this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from san francisco. i'm stephen sackur. from gold rush to tech boom, this has long been a city of big dreams and big fortunes. it prides itself on being progressive, even radical. some call it the woke capital of america. but something is going wrong here. drugs, crime, homelessness have turned san francisco into a symbol of urban failure.

my guest today is the mayor, london breed. can she turn san francisco around? mayor london breed, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. now, if i may, i'm going to start with a recent headline from the economist magazine. it describes san francisco like this... fabulously rich... ..and fabulously dysfunctional. do you recognise that description? what family doesn't have a little bit of dysfunction? but i wouldn't completely agree with the city being dysfunctional, because we have really a lot of great programmes and things that we do that actually

work very effectively. i mean, this is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. people travel from all over to visit and to experience our rolling hills and the excitement of san francisco — the games, the entertainment, the nightlife, the great restaurants. i know all about the natural assets. it's true, it's a beautiful city. it's also an extremely wealthy city. over the last decade, you've benefited enormously from being one of the tech capitals of the united states. so how come all of this wealth sits side—by—side with so many problems? well, so many problems which exist in any other major city. but when you think about what san francisco used to be, you know, even ten years ago, and the challenges with our unemployment rate and even with homelessness — we've seen in this year a 15% reduction in unsheltered homelessness because of a lot of the great things we're doing. we still have an extremely low unemployment rate even after the pandemic. we're not without our

challenges, but i feel like we are moving in the right direction to get things back in order. i just wonder if that's really true. i mean, just metres from where we sit in city hall, there are neighbourhoods where we see people homeless on the streets, clearly addicted to drugs, some of them shooting up in public. we know because we were advised about our own security that many of the streets around here in downtown are simply not safe. burglaries, car theft soaring in san francisco. and ijust wonder why you haven't fixed it. well, that's not entirely accurate. and let's just kind of go back to homelessness. i think oftentimes people see someone who's struggling with addiction on our streets and just assume that they are homeless. we've been able to house people. but the challenge that we

are facing is the fact that we have so many people who unfortunately are addicted to drugs. we have a large number of people who are dying from fenta nyl overdoses in our city. and we are struggling with managing this problem because in some cases there are a lot of layers of laws which prevent us from being even more aggressive than we need to be, prevent us from being as aggressive as we need to be. and so we'rejust doing the best we can. i want to stop you there, if i may. that phrase — "being as aggressive as we can be"... i just wonder if that's true. would you accept... ? let's start with crime. yes. would you accept that over recent years, the sort of progressive politics that have come from city hall and therefore filter through to policing and everything else, they have failed? the idea that you focus less on locking people up, more on treatment, more on therapies, it hasn't worked. well, i think that they're... san francisco is a lot more complicated than the rest of the country. so when we talk about... why? why, why?

because our progressive values are different things to different people here in the city. and to be clear, a lot of folks in san francisco, they want criminaljustice reform. they want someone to have a second chance after making a mistake. but what they have proven through a recall of our previous district attorney is they also want accountability. and i think one of the biggest challenges that we struggled with, there was a time where accountability was not happening, where someone was arrested for a crime and they were released and allowed to fight cases on the outside. and oftentimes those cases, which were not always violent, would get dismissed with no consequences. so i think things are changing. we have a new district attorney, finally, especially with the open—air drug dealing and some of the challenges that exist there. people are being held without bail and forced to go through the process of fighting these cases and are being held accountable like never before. where do you sit

on this, madam mayor? because, as you say, the district attorney position has changed and it looks like the new district attorney is kind of tougher than...on policing, on incarceration, than the previous district attorney. but i'm interested in you because your background is so interesting. you were brought up in one of the poorer neighbourhoods in san francisco. your family was poor and you struggled to make it. you actually are an amazing story because of your background — raised by your grandmother, some of your family members in prison. others were addicted to drugs. and i just wonder whether that gives you a different take on how to handle the city's problems. i definitely think it's instrumental in handling the city problems because i've lived in it and i've lived in it in a way that, as much as i empathise with the challenges of these communities that i grew up in and really the lack of support and opportunity, i also feel strongly

that there has to be justice when lines are crossed. we grew up during a time where homicides were on the rise in san francisco and in particular in our neighbourhoods where we weren't safe. and just because... as a kid, did you feel very unsafe here? idid. i did in a lot of instances, you know, because of my family, because of my community, because of where i lived, because of the back and forth shootings, which led to, in some cases, people losing their lives. and in that instance, you know, like, we talk about criminal justice form, but there also has to be justice for families who lose people to violence. there also has to be accountability for people who cross that line and commit those crimes. so, that's where i fall in. i believe in second chances and i believe in fairness in our criminaljustice system. but i don't believe in letting people get away with murder. just seems to me that there was a key moment for you when you really

snapped as mayor. i mean, you served on the board of supervisors, which is like the council here. you became mayor. but it was only in december 2021 when you declared a state of emergency in a particular district very close to here called tenderloin. such was the level of crime and drug addiction and homelessness. you declared a state of emergency and you said, quote, "it is time that the reign of criminals who are..." this is your quote. "..destroying our city must come to an end. we have to be more aggressive with law enforcement, more aggressive with our policies, less tolerant of all the. and then you used a word i can't even use on tv. "..all the bleep word that has destroyed our city." so, you actually believe san francisco is close to the edge? i think that we are coming back from the edge. i think that we are in a better place now because, again, this goes back to the police department making the arrest for people who have committed various layers of crimes and then in that same

day or that same week being released and not necessarily held accountable for what they did. and so now it's a whole new day with the new district attorney... but the old district attorney is pushing back. you know, he's now quoted as saying of your new approach and that of the new district attorney, he's quoted as saying, "jailing people who have mental health struggles, putting people who are illegally selling hot dogs on the street into cages. none of that will solve this city's problems." let's back up, because he's... he's exaggerating and he's not being factual in his representation of his comments, because the people that we are arresting are people who have committed violent crimes, including murder. the people that we are arresting involve a number of fenta nyl dealers. and in fact, fentanyl is killing people at alarming rates in this city. and people have to be held

accountable for that. we can'tjust allow people to burglarise businesses and think that they're not going to be held accountable in some way. and accountability is not just jail. accountability can mean other things, but to just let people go who commit crimes is no longer tolerated in san francisco. how far do you go? because the new district attorney, brookejenkins, has talked about — unless i've got this wrong — she's talked about some extraordinary measures like trying drug dealers for murder if they supply drugs which end up with a user of those drugs dying. now, is that to you the kind of harsh approach that is going to change this city? in 2020, we had over 700 people die from drug overdoses. in 2021, over 600. and we are on track this year for close to 600 people dying from drug overdoses in san francisco. and what's happening

with the people who are dealing those drugs, fentanyl, specifically, it is killing people, including our children as well. 15—year—old kid died from a fentanyl drug overdose. and as far as i'm concerned, i support what the district attorney is trying to do to try and deter, you know, the continuation of the rampant open—air drug dealing in our city, because we need to do something more than just... it's not, again, just about arresting our way. there has to be consequences associated with those arrests. do you worry that republicans... of course, you're a democrat, but republicans, not just in california, but across the nation, are now portraying san francisco as the sort of poster child of failure for progressive and, they would say... ..woke policy—making ? you're in the firing line now. yeah, but i will say that, sadly, in politics, you know, most elected leaders, you know, in some ways

or another, try to point the finger at someone else to make it look as though they're doing something better. and that's not always the case. here in san francisco, you call it what you want. but ultimately, you know, we're going to lead by example in proposing the kinds of ideas that are going to lead to change and making our city better. but i just wonder whether you feel that some policies have gone wrong. i mean, let's take one other policy, which is concerning immigration. and frankly, immigration and crime are the key messages the republicans are now peddling nationally about what is wrong with the democrats. 0n immigration, this city is defined as a sanctuary city, which means that if immigrants make it to san francisco, they are not going to be prosecuted on the basis of their illegality in this country. they're protected to a certain extent from federal law. does that play well with the people here or across the nation? well, i'll just say that

i think it's really sad that a country founded by immigrants who came here from europe would imply that no other immigrants who try and come into this country are welcome. but shouldn't the law be enforced? the law should not... it should not matter your immigration status or not. really? when you cross the line and you commit a crime in san francisco, you need to be held accountable just like anyone else. it should not matter whether or not you're an immigrant who has come here in whatever means you've come here. that is, we're getting away from the point of addressing the challenges with crime in general. it can'tjust be based on your immigration status.

one of the most striking things in this city is the sort ofjuxtaposition of extreme wealth and extreme deprivation and poverty. and sometimes the two things sort of come together. there was the case in february �*21 of dustin walker, an addict here in san francisco, who died on the street outside a house that later sold — just a little bit later — for roughly $5 million. and the point was his body had lain untouched on that smart street, unreported, for 11 hours. mm—hm. and again, you tell me that san francisco isn't dysfunctional. well, san francisco is a major city and we have challenges. we have people who struggle with notjust drug addiction, but alcoholism and other things. and part of what we have always tried to do is meet those challenges with opportunities to support people. as someone who grew up with a family who struggled with addiction, you're not going to be able to force someone who struggles with drugs into treatment.

but what we have to do is make sure that the opportunities when people want to get clean, when they want to turn their lives around, that those things are available. so to dismiss all of the great work we've done with abstinence—based rehab and the support that we've done for people who are turning their lives around with programmes like delancey street, these programmes have changed lives. and we have people who are former addicts out there working in communities to help support people who are struggling with addiction. in a sense, one of the points, i guess, of that particular story about that very unfortunate individual, it reflects on the crazy expense of property in san francisco for so many people. i don't disagree with that. it's so... it's utterly unaffordable. expensive, yeah. i mean, the average house price is well over $1 million. and the point is, it's changing the city. and maybe it's because the tech money came in so quickly and so much of it.

but right now, if you're middle class, let alone struggling, in san francisco, you can't afford to buy a home in this city. more and more people are leaving. let me just take us back a little bit, because pretty much between 2010 and 2015, when we were starting to see significant rise in the tech industry in our city and providing tax incentives and other things to do so... ..we created eight newjobs for every one new unit of housing. and i think that the focus on jobs, the focus on the economy and not on infrastructure, transportation, housing...have really put us in a very challenging situation. it was already unaffordable to live in san francisco, but it's gotten worse, which is why my push has been aggressive in terms of building housing in the city, almost by any means necessary. but it's not happening, madam mayor. i mean, if one looks at the planning procedures in this city, it is clear

that the people, frankly, in the elite who've made their money and have beautiful homes in this city, they are making every effort to stop big sort of housing developments, new units being built inside the city, and they are succeeding. and that is why, again, this word dysfunction, why your housing situation is so dysfunctional with pretty much 8,000 people living on the streets and many others forced to leave because they simply can't afford it. well, in the last point in time count that number was reduced to under 8,000. but only just. but let me... but it didn't happen in any other county in the state of california. but the point is, you've still got one in every 100 people, one in every 100, homeless in san francisco. yeah. and so let's take it back, because we're going to see some significant changes

in our ability to build housing because of the state—mandated housing element, which over the next eight years requires us to build about 82,000 units. we have over 50,000 units entitled. we have 30,000 that are going through the process. and once this housing element gets through, allowing a number of units to be as of right, we anticipate that of that 50,000, at least 30,000 of those units are going to be as of right and be able to build at a more rapid pace than we've ever seen in this city. and i think that's going to be really exciting for housing production in san francisco. i'm looking forward to that. and it's going to make a huge difference with the challenges that we experience with homelessness. but i don't want to discount the fact that over the past two years, over5,000 new units, new places forformerly homeless people have been established in our portfolio. so we've been working very aggressively to support this population, as challenging as sometimes it can be because of mental illness and because of substance use disorder. do you think the tech boom,

if you weigh it all up... mm—hm. ..has... ..been good for san francisco? i think financially it's definitely been a boost to our budget and providing the kinds of resources necessary to do all the things that we need to do to run a major city. i think that in fact it grew so fast, but our housing and... but if i may, has it not made you over—reliant on companies like twitter, uber...salesforce, which are massive players now in this city? they have leverage, and the people who own them, the big billionaires, some of whom live in and around san francisco, they have leverage, too. and ijust wonder if you're feeling that's altogether healthy. yeah, i don't know if that's entirely accurate. i think that, you know, like many of our big companies, including salesforce, for example, where you have benioff, who's a native san franciscan, who's invested in not only doing well with his company, but working to support great programmes

in san francisco... 0ur companies, many of our companies are very actively engaged in not only, you know, paying theirfair share of taxes and then some, but more importantly, being more involved in supporting the surrounding community for all our programmes and initiatives that we're pushing. well, look at elon musk, for example. now, he, of course, is the new owner of twitter. he slashed the workforce, which is definitely going to affect san francisco. but not only that, in the wider perspective, he's also with one of his other key businesses, tesla, he's moved it out of california. i know it wasn't in san francisco, but it was in california. and he's left it with these words... "california," he said, "used to be the land of opportunity. now it's become and is becoming more so the land of overregulation, over—litigation, over—taxation and scorn." it seems like the tech billionaires who used to love it here no longer love it here.

well, that's. .. again, i don't think that's entirely accurate because it's my understanding that... it was a direct quote from elon musk. he's saying that, but his actions are doing something completely different. number one, it's my understanding that twitter isn't going anywhere, that they plan to stay in san francisco. and number two, that they're going to start hiring and boosting up their personnel because they know what all tech companies know about san francisco — this is where the talent is. and san francisco doesn't rise and fall with the tech industry. you know, we have been through very challenges...times in the past with the dotcom bust and other things, and we continue to come out of that a stronger city. we're not... you know, we're here to work with companies. we're here to work with people who want to be here. and folks are going to say what they want to say. but at the end of the day, in my conversations with a number of these ceos, they want to be in san francisco because, again, this is an amazing city, regardless of the challenges, regardless of sometimes the dysfunction. it's an amazing city and it's

where the talent is. we discussed your extraordinary rise from very difficult beginnings to where you are today in city hall. you're seen by many as a rising star in the democratic party. i just want your take on where the party is. do you think the party needs to learn from what's happened in san francisco, that being all—out progressive, all—out liberal isn't going to work, that that leftist approach to what democratic party politics is about isn't what works across this nation? you may think that some of the policies and things we push forward are a little over the top and maybe too progressive for the country to follow. but oftentimes the examples and the things that we do here in san francisco, the rest of the country follows. in fact, when i shut down this city during covid, everyone thought i was crazy. they were like, "what are you doing?" and then all of a sudden, everyone else in this entire country had to shut their cities and their states down to deal with covid.

so i think we're not getting enough credit for really changing what happens in the us and in the world based on the things and the ideas that may sound unusual or crazy to other people. they end up becoming things that others, they want to know about, they want to implement, and they're always looking to san francisco for new and innovative ideas. and that's going to continue. and then just a final question. you talk about new and innovative ideas. i have called you a rising star of the democratic party. what does somebody like you think of your sort of national leader, your president, joe biden, running again in 202a? if he were to succeed, by the end of his second term, he'd be 86 years old. for you, as a young democrat leader, does that make any sense at all? if you're able to do thejob, it shouldn't matter what age you are. nancy pelosi is another example of that. she does... she takes care of san francisco

like no other elected leader. and she's amazing to work with. so from my perspective, it's really about whether or not you're doing thejob, what kind ofjob you're doing, and does it have an impact on our city? and i know that oftentimes folks like me, it's like, 0k, what's my next move? people are thinking about their next move. but i'm not... i'm not in thisjob looking for the nextjob. i love san francisco. and as someone who grew up in poverty, and in a very challenging environment, i know what is possible when we make the right investments, when we put forth the right policies that could really change someone's life. and that's what i'm in it for. mayor london breed, we have to end there, but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. we're already seeing the snow piling up across some parts of northern scotland here, for example, aberdeenshire. so no wonder there are snow warnings out, notjust for northern scotland, but snow showers elsewhere. but with the widespread frost, of course, ice is a real concern, particularly where the showers have been, but not exclusively. and this cold air sitting upon us at the moment is here to stay. you can trace its origin right the way back up to the arctic, and it will, in fact, engulf many parts of northern europe. so although the chance of snow is low inland, it's certainly not without the realms of possibility, because most of the showers that fall — as we head through the rest of the week — could fall as snow, most likely in western and eastern areas, and particularly across northern and northern scotland, where that snow will continue to blow around in the strong wind, as much as ten centimetres forecast here.

but perhaps a few more of those showers drifting southwards during the day on thursday. a few more showers as well for wales, the southwest, northern ireland. and it will be a cold start this thursday morning. widely frosty, which means that where we have got some dampness around and particularly the showers, it is going to be icy. that's one of the main hazards this morning as well as some locally freezing fog around. but we've got that snow risk as well for the north continuing, perhaps a few more wintry flurries coming down across scotland to the north eastern areas through the day. as i've already mentioned, a few more showers for northern ireland, wales and the southwest and sunshine in between. a lot of dry weather elsewhere, but it's cold — colder than it was yesterday and feeling colder still when you add on the strength of that wind. and that wind will continue to blow those showers further south through this evening and overnight. so perhaps a few wintry flurries notjust in the southwest, but also pushing across the midlands, east anglia towards the south and east, not amounting to a great deal, but potentially our first wintry flurries, sleet and snow flurries of the season. and certainly another cold night on the cards this coming night as well as this morning.

so scraping the ice off the cars, once again at real risk of ice again on friday. and wintry showers around, temperatures about 2—5 celsius, perhaps not quite as cold as those during the day ahead, but it gets colder still over the weekend because we start to see patchy, freezing fog lingering. so in that case, temperatures won't get above freezing for much of the day and over the snowfields. now, if you do want to stay across what's happening regionally and temperature by day and night, the apps a great place to get that info — the warnings online.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm mariko 0i. the headlines: german police carry out their largest—ever anti—terrorism operation against an alleged right—wing plot to overthrow the government. peru's left—wing president pedro castillo is held by police after trying and failing to suspend the country's congress. indonesia gives an early release from prison to one of the bali bombers — australia says it is disappointed and concerned. china abandons the toughest parts of its zero—covid rules — after waves of protests against lockdowns and isolation camps. harry and meghan's tell—all documentary goes to air in a few hours — we'll look at what secrets it might spill about the

british royal family.