this is bbc news. the headlines and all the other main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. newscast. newscast, from the bbc. hello, it is adam in the studio. and chris in the studio. and in typicalfashion, you and i both take a day off this podcast and wednesday's episode, available on bbc sounds david cameron popped up! yes, a former prime minister, there is a few of them about these days... true, less exciting than ten years ago! but nonetheless, getting a former prime minister on our podcast is always a good thing, isn't it, to be able to kick around

what they are up to. so david cameron was on yesterday, talking about all things dementia and alzheimer's, which is something that he has sort of picked up and run with as an issue, as a theme. something that is massively important to millions and millions of families, ever since he has been prime minister. he was talking about this big breakthrough that was in the news yesterday. but it's ok because we've got some great guests for us to talk to. we have victoria atkins who is a treasury minister and stephen kinnock, who is the shadow immigration minister. hello. stephen, this is probably a tricky thing for you to discuss live on a programme, but dementia is something that your family is going through at the moment with your mum. how is she doing? well, she'sjust not really glenys kinnock any more. it's an awful illness, because you find yourself grieving for somebody who is standing right there in front of you. and she is still very lovely and charming but also there is no real sense in anything she says so it's

very, very difficult to engage with her at all now really. yes, it's very sad and it's an awful thing. but i am so encouraged by the discovery of this drug because i think for the first time they are addressing the causes of alzheimer's, rather than just the symptoms, and clearing this kind of rogue protein out. so i really, really want to see this coming to market as quickly as possible and being used by the thousands and thousands of families who are suffering from this awful thing. because the really striking thing is that this is an issue, this is a disease that is becoming more and more prominent, in an ageing society with these attempts to grapple to find solutions and the right drugs and so many families in exactly the situation you are in. that's right. it's a great thing that we live in a society where people can get old and live very, very long lives, but there are clearly some issues that arise from that. but the thing is, with my mum, she is in her late 70s now

but it has really been there for eight, nine years. she was diagnosed with it five years ago and the last couple of years she has really deteriorated. so it is the early onset alzheimer's which i think is really hard for people and also, when your parents, they make plans about how they want to live that part of their lives and it alljust gets taken away from them. so, yes, it's a growing issue. and of course developing these drugs is very expensive but if you think about the savings we can make in terms of helping people dealing with this, in society more broadly, it's absolutely an investment in order to save and i have so much respect and admiration for these scientists who are doing this research and coming up with these wonder drugs. it is absolutely extraordinary, what science can achieve. there was a debate in james cook's interview in newscast with david cameron where david cameron says, oh, former prime ministers shouldn't comment too much because then they are like back—seat drivers, and then he commented! and he talked about the cap on social care of £86,000 that was supposed to be coming in next year but in the autumn statement the chancellor pushed it back

a couple of years. david cameron was quite critical a, of that policy, because he says that it helps better—off people keep more of their assets compared to less well—off people, and he was also critical of the delay to the policy. what would you say to dc? well, with the policy itself, . we have had to listen to local authorities who obviously will be responsible for deliveringl much of the dilnot reforms, and... i he was the guy that proposed the cap in the first place? sorry, yes. and they told us they were not in the position yet being able i to roll it out and roll it out well, because obviously. when we do something, l we want it to be delivered as well as possible _ for the people on the receiving end of the help. which is why we have delayed it for a couple of years _ but nonetheless, in— the meantime, jeremy announced an enormous investment of £8 billion both in the nhs - and social care because of- course we know we are seeing already in the nhs some - of the problems that having, if you like that sticky spot, i the glue of releasing people from hospital is having not just for those individual. patients that want to get to l the next stage after hospital

and go back into their homes or into a care home - that is having a massive impact on the nhs as a whole. - let's talk about another topic that has been in the news this week and it is the issue of private schools and labour. stephen, your party's policy around charging vat on private school fees. what has intrigued me, this issue has been kicked around at various points over the last ten, 15, 20 years, but what intrigues me about this week is that the daily mail, which has the lightest splash of scepticism about labour quite often, for two days in a row had this story on its front page. and then, intriguingly, keir starmer decided to lean into it and do it as his opening set of questions at prime minister's questions when he might have chosen to, you know, stick to the policy not put it up in. —— you know, stick to the policy and not put it up in lights. what fascinates me about this

is this dividing line, because at prime minister's questions, keir starmer said, made his argument with passion and rishi sunak made his argument around aspiration versus, if you like, keir starmer�*s argument about "fairness" and both sides leaning into, passionately defending their own side of that argument. and i wonder, stephen, if you think that idea is a vote winner? because the argument that can come back is around defending aspiration, defending the right of parents to choose, and ensuring that those who might scrimp and save to pay for school fees are not frozen out of making that choice. well, whether or not it is a vote winner, it is absolutely the right thing to do. because there is a key point of principle here which is should working people across the country be subsidising the top 7% who are able to afford to send their children to private schools? and i think the answer to that question is no. it is simply not right. keir, in prime minister's questions, used the example of winchester school which has, i don't know, a theatre and a shooting range

and all sorts of other things, and had been given a subsidy effectively of £6 million of taxpayers' money. where we have got schools across the country that are really struggling to get the resources they need. so i think there is a fundamental point of principle here. politics is about choices. so you accept it might not be popular, it might cost you votes? no, i think you have got to do what is right. i think there is very often a strong overlap between what is right and what is popular... even if the net consequence of that were to be that the kind of super—rich, if you like, can still pay it because an extra 20% won't really touch the sides for them, but for those for whom it is a massive outlay with huge sacrifice, they will be the ones who can no longer afford it? i think there is probably a growing number of people across the country who can't afford it any more because of the cost of living crisis which is eating into the middle class as well. so in which case, it won't generate much money then. well, i think it will generate around {1.3 billion is the number i have seen, which is a significant amount of money with which you can resource state schools,

get in more teachers, give them the facilities they need. i don't think they are going to all get a shooting range like they have at winchester school, but nevertheless, i think that money would be very useful in terms of boosting investment. and this argument about aspiration, i think it is more really about the conservative party standing up for vested interests rather than aspiration. they stand up for the oil and gas companies, they are standing up for the non—doms and they are standing up for the private schools. so i think keir starmer is putting a very clear choice in front of the british people. do you want a party that stands up for working people and aspiration for working people, or do you want a party that stands up for vested interests? victoria, take on the argument as you hear it. just before i deal with - the policy, what is interesting and what is emerging, i think, about labour's strategy- is that they don't seem - terribly comfortable talking about policy unless they couple it with personal attacks - on rishi. so, the attack on private - schools, independent schools and vat policy wasn't done in the round, it was done .

as an attack on rishi - for the choice that his parents made about his schooling — - when, by the way, he will have been 11 years- old so i don't know how many children have a choice at that age — l but they attack him on his schooling. . they also then veer into - attacks on the achievements and the success he has had in his career — - and again, in this country, we, i hope, to celebrate people - working hard, making i a success of their lives, and the many, many different. ways that that can be achieved. and then, they move on toi an attack about who he fell in love with, and the fact that he married her. - you must be really upset when rishi sunak accuses keir starmer of being a north london lawyer then, because that's that. as a lawyer myself, a barrister, there'sl a difference between... yes. ..i am always very proud - when people refer to my legal career. on the private schools thing, i will push back to stephen in a second about the merits or otherwise of personalising an argument, rather than setting it in the broader

round, but on the critique that stephen makes of what he perceives to be the unfairness of the current model in terms of the tax breaks that private schools are given, you say what? we stand for freedom of choice. so, you know, if... but you could do that by charging vat on school fees. and we want people to be able to make choices- for their children. the figures — again, - labour have created these figures, but therel will be a knock—on effect of course, as you already identified, that| if people move their children out of that sector, of course | it is going to have an impact on the state sector — - which, by the way, is doing really, really well. - we have risen nine places| in the international league tables in terms of our- accomplishments in english and maths. we have more good and - outstanding schools than ever. so there is an enormous amount of success and achievement - and creativity within our comprehensive system. i but we know that we want to support that even more

which is why, in the autumn statement, we were able i to commit £4 billion more funding for our schools, . precisely because we want. to help children in the future. and stephen, on that personalisation thing, are you comfortable with that as an approach? when making a political argument, for keir starmer to go for the personal stuff, the school the prime minister was at, is that reasonable? is that the way political discourse should rightly be conducted? i think that it can help to throw into sharp relief the choices that people make as political leaders, and that it reflects a political ideology, because actions speak louder than words. so if you have taken certain choices, and those choices have clear political implications, then i think it is absolutely fair to point out, "look, you say this but you did this, that's hypocritical," or "you say this, you did this,

"that reflects the kind of person you are". so when people go to the ballot box at the next general election, it is right that they know what it is they are voting for. but you don't choose - who you fall in love with. do you? come on. but they can choose what tax to pay. and she made two choices — one to be a non—dom and... and she is now paying everything and more i than she does. but it'sjust... talking about the prime minister's wife here, just to be clear. ijust don't think that argument stacks up because of course you don't choose who you fall in love with... this isn't the romance podcast! i know! i'm sure you could offer advice to people who have dilemmas! but, i havejust noticed, you two do have something in common, which is that you are both from political dynasties, sort of. the kinnocks, your dad was an mp. yeah, yeah. but let's talk about a proper dynasty now, the windsors. are you going to watch this new harry and meghan documentary on netflix? because the trailer for it dropped just before we started recording this programme. well, i don't know. i do watch the crown. i do quite enjoy the crown.

where are you up to? are you bang up—to—date? no, i think i've watched two episodes of this latest series. ijust about managed to watch matt hancock in the final - of i'm a celebrity... i haven't got much time - to watch telly at the moment. he's back, isn't he? apparently so — - he's back tomorrow. glad to see him back? he's eaten things i could never in a million years eat, so, - hats off to him forj doing those trials. should he be back in the conservative fold at some point? that is a matter for- the chief whip and the prime minister. he should not have been away but, you know... . is there something in his argument that says if politicians are going to communicate beyond those who are super interested, then finding your way onto tv shows with colossal audiences where you are seen in the round, three—dimensional and all the rest of it... 0r podcasts? well, there is that. we don't have quite as many viewers. we like to make our little contribution. actually there's something we've got for you... no, just kidding! got you a little snack! i was wondering what those maggots over there were for.

but, i mean, is there something in his argument? and i know his critics will say it was a self—serving argument and all the rest of it and he's clearly made a lot of money from going in and all that. but that argument that says that for politicians and political argument to cut through, going into the places where there are big audiences, where people are seen in the round, everyone is three—dimensional but sometimes the prisms of westminster can crush people down to a caricature, it's kind of worth doing, actually? i think it's really interesting. - was it was barack 0bama i who said that his campaign started — by going to people's living rooms and ten people turning up and them spreading the word. i so, i guess, when we are knocking on doorsteps i canvassnna. — that's what we are trying to do, albeit very, very tiny sense compared _ to i'm a celebrity... of course you have things like ed balls whojust did so well on strictly and became a bit of a national treasure as a result of that. but i think there's a huge difference between doing that and doing something whilst parliament is sitting.

and i'm sorry to be like the grinch here, but ijust think it's wrong. i think it brings parliament into disrepute. because you fundamentally are elected to legislate, to be in parliament, participate in debates, vote on laws, it's the greatest honour and privilege of my life to be the mp for aberavon and ijust think it's an insult to your constituents to do what he did. so i think it is completely out of order. on the political dynasty thing, i'm slightly overstating it there, but as the children of mps, you know, we hear so often people saying not enough people are drawn towards politics any more. it can be a toughjob, you are on a five—year contract with the electorate living in two places and all that sort of stuff. i suppose a newscaster might wonder, i mean, what's interesting is, neither of you were put off by the political life, by growing up surrounded by it when it does have it's strains and difficulties and being in public life and being on the side of arguments where you might be unpopular or whatever,

yet you still decided to go for it. which ijust think is quite intriguing, you saw enough to lure you in rather than put you off? yes, my mum is very politically active, she is a councillor- in her local area and so - for me, they both showed me that politics can be . a real force for good. i hope i'm showing that to my son. - i haven't really thought i would do it. i'll tell you what actually really tipped me into doing it was my time in russia. i was director of the british council in st petersburg from 2005 to 2008 and we got embroiled in, you know, it was the relationship between the uk and russia had gone into the deep freeze and the british council became a political football in all of that. and just being up close and personal with the regime that isjust utterly ruthless, where there is no accountability, no sense that if the authorities come for you you've got nowhere to hide. itjust made me realise how much we take our democracy

for granted here. and that's when i decided i would go for it. could you see what has happened since coming, in terms of what's happened in russia and putin, and the nature of where russia finds itself now? i came to the conclusion in russia that we have been profoundly naive and complacent about regimes like the russian and the chinese and others. from that moment it was a kind of wake—up call that the west had got far too comfortable and you know, the end of history and it was all going to be this relentless march towards liberal democracy. when you were out in russia and you are up close and personal with those people you realise just how deeply wrong and naive that analysis was. and i think we are now seeing some of those chickens coming home to roost. victoria and stephen, thank you very much. thank you. thank you, thanks a lot. now we are going to talk about the cost of living and various other issues because we are joined by rapper, campaigner

and documentary maker, professor green, hello. hello. welcome. thank you. i thought when i was telling chris that you were coming on i'd have to explain who you were... little did you know. tell us how far back you go? about 3am in stoke, which sounds quite ominous. hello! which club was it? so this was the town hall, incredibly bright lives, three o'clock in the morning, friday morning, thursday into friday by—election. full stoke—on—trent central in 2017. you were making a documentary at the time? ijust reminded myself of those. 2017, yeah. i was, yeah, it was working class white men for channel 4 which was a 2—parter which would have come out i think 2018, i think. we got some really good stuff, we did obviously because we got the documentary otherwise if it wasn't any good they would have told us to sod off. and in the old days chris mason was famous for staying up all night on bbc one

on thursday night until there was a result at the by—election. we are bringing you to the here and now and what you have been doing with the big issue and a really striking statistic about the increase just in the last few months in the number of vendors going out and selling the big issue as a kind of metric ofjust how much so many people are struggling at the moment? yeah, really unprecedented times. and the fact we have people who have never encountered perhaps financial stress, debt ovary around their finances before are encountering it for the first time. i've had this conversation a few times and growing up how i did and where i did, my family, my nan had dealt with difficulties around money for a long time and as had everyone... where did you grow up? in upper clapton, hackney. a lot of the times when i say clacton, people go clacton? anotherfixed by—election. equally quite as bad. but no sea to swim in. it was tough for everyone on the estate i grew in and everyone become quite thick—skinned and quite resilient because of that. resilience is a word that goes missing when we talk

about mental health and people opening up and being more sensitive, men especially. resilience goes missing but actually what you get when you have suffered with that for your entire life is a bunch of really quite resilient people who are used to this. it doesn't make it easy, but they understand it and know how to navigate it without burying their head in the sand. the scary thing is, i think when you have people who are walking into this situation for the first time who have never encountered this stress or had to worry about putting food on the table, that is scary for a lot of people, and encountering that for the first time in your 30s or 40s, that's a recipe for disaster. that's the makings of wanting to bury your head in the sand and perhaps doing that and therefore not staying on top of things, let alone getting ahead of. resilience goes missing, what an interesting phrase. what do you mean? the idea of resilience goes missing, so i apologise because i segue way quite a lot... no, no, it's fine, i'm fascinated by it. yeah, i'm fascinated by that. the reason we're probably talking to each other now and spoke to each other in stoke is because i've done a hell of a lot of work

around men's mental health in particular and opening the floor to that conversation. i was probably the least likely candidate in 2012/13 to do that, but here we are. and i get annoyed listening to a lot of conversations around mental health because men are encouraged to be more sensitive and more open. that's necessary, but don't forget, men or women, we are all blooming resilient. and without that resilience you won't get through anything and if you are open and sensitive and you tell everyone your every problem, i guarantee you someone will take advantage of that. so you shouldn'tjust be walking around telling everyone your woes. you know, you have to be careful in how you approach dealing with your sensitivities and your vulnerabilities and your issues. some days you have to get out the house and put the mask on. i don't think people should bottle things up, i don't... not forever and permanently and not have someone to talk to. but in some instances your friends all the worst people because they've all lived a life and they might not feel like they have any ulterior motives, but their lives are going

to influence their advice. there are people, professionals who have studied for years and years to give you good advice. seek those people out and share your woes with them because they have no ulterior motives and they are not bringing their personal life into that room. whereas your silly mate barely has an education, what kind of advice... peer pressure, yeah. and also, you know, you go up to your mate and you build yourself up and you go, mate, i'm suffering with anxiety. anxiety, what are you? just because they've not suffered anxiety, you can't expect everyone to be able to help you with your issues. your, i hesitate to say professionaljourney, because we always use that word journey, it's a bit of a cliche... it's been a very bumpy road. yeah, but when i first met you five years ago and you were doing that documentary, you had been doing documentary work alongside your other stuff. now you are doing more and more aren't you, of the social campaigning stuff? there's been that, if you like, has there been a reorientation

that perhaps has taken you by surprise? when they looked at it, it's probablyjust because there's not that many working class voices. right. to be honest. if you weren't to have me sat here talking to you about this issue he would you have? you were a big supporter ofjeremy corbyn? maybe big is not the right word, but you supported, you were enthused byjeremy corbyn? i was, yeah and it helped meeting him. he came across as a very kind person and an empathetic person, someone who actually had feelings and understood the plight of people, of the working class especially. i mean, ifelt, yeah, it was hard for him, wasn't it? really difficult. some people would argue he made it even harder for himself. potentially, yeah. but again, humans, we don't always get everything right, do we, and sometimes you lose self—awareness when you are in such a position, ithink. could you find yourself getting enthused about keir starmer? do you know what, i will be honest, as much as i disagree with apathy, and i think it's

really important to take an interest, because for most of my life i didn't, because ijust felt politics, they don't talk like me, they don't sound... you know, it's nothing to do with me. politics is not for me, i am not from the place, it just doesn't apply to me. and then you realise, it absolutely applies to you because of the decisions they make impact your life and have impacted your life already. but i find it tough at the moment. and i think after covid as well, i was in morocco for 3.5 months during the first lockdown, which sounds lovely but we were stuck in the apartment, it was a state of emergency, you weren't allowed to use anything couldn't go to the beach, and then we had electrical storms and bad weather for 8.5 weeks. so even the balcony wasn't that much of a fun place to be. what were you doing there? visiting my partner's family. but what happened was in that 3.5 months was the news was on constantly and it was just a barrage of really horrible numbers of cases, of deaths without any context and it really depressed me. there was many contributing factors to that and i don't use

the word depressed lightly but it really started to plague me. so ijust stopped watching it and i read enough news now to keep up news now to keep up today with what's going onjust, but not enough to bring my mood down. fair enough. and there for something completely different. as an audio professional, i've always been intrigued by chris' headphones technique. really? yeah, he has one headphone on and the other one sort of half on? i have one fully on and one not on at all, really. but it sort of squishing your ear though? i get that, it gives me a sense of being in the room and present, but also still being able to hear what i sound like through the mic. just listen to this, adam. i don't believe it when he says it, but i believe it when you say it. when i'm recording, especially if i have to pitch, i'm really bad at singing... me too! i'm really, really bad at singing and that's why i get so many other people to sing on my songs because the stuff i write sounds much better when they sing it. but, yeah, thisjust gives me an idea of what i actually sound like. i get the best of both worlds, or the worst, in some instances. there you go, you see. this is what i've been telling you for years.

and what does it say about me in that i like to hear myself twice in both ears at all times? brilliant, thanks very much, lovely to meet you. lovely to meet you, bye. well that's the view of one professor. in the next episode of newscast and bbc sounds i will be speaking to another one, professor simon sharma. he's got a new show available on iplayer. am i allowed to say that you thought when you were told we would have professor green on you thought it was professor green of oxford university? it's manchester. 0h, is it? newscast. newscast, from the bbc. hello. fog has been quite a big feature of our weather over the last few days. in some places, quite persistent and reluctant to clear and there will be fog around to start friday morning once again. however, that fog should start to lift and clear to give some spells of sunshine with a bit more

of a breeze developing. but a really murky start for parts of east wales, the midlands down into the west country. but there is some mist and fog and low clouds to be found elsewhere as well. through the day though, with the easterly breeze starting to pick up, some of that mist and murk and low cloud will lift to give a bit more in the way of sunshine. some showers feeding into eastern england. northern england likely to stay quite cloudy for much of the time. similar story for scotland, rather grey and drizzly. a little bit of brightness developing out towards the west. northern ireland should see some sunshine — highs of ten degrees there for belfast. feeling colder than that if it stays grey and murky where you are. now through friday night, we keep this easterly breeze that will feed some showers into eastern parts of england, particularly some clear spells. not as much fog by this stage because of the extra breeze. temperatures generally holding above freezing. some places may see a touch of frost. high pressure way to the north—east of us centred across northern europe. but that is just about dominating the weather at the moment, fending off the frontal systems

for the most part. however, this band of cloud could bring a little bit of patchy rain to northern ireland and certainly northwest scotland through saturday. and at the other end of the country we'll see some cloud just filtering in from the near continent, bringing maybe some bits and pieces of rain and drizzle into southern counties of england. elsewhere, some spells of sunshine, some showers in the east and feeling quite chilly in the easterly breeze, which will still be with us into sunday. i think we'll see more of that cloud feeding up from the south. quite cloudy for many of us, actually. best of the sunshine in the west. there will also be some showers, some of which could be wintry over higher ground. top temperatures around five, six or seven degrees. just a taste of what is to come next week because it looks pretty likely that we'll see north or north—easterly winds feeding a plunge of cold air across the uk. and that brings with it the chance of some wintry showers. now, the details of the forecast will change between now and then. and there should be a lot of dry weather around, but some wintry showers are possible and it is set to feel really quite cold.

welcome to bbc news. i'm nuala mcgovern. our top stories — japan's joy: they beat spain in doha to reach the knockout stage of the world cup. cheering and applause. yells. but huge disappointment for two of europe's big hitters: germany and belgium are out. charges dropped against bruce lehrmann, the australian political advisor accused of rape, in the interests of the alleged victim's mental health. another royal row over racism raises questions as the woman accusing lady susan hussey

of �*othering' her at a formal event speaks out