeable was he was talking about how this _ was really noticeable was he was talking about how this is - was really noticeable was he was talking about how this is an - talking about how this is an economic— talking about how this is an economic crisis— talking about how this is an economic crisis started i talking about how this is an economic crisis started in l talking about how this is an - economic crisis started in russia. of course, — economic crisis started in russia. of course, the _ economic crisis started in russia. of course, the russian _ economic crisis started in russia. of course, the russian crisis i economic crisis started in russia. of course, the russian crisis hasl of course, the russian crisis has exacerbated _ of course, the russian crisis has exacerbated things, _ of course, the russian crisis has exacerbated things, but - of course, the russian crisis has exacerbated things, but we - of course, the russian crisis hasi exacerbated things, but we were existing — exacerbated things, but we were existing in — exacerbated things, but we were existing in a _ exacerbated things, but we were existing in a system _ exacerbated things, but we were existing in a system so -

exacerbated things, but we were existing in a system so fragile i exacerbated things, but we were i existing in a system so fragile that one shock— existing in a system so fragile that one shock like _ existing in a system so fragile that one shock like that _ existing in a system so fragile that one shock like that and _ existing in a system so fragile that one shock like that and everything| one shock like that and everything completely— one shock like that and everything completely falls _ one shock like that and everything completely falls apart. _ one shock like that and everything completely falls apart. it - one shock like that and everything completely falls apart. it goes - one shock like that and everything| completely falls apart. it goes back much _ completely falls apart. it goes back much tonger~ — completely falls apart. it goes back much longer. a&e _ completely falls apart. it goes back much longer. a&e waiting - completely falls apart. it goes back much longer. a&e waiting list, - much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, — much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, all_ much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, all of— much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, all of these _ much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, all of these things. - much longer. a&e waiting list, nurses, all of these things. i. nurses, all of these things. i agree, — nurses, all of these things. i agree, i_ nurses, all of these things. i agree, i think— nurses, all of these things. i agree, i think it— nurses, all of these things. i agree, i think it is— nurses, all of these things. i agree, i think it is about - agree, i think it is about prioritising _ agree, i think it is about prioritising and - agree, i think it is about prioritising and working i agree, i think it is about. prioritising and working out agree, i think it is about - prioritising and working out what kind of— prioritising and working out what kind of country— prioritising and working out what kind of country we _ prioritising and working out what kind of country we want - prioritising and working out what kind of country we want to - prioritising and working out what kind of country we want to live . prioritising and working out whati kind of country we want to live in. do you _ kind of country we want to live in. do you want — kind of country we want to live in. do you want to _ kind of country we want to live in. do you want to come _ kind of country we want to live in. do you want to come in? - kind of country we want to live in. do you want to come in? [it’s - kind of country we want to live in. do you want to come in?— do you want to come in? it's a olitical do you want to come in? it's a political problem _ do you want to come in? it's a political problem for _ do you want to come in? it's a political problem for the - political problem for the government. i am political problem for the government. iam interested, i'm a politician, _ government. iam interested, i'm a politician, but i think the general public, _ politician, but i think the general public, thinking about working practices — public, thinking about working practices and whether people can be compelled to work at the weekend, i 'ust compelled to work at the weekend, i just dont— compelled to work at the weekend, i just don't think that is particularly interesting. it is if ou are particularly interesting. it is if you are one — particularly interesting. it is if you are one of— particularly interesting. it is if you are one of those - particularly interesting. it is if you are one of those working | particularly interesting. it is if- you are one of those working people! the real problem the government has is that— the real problem the government has is that this _ the real problem the government has is that this plays into a wider argument about competence. so actuatty. _ argument about competence. so actually, what people care about is if the _ actually, what people care about is if the train — actually, what people care about is if the train runs on time, can i see my if the train runs on time, can i see rny toved — if the train runs on time, can i see my loved ones at christmas? and whatever— my loved ones at christmas? and whatever the rights or wrongs, the danger— whatever the rights or wrongs, the

danger is _ whatever the rights or wrongs, the danger is that if the government toses _ danger is that if the government loses that argument, you lose the public _ loses that argument, you lose the public 00— loses that argument, you lose the ublic. ,, loses that argument, you lose the ublic. , ., ~' loses that argument, you lose the ublic. ~' loses that argument, you lose the -ublic. ~ . , public. do you think your colleagues in government _ public. do you think your colleagues in government look _ public. do you think your colleagues in government look incompetent - public. do you think your colleagues i in government look incompetent right now to the public?— now to the public? well, i think we are in challenging _ now to the public? well, i think we are in challenging times. _ now to the public? well, i think we are in challenging times. that - now to the public? well, i think we are in challenging times. that is i now to the public? well, i think we are in challenging times. that is a l are in challenging times. that is a very polite — are in challenging times. that is a very polite way — are in challenging times. that is a very polite way of _ are in challenging times. that is a very polite way of putting - are in challenging times. that is a very polite way of putting it. - are in challenging times. that is a very polite way of putting it. let'sj very polite way of putting it. let's look at the papers this morning. there is a lot of conservative discontent. rishi sunak has not been around for long, although obviously around for long, although obviously a long time as chancellor. the telegraph are reporting that michael gove disagrees with the prime minister on the ban on onshore wind farms. while in the sunday times, robert colville, this could be the tip of the iceberg for divisions in the conservative party. he is making the case that lots of people think the game is up for your party. i people think the game is up for your -a . ~' people think the game is up for your .a _ ~' , people think the game is up for your .a _ ~ , ., people think the game is up for your party. i think he is wrong. picking u . party. i think he is wrong. picking u- first party. i think he is wrong. picking up first on — party. i think he is wrong. picking up first on the — party. i think he is wrong. picking up first on the michael— party. i think he is wrong. picking up first on the michael gove - party. i think he is wrong. picking | up first on the michael gove point, ithink— up first on the michael gove point, i think that — up first on the michael gove point, i think that spells real danger for my government. the minute you see

cabinet _ my government. the minute you see cabinet discipline breakdown, we knew _ cabinet discipline breakdown, we knew it _ cabinet discipline breakdown, we knew it was over with the liz truss government — knew it was over with the liz truss government when we lost cabinet collective — government when we lost cabinet collective responsibility. this is the first— collective responsibility. this is the first crack in the world for michaet— the first crack in the world for michael gove. he has got a bit of form _ michael gove. he has got a bit of form on — michael gove. he has got a bit of form on this, i might add. boris johnson — form on this, i might add. boris johnson used to cold wind farms the white _ johnson used to cold wind farms the white satanic mills when they were buitding _ white satanic mills when they were building them over my constituency. he has— building them over my constituency. he has changed his mind. i have changed — he has changed his mind. i have changed my mind and i will be supporting simon clarke. so changed my mind and i will be supporting simon clarke. so you will also no for supporting simon clarke. so you will also go for onshore? _ supporting simon clarke. so you will also go for onshore? if— supporting simon clarke. so you will also go for onshore? if you - supporting simon clarke. so you will also go for onshore? if you want - supporting simon clarke. so you will also go for onshore? if you want to i also go for onshore? if you want to know why we _ also go for onshore? if you want to know why we should _ also go for onshore? if you want to know why we should have - also go for onshore? if you want to know why we should have more - know why we should have more renewables, just look at your gas or electricity— renewables, just look at your gas or electricity bill, it is simple. look at your— electricity bill, it is simple. look at your bill— electricity bill, it is simple. look at your bill when it arrives. more widely— at your bill when it arrives. more widely on— at your bill when it arrives. more widely on colleagues' morale, i do think— widely on colleagues' morale, i do think the _ widely on colleagues' morale, i do think the government has a narrow window— think the government has a narrow window to— think the government has a narrow window to grip some of these issues and prove _ window to grip some of these issues and prove that we are competent to the british— and prove that we are competent to the british public. if we do that, i can see _ the british public. if we do that, i can see a — the british public. if we do that, i can see a path to victory, including keeping _ can see a path to victory, including keeping many of those red wall districts — keeping many of those red wall districts. ., _ , . districts. you did say there is a narrow window. _

districts. you did say there is a narrow window. there - districts. you did say there is a narrow window. there are - districts. you did say there is a narrow window. there are only| districts. you did say there is a - narrow window. there are only really 18 months until _ narrow window. there are only really 18 months until the _ narrow window. there are only really 18 months until the next _ narrow window. there are only really 18 months until the next general - 18 months until the next general election — 18 months until the next general election. as you know, laura, is a seasoned — election. as you know, laura, is a seasoned politicaljournalist, in the last— seasoned politicaljournalist, in the last 12 months, no one is really listening. _ the last 12 months, no one is really listening, it's all about the election— listening, it's all about the election campaign, so we have six months _ election campaign, so we have six months to— election campaign, so we have six months to get this right. and election campaign, so we have six months to get this right.— months to get this right. and you wrote this week _ months to get this right. and you wrote this week that _ months to get this right. and you wrote this week that you - months to get this right. and you wrote this week that you have - months to get this right. and you wrote this week that you have to | wrote this week that you have to prove to the younger generation that they can have their dream of owning their own home. do you feel your party is offering very much to people who can't get on the housing ladder, people under 40? the polls suggest at the moment, almost no one in the country who is under 45 is listening to your party at all. i listening to your party at all. i wrote that in the telegraph this week _ wrote that in the telegraph this week if— wrote that in the telegraph this week. if you days passed and i haven't — week. if you days passed and i haven't changed my mind yet. i do think— haven't changed my mind yet. i do think we _ haven't changed my mind yet. i do think we need to improve our offer to young _ think we need to improve our offer to young people. as conservatives, if you _ to young people. as conservatives, if you are _ to young people. as conservatives, if you are selling the idea of capitalism is the best system to drive _ capitalism is the best system to drive wealth in this country and improve — drive wealth in this country and improve your own life and family's tenses. _ improve your own life and family's tenses. you — improve your own life and family's tenses, you need to show how people can capitat— tenses, you need to show how people can capital in our economy, whether that is— can capital in our economy, whether that is owning shares, which very few people do. for most people, the capital— few people do. for most people, the capital you _ few people do. for most people, the capital you have as a stake in our

economy— capital you have as a stake in our economy is— capital you have as a stake in our economy is owning your own home, and if that— economy is owning your own home, and if that slips _ economy is owning your own home, and if that slips from the grasp of an entire _ if that slips from the grasp of an entire generation of young people, with people are now expected to rent, _ with people are now expected to rent, particularly in london come into their— rent, particularly in london come into their forties, it is very hard to persuade them to vote conservative.— to persuade them to vote conservative. , . , conservative. there is a bigger -icture conservative. there is a bigger picture too- — conservative. there is a bigger picture too. we _ conservative. there is a bigger picture too. we have _ conservative. there is a bigger picture too. we have all - conservative. there is a bigger picture too. we have all seen i conservative. there is a bigger. picture too. we have all seen that we have had conservative rule for 12 years in britain is bottom of the league on growth, on investment, on living standards for working people, with working people facing another two years of real hit in their living standards. one in three public servants actively considering quitting the job. public servants actively considering quitting thejob. nurses in tears because they are working 14 hour shifts with no relief, looking after far too many elderly and dependent people at once and feeling that weight of responsibility. it feels incredibly patronising for it to be suggested that a predominantly female profession somehow can get by

on another wage cut when they are £5,000 worse off in real terms than in 2010. i £5,000 worse off in real terms than in 2010. ., , £5,000 worse off in real terms than in 2010. .,, i. ., ., in 2010. i hope you are not suggesting _ in 2010. i hope you are not suggesting that _ in 2010. i hope you are not suggesting that i _ in 2010. i hope you are not suggesting that i have - in 2010. i hope you are not. suggesting that i have made in 2010. i hope you are not - suggesting that i have made that suggestion, because i haven't. well, the tone from _ suggestion, because i haven't. well, the tone from government _ suggestion, because i haven't. well, the tone from government in - suggestion, because i haven't. in the tone from government in refusing to meet union leaders and negotiate feels incredibly patronising to women, and wrong. waiting lists are growing because we haven't got enough people prepared to work in that service. people are leaving the service. that is going to make waiting lists grow. you have got to pay people properly and treat people properly to save in the long term. i properly to save in the long term. i think you had in my first contribution, i did say i thought it would _ contribution, i did say i thought it would he — contribution, i did say i thought it would he a — contribution, i did say i thought it would be a mistake for the government not to meet with trade unions _ government not to meet with trade unions earlier. hopefully, that is going _ unions earlier. hopefully, that is going to — unions earlier. hopefully, that is going to change. | unions earlier. hopefully, that is going to change-— unions earlier. hopefully, that is going to change. i think in terms of all of this, going to change. i think in terms of all of this. we _ going to change. i think in terms of all of this, we are _ going to change. i think in terms of all of this, we are in _ going to change. i think in terms of all of this, we are in for _ going to change. i think in terms of all of this, we are in for a _ going to change. i think in terms of all of this, we are in for a bumpy i all of this, we are in for a bumpy few weeks and i all of this, we are infora bumpy few weeks and i am sure we all of this, we are in for a bumpy few weeks and i am sure we will spend more time talking about

strikes as they progress in the next couple of weeks. but now i want to talk about something more cheerful. last week we spoke to howard hugh of nasa, one of the scientists working on the artemis mission to get people back to the moon. not that we are obsessed with it in the studio. but the mission is up there somewhere, and it has been capturing some amazing pictures. look at this, the artemis mission's orion capsule has successfully done a flyby of the moon. look at the detail on the surface, at lot more than a block of cheese. it is day 11 of the mission now, and orion is in what is called distant retrograde orbit. i learned that this morning. it means flying at about 40,000 miles above the moon, and it will go halfway around before coming home, when it is due to splashdown in the atlantic on the 11th of december. as howard told us, they need to capsule back for the next mission. the pictures are amazing, but the project is a giant chemistry lab too. there are no

humans up there, but nasa is using the trip to see how some living things react to being in deep space. hannah, as a scientist and mathematician, give us a sense of the kind of complexities involved to get something like this off the ground? it is absolutely wild. the whole reason — it is absolutely wild. the whole reason they— it is absolutely wild. the whole reason they are _ it is absolutely wild. the whole reason they are putting - it is absolutely wild. the whole reason they are putting up - it is absolutely wild. the whole reason they are putting up in l it is absolutely wild. the whole i reason they are putting up in an crewed — reason they are putting up in an crewed mission _ reason they are putting up in an crewed mission —— _ reason they are putting up in an crewed mission —— and - reason they are putting up in an . crewed mission —— and un—crewed mission _ crewed mission —— and un—crewed mission is — crewed mission —— and un—crewed mission is because _ crewed mission —— and un—crewed mission is because they— crewed mission —— and un—crewed mission is because they expect. crewed mission —— and un—crewed i mission is because they expect there will he _ mission is because they expect there witt he hiccups— mission is because they expect there will be hiccups and _ mission is because they expect there will be hiccups and they _ mission is because they expect there will be hiccups and they want - mission is because they expect there will be hiccups and they want to - will be hiccups and they want to fail usefully _ will be hiccups and they want to fail usefully in _ will be hiccups and they want to fail usefully in a _ will be hiccups and they want to fail usefully in a way _ will be hiccups and they want to fail usefully in a way that - will be hiccups and they want toi fail usefully in a way that doesn't harm _ fail usefully in a way that doesn't harm anybody _ fail usefully in a way that doesn't harm anybody. inside _ fail usefully in a way that doesn't harm anybody. inside the - fail usefully in a way that doesn't i harm anybody. inside the capsule, they have — harm anybody. inside the capsule, they have these _ harm anybody. inside the capsule, they have these mannequins - harm anybody. inside the capsule, they have these mannequins whoi harm anybody. inside the capsule, . they have these mannequins who are hooked _ they have these mannequins who are hooked up— they have these mannequins who are hooked up in— they have these mannequins who are hooked up in the _ they have these mannequins who are hooked up in the normal— they have these mannequins who are hooked up in the normal suits- they have these mannequins who are hooked up in the normal suits and i hooked up in the normal suits and have _ hooked up in the normal suits and have sensors— hooked up in the normal suits and have sensors on _ hooked up in the normal suits and have sensors on them. _ hooked up in the normal suits and have sensors on them. when - hooked up in the normal suits and have sensors on them. when the i have sensors on them. when the capsule _ have sensors on them. when the capsule comes— have sensors on them. when the capsule comes back— have sensors on them. when the capsule comes back down - have sensors on them. when the capsule comes back down to - have sensors on them. when the . capsule comes back down to earth, they will— capsule comes back down to earth, they will he — capsule comes back down to earth, they will be collecting _ capsule comes back down to earth, they will be collecting all _ capsule comes back down to earth, they will be collecting all sorts - capsule comes back down to earth, they will be collecting all sorts of. they will be collecting all sorts of data about — they will be collecting all sorts of data about the _ they will be collecting all sorts of data about the extremes - they will be collecting all sorts of data about the extremes that - they will be collecting all sorts of- data about the extremes that happen on the _ data about the extremes that happen on the body — data about the extremes that happen on the body. instead _ data about the extremes that happen on the body. instead of— data about the extremes that happen on the body. instead of mannequins, | on the body. instead of mannequins, they have _ on the body. instead of mannequins, they have called _ on the body. instead of mannequins, they have called them _ on the body. instead of mannequins, they have called them moonequins. i on the body. instead of mannequins, j

they have called them moonequins. l they have called them moonequins. [ see they have called them moonequins. see what they did there. now, they have called them moonequinsi see what they did there. now, there is another big story, the world cup. wales is hanging on by the skin of their teeth, wales is hanging on by the skin of theirteeth, england wales is hanging on by the skin of their teeth, england not so impressive on friday night against the usa. hannah, you have got your giant calculator out and we asked you to do some numbers. one of the bullying things about any big tournament are the upsets, the giant—killing moments —— that is one of the brilliant things about a tournament. what are the chances of a big upset in a tournament like this, can you predict them? you sort of cam -. this, can you predict them? you sort of camp- you — this, can you predict them? you sort of camp- you can — this, can you predict them? you sort of camp. you can do _ this, can you predict them? you sort of camp. you can do some _ this, can you predict them? you sort of camp. you can do some number i of camp. you can do some number crunching — of camp. you can do some number crunching based _ of camp. you can do some number crunching based on _ of camp. you can do some number crunching based on the _ of camp. you can do some number crunching based on the fifa - of camp. you can do some number crunching based on the fifa world i crunching based on the fifa world rankings — crunching based on the fifa world rankings it— crunching based on the fifa world rankings it is— crunching based on the fifa world rankings. it is actually _ crunching based on the fifa world rankings. it is actually a - crunching based on the fifa world rankings. it is actually a system i rankings. it is actually a system that was— rankings. it is actually a system that was originally— rankings. it is actually a system that was originally designed - rankings. it is actually a system that was originally designed for| that was originally designed for chess _ that was originally designed for chess rankings. _ that was originally designed for chess rankings. it _ that was originally designed for chess rankings. it compares . that was originally designed for| chess rankings. it compares the strength— chess rankings. it compares the strength of— chess rankings. it compares the strength of one _ chess rankings. it compares the strength of one player- chess rankings. it compares the strength of one player against l strength of one player against another— strength of one player against another by— strength of one player against another by how— strength of one player against another by how they - strength of one player against another by how they have - strength of one player againsti another by how they have done against — another by how they have done against other— another by how they have done against other similar— another by how they have done against other similar players. i another by how they have done . against other similar players. the bil against other similar players. the big upsets — against other similar players. the big upsets we _ against other similar players. the big upsets we have _ against other similar players. the big upsets we have had _ against other similar players. the big upsets we have had so- against other similar players. the big upsets we have had so far, i against other similar players. the i big upsets we have had so far, saudi arabia _ big upsets we have had so far, saudi arabia and _ big upsets we have had so far, saudi arabia and argentina, _ big upsets we have had so far, saudi arabia and argentina, and _ big upsets we have had so far, saudi arabia and argentina, and also- arabia and argentina, and also germany— arabia and argentina, and also germany and _ arabia and argentina, and also germany and japan, _ arabia and argentina, and also germany and japan, each - arabia and argentina, and also germany and japan, each of i arabia and argentina, and also. germany and japan, each of those were _ germany and japan, each of those were pretty— germany and japan, each of those were pretty unlikely. _ germany and japan, each of those were pretty unlikely. the - germany and japan, each of those were pretty unlikely. the saudi. were pretty unlikely. the saudi arabia — were pretty unlikely. the saudi arabia one _ were pretty unlikely. the saudi arabia one in _ were pretty unlikely. the saudi arabia one in particular. - were pretty unlikely. the saudi. arabia one in particular. looking were pretty unlikely. the saudi - arabia one in particular. looking at those _ arabia one in particular. looking at those rankings, _ arabia one in particular. looking at those rankings, there _ arabia one in particular. looking at those rankings, there was - arabia one in particular. looking at those rankings, there was a - arabia one in particular. looking at those rankings, there was a 20% l those rankings, there was a 20% chance _ those rankings, there was a 20% chance that _ those rankings, there was a 20% chance that saudi _ those rankings, there was a 20% chance that saudi would - those rankings, there was a 20% chance that saudi would have - those rankings, there was a 20% -

chance that saudi would have beaten argentina _ chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop— chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if— chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if you _ chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if you are _ chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if you are a _ chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if you are a fan- chance that saudi would have beaten argentina stop if you are a fan of- argentina stop if you are a fan of that team, — argentina stop if you are a fan of that team, then _ argentina stop if you are a fan of that team, then yes, _ argentina stop if you are a fan of that team, then yes, you - argentina stop if you are a fan of that team, then yes, you should| argentina stop if you are a fan of. that team, then yes, you should be really— that team, then yes, you should be really surprised _ that team, then yes, you should be really surprised when _ that team, then yes, you should be really surprised when your - that team, then yes, you should be really surprised when your team - really surprised when your team wins _ really surprised when your team wins but — really surprised when your team wins but the _ really surprised when your team wins. but the chances _ really surprised when your team wins. but the chances of- really surprised when your team wins. but the chances of any- really surprised when your team i wins. but the chances of any kind really surprised when your team - wins. but the chances of any kind of upsets _ wins. but the chances of any kind of upsets are _ wins. but the chances of any kind of upsets are actually _ wins. but the chances of any kind of upsets are actually quite _ wins. but the chances of any kind of upsets are actually quite high - upsets are actually quite high because — upsets are actually quite high because of— upsets are actually quite high because of course, _ upsets are actually quite high because of course, in - upsets are actually quite high because of course, in the - upsets are actually quite high . because of course, in the world upsets are actually quite high - because of course, in the world cup, you have _ because of course, in the world cup, you have very— because of course, in the world cup, you have very strong _ because of course, in the world cup, you have very strong teams - because of course, in the world cup, you have very strong teams who - because of course, in the world cup, you have very strong teams who arei you have very strong teams who are playing _ you have very strong teams who are playing against _ you have very strong teams who are playing against much _ you have very strong teams who are playing against much weaker - you have very strong teams who are| playing against much weaker teams. how high? _ playing against much weaker teams. how hiah? ~ , how high? well, i did some number crunchinu. how high? well, i did some number crunching. 95.596 _ how high? well, i did some number crunching. 95.596 of— how high? well, i did some number crunching. 95.596 of two _ how high? well, i did some number crunching. 95.596 of two upsets - how high? well, i did some number crunching. 95.596 of two upsets in i crunching. 95.5% of two upsets in the first _ crunching. 95.5% of two upsets in the first round. _ crunching. 95.5% of two upsets in the first round. if— crunching. 95.5% of two upsets in the first round. if i _ crunching. 95.596 of two upsets in the first round.— the first round. if i were smarter, i could the first round. if i were smarter, i could work— the first round. if i were smarter, i could work out _ the first round. if i were smarter, i could work out how _ the first round. if i were smarter, i could work out how that - the first round. if i were smarter, i could work out how that would i the first round. if i were smarter, i i could work out how that would help me at the bookies, but i can't work it out, so i am going to ask you something else. england and wales, all eyes are going to be on the two home nations playing each other. what is the chance of a straight england win?— what is the chance of a straight england win? 6596, and 3596 wind chance for wales. _ england win? 6596, and 3596 wind chance for wales. you _ england win? 6596, and 3596 wind chance for wales. you may - england win? 6596, and 3596 wind chance for wales. you may have | chance for wales. you may have noticed — chance for wales. you may have noticed there _ chance for wales. you may have noticed there is _ chance for wales. you may have noticed there is no _ chance for wales. you may have noticed there is no room - chance for wales. you may have noticed there is no room for- chance for wales. you may have noticed there is no room for a l chance for wales. you may have - noticed there is no room for a draw. that is— noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one — noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one of— noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one of the _ noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one of the big _ noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one of the big failings- noticed there is no room for a draw. that is one of the big failings of- that is one of the big failings of these _ that is one of the big failings of these fifa — that is one of the big failings of these fifa rankings. _ that is one of the big failings of these fifa rankings. despite - that is one of the big failings of these fifa rankings. despite iti these fifa rankings. despite it being — these fifa rankings. despite it being about _ these fifa rankings. despite it being about football, - these fifa rankings. despite it being about football, they- these fifa rankings. despite it. being about football, they don't

include — being about football, they don't include the _ being about football, they don't include the prediction _ being about football, they don't include the prediction of - being about football, they don't include the prediction of there i include the prediction of there being — include the prediction of there being a — include the prediction of there being a draw _ include the prediction of there being a draw— include the prediction of there being a draw. include the prediction of there bein: a draw. . , , . , ., include the prediction of there bein adraw. . , , ., . being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should _ being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should add, _ being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should add, a _ being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should add, a 1-0 _ being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should add, a 1-0 win - being a draw. that seems a bit of a miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is - being a draw. that seems a bit of a| miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their— miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their system _ miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their system is _ miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their system is like - miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their system is like a - miss. i should add, a 1-0 win is the same in their system is like a 6-0 i same in their system is like a 6—0 defeat _ same in their system is like a 6—0 defeat so— same in their system is like a 6—0 defeat. so there is _ same in their system is like a 6—0 defeat. so there is room - same in their system is like a 6—0 defeat. so there is room for- defeat. so there is room for improvement— defeat. so there is room for improvement there. - defeat. so there is room for improvement there. but - defeat. so there is room for| improvement there. butjust defeat. so there is room for. improvement there. but just a straight — improvement there. but just a straight england _ improvement there. but just a straight england win, - improvement there. but just a straight england win, you - improvement there. but just a straight england win, you take improvement there. but just a - straight england win, you take those numbers— straight england win, you take those numbers with — straight england win, you take those numbers with a _ straight england win, you take those numbers with a pinch _ straight england win, you take those numbers with a pinch of _ straight england win, you take those numbers with a pinch of salt - straight england win, you take those numbers with a pinch of salt but - straight england win, you take those numbers with a pinch of salt but it. numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives— numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives you — numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives you an— numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives you an indication. _ numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives you an indication. find - numbers with a pinch of salt but it gives you an indication.— gives you an indication. and what about the well _ gives you an indication. and what about the well stream _ gives you an indication. and what about the well stream of - gives you an indication. and what about the well stream of four - gives you an indication. and what i about the well stream of four goals for them, which would see them through? for them, which would see them throu~h? , , _, ., . through? the numbers come out at 2.296. through? the numbers come out at 2-2%- that — through? the numbers come out at 2-2%- that is _ through? the numbers come out at 2.296. that is virtually _ through? the numbers come out at 2.296. that is virtually meaningless| 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once _ 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you _ 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you get — 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you get to _ 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you get to that _ 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you get to that level. - 2.2%. that is virtually meaningless once you get to that level. haste i 2.296. that is virtually meaningless once you get to that level. have you two been watching _ once you get to that level. have you two been watching the _ once you get to that level. have you j two been watching the tournament? the only good thing about the world cup going _ the only good thing about the world cup going to qatar, and there are many— cup going to qatar, and there are many appalling things about it, is that the _ many appalling things about it, is that the games are on early in the morning. — that the games are on early in the morning. so— that the games are on early in the morning, so you can sit and work and pretend _ morning, so you can sit and work and pretend you — morning, so you can sit and work and pretend you are doing e—mails. so

pretend you are doing e—mails. sc the pretend you are doing e—mails. ’ir the statistical pretend you are doing e—mails. 5r the statistical chance of wales qualifying is very slim, but football isn't just about statistics, it is about the heart. so we asked legendary welsh singer bonnie tylerfor some so we asked legendary welsh singer bonnie tyler for some words of inspiration for her team. this is the first time we've been in the world cup for 64 years, so we are good. we've got to believe in ourselves. like my mother always used to say to me, "believe in yourself", you know, because we can do it. we can do it. all my band will be all "england, england", i suppose, but in the nicest possible way. you know, it's only a game, after all, but i'm very proud of the welsh team. what's your message for the squad, bonnie? get out there and do it for wales! if i can do it at 71, boys, come on! get on and do it! and is there one of yoursongs, bonnie... # i need a hero! come on, boys. gareth, come on!

everybody needs a cheerleader like bonnie tyler! if you had her on your site, you could do anything. as you know by now — we love hearing from you on this programme. email us on kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk, use the hashtag #bbclaurak on social media and — as i mentioned earlier — do go and check out the livepage for the latest analysis on today's interviews and my thoughts after the programme. a few minutes ago, we were talking to the cabinet minister, mark harper, about the prospect of a series of strikes — sometimes the tories think they can shrug off the political problem by pointing to labour's links with the union movement. where does labour stand ? let's find out with lisa nandy, the shadow levelling up secretary, who's with us from wigan. how do i follow bonnie tyler? i don't know, but let's see how you get on. firstly, would public sector

workers be better paid under a labour government?— workers be better paid under a labour government? yes, i believe they would. — labour government? yes, i believe they would. rrot — labour government? yes, i believe they would, not just _ labour government? yes, i believe they would, not just because - labour government? yes, i believe they would, notjust because we i they would, notjust because we would treat them as partners, as the welsh labour government has been doing in wales, which has averted many of the strikes we have seen in england, but also because we have a plan to grow the economy and make sure that money goes back into people's pockets. unless you get a grip on the economy, you will never have enough to reward people fairly because the cost of living crisis is out of control. that is why we have said we will invest in clean energy and emerging technologies all over the country in order to get good jobs back into communities that have seen them disappear, money back into people's pockets and the economy growing again. so people's pockets and the economy growing again-— people's pockets and the economy growing again. so you say you would -a ublic growing again. so you say you would pay public sector— growing again. so you say you would pay public sector workers _ growing again. so you say you would pay public sector workers more, - growing again. so you say you would pay public sector workers more, but| pay public sector workers more, but how much more? would you give people pay rises that match inflation? well, the key is to bring inflation

down so that you are not continually watching inflation and the cost of living outstripping what people are earning. that is where we have said we would publish all obr forecasts. we would always have an independent assessment of our spending before we make it and we would have an office for value for public money so we made sure every penny was spent wisely. that is why i have set out plans to devolve power to mayors and councils to make sure that those who are closer to our communities would get... are closer to our communities would let. .. �* ., , ., are closer to our communities would net...�* ., , , . get... but would you give the public sector inflation _ get... but would you give the public sector inflation matching _ get... but would you give the public sector inflation matching pay - get... but would you give the public sector inflation matching pay rises? | right now it would be absurd for me to open a negotiation live on television, we have not been invited in and we have not had the books open to us by mark harper. you are attackin: open to us by mark harper. you are attacking the _ open to us by mark harper. you are attacking the government - open to us by mark harper. you are attacking the government for - attacking the government for refusing to give public sector workers... it is a question of

principle. would you or would you not match inflation? it is a question of principle. with inflation where it is, would a labour government give people pay rises of that kind of level, 10% increases? rises of that kind of level, 1096 increases?— rises of that kind of level, 1096 increases? . , increases? we want to see people aid increases? we want to see people paid enough _ increases? we want to see people paid enough money _ increases? we want to see people paid enough money to _ increases? we want to see people paid enough money to live - increases? we want to see people paid enough money to live on - increases? we want to see people paid enough money to live on and| paid enough money to live on and rewarded fairly for the contribution they make. what you are asking me is not what we match inflation, you are asking me to commit to a specific number without having been invited into the negotiations and seeing the books. i can tell you we think it is unconscionable that nurses and rail workers who went out and kept the country moving in the pandemic are not being paid enough to put food on the table, we are looking in every way we could help with that including a long—term plan for the economy, and getting resources very quickly in the first 100 days of a labour government into the nhs through scrapping non—dom tax status so we can ease the workforce pressures. a real capacity problem in the nhs, people are very burned

out and it is compounding the cost of living crisis. we will use every means at our disposal to help people because they deserve it and the country cannot keep going on like this. if country cannot keep going on like this. , ., , country cannot keep going on like this. i. , ., ,, , country cannot keep going on like this. , ., ,, , , this. if you believe workers deserve it, can this. if you believe workers deserve it. can you — this. if you believe workers deserve it. can you give _ this. if you believe workers deserve it, can you give workers _ this. if you believe workers deserve it, can you give workers watching i it, can you give workers watching this morning any sense of the kinds of increases you might support? 5%? 7%? 15%, like the barristers got? can you give us a sense of the number acceptable? can you give us a sense of the numberacceptable? i can you give us a sense of the number acceptable?— can you give us a sense of the number acceptable? i could do that, but i number acceptable? i could do that, but i would — number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have _ number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have to _ number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have to pluck _ number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have to pluck it - number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have to pluck it out - number acceptable? i could do that, but i would have to pluck it out of. but i would have to pluck it out of thin air because we have not seen the books, we have not been invited into the negotiations, so it is not possible for me to tell you what is affordable. what is worse than that is not that we haven't been invited into the negotiations but that the workers haven't. the reason we are facing strike action is because you have got nurses after 106 years going out on strike because the health secretary refused to meet them all summer in order to

negotiate. the only reason he met them is because of strike action became a real and looming prospect. that is absurd, that you have a situation where people who are not enough to put food on the table for theirfamilies, applauding only a couple of years ago, having to go on strike, just to get a meeting a negotiation started with the people who are supposed to be in the corner? ,, �* . ~' who are supposed to be in the corner? ,, 1, ~ , ., , corner? steve barker is now he says havin: corner? steve barker is now he says having to have negotiations - corner? steve barker is now he says having to have negotiations with - corner? steve barker is now he says having to have negotiations with the royal college of nursing is but the strikes are now set to happen, will you join the nurses on the picket line? h you join the nurses on the picket line? . ., ., ., , ., line? i am not going to be on the icket line? i am not going to be on the picket line. _ line? i am not going to be on the picket line. i _ line? i am not going to be on the picket line, iwill_ line? i am not going to be on the picket line, i will be _ line? i am not going to be on the picket line, i will be in _ picket line, i will be in parliament. having met with nurses a couple of days ago, representatives from the royal college of nursing and unison, they have been clear with us, i want us to fight their corner and we will and they want us to go into parliament and do ourjob so they can do theirs. that is where i will be holding government ministers feet to the fire. we have

not got a militant workforce in this country, we have a militant government. it is about time they started taking seriously the plight of people in every workforce in public and private sector work across the country. eyre public and private sector work across the country.— across the country. are you concerned _ across the country. are you concerned there _ across the country. are you concerned there might - across the country. are you concerned there might be i across the country. are you j concerned there might be a across the country. are you - concerned there might be a wide series of strikes in different sectors? some in the labour movement would like to see people like you on the picket line. he went on a picket line in the summer, i think we can show viewers a picture of that. some union leaders want to see prominent labourfigures like union leaders want to see prominent labour figures like yourself alongside them. —— you went. i labour figures like yourself alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers _ alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers want _ alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers want most - alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers want most of - alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers want most of all i alongside them. -- you went. i think what the workers want most of all is | what the workers want most of all is for us to go and fight their corner and make sure that they get the funding and support into the services and pay packets that they deserve. at the moment, the best way to do that is for us to be in parliament and putting the pressure on government ministers. i have never shied away from supporting my constituents, i met with the cw a

couple of days ago to discuss the ongoing issues with royal mail —— cwu. i will never shy away from standing upfor cwu. i will never shy away from standing up for working people, i am a member of the labour party and the clue is in the name. on every picket line, the dispute in the end has been resolved in the last 12 years by people getting around the table. the nurses i met a couple of days ago left me in no doubt they are desperate to resolve this and avoid strike action. they are doing their job, we will do ours, now we need the government to step up and do theirs. abs. the government to step up and do theirs. �* . the government to step up and do theirs. . , ., _, the government to step up and do theirs. . , ., the government to step up and do theirs. m ., theirs. a big part of your 'ob as shadow levelling * theirs. a big part of your 'ob as shadow levelling up h theirs. a big part of yourjob as shadow levelling up secretaryl theirs. a big part of yourjob asi shadow levelling up secretary is theirs. a big part of yourjob as - shadow levelling up secretary is to push on housing and issues about sorting out inequality in different parts of the country, housing is such a big part of this for everybody, how many houses would a labour government built in its first year if you win the election? taste year if you win the election? we have not year if you win the election? we have rrot set _ year if you win the election? - have not set a number on that at the moment, although we are planning to do that in advance of the general election. one of the reasons we haven't is we have seen huge upheaval in the housing market in

the last few weeks, in 44 days, liz truss and kwasi kwarteng crashed the economy and sent interest rates soaring and the consequences not just that mortgages have been withdrawn but developers are sitting on land because they believe there is not a market there carl bildt. we have a fast—moving situation with significant problems but we have committed the next labour government will ensure 70% of people will be able to achieve the dream of homeownership and we will return social housing to the second largest form of tenure which does involve a big programme of house—building in order to get the housing stock we need. . , ., , . order to get the housing stock we need. . i. , . , , ., need. can you give us a sense of the scale of that? _ need. can you give us a sense of the scale of that? keir _ need. can you give us a sense of the scale of that? keir starmer - need. can you give us a sense of the scale of that? keir starmer has - need. can you give us a sense of the scale of that? keir starmer has said | scale of that? keir starmer has said he wants 70% of home ownership. you have said you want a huge expansion of social housing. are we talking about hundreds of thousands of extra homes being built every year? there is a target. — homes being built every year? there is a target. i — homes being built every year? there is a target. i am _ homes being built every year? there is a target, i am not _ homes being built every year? there is a target, i am not sure _ homes being built every year? there is a target, i am not sure if- homes being built every year? there is a target, i am not sure if it - is a target, i am not sure if it still exists because it is hard to

keep track with this government, it was scrapped and then returned and scrapped again. but there has been a long—standing target to build 300,000 new homes a year in britain because of the scale of the crisis we have got. we have a huge housing crisis in this country, a million people stuck on social housing waiting lists, lots of people in the private rented sector with rents going through the roof, and poor housing stock. the awful case of the little boy in rochdale because far too many families are stuck in homes not fit for human habitation. the little boy was exposed to prolonged mould and damp and eventually died. we cannot go on like this. we have to have a large scale housing building programme and one of the ways to do that is to make it much easierfor ways to do that is to make it much easier for councils to buy land at existing use price and reform the compulsory purchase system so it becomes much easier for them to do that. and to ask developers to use

it either make or lose it, so if they are sitting on land for long periods banking the profit, unacceptable when there is a housing crisis. it is notjust how much but hell. crisis. it is not 'ust how much but hell. ~ ., y ., crisis. it is not 'ust how much but hell. ~ ., ,. hell. would you scrapped the right to bu ? hell. would you scrapped the right to buy? some _ hell. would you scrapped the right to buy? some suggestion - hell. would you scrapped the right to buy? some suggestion you - hell. would you scrapped the right i to buy? some suggestion you should because. to buy? some suggestion you should —— it is notjust how much but how. people live in council homes, the families there, a good thing they are able to stay there and pass it down if they want to, but the problem with the right to buy is the money was never put back into the system so every time a home or sold it was lost from the housing stock. that is completely wrong. i agree with michael gove, actually, who said earlier this year the right to buy is sustainable if you replace homes like for like. we will see what is affordable under the next labour government. but we support the principle. what we do not support is the deliberate vandalism of the social housing stock. i

support is the deliberate vandalism of the social housing stock.- of the social housing stock. i want to finally ask _ of the social housing stock. i want to finally ask you _ of the social housing stock. i want to finally ask you a _ of the social housing stock. i want to finally ask you a different - to finally ask you a different question, used it for the leadership of the labour party in 2020 promising he would protect freedom of movement, kier starmer did the same, this week he said something completely different, he has no interest in freedom of movement, it cannot return, you have also changed your position. how can you attack the conservatives for chopping and changing when you have done exactly the same thing? i changing when you have done exactly the same thing?— the same thing? i have always believed in _ the same thing? i have always believed in freedom _ the same thing? i have always believed in freedom of - the same thing? i have always i believed in freedom of movement but only if it is allied to a strong investment in skills and opportunities for young people here in britain. we have not changed our position in that respect. you in britain. we have not changed our position in that respect.— position in that respect. you have completely _ position in that respect. you have completely changed _ position in that respect. you have completely changed your - position in that respect. you have i completely changed your positions. kier starmer used to say he would defend freedom of movement. now he says he is not interested in it, cannot turn back the clock, no longer labour policy.- cannot turn back the clock, no longer labour policy. what is the route to freedom _ longer labour policy. what is the route to freedom of _ longer labour policy. what is the route to freedom of movement? | route to freedom of movement? essentially applying to rejoin the

european union in one form or another. that isjust european union in one form or another. that is just not on the table. it is not on the table from european leaders, no appetite to reopen negotiations. nobody in this country wants to go back to years of endless division. what we should be doing is building a proper immigration system that looks at labour shortages, invests in the skills of young people first and invites immigrants to britain to fill the gaps and make a significant contribution. that seems to me a serious plan, not the endless back of a flag packet policies floated by this government unravelling as fast as they are announced.— this government unravelling as fast as they are announced. thank you for 'oinin: us as they are announced. thank you for joining us this — as they are announced. thank you for joining us this morning, _ as they are announced. thank you for joining us this morning, thank- as they are announced. thank you for joining us this morning, thank you i joining us this morning, thank you forjoining us on the programme. newscast from the bbc. now, my old friends and colleagues have more on the upcoming strikes, with a focus on the nursing walk—out, so do go and find adam fleming and the team on bbc sounds where you can suscribe so you never miss an episode. time for a last word with the panel — frances o'grady,

jake berry and hannah fry. jake berry, listening to lisa nandy, what did you reckon? she jake berry, listening to lisa nandy, what did you reckon?— what did you reckon? she kept talkin: what did you reckon? she kept talking about _ what did you reckon? she kept talking about having _ what did you reckon? she kept talking about having a - what did you reckon? she kept talking about having a plan i what did you reckon? she kept talking about having a plan but what did you reckon? she kept i talking about having a plan but they clearly don't have a plan or if they do, they are not prepared to talk to us about it. some really interesting things. the labour party does not know where it is going with immigration. i know where it is going with immigration. lam proudly know where it is going with immigration. i am proudly from the city of liverpool but i don't expect us to create a city that size every year with 503,000 net migrants coming to the country last year. it is as big a problem for the government as for the labour party. really divisive issue in redwall constituencies. she was not really prepared to commit to a new house building programme. both conservatives and labour will go to the election promising to out build each other. . the election promising to out build each other-— the election promising to out build each other. . ., . . . each other. finalword. we have had labour each other. finalword. we have had labour setting _ each other. finalword. we have had labour setting out _ each other. finalword. we have had labour setting out very _ each other. finalword. we have had labour setting out very clear - each other. finalword. we have had labour setting out very clear plans i labour setting out very clear plans for growth. labour setting out very clear plans for urowth. �* . , labour setting out very clear plans for growth-— labour setting out very clear plans for urowth. . . , . . for growth. and a very clear message to business- —

for growth. and a very clear message to business. business _ for growth. and a very clear message to business. business models i for growth. and a very clear message to business. business models need i for growth. and a very clear message | to business. business models need to be built— to business. business models need to be built on— to business. business models need to be built on decent work. that means paying _ be built on decent work. that means paying people fairly, treating them fairly. _ paying people fairly, treating them fairly. fair— paying people fairly, treating them fairly, fair pay agreements in areas like social— fairly, fair pay agreements in areas like social care, where the majority and less— like social care, where the majority and less than £10 an hour. you like social care, where the ma'ority and less than £10 an houni and less than £10 an hour. you two are never going _ and less than £10 an hour. you two are never going to _ and less than £10 an hour. you two are never going to agree. - are never going to agree. interesting hearing you sparring, thatis interesting hearing you sparring, that is basically the same track we will hear in the next couple of months. hannah fry, a last word from you on a totally different topic. they can see more of your insights on your tv programme next thursday on your tv programme next thursday on bbc two. it is on your tv programme next thursday on bbc two-— on bbc two. it is called the secret genius of modern _ on bbc two. it is called the secret genius of modern life _ on bbc two. it is called the secret genius of modern life and - on bbc two. it is called the secret. genius of modern life and someone described it as who do you think you are but for objects. i quite like that. are but for ob'ects. i quite like that. ~ . . are but for ob'ects. i quite like that. . . . ., , are but for ob'ects. i quite like that. ~ . . ., , ., are but for ob'ects. i quite like that. . . ., , ., that. what a modest title for your programme- _ that. what a modest title for your programme. definitely _ that. what a modest title for your programme. definitely not. i- that. what a modest title for your programme. definitely not. i can| programme. definitely not. ican assure you- _ programme. definitely not. ican assure you. all _ programme. definitely not. ican assure you. all of _ programme. definitely not. ican assure you. all of the _ programme. definitely not. ican assure you. all of the mistakes i | assure you. all of the mistakes i make. very light—hearted. a playful look at the world. taste make. very light-hearted. a playful look at the world.— look at the world. we like playful in this studio. _

look at the world. we like playful in this studio. one _ look at the world. we like playful in this studio. one extra - look at the world. we like playful in this studio. one extra viewer i in this studio. one extra viewer from jake berry this morning. next thursday on bbc two at eight o'clock if i have got that right. a huge thanks to my trio at the desk and to you for watching. unless there is something very unexpected, we are likely to witness a series of strikes the like of which we have not seen for some years. the government says money is too tight for big wage hikes but inflation is eating away at workers wages and many of them are determined to fight. we will get the results of big strike ballots in the next few weeks. things could get worse before better. the many disputes are all different but could add up to one big fat problem for the government. the 2020 plume are not the 19705 but rishi sunak�*s government are already getting pummelled at the poles and can ill afford to take the blame for a messy, angry winter of discontent. you can catch up with anything you missed on iplayer. i will see there

or here next week. good luck to england and wales. for now.

this is bbc news broadcasting in the uk and around the globe. our top stories. anti—government protests against strict covid restrictions continue to spread across china, with some demonstrators calling for the country's leader, president xi, to go. people in the uk who use social media posts to encourage self—harm will face criminal prosecution under new government proposals. with further rail strikes expected before christmas, the uk's transport secretary says reform is needed to fund wage rises but labour argues the government needs to do more to support workers. what has to happen is we have to agree on a set of reforms. it's the reforms that free up the savings that then unlock the ability for companies to make an offer to the trade unions on pay.