good morning. let's not talk about last night. let's talk about the week ahead instead. it might be tricky. week ahead instead. it might be tric . , ., . , week ahead instead. it might be tric. , , week ahead instead. it might be tric . , , ., , ., tricky. nurse voices have been not heard and overlooked _ tricky. nurse voices have been not heard and overlooked for - tricky. nurse voices have been not heard and overlooked for such - tricky. nurse voices have been not heard and overlooked for such a i heard and overlooked for such a long time now. in heard and overlooked for such a long time now. , w ., ., heard and overlooked for such a long time now. , ., ., , time now. in the first action of its kind, time now. in the first action of its kind. nurses _ time now. in the first action of its kind, nurses will _ time now. in the first action of its kind, nurses will swap _ time now. in the first action of its kind, nurses will swap the - time now. in the first action of its kind, nurses will swap the boardsi kind, nurses will swap the boards for the picket line. ambulance drivers willjoin the growing ranks on strike. drivers will 'oin the growing ranks on strike. ~ . ., drivers will 'oin the growing ranks on strike.— fair- drivers will 'oin the growing ranks. on strike.— fair pay! on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we _ on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we want _ on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we want it? _ on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we want it? now! - on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we want it? now! with i on strike. what we want? fair pay! when do we want it? now! with a l when do we want it? now! with a bitterly cold _ when do we want it? now! with a bitterly cold winter, _ when do we want it? now! with a bitterly cold winter, no more hope of a win in qatar to cheer us up, union leader after union leader called for strikes. irate

union leader after union leader called for strikes.— called for strikes. we have no choice but _ called for strikes. we have no choice but to _ called for strikes. we have no choice but to call— called for strikes. we have no choice but to call for - called for strikes. we have no | choice but to call for industrial action, our members are skipping meals are not able to put the heating on. meals are not able to put the heating on-— meals are not able to put the heating on. meals are not able to put the heatin: on. ~ , , heating on. the prime minister is talkin: heating on. the prime minister is talking tough _ heating on. the prime minister is talking tough about _ heating on. the prime minister is talking tough about what - heating on. the prime minister is talking tough about what they - heating on. the prime minister is i talking tough about what they might do. it talking tough about what they might do. , ., , do. it is right that we minimise disruotion. _ do. it is right that we minimise disruption, that _ do. it is right that we minimise disruption, that is _ do. it is right that we minimise disruption, that is why - do. it is right that we minimise disruption, that is why we - do. it is right that we minimise disruption, that is why we are l disruption, that is why we are looking at tough laws. we disruption, that is why we are looking at tough laws. we have one big question. _ looking at tough laws. we have one big question, what _ looking at tough laws. we have one big question, what is _ looking at tough laws. we have one big question, what is the _ looking at tough laws. we have one i big question, what is the government doing now to stop strike chaos was all. —— for us all. strikes, strep a, serious pressures — the medical director of nhs england, professor sir steve powis, is here. can the health service really cope? how will the government manage serious problems at home and abroad? for the first time, james cleverly is here in the studio. as will the shadow health secretary — and a man tipped to be a future prime minister — labour's wes streeting to help us chew over what they have to say, who better than the leader of the nurses union going on strike,

pat cullen, the chairman of asda and conservative member of lords, stuart rose, and the historian, presenter and author, simon sebag montefiore, who has just completed a family history of nothing less than the world. hello and welcome. a couple of weeks ago, we asked on the show if we were heading for a winter of discontent — it seems it's here. let's look at the front pages. two kinds of misery. defeat in qatar, let's not dwell on that. a lot of newspapers talking about the strikes. the daily express saying that christmas strikes could cost £4 billion. pat cullen is the leader of

the nurses union. if nothing changes, your members are going to walk out in the first action of its kind ever. and yet the observer, i want to show the viewers, seems to hint that you may be willing to give some ground. are you changing your position? ilil" some ground. are you changing your osition? ,.,, ., .,, ., position? our position has not chanced, position? our position has not changed, absolutely _ position? our position has not changed, absolutely not. - position? our position has not| changed, absolutely not. what position? our position has not i changed, absolutely not. what i position? our position has not - changed, absolutely not. what i am saying is that the health secretary could choose negotiation over picket lines. my door is open. if he doesn't want to speak to me in one—to—one, what i am offering him this morning is conciliation through acas. we can start to do that tomorrow morning, at whatever time he wants to be available at. that's really important. in he wants to be available at. that's really important.— really important. in the observer, it seems to _ really important. in the observer, it seems to suggest _ really important. in the observer, it seems to suggest that - really important. in the observer, it seems to suggest that you - really important. in the observer, it seems to suggest that you are l it seems to suggest that you are willing to give some ground. are you accepting that your original demand for 15% of a pay increase is too high? for 1596 of a pay increase is too hi . h? �* for 1596 of a pay increase is too hiuh? �* ., for 1596 of a pay increase is too hih? �* ., ., ., for 1596 of a pay increase is too hiuh? �* ., ., ., ., ., ., high? i'm not going to negotiate on the airwaves. _ high? i'm not going to negotiate on the airwaves, definitely _ high? i'm not going to negotiate on the airwaves, definitely not. - high? i'm not going to negotiate on the airwaves, definitely not. as - the airwaves, definitely not. as soon as the health secretary gets

into a room with me, whether that is conciliation or a one—to—one, i will not be found wanting in my negotiations. 50 not be found wanting in my negotiations.— not be found wanting in my neuotiations. , ., ., negotiations. so you would give some round on negotiations. so you would give some ground on the — negotiations. so you would give some ground on the original _ negotiations. so you would give some ground on the original demand? - negotiations. so you would give some ground on the original demand? i'm l ground on the original demand? i'm not ground on the original demand? in not saying i wouldn't, and during the week, i won't dig in if he doesn't take in.— the week, i won't dig in if he doesn't take in. ., ., u, doesn't take in. you are indicating some flexibility? _ doesn't take in. you are indicating some flexibility? look— doesn't take in. you are indicating some flexibility? look what - doesn't take in. you are indicating - some flexibility? look what happened in scotland, when _ some flexibility? look what happened in scotland, when the _ some flexibility? look what happened in scotland, when the first _ some flexibility? look what happened in scotland, when the first minister . in scotland, when the first minister asked to with me. it was on friday, and by friday evening, we had suspended our strike dates for scotland. again, that is very much demonstrating we are not what digging in. that is not what nurses do. come on, let's have the discussions and the negotiation. in discussions and the negotiation. in scotland, there was a less generous offer, you are saying that he would accept less than you have been asking for for the strikes? i’m asking for for the strikes? i'm sa in: , asking for for the strikes? i'm saying. come _ asking for for the strikes? i'm saying, come to _ asking for for the strikes? i�*rn saying, come to the table and let's have the discussion.— have the discussion. stuart rose, ou have have the discussion. stuart rose, you have had _

have the discussion. stuart rose, you have had to _ have the discussion. stuart rose, you have had to deal— have the discussion. stuart rose, you have had to deal with - have the discussion. stuart rose, l you have had to deal with industrial action, how do you think the government is handling this? i was government is handling this? i was married to a _ government is handling this? i was married to a nurse _ government is handling this? i was married to a nurse for _ government is handling this? i was married to a nurse for 25 _ government is handling this? i was married to a nurse for 25 years, i know_ married to a nurse for 25 years, i know how — married to a nurse for 25 years, i know how nurses work hard and how tough _ know how nurses work hard and how tough it _ know how nurses work hard and how tough it is _ know how nurses work hard and how tough it is i— know how nurses work hard and how tough it is. i did a report several years— tough it is. i did a report several years ago. — tough it is. i did a report several years ago. i_ tough it is. i did a report several years ago, i was on the front line and recognise the tough times we -ot. and recognise the tough times we got i'm _ and recognise the tough times we got i'm a — and recognise the tough times we got. i'm a great believer that each of the _ got. i'm a great believer that each of the issues that we have got needs to he _ of the issues that we have got needs to be dealt— of the issues that we have got needs to be dealt with on a one—to—one basis _ to be dealt with on a one—to—one basis each— to be dealt with on a one—to—one basis. each needs to be looked at on its own— basis. each needs to be looked at on its own merits. the nurses have a case _ its own merits. the nurses have a case it _ its own merits. the nurses have a case it lets— its own merits. the nurses have a case. it lets look at it in a slightly— case. it lets look at it in a slightly different way. we've had four events in the last ten years. we had — four events in the last ten years. we had covid, the war in ukraine in the global— we had covid, the war in ukraine in the global financial crisis, and we had brexit — the global financial crisis, and we had brexit. these things conspire to make _ had brexit. these things conspire to make very— had brexit. these things conspire to make very tough times for us. we can't _ make very tough times for us. we can't solve — make very tough times for us. we can't solve the whole problem in one minute _ can't solve the whole problem in one minute my— can't solve the whole problem in one minute. my answer would be, can't solve the whole problem in one minute. my answerwould be, let's sit down, _ minute. my answerwould be, let's sit down, let's negotiate, but let's do what _ sit down, let's negotiate, but let's do what is — sit down, let's negotiate, but let's do what is possible. can sit down, let's negotiate, but let's do what is possible.— do what is possible. can i ask you about something _ do what is possible. can i ask you about something else, _ do what is possible. can i ask you about something else, briefly. i do what is possible. can i ask you i about something else, briefly. asda has lots of pharmacies around the country. a lot of pharmacies are reporting shortages of antibiotics to cope with stress a. is there a

real shortage?— to cope with stress a. is there a real shortage? there is a shortage, we are thinner _ real shortage? there is a shortage, we are thinner than _ real shortage? there is a shortage, we are thinner than we _ real shortage? there is a shortage, we are thinner than we would i real shortage? there is a shortage, we are thinner than we would like, | we are thinner than we would like, we are thinner than we would like, we are _ we are thinner than we would like, we are coping. we have 250 pharmacies. it's ok. what we need to make _ pharmacies. it's ok. what we need to make sure _ pharmacies. it's ok. what we need to make sure that people are reassured that those _ make sure that people are reassured that those stocks are available. we will get _ that those stocks are available. we will get through it. we that those stocks are available. we will get through it.— will get through it. we will ask the nhs box about _ will get through it. we will ask the nhs box about that. _ will get through it. we will ask the nhs box about that. as _ will get through it. we will ask the nhs box about that. as an - will get through it. we will ask the i nhs box about that. as an historian, sebag, a lot of people are saying it is decline, a moment of disruption, like the 70s, is that right? i like the 705, is that right? i don't. the crisis of the 705 was systemic, — don't. the crisis of the 705 was 5y5temic, about _ don't. the crisis of the 705 was 5y5temic, about the _ don't. the crisis of the 705 was 5y5temic, about the way - don't. the crisis of the 705 wa5| 5y5temic, about the way briti5h industry— 5y5temic, about the way briti5h industry worked. _ 5y5temic, about the way briti5h industry worked. thi5 _ 5y5temic, about the way briti5h industry worked. this is - 5y5temic, about the way briti5h industry worked. this is a - 5y5temic, about the way briti5hi industry worked. this is a much indu5try worked. this is a much bigger— industry worked. this is a much bigger crisis. _ industry worked. this is a much bigger crisis. a _ industry worked. this is a much bigger crisis, a crisis— indu5try worked. this is a much bigger crisis, a crisis of- industry worked. this is a much bigger crisis, a crisis of the i bigger cri5i5, a crisis of the comfort— bigger crisis, a crisis of the comfort democracies, i bigger crisis, a crisis of the comfort democracies, as i bigger crisis, a crisis of the comfort democracies, a5 ii bigger crisis, a crisis of the i comfort democracies, as i call bigger crisis, a crisis of the - comfort democracies, as i call them. the expectation _ comfort democracies, as i call them. the expectation is _ comfort democracies, as i call them. the expectation is that _ comfort democracies, as i call them. the expectation is that our— the expectation is that our countries _ the expectation is that our countries will— the expectation is that our countries will be _ the expectation is that our countries will be able i the expectation is that our countries will be able to i the expectation is that our- countries will be able to afford pay ri5e5 countries will be able to afford pay rises and _ countries will be able to afford pay rises and benefits _ countries will be able to afford pay rises and benefits for— countries will be able to afford pay rises and benefits for people. in i rises and benefits for people. in the end. — rises and benefits for people. in the end. this _ rises and benefits for people. in the end, this is _ rises and benefits for people. in the end, this is something - rises and benefits for people. in| the end, this is something faced rises and benefits for people. in i the end, this is something faced by all of— the end, this is something faced by all of the _ the end, this is something faced by all of the democracies _ the end, this is something faced by all of the democracies in _ the end, this is something faced by all of the democracies in europe i the end, this is something faced byl all of the democracies in europe and the states. — all of the democracies in europe and the states. and _ all of the democracies in europe and the states, and america. _ all of the democracies in europe and the states, and america. it- all of the democracies in europe and the states, and america. it is- the states, and america. it is something _ the states, and america. it is something we _ the states, and america. it is something we have _ the states, and america. it is something we have to - the states, and america. it is something we have to sort i the states, and america. it is. something we have to sort out, the states, and america. it is- 5omething we have to sort out, or it

something we have to sort out, or it will threaten — something we have to sort out, or it will threaten our— something we have to sort out, or it will threaten our democracy - something we have to sort out, or it will threaten our democracy is - will threaten our democracy is themselves _ will threaten our democracy is themselves.— will threaten our democracy is themselves. , , ~ themselves. very interesting. we will ick themselves. very interesting. we will pick that _ themselves. very interesting. we will pick that up _ themselves. very interesting. we will pick that up with _ themselves. very interesting. we will pick that up with the - themselves. very interesting. we will pick that up with the foreign l will pick that up with the foreign secretary later. hard work for you guysin secretary later. hard work for you guys in the next 50 minutes or so. let's talk about the strikes. nurses in england, wales and northern ireland are due to strike on the 15th on the 20th of december. 10,000 ambulance workers, including paramedics, are out in most of england and wales on the 21st and 28th of december. any minute, we will hear from the nhs. we will fill in the rest of a not very happy calendar. look at this for the rest of the month. border staff will strike for eight days over christmas and new year, posties are taking action on various days through december as are rail workers. add to that teachers, university staff, baggage handlers, bus drivers and driving examiners and you can see we're in for a difficult few weeks. if you want to get anything done, december the 12th might be the best day. professor steve powis is here in the studio.

what did you make, hearing pat cullen? do you think there's a chance the strikes might be called off? ., , chance the strikes might be called off? . , . . ., off? that is a matter for the secretary — off? that is a matter for the secretary of _ off? that is a matter for the secretary of state, - off? that is a matter for the secretary of state, for i off? that is a matter for the secretary of state, for pat l off? that is a matter for the i secretary of state, for pat and the unions. for us in the nhs, we have been preparing for the industrial action that begins this week for some time. we are working hard to make sure that we keep our patients safe on strike days, and that we continue to provide the best possible care that we can under the circumstances. we have asked local hospitals to contact patients in advance, if care is going to be disrupted. the message is clear. if you don't hear that your procedure or appointment is going to be rescheduled, please do turn up as you normally would. you rescheduled, please do turn up as you normally would.— you normally would. you are a clinician yourself. _ you normally would. you are a clinician yourself. you - you normally would. you are a clinician yourself. you don't i you normally would. you are a i clinician yourself. you don't want to get into the politics of the strike, but do you understand what your colleagues at the nhs feel they have to walk out? 5taiiii your colleagues at the nhs feel they have to walk out?— have to walk out? staff are under hue have to walk out? staff are under huge pressure — have to walk out? staff are under huge pressure at _ have to walk out? staff are under huge pressure at the _ have to walk out? staff are under huge pressure at the moment. i have to walk out? staff are under. huge pressure at the moment. they have had a really difficult three years with the pandemic. i know many

of them will have agonised over whether they should tick the box for industrial action or not. 0urjob is to support them, whether they are taking action or not. pay is a matter for the independent pay review bodies, a matterfor the government. i, like everybody else, would like these disputes to be resolved as quickly as possible. many of our viewers will be really worried about what might lie ahead. people are already waiting a long time, not always getting the care that they would like. will patients be safe in hospital on the strike days? this be safe in hospital on the strike da s? �* , be safe in hospital on the strike da 5? �* , be safe in hospital on the strike da s? �* , ., be safe in hospital on the strike da s7�*, . .,“ be safe in hospital on the strike da s? a ., ., ~ ., days? as i say, we are working hard to ensure that _ days? as i say, we are working hard to ensure that patients _ days? as i say, we are working hard to ensure that patients are - days? as i say, we are working hard to ensure that patients are safe, i to ensure that patients are safe, everybody in the nhs wants patients to be safe. emergency services will be maintained. so if you have a life—threatening condition, please do continue to call 999. for non—life—threatening conditions, 111, online should be your first port of call. the majority of hospitals in england are not affected by strike action this thursday. in primary care that is general practice, dentistry,

pharmacy, they are unaffected. let me be clear, our services will be disrupted on thursday.— me be clear, our services will be disrupted on thursday. what that means, disrupted on thursday. what that means. when _ disrupted on thursday. what that means, when you _ disrupted on thursday. what that means, when you talk _ disrupted on thursday. what that means, when you talk about i disrupted on thursday. what that means, when you talk about the l means, when you talk about the health service, disruption means patients suffering. and it might mean people suffering quite badly, unnecessarily. is it the case that people might lose their lives as a result of the strikes?— people might lose their lives as a result of the strikes? nobody at the nhs wants that. _ result of the strikes? nobody at the nhs wants that. nobody _ result of the strikes? nobody at the nhs wants that. nobody wants i result of the strikes? nobody at the | nhs wants that. nobody wants that, but let's be clear. _ nhs wants that. nobody wants that, but let's be clear. you _ nhs wants that. nobody wants that, but let's be clear. you are _ nhs wants that. nobody wants that, but let's be clear. you are saying i but let's be clear. you are saying services will be disrupted, if the health services disrupted, that could jeopardise lives. we health services disrupted, that could jeopardise lives. we have been workinu could jeopardise lives. we have been working hard. _ could jeopardise lives. we have been working hard, talking _ could jeopardise lives. we have been working hard, talking with _ could jeopardise lives. we have been working hard, talking with union i working hard, talking with union representatives at national level and local level to ensure there emergency services remain open. also, other key services. for instance, kidney dialysis and chemotherapy. i am confident all staff in the nhs care deeply about patience and will want to keep them safe and protected. [30 patience and will want to keep them safe and protected.— safe and protected. do you have an idea of how — safe and protected. do you have an idea of how many _ safe and protected. do you have an idea of how many procedures i safe and protected. do you have an | idea of how many procedures might safe and protected. do you have an i idea of how many procedures might be cancelled? there are all sorts of

numbers out there, a suggestion there might be 15,000 procedures that don't go ahead. is there a number you can share with people? i don't think it is possible to put a number on it. we need to wait until the action occurs on thursday as he what disruption occurs. as i said, the majority of hospitals in england are not being affected. in the majority of hospitals in england are not being affected.— are not being affected. in terms of the potential— are not being affected. in terms of the potential in _ are not being affected. in terms of the potential in the _ are not being affected. in terms of the potential in the next _ are not being affected. in terms of the potential in the next few i the potential in the next few months, it is possible that the strikes will go on for many months. we know already that waiting list backlogs and ambulance waiting times are already at record levels in many cases. are you worried about the potential impact of this beyond this week? we potential impact of this beyond this week? ~ ., , ., ., potential impact of this beyond this week? . , , ., ,, week? we have been making progress in the backlog — week? we have been making progress in the backlog caused _ week? we have been making progress in the backlog caused by _ week? we have been making progress in the backlog caused by the _ in the backlog caused by the pandemic. we had ourfirst milestone of reducing rates below two years in the summer of this year. our ambition is to reduce waiting times below 18 months for the spring. that could be knocked off course, and

industrial action is one thing, that could knock it off course. but it could knock it off course. but it could be a significant wave of covid, a new variant, and we could see a high peak of flu. there is trouble brewing and we have to see how we get on. if trouble brewing and we have to see how we get on-_ trouble brewing and we have to see how we get on. if you are being open with us, the — how we get on. if you are being open with us, the nhs— how we get on. if you are being open with us, the nhs is— how we get on. if you are being open with us, the nhs is getting _ how we get on. if you are being open with us, the nhs is getting back- how we get on. if you are being open with us, the nhs is getting back to i with us, the nhs is getting back to normal, recovering from covid, but it could be knocked off by industrial action? the it could be knocked off by industrial action? ,, , industrial action? the nhs is under hue industrial action? the nhs is under huge pressure. _ industrial action? the nhs is under huge pressure, like _ industrial action? the nhs is under huge pressure, like many - industrial action? the nhs is under huge pressure, like many health i huge pressure, like many health services around the world. why? we are seeing record demand. in november, we saw more attendances at a&e that we have ever seen in that months. we are still dealing with covid. we have 6000 patients in hospital in england with covid, and we are entering our fifth wave of the year. at times, we had up to 15,000 patients with 19. flu has come early, last week we have seen a 1500% increase in those in hospital

with that. and we had an increase in things like group a strep you with that. and we had an increase in things like group a strep— things like group a strep you are still on alert _ things like group a strep you are still on alert for _ things like group a strep you are still on alert for a _ things like group a strep you are still on alert for a new _ things like group a strep you are still on alert for a new variant i things like group a strep you are still on alert for a new variant of| still on alert for a new variant of covid, many people will remember you at the briefings, fielding questions from the public and journalists. are you worried about another wave? in the pandemic 5tarted, you worried about another wave? in the pandemic started, i remember saying to a colleague that this will be five years getting to the effects of covid. clearly, we had those first few waves and then great scientific advances, the vaccines and therapeutics, it has meant it is and therapeutics, it has meant it is a less severe disease. but it can still affect people seriously. as the new virus adapts to new human hosts, you get waves of infection. we are entering the fifth wave of this year. eventually, we think it will become a seasonal infection, likely in the winter. but that hasn't happened yet. of course, like

any natural disaster, in a sense, there is a clear up operation and it will take several years to get on top of the backlog and the destruction that occurred because of the virus. ., ., ,, , ~ , the virus. you mentioned strep a. is there a shortage _ the virus. you mentioned strep a. is there a shortage of _ the virus. you mentioned strep a. is there a shortage of antibiotics, i there a shortage of antibiotics, some families are really worried about this, some children have died as a result of the infection. we have heard from stuart rose, that a huge business like asda isn't able to get the supplies they want. is there a shortage of antibiotics? let me say fir5t there a shortage of antibiotics? let me say first that it is not unusual to see cases of strep a at this sort of level. we have seen it in previous years. what is unusual is that we are seeing earlier, the start of winter, and we usually see a peak at the end of winter. that is why we have alerted parents and health care professionals, to watch out for symptoms.— health care professionals, to watch out for symptoms. what should people watch for? let's _ out for symptoms. what should people watch for? let's be _ out for symptoms. what should people watch for? let's be clear, _ out for symptoms. what should people watch for? let's be clear, with - watch for? let's be clear, with parents in particular.— watch for? let's be clear, with parents in particular. group a strep is a mild infection _ parents in particular. group a strep is a mild infection for— parents in particular. group a strep is a mild infection for the _

parents in particular. group a strep is a mild infection for the majority l is a mild infection for the majority of children, nonspecific symptoms like a sore throat. you could develop scarlett fever, you get a widespread rash, like sandpaper, red and bumpy tone, so—called strawberry tongue. the best thing is to look online, there are a list of symptoms and it gives advice on the circumstances in which you should contact professionals. antibiotics are typical treatment for scarlett fever. we have plenty of antibiotics. we have been asking people to prescribe them earlier. that means that pharmacies have needed extra supplies, so the government is working with wholesalers to make sure they get through. is there are not a shortage? you say there is enough in the big picture. we know from families coming to the press and saying they cannot get it, we know it from social media. some prices spiking, ordinary penicillin costs going through the roof. if it is a shortage in real life, even if there is not a shortage in the big

picture, had you fix it? big there is not a shortage in the big picture, had you fix it? by working with wholesalers, _ picture, had you fix it? by working with wholesalers, the _ picture, had you fix it? by working with wholesalers, the department| picture, had you fix it? by working i with wholesalers, the department of health working with wholesalers who supply drugs to pharmacies. we have asked our clinicians to have a slightly lower threshold for use of antibiotics because have increased. that means we have to restock pharmacies. that means we have to restock pharmacies-— that means we have to restock harmacies. �* , ., _, ., pharmacies. are you confident that every family. _ pharmacies. are you confident that every family. every _ pharmacies. are you confident that every family, every child _ pharmacies. are you confident that every family, every child who i pharmacies. are you confident that| every family, every child who needs antibiotics will be able to get it this winter? we antibiotics will be able to get it this winter?— antibiotics will be able to get it this winter? ~ ., ., ~ ., this winter? we are working hard, the department — this winter? we are working hard, the department of— this winter? we are working hard, the department of health - this winter? we are working hard, the department of health is i this winter? we are working hard, i the department of health is working hard, to ensure supplies come out from wholesalers into pharmacies. we want to reassure people, this is a mild infection. the vast —— a mild infection in the vast majority of cases. unfortunately we have had the tragic death in the last few weeks. how quickly will you be able to get the antibiotics available?— the antibiotics available? supply chains work _ the antibiotics available? supply chains work really _ the antibiotics available? supply chains work really well. - the antibiotics available? supply chains work really well. i - the antibiotics available? supply chains work really well. i expect | the antibiotics available? supply i chains work really well. i expect he would see supplies coming out to pharmacies literally as we speak. in

pharmacies literally as we speak. in the next few days? there _ pharmacies literally as we speak. in the next few days? there is - pharmacies literally as we speak. in the next few days? there is a i pharmacies literally as we speak. in | the next few days? there is a supply chain can assist _ the next few days? there is a supply chain can assist in _ the next few days? there is a supply chain can assist in place, _ the next few days? there is a supply chain can assist in place, the - chain can assist in place, the department of health, as i say, working with wholesalers to get drugs out. $55 working with wholesalers to get dru~s out. w ,, working with wholesalers to get dru~s out. a i. ., working with wholesalers to get drus out. �* , . ., drugs out. as you are here, i want to ask about _ drugs out. as you are here, i want to ask about the _ drugs out. as you are here, i want to ask about the general— drugs out. as you are here, i want to ask about the general state i drugs out. as you are here, i want to ask about the general state of l to ask about the general state of the health service. we all know and you have explained really clearly the reason why there is so much pressure. as someone who has been adopted for a long time, do you worry about the way things are going? —— a doctor. someone who died outside a hospital in an ambulance because they could not get into a&e, a few years ago, it would have been a few years ago, it would have been a huge scandal. politicians would have been under enormous pressure to fix it, there would have been a massive outcry. now we are hearing these desperate stories fairly regularly. forsomeone these desperate stories fairly regularly. for someone with your experience, how do you describe the state of things right now? it is state of things right now? it is disturbing- — state of things right now? it is disturbing. the _ state of things right now? it 3 disturbing. the health pressure is under huge pressure. we have been

planning for winterfor under huge pressure. we have been planning for winter for many months. we have been increasing capacity with around 7000 bed equivalents, that includes things like so—called virtual wards in the community where we can provide treatment and care at home that previously would have been provided in a hospital bed. we are increasing the number of 111 call handlers this winter and introducing local system control centres to manage pressures between how systems and social care. we are putting on systems for the frail and elderly who have a full can be managed at home and not have to go into hospital. home and not have to go into hosital. ., ., , ., home and not have to go into hosital. ., . , ., , hospital. you are trying all sorts of wa s hospital. you are trying all sorts of ways to _ hospital. you are trying all sorts of ways to manage _ hospital. you are trying all sorts of ways to manage the - hospital. you are trying all sorts| of ways to manage the pressure. hospital. you are trying all sorts i of ways to manage the pressure. you cannot get the staff to deal with demand. how can we confront the problem with the workforce? is demand. how can we confront the problem with the workforce? is that the heart of — problem with the workforce? is that the heart of the _ problem with the workforce? is that the heart of the problem? - problem with the workforce? is that the heart of the problem? the i problem with the workforce? is that the heart of the problem? the nhs| the heart of the problem? the nhs needs more staff can absolutely. we have 100,000 vacancies at the moment in the nhs in england. if you

compare that with neighbouring european countries, we have fewer doctors per head of the population. the government has asked as to produce a long—term workforce plan. we are working on that and hope to publish it in the spring. that will weigh out what we think we need. if you ask me personally when it comes to doctors, i think we need more medical school places. as a first step we should increase the number of medical student places by around 1000 to 2000. i would deliberately create those places at existing or new medical schools in parts of the country where we have staff shortages because we know people tend to put roots down in areas where they train. there is a growing consensus on this. the chancellor, when he was chair of the health and social care select committee called for an increase in medical school numbers and the shadow health secretary, who i know you will be talking to later, has also called for an increase. i think there is an opportunity to work to increase our trained workforce here in the uk.

perhaps that is the long—term change that will make the difference. yes. that will make the difference. yes, we need to — that will make the difference. yes, we need to retain _ that will make the difference. yes, we need to retain staff, _ that will make the difference. yes, we need to retain staff, we - that will make the difference. yes we need to retain staff, we can recruit internationally but ultimately we need to train all staff in this country.— ultimately we need to train all staff in this country. thank you so much for being — staff in this country. thank you so much for being with _ staff in this country. thank you so much for being with us _ staff in this country. thank you so much for being with us this i staff in this country. thank you so i much for being with us this morning. lots to diejust much for being with us this morning. lots to die just in. let's get back over to our panel. pat cullen from the royal college of nurses it is here with us. he said the action puts the recovery from coronavirus at risk, what he have to say? coronavirus at risk, what he have to sa ? ~ ., coronavirus at risk, what he have to sa ? ~ . ., _ coronavirus at risk, what he have to sa? . ., , ., say? what he did not say is that the one da of say? what he did not say is that the one day of action _ say? what he did not say is that the one day of action that _ say? what he did not say is that the one day of action that nurses - say? what he did not say is that the one day of action that nurses are i one day of action that nurses are going to take on thursday has not created the 7.2 million people sitting on waiting lists. the nhs has been in crisis for many, many

years. has not been caused by nurses. what sort of a state would we be in if we did not have nurses working additional unpaid hours, working additional unpaid hours, working every hour they can get in the day? what are we doing with those people? we are paying than the lowest possible wage we can. international evidence brought out by the 0ecd last week shows and this is despicable, uk nurses are paid the lowest in europe. what way is that to run a country and toward those people? they kept us going during a pandemic. what those people? they kept us going during a pandemic.— those people? they kept us going during a pandemic. what do you say to politicians — during a pandemic. what do you say to politicians and _ during a pandemic. what do you say to politicians and some _ during a pandemic. what do you say to politicians and some of— during a pandemic. what do you say to politicians and some of our- to politicians and some of our viewers who think we would love nurses to have a very significant pay increases but the country is hard up, there is not the cash, what do you say to that?— do you say to that? nurses are not creed do you say to that? nurses are not greedy people. _ do you say to that? nurses are not greedy people. they _ do you say to that? nurses are not greedy people, they are _ do you say to that? nurses are not greedy people, they are not. i do you say to that? nurses are not greedy people, they are not. a i do you say to that? nurses are not i greedy people, they are not. a nurse on £7,000 a year living in central london needs to be able to feed children can send them to school and pay travel to go to work. —— 27,000

a year. they are not asking for an incredible pay rise, they are asking just to be able to make ends meet. that is what i would say to them. if we want to retain nurses in the system we had got, to do the things that stephen talked about, we're going to have to do something. what going to have to do something. what ou had to going to have to do something. what you had to say _ going to have to do something. what you had to say about _ going to have to do something. what you had to say about that? public—sector bay has not kept pace with private sector pay. there are some _ with private sector pay. there are some sectors of the public sector that are — some sectors of the public sector that are underpaid. nurses should -et that are underpaid. nurses should get paid _ that are underpaid. nurses should get paid more money. how much? how do we _ get paid more money. how much? how do we do _ get paid more money. how much? how do we do that? you have had from steve _ do we do that? you have had from steve the — do we do that? you have had from steve the national health service is facing _ steve the national health service is facing yet _ steve the national health service is facing yet another crisis. it is not a new_ facing yet another crisis. it is not a new crisis _ facing yet another crisis. it is not a new crisis. you had too many people — a new crisis. you had too many people trying to come in and too few people _ people trying to come in and too few people coming out. too many bureaucrats in the middle and we have _ bureaucrats in the middle and we have not— bureaucrats in the middle and we have not sorted the system out. we have not sorted the system out. we have to _ have not sorted the system out. we have to do _ have not sorted the system out. we have to do that. pat's people are part of— have to do that. pat's people are part of the — have to do that. pat's people are part of the problem. they are trying to sort— part of the problem. they are trying to sort it _ part of the problem. they are trying to sort it out. we do have an issue,

let's— to sort it out. we do have an issue, let's move — to sort it out. we do have an issue, let's move to— to sort it out. we do have an issue, let's move to a slightly different place _ let's move to a slightly different place i— let's move to a slightly different place. i am let's move to a slightly different place. lam rather optimistic let's move to a slightly different place. i am rather optimistic when you need — place. i am rather optimistic when you need to — place. i am rather optimistic when you need to be optimistic as a retailer— you need to be optimistic as a retailer that we may be passing the worst _ retailer that we may be passing the worst part — retailer that we may be passing the worst part of this current crisis. what _ worst part of this current crisis. what makes you think that? we know mathematically _ what makes you think that? we know mathematically inflation _ what makes you think that? we know mathematically inflation will - what makes you think that? we know mathematically inflation will come i mathematically inflation will come down _ mathematically inflation will come down next year. we know we will not have the _ down next year. we know we will not have the same sort of recession we will have _ have the same sort of recession we will have had cause by the global financial— will have had cause by the global financial crisis. a shortage of labour~ — financial crisis. a shortage of labour. the opportunity with interest _ labour. the opportunity with interest rates beginning to come down _ interest rates beginning to come down and — interest rates beginning to come down and a government trying to get to a soft _ down and a government trying to get to a soft landing, we could get through— to a soft landing, we could get through this. it might sound like me saying. _ through this. it might sound like me saying, hold on. i through this. it might sound like me saying, hold on. lam not through this. it might sound like me saying, hold on. i am not saying that _ saying, hold on. i am not saying that be — saying, hold on. i am not saying that. be fair, take along saying, hold on. i am not saying that. be fair, take a long view can help the _ that. be fair, take a long view can help the country. we have all got to help the country. we have all got to help each _ help the country. we have all got to help each other at the moment. we could _ help each other at the moment. we could come — help each other at the moment. we could come out late summer to s —— is a recession— could come out late summer to s —— is a recession and we thought we might— is a recession and we thought we might have had.— might have had. lots of work is auoin on might have had. lots of work is going on strike, _ might have had. lots of work is going on strike, including i might have had. lots of work isj going on strike, including those might have had. lots of work is i going on strike, including those at asda, who the gmb says is paid less

than other supermarket workers. they might hear from you saying it is going to be fine, they might ink it is a bit rich. i going to be fine, they might ink it is a bit rich-— is a bit rich. i am saying it will be difficult — is a bit rich. i am saying it will be difficult but _ is a bit rich. i am saying it will be difficult but less _ is a bit rich. i am saying it will be difficult but less mad. i is a bit rich. i am saying it will be difficult but less mad. we| is a bit rich. i am saying it will- be difficult but less mad. we need to be _ be difficult but less mad. we need to be thoughtful about what we are asking _ to be thoughtful about what we are asking for~ — to be thoughtful about what we are asking for. i see it, front line, in asking for. i see it, front line, in a step— asking for. i see it, front line, in a step we — asking for. i see it, front line, in a step we are _ asking for. i see it, front line, in a step we are dealing with many customers— a step we are dealing with many customers who are finding it a struggle _ customers who are finding it a struggle. —— in as dad. people having— struggle. —— in as dad. people having to— struggle. —— in as dad. people having to cut back and make decisions _ having to cut back and make decisions about what to spend money on what _ decisions about what to spend money on what they cannot. let's look after— on what they cannot. let's look after the — on what they cannot. let's look after the children and have a nice christmas — after the children and have a nice christmas. let's cut back on luxuries _ christmas. let's cut back on luxuries. they are having to do that _ luxuries. they are having to do that 0ur— luxuries. they are having to do that. our customers are something like £150 _ that. our customers are something like £150 a — that. our customers are something like £150 a week worse off than this time last— like £150 a week worse off than this time last year. we do not want to put petrol— time last year. we do not want to put petrol on fire.— time last year. we do not want to put petrol on fire. doom and gloom can sometimes _ put petrol on fire. doom and gloom can sometimes talk _ put petrol on fire. doom and gloom can sometimes talk you _ put petrol on fire. doom and gloom can sometimes talk you into - can sometimes talk you into something even worse. the sunday times has described this period of industrial action as a new lockdown. essentially the country is going to

be brought to a standstill, they claim. how you think the public might react to a prolonged series of strikes? there seems to be a lot of sympathy for nurses. we are in a period where almost everywhere you look there is industrial action on the way. are you concerned about keeping the public on side? i the way. are you concerned about keeping the public on side? i would never take the _ keeping the public on side? i would never take the public _ keeping the public on side? i would never take the public for _ keeping the public on side? i would never take the public for granted, l never take the public for granted, thatis never take the public for granted, that is the first thing. nurses do not take the public for granted. i am concerned for the public, the public that cannot get decent services, services they are entitled to. that is where my concern is. what is the nurses strike about? not about lining pockets with gold, it is about standing at the patients and wanting them to get a decent service and filling the 50,000 vacant posts we had another health secretary can tackle the waiting list and get a 7.2 million people seenin list and get a 7.2 million people seen in the right time and the time they deserve so they can cut back to

contribute to the economy and society. that is what my concerns are about. i will never take the public for granted, certainly, as a nurse, and we will not through the strike either.— nurse, and we will not through the strike either. ~ ., , ., ., ~ ., strike either. what you make hearing the arguments _ strike either. what you make hearing the arguments going _ strike either. what you make hearing the arguments going on? _ strike either. what you make hearing the arguments going on? i _ strike either. what you make hearing the arguments going on? i am i strike either. what you make hearing the arguments going on? i am the i strike either. what you make hearing. the arguments going on? i am the son of a doctor and — the arguments going on? i am the son of a doctor and i _ the arguments going on? i am the son of a doctor and i always _ the arguments going on? i am the son of a doctor and i always support i of a doctor and i always support nurses— of a doctor and i always support nurses and _ of a doctor and i always support nurses and doctors. i do think we need _ nurses and doctors. i do think we need to— nurses and doctors. i do think we need to look at this in a less short—term market one of the great shortcomings of democracies in our present— shortcomings of democracies in our present media world that we let everything in the very short—term. populations are rising, older people are living _ populations are rising, older people are living longer. the nhs is a i940s — are living longer. the nhs is a 19405 bureaucracy in the 21st—century. we need to do something we are very bad at which is to plan— something we are very bad at which is to plan ahead for higher migration, older populations. that means— migration, older populations. that means a _ migration, older populations. that means a new look at the nhs, it is a sacred _ means a new look at the nhs, it is a sacred organisation, almost our equivalent the church in a 21st—century england. we need to look at _ 21st—century england. we need to look at it — 21st—century england. we need to look at it. it is very hard to

reform _ look at it. it is very hard to reform a _ look at it. it is very hard to reform a sacred institution. that is what _ reform a sacred institution. that is what we _ reform a sacred institution. that is what we need to do, look ahead and think— what we need to do, look ahead and think differently about the nhs which _ think differently about the nhs which in — think differently about the nhs which in the future will not be able to do— which in the future will not be able to do everything. which in the future will not be able to do everything-— to do everything. talking of a sacred institution, _ to do everything. talking of a sacred institution, let's i to do everything. talking of a sacred institution, let's talk | to do everything. talking of a i sacred institution, let's talk about the royal family. you will not have missed this morning either in the newspapers or leather netflix, social media everywhere this week, harry and meghan telling their version of events. you are familiar with the windsor family. we have also written about the history of the whole world through families dynasties. 0ne the whole world through families dynasties. one thing you explore is how powerful men and women deal with children. sometimes you say they will find a way to humiliate them. the thing that is what is happening? are harry and meghan humiliating the royal family? i do are harry and meghan humiliating the royal family?— royal family? i do not think so. the programme — royal family? i do not think so. the programme is _ royal family? i do not think so. the programme is actually _ royal family? i do not think so. the programme is actually very - programme is actually very unexciting, somewhat boring. though it was very portentous, it was deeply and momentous. i have written

this book looking at world history through genesis, many of them royal. i think to have a sense of perspective, when you look at the optimum family in history, for example, when they had a rebel princely day off and i am afraid brought out though string or trampled them with elephant heaves. i think actually, when one looks at prince harry and an la mansion, and less red carpet galas, and a reality show on netflix, i think he has not really got that much to complain about. —— endless red—carpet galas. interesting. should he be dealt with more harshly in modern times? i think it is a fluffy reality show. i know the media go absolutely crazy about it. actually, i think, when we

look at the monarchy today, in a strange constitution, it is the personification of democracy. we had a wonderful monarch in charles iii, a wonderful monarch in charles iii, a model of duty and service and thoughtfulness in many ways we are lucky to have him. i really think this rather unexciting netflix phenomenon will pass fast and i think it will make very little difference.— think it will make very little difference. . difference. have you watched it? i have not watched _ difference. have you watched it? i have not watched it. _ difference. have you watched it? i have not watched it. it _ difference. have you watched it? i have not watched it. it is - difference. have you watched it? i have not watched it. it is much i difference. have you watched it? i l have not watched it. it is much ado about— have not watched it. it is much ado about nothing. we should be grateful we have _ about nothing. we should be grateful we have got a monarchy because we could _ we have got a monarchy because we could have _ we have got a monarchy because we could have an elected head of state we should _ could have an elected head of state we should like less. he could just pass away— we should like less. he could just pass away and do something different. i haven't watched it, but the late monica has been our patron from 1953 in the royal college of nursing, and has added much to the lives of our

nurses. we are sincerely hoping that his royal highness will be our next patron. we have got the prince of wales cadets scheme in the royal couege wales cadets scheme in the royal college of nursing. what i would say is, when families become fractured, as a mental health nurse, the only way backers to try to rebuild, because there is nothing to be gained fractured families. families are stronger together, in my opinion. i think it is sad to see that fracture at the minute. bud opinion. i think it is sad to see that fracture at the minute. and for mental health. _ that fracture at the minute. and for mental health. elmiger _ that fracture at the minute. and for mental health. elmiger there i that fracture at the minute. and for mental health. elmiger there are i mental health. elmiger there are comparisons there. it mental health. elmiger there are comparisons there.— comparisons there. it will not be the end of— comparisons there. it will not be the end of that _ comparisons there. it will not be the end of that lively _ comparisons there. it will not be l the end of that lively conversation about harry and meghan. we have been keeping a close eye on the moon mission. nasa's artemis project — who'd forget the joy on the face of the mesa enginner howard hu when we talked to him a couple of weeks ago. the orion capsule is due to splash

down and i just quickly want to show you what it might look like. as it splashes back down to earth. we're hoping to check in with nasa next week, on our last show of the year next sunday. you'll be able to keep up with what's going on on the bbc online when it all happens later today. now back down to earth, and what, if anything, is the government going to do about these strikes? will they respond to pat cullen's challenge to talk to them? we have heard from the transport and health secretary, and now we have the foreign secretary. we can see him meeting president zelensky on his visit to kyiv. lovely to have you here. let's start with the strikes. your job as here. let's start with the strikes. yourjob as foreign secretary, but everybody is thinking about what lies ahead at the moment. we have heard very clearly from pat cullen this morning, get in the room and she will pause the strikes. why

don't you do that?— she will pause the strikes. why don't you do that? well, the “0b of union don't you do that? well, the “0b of leaders i don't you do that? well, the “0b of union leaders is i don't you do that? well, the “0b of union leaders is to i don't you do that? well, the “0b of union leaders is to negotiateh don't you do that? well, the job of union leaders is to negotiate on i union leaders is to negotiate on behalf of their members. they do an incredibly importantjob. but they negotiate with their employers. in this instance, the employer is the nhs. now, throughout my time in politics, i have always been told that with things like the nhs and these kind of things, people want to take the politics out. which is why we have things like the independent pay review body. and certainly now we hearing people want to bring the politics right back in. hang we hearing people want to bring the politics right back in.— politics right back in. hang on, it is a health _ politics right back in. hang on, it is a health secretary's _ politics right back in. hang on, it is a health secretary's job - politics right back in. hang on, it is a health secretary's job to - politics right back in. hang on, it| is a health secretary's job to sort this out. steve barclay himself is saying he would love to talk to the nurses, except he won't talk to them about pay. shouldn't he just get on with it so the public can be spared, the nhs can be spared, the disruption?— the nhs can be spared, the disruption? the nhs can be spared, the disrution? ,, .,, , disruption? steve has spoken with union leaders. _ disruption? steve has spoken with union leaders. my _ disruption? steve has spoken with union leaders. my understanding i disruption? steve has spoken with i union leaders. my understanding is, in the past. ultimately, salary negotiations are done between union

leaders on behalf of their members and their employer. in this instance, the nurses�* employers the nhs. we massively value what medical professionals do. my mother was a midwife throughout her whole working life. like millions of people around the country, we have close friends and army who are medical professionals. we recognise the importance of what they do. ultimately, we�*ve got to make sure that we are good custodians of the public purse. as i say, negotiations are done between the unions and employers. but are done between the unions and employers-_ are done between the unions and emlo ers. �* ., ., ,, employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting _ employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting in _ employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting in the _ employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting in the chair— employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting in the chair a - employers. but we have had the nhs director sitting in the chair a few - director sitting in the chair a few minutes ago, saying it is between the health secretary and the unions. we have the union saying we want to be in a room with a health secretary, steve barclay. steve barclay himself has written about this question in the newspapers this morning. you can�*t sit and say it has nothing to do with us, it�*s between the nhs and the unions. that is not the case. he between the nhs and the unions. that is not the case-— is not the case. he has met and soken is not the case. he has met and spoken with _ is not the case. he has met and spoken with union _ is not the case. he has met and spoken with union leaders. - is not the case. he has met and spoken with union leaders. he i is not the case. he has met and i spoken with union leaders. he has said he is willing to do so again. we have put a process in place, specifically for those salary

negotiations, for a reason. the independent review body has made a recommendation, the government has accepted it fully will stop that means that there will be a significant increase in pay, particularly for nurses at the start of their careers, on lower salaries. there will be a significant pay award. we recognise how tough it is for everybody. medical professionals included. we got to make sure we do this in a sustainable way. man? this in a sustainable way. many --eole this in a sustainable way. many peeple will _ this in a sustainable way. many people will think _ this in a sustainable way. many people will think that _ this in a sustainable way. many people will think that you - this in a sustainable way. many people will think that you have | this in a sustainable way. many l people will think that you have to make sure that the public and patients are despaired disruption. the independent process is a process thatjust makes recommendations to the government, and it is then up to ministers to decide what to do. the process so far has clearly failed. there is no agreement. the boss of the nurses union has said on this programme this morning that she would like to talk to the health secretary as soon as possible about pgy- secretary as soon as possible about pay. if he won�*t talk to her about pay, bring in acas. are you saying this morning that the government will not take up that offer? stews will not take up that offer? steve has written _ will not take up that offer? steve has written a _ will not take up that offer? steve

has written a piece _ will not take up that offer? steve has written a piece this _ will not take up that offer? steve has written a piece this morning, j has written a piece this morning, saying his door is open, we want to engage and talk. talk saying his door is open, we want to engage and talk-— saying his door is open, we want to engage and talk._ i | engage and talk. talk about pay? i am not going _ engage and talk. talk about pay? i am not going to — engage and talk. talk about pay? i am not going to go _ engage and talk. talk about pay? i am not going to go further - engage and talk. talk about pay? i am not going to go further than i am not going to go further than stephen timms of what he said, which was very clear. of course we want to engage and get this resolved. nurses and other medical professionals play and other medical professionals play an incredibly important role. that is why, last year, when there was a moratorium on pay rises across the public sector, we did actually put forward a pay increase for nurses, which they will have received. we want to make sure that the nhs continues to be a high functioning organisation. steve will speak. continues to be a high functioning organisation. steve willspeak. he said he will speak. but, ultimately, there is a system and i think we should respect that. imilli there is a system and i think we should respect that.— there is a system and i think we should respect that. will he speak about pay? _ should respect that. will he speak about pay? if _ should respect that. will he speak about pay? if he _ should respect that. will he speak about pay? if he will _ should respect that. will he speak about pay? if he will not - should respect that. will he speak about pay? if he will not speak- about pay? if he will not speak about pay? if he will not speak about pay, there will be disruption for millions of patients in the health service. that could mean people suffering. we have heard loud and clear that you care deeply about the nhs and you want it to work out.

but if the health secretary is not willing to discuss pay, as pat cullen has called for this morning, there will be severe disruption to there will be severe disruption to the nhs. ~ the nhs. well, the government has lans in the nhs. well, the government has plans in place _ the nhs. well, the government has plans in place to _ the nhs. well, the government has plans in place to try _ the nhs. well, the government has plans in place to try to _ the nhs. well, the government has plans in place to try to minimise - plans in place to try to minimise disruption. ultimately, what we want to see is for us to get through what is going to be an incredibly tough winterfor a whole load is going to be an incredibly tough winter for a whole load of reasons, including coronavirus and the backlog that causes. this once in a generation set of circumstances. we want to resolve that and we want to resolve that without strike action. as steve said, we will maintain an open door. we have processes for a reason, and i think stepping out of those, while sometimes seductive, this independent review bodies were created because there was a desire to depoliticise negotiations around these things. this to depoliticise negotiations around these things-— these things. as things stand, it doesnt these things. as things stand, it doesn't sound _ these things. as things stand, it doesn't sound like _ these things. as things stand, it doesn't sound like these - these things. as things stand, it doesn't sound like these strikes| these things. as things stand, it. doesn't sound like these strikes are doesn�*t sound like these strikes are going to be called off. but i am

sure it will be a busy couple of daysin sure it will be a busy couple of days in the run—up to those strikes. let�*s talk about your role as foreign secretary. people here are feeling the bitter cold full stop we know people in ukraine are now freezing, and it appears one of the appalling tactics of vladimir putin is literally to try to freeze people into submission. can ukraine consider calling an end to the conflict, a ceasefire, if russia does not carry out a complete withdrawal from does not carry out a complete withdrawalfrom its does not carry out a complete withdrawal from its territory, including parts of that attack in 2014? i including parts of that attack in 2014? ., �* 4' including parts of that attack in 2014? ., �* ~ , 2014? i don't think it is right, even as a _ 2014? i don't think it is right, even as a good _ 2014? i don't think it is right, even as a good friend - 2014? i don't think it is right, even as a good friend of - 2014? | don't think it is right, - even as a good friend of ukrainians, and i think the uk is seen internationally as one of ukraine�*s closest supporters, that is certainly the vibe i got when i went to kyiv a couple of weeks ago. even as close as we are, i don�*t think it is right for the uk or any other country to start dictating to the ukrainians what the terms of a peace settlement might be. it is their country that was invaded, it is their sons and daughters being killed. it is the infrastructure which is now being targeted. so,

ultimately, we do want to see this resolved. we want to see peace in ukraine. it needs to be meaningful. it needs to be an honest settlement. put needs to come to the table in good faith, and i am not sure he is there yet. —— putin. it also needs to be acceptable to the ukrainians, because they have suffered. i hear what you say about not telling you crave what you accept, but your predecessor as foreign secretary, liz truss, did say explicitly that ukraine could not accept anything that did not mean a complete withdrawal, including russia leaving that territory is that they are next in 2014. iii that territory is that they are next in 2014. , ., ., that territory is that they are next in 2014. y ., ., , ., ., in 2014. if you will not repeat that stance this _ in 2014. if you will not repeat that stance this morning, _ in 2014. if you will not repeat that stance this morning, it _ in 2014. if you will not repeat that stance this morning, it sounds - in 2014. if you will not repeat that | stance this morning, it sounds like a softening of the position. i get that there is _ a softening of the position. i get that there is a _ a softening of the position. i get that there is a desire _ a softening of the position. i get that there is a desire to - a softening of the position. i get that there is a desire to try to craft a narrative around this. i�*m craft a narrative around this. i'm t in: to craft a narrative around this. i'm trying to hear— craft a narrative around this. i'm trying to hear how you might explain to the public how this awful conflict could end. for to the public how this awful conflict could end.- to the public how this awful conflict could end. for me, i think it is really — conflict could end. for me, i think it is really straightforward. - conflict could end. for me, i think it is really straightforward. the i it is really straightforward. the message that we need to send across

the whole globe is that aggression does not pay off. that you cannot benefit by brutalising your neighbour. the un charter is clear, the international humanitarian law is therefore a reason. the ukrainians are defending notjust their own homeland, but really important international principles, which i will be discussing tomorrow in the speech i am giving. ultimately, putin demonstrably being unsuccessful is really, really im porta nt. unsuccessful is really, really important. but, as i say, i�*m going to maintain the discipline i sat on myself, not to dictate to the ukrainians, even implicitly, about what the conditions would be. it is clear that putin has to be seen to have been unsuccessful on this attack. why crackdown does he seem to live have to be seen to be held accountable? when i was over in kyiv, i met with representatives and ngos who talked

to me about rape and sexual violence being used as a conscious weapon of war on the battlefield. very credible allegations of children being forcibly removed from ukraine and sent to russia, to be adopted. there has to be accountability, that means the soldiers on the ground that are perpetrating these atrocities, and to the top. does that mean _ atrocities, and to the top. does that mean that _ atrocities, and to the top. does that mean that putin _ atrocities, and to the top. does that mean that putin should i atrocities, and to the top. does that mean that putin should be tried for war crimes?— for war crimes? short answer, there has to be accountability, _ for war crimes? short answer, there has to be accountability, including . has to be accountability, including vladimir putin. the mechanism by which we are doing this is one of the things we will look at. we have been very supportive of the international criminal court, but we recognise there may be other vehicles and we will work with our friends, including ukrainians in the international community, to look at what an accountability framework, effective accountability framework would look like. do effective accountability framework would look like.— effective accountability framework would look like. do you worry about where this might _ would look like. do you worry about where this might end _ would look like. do you worry about where this might end up? _ would look like. do you worry about where this might end up? the i would look like. do you worry about where this might end up? the nato| where this might end up? the nato chief said yesterday there was a possibility that he worried about of a wider conflict between nato and

russia. as our foreign secretary, is that on your mind? ian i have met with him on a number of occasions and i respect him greatly. nato have made it clear that we are a defensive alliance. nato has never threatened russia and is not doing so now. vladimir putin has tried to create this narrative, but the bottom line is that countries that joined nato do so voluntarily, there is no coercion, and the alliance is there to protect member states, not to threaten anybody else. so, there is no inherent need for nato to be drawn into a conflict, and in fact we are trying to ensure that does not happen. but, ultimately, it is vladimir putin that has used escalator language. he has threatened further imperial expansion, harking back to, and i

think simon made reference to this, his focus on russia�*s historical empire, and so it is him that as being the aggressor. is empire, and so it is him that as being the aggressor.— being the aggressor. is trying a threat to this _ being the aggressor. is trying a threat to this country? - being the aggressor. is trying a threat to this country? china i being the aggressor. is trying a threat to this country? china is| being the aggressor. is trying a i threat to this country? china is an incredibly challenging _ threat to this country? china is an incredibly challenging country i threat to this country? china is an incredibly challenging country on | incredibly challenging country on the international stage. it is potentially an important partner for goodin potentially an important partner for good in areas like climate change, for example. but it has shown in a number of instances that its behaviour is unacceptable. it�*s treatment of the uigher muslim population, refusalto treatment of the uigher muslim population, refusal to by two things it signed up to with regards to hong kong, some of the things it is doing in terms of international develop in. where we agree, we will look to work together, where we disagree, we will make that clear as well. that is a slightly _ will make that clear as well. that is a slightly different _ will make that clear as well. that is a slightly different message to something that your boss, the prime minister, said in the summer. very explicitly, even with a snazzy

graphics made up, saying china is our number one threat. there are people in your own party, backbenchers, who want to see you taking a much tougher line on china. is it still our number one threat? does that stand? i is it still our number one threat? does that stand?— does that stand? i don't want to live awa does that stand? i don't want to give away too — does that stand? i don't want to give away too much _ does that stand? i don't want to give away too much in _ does that stand? i don't want to give away too much in what i'm| does that stand? i don't want to i give away too much in what i'm going give away too much in what i�*m going to say tomorrow, but i�*m going to make the point that we need to think long term, we need to think long—term about defending the principles and the institutions that we know have kept us safe in decades. and china, you know, china has threatened a number of those foundation stones that we feel are important. and we will work with our old friends and new friends, to make sure we protect the things we need to protect. but we will look for opportunities to influence china to move in a better direction, and also work with china to make improvements

where we can. is work with china to make improvements where we can-— where we can. is the evidence of china trying _ where we can. is the evidence of china trying to — where we can. is the evidence of china trying to interfere - where we can. is the evidence of china trying to interfere in i where we can. is the evidence of china trying to interfere in this i china trying to interfere in this country? do you worry about what is happening on our soil? yellow matter of course, my main focus is to look internationally. but we worked very closely with the home secretary about all of the things where that interface between home affairs and foreign affairs meet. we have seen some really inappropriate behaviour, unacceptable behaviour in manchester, for example. we called in senior chinese officials to make it very, very clear. we can show viewers some of this, people were shocked to see this. in manchester, pro—democracy protesters outside the consulate, having banners taken down, shockingly, one of them taken into the grounds of the consulate in manchester and beaten up. what have you done about that? we manchester and beaten up. what have you done about that?— you done about that? we called it the most senior— you done about that? we called it the most senior chinese - you done about that? we called it the most senior chinese official i you done about that? we called it the most senior chinese official in the most senior chinese official in the uk to make it clear that this

behaviour is unacceptable. we have said greater manchester police have initiated an investigation. we are going to stick to a rule of law based process, in response to this. when we get further information back from manchester police... itrailrat when we get further information back from manchester police. . ._ from manchester police... what more evidence do — from manchester police... what more evidence do you _ from manchester police... what more evidence do you need? _ from manchester police... what more evidence do you need? that - from manchester police... what more evidence do you need? that is - evidence do you need? that is happening on diplomatic territory in our country. some of my good friends in parliament were keen for us to act immediately in response to just that video. the point i made, in the uk, we abide by the rule of law and there is a process. sometimes it is a little bit slower than some people would like but it is professional and quick. would like but it is professional and quick-— and quick. shouldn't people be exelled and quick. shouldn't people be expelled from _ and quick. shouldn't people be expelled from this _ and quick. shouldn't people be expelled from this country i and quick. shouldn't people be expelled from this country for| and quick. shouldn't people be i expelled from this country for that kind of thing? pare expelled from this country for that kind of thing?— kind of thing? are diplomatic decisions will _ kind of thing? are diplomatic decisions will always - kind of thing? are diplomatic decisions will always be i kind of thing? are diplomatic| decisions will always be based kind of thing? are diplomatic i decisions will always be based on the rule of law and due process. there is a process by which that is being professionally analysed by the

greater manchester police. we will listen to what they had to say. we will make sure our response is robust but is demonstrably based on rules. that is what sets us apart from other countries in the world. we are a rules —based country and we stick to those rules. we are a rules -based country and we stick to those rules.— stick to those rules. some people are concerned _ stick to those rules. some people are concerned about _ stick to those rules. some people are concerned about what - stick to those rules. some people are concerned about what china i stick to those rules. some peoplej are concerned about what china is doing and there have been reports also a secret police stations china has operating three of them in this country. in some other countries after those reports came forward, they were shutdown. when the us banned chinese nationals harassing their citizens, they prosecuted them, i ordered those places to close, what have you done? the home office is looking _ close, what have you done? the home office is looking at _ close, what have you done? the home office is looking at those _ office is looking at those accusations and again we want to make sure that any decisions we make any actions we take, are based on facts and as i say, the really important principles. i know there is a desire to move quickly and we will move quickly but we also had to

make sure we can demonstrate we do it right, we follow due process and abide by the law. that is what sets us apart from other countries around the world. that is the values we are seeking to defend. the best way of defending them is by leading by example. defending them is by leading by examle. ., , ., ~ ., example. you will be talking about that in some _ example. you will be talking about that in some of _ example. you will be talking about that in some of your _ example. you will be talking about that in some of your speech - that in some of your speech tomorrow. what is your guiding principle as foreign secretary? theresa may used to talk about global britain and buys theresa may used to talk about global britain and bustohnson probably did global britain with boosters. —— borisjohnson. i am boosters. -- borisjohnson. iam aood boosters. -- borisjohnson. iam good friends _ boosters. -- borisjohnson. i am good friends and _ boosters. -- borisjohnson. iam good friends and i _ boosters. -- borisjohnson. i am good friends and i and _ boosters. —— borisjohnson. ia�*n good friends and i and glad i can now call him prime minister and not just rishi sunak. we had a very similar view of the world with international relations. the point we are making, the point i am making, we have agency and influence

on the world stage meant notjust commentators, we are active participants and we have genuine influence. we should use that influence. we should use that influence to protect values and principles to underpin peace and security. we should think long—term. patient diplomacy to make a real influence on the world stage, not just in the here and now that for decades to come. you just in the here and now that for decades to come.— just in the here and now that for decades to come. you will be making a seech decades to come. you will be making a speech about _ decades to come. you will be making a speech about that _ decades to come. you will be making a speech about that tomorrow. i decades to come. you will be making a speech about that tomorrow. that i a speech about that tomorrow. that is all we have time for at the moment. thank you for coming in. i wonder what you mayjust thank you for coming in. i wonder what you may just that, thank you for coming in. i wonder what you mayjust that, on the strikes and vine policy. you can do it in the normal way. —— and foreign policy. if you want analysis on what has been happening this morning, go to the bbc website. there is the address. i think you probably know that by now. the story of the moment

is the strikes in the nhs. the man he wants to be our secretary should labour win the next election is wes streeting. i labour win the next election is wes streetinu. . ., labour win the next election is wes streetinu. ., ., ., labour win the next election is wes streetin.. ., ., ., ,., , streeting. i am glad he did not say next health _ streeting. i am glad he did not say next health secretary. _ streeting. i am glad he did not say next health secretary. who - streeting. i am glad he did not say next health secretary. who knows| next health secretary. who knows what will happen _ next health secretary. who knows what will happen next? _ next health secretary. who knows what will happen next? there i next health secretary. who knows what will happen next? there is i what will happen next? there is always unpredictability in british politics. would ambulance workers be striking under a labour government? no, i do not think their word. we have had an 11th hour intervention from the royal college of nursing and unison saying, if the company agrees to talk and negotiate, there will be no strikes this week. —— as if the government. i cannot understand why james cleverly sat in this chair and moment ago, refusing that reasonable offer but were still pretending government does not have a role to play. it is like, i am sorry, there is a problem to be sold but i am a government minister. it

is ridiculous. we do pay their nurses more and give them more? we nurses more and give them more? , would be prepared to talk about pay, terms and conditions and the way the whole review process works. the staff who are going on strike feel their backs are against the wall. it is about pay and cost of living pressures. we would be willing to talk. what i am not going to do at this stage is create hostage to fortune for a labour government, let�*s assume the elections are in two years�* time. the worst thing i can possibly do this morning as make promises we cannot keep. when i say things like we are going to deliver the biggest expansion of nhs issues in history. i am not confident. i would be prepared to negotiate if we were in government today and that is the least we can expect of government.— the least we can expect of covernment. ., , ., , . . , government. you strongly criticise the government _ government. you strongly criticise the government for _ government. you strongly criticise the government for not _ government. you strongly criticise the government for not talking i government. you strongly criticise the government for not talking to | the government for not talking to them about pay. then you said he would talk to them about pay. we all

know what they want is more pay and he did not seem to be willing to say you would contemplate the idea of more pay. i you would contemplate the idea of more -a . ., , more pay. i said i would be willing to negotiate _ more pay. i said i would be willing to negotiate and _ more pay. i said i would be willing to negotiate and that _ more pay. i said i would be willing to negotiate and that is _ more pay. i said i would be willing i to negotiate and that is reasonable. i am not asking for a figure, i am asking for an answer. we i am not asking for a figure, i am asking for an answer.— i am not asking for a figure, i am asking for an answer. we would be willin: to asking for an answer. we would be willing to talk _ asking for an answer. we would be willing to talk about _ asking for an answer. we would be willing to talk about it. _ asking for an answer. we would be willing to talk about it. there i asking for an answer. we would be willing to talk about it. there are l willing to talk about it. there are wider issues in the nhs. the message i get from start going on strike and it is notjust about pay, their wider conditions they are working in, the moral injury they are going through. we are seeing staff leaving the nhs, particularly staff in lower paid band hillare going the nhs, particularly staff in lower paid band hill are going to work in retail because they think they can get better wages and less stress in their lives. , ., ., ., ., their lives. they have got to deal with those _ their lives. they have got to deal with those issues. _ their lives. they have got to deal with those issues. if— their lives. they have got to deal with those issues. if you - their lives. they have got to deal with those issues. if you want i their lives. they have got to deal with those issues. if you want to | with those issues. if you want to keep staff, that presumably does mean, if you want to keep staff but that means being willing to pay them more, doesn�*t it? that that means being willing to pay them more, doesn't it?— more, doesn't it? that is what the last labour — more, doesn't it? that is what the last labour government _ more, doesn't it? that is what the last labour government did. i more, doesn't it? that is what the last labour government did. whyi more, doesn't it? that is what the i last labour government did. why were

we able to do that? we had growth in the economy. it would certainly be... of course we want to invest more in public services and we want people to be paid more. the best thing we candy to make sure we are able to do that is to get inflation under control and get growth back into the economy. if the economy had grown under this conservative and at the rate it grew under the last labour government, there will be £30 million to spend on public services without having say that. let�*s stick with what is happening in the health service and what you would do if you are health secretary. you have your own beef with the unions and have used pretty punchy language this morning about the doctor�*s union, the bma. when you want to talk about gps you get criticised. ~ , ., , ., , ., criticised. why are you trying to wind the unions _ criticised. why are you trying to wind the unions up? _ criticised. why are you trying to wind the unions up? i _ criticised. why are you trying to wind the unions up? i am i criticised. why are you trying to i wind the unions up? i am certainly not. i said they are being very

reasonable, the ones who are planning to go on strike and even at this late stage are desperately seeking a deal. the bna has given me out their will because i announce the biggest expansion of the nhs staff in history, funded by abolishing the non dom tax status. all i said is alongside the investment in stuff we need better service for patients. it is not right people have to wait on the phone at eight bloc in the morning trying to get through to a gp. people should be able to book appointments online and see a doctor face to face. they should be able to see the same doctor and have continuity pair. i appreciate the pressure gps are under. i am not bashing gps. when i say i am going to best in the workforce, i do not expect the bna to treat me like a heretic because i am demanding better standards for patients. i understand the pressures the nhs is understand the pressures the nhs is under and take my hat off to staff

who helped me last year when i was going through kidney cancer. when a labour government is putting in investment which is extra it is reasonable for us to expect better standards for patients. he reasonable for us to expect better standards for patients.— reasonable for us to expect better standards for patients. he said the nhs needs to _ standards for patients. he said the nhs needs to reform _ standards for patients. he said the nhs needs to reform or _ standards for patients. he said the nhs needs to reform or die. i standards for patients. he said the i nhs needs to reform or die. what you mean by that? —— as you said. maybe is the breda question to ask whether the nhs actually without demographic problems ageing population and increasing demand, does the nhs actually need to think about doing less but doing it well rather than being stretched so thinly and tried to give everything to everybody that they need? i to give everything to everybody that the need? ., ., , ., they need? i would agree with you in terms of the — they need? i would agree with you in terms of the diagnosis _ they need? i would agree with you in terms of the diagnosis of _ they need? i would agree with you in terms of the diagnosis of the - terms of the diagnosis of the challenge but not the answer. let me explain why i am so anxious about the future of the nhs. we had the biggest crisis in the history of the nhs today, record waiting list, ambulances taking even an hour for a

heart attack and stroke victim. also the big challenges of a chronic disease with an ageing population. against the backdrop where we spent a significant proportion of gdp and public spending in the nhs, we have to ask questions about how the money is spent. when you compare the nhs to other oecd countries, we are spending far more in hospitals on late diagnosis and therefore less effective and more expensive treatment if we had more of that resource in primary care, community services, mental health social care, we can deliver better outcomes for patients and better value for the taxpayer. there�*s other changes i want to see if we had to defend an nhs free at the point of use, which is what i am committed to. when i went through kidney cancer last year, the one thing i did not have to worry about is the bell. i am determined to uphold that founding equitable principle that the nhs has been based on four 75 years. the you

are also talking _ been based on four 75 years. the you are also talking about _ been based on four 75 years. the you are also talking about using - been based on four 75 years. the you are also talking about using the i are also talking about using the private sector in the nhs. there is a concern if you bring in the private sector, you move staff summer as i make the problem worse. we had staff who do a significant amount of work in the private sector. —— leave the staff somewhere else. there are empty beds available in the private sector and wherestill we have a two tier health care system in this country today where those he can pay to go private and are faster and those who cannot afford to pay are left lagging behind. that is deeply unfair. i would rather come as a short—term measure, use the private sector to bring down nhs waiting lists buster at no cost to those who cannot afford private health care, at the same time as putting investment we need to make the nhs fit for the future. that is what the last government did. as well as delivering the lowest waiting times,

we made the nhs so good that people did not have to pay to go private. you are bringing resource to the private sector. many within your party are not ok with that. i am not ok for people _ party are not ok with that. i am not ok for people to — party are not ok with that. i am not ok for people to eight _ party are not ok with that. i am not ok for people to eight months, i party are not ok with that. i am not i ok for people to eight months, years for treatment. ok for people to eight months, years fortreatment. i ok for people to eight months, years for treatment. i am ok for people to eight months, years for treatment. lam not ok for people to eight months, years for treatment. i am not ok that people who are wealthy are seen faster while those who are not wealthy lag behind. that is not a labour principle, that is not the labour principle, that is not the labour way. labour principle, that is not the labourway. ourjob labour principle, that is not the labour way. ourjob is to get patients seen as fast as possible. helping to alleviate some of the pressure on the nhs will help as make the changes we need to make the nhs fit for the future. more investment coming on in terms of style. without a plan for the workforce you do not have a plan for the nhs. also working out whether money is spent and getting faster treatment, faster diagnosis, better outcomes for patients and better value for money for the taxpayer. is it the labour way to use the private

sector more to make sure the nhs reforms or else it does not get the investment it says it needs? talking about unions driving you mad. there might be some of our viewers and some within your own party, listening to you this morning thinking, that sounds a bit of a kind of thing the conservatives will say. kind of thing the conservatives will sa . ., , ., , _ kind of thing the conservatives will sa. .,, ., , ., say. the conservatives will say, not me, say. the conservatives will say, not me. nothing — say. the conservatives will say, not me. nothing to _ say. the conservatives will say, not me, nothing to do _ say. the conservatives will say, not me, nothing to do with _ say. the conservatives will say, not me, nothing to do with me. - say. the conservatives will say, not me, nothing to do with me. it i say. the conservatives will say, not me, nothing to do with me. it is i me, nothing to do with me. it is nothing to do with the government we have in place for 12 years that took as into the pandemic with record waiting list, 100,000 nhs staff vacancies, 112,000 vacancies in care. they have no answers. i am telling the government, by all means nick labour party policies. do you know who welcomed my plan? jeremy hunt. he knows the workforce is the issue. he says they�*re smart governments make the best ideas of the opponents.

great to have you in the studio. thank you for being with us this morning. our time together this morning�*s drawing to a close ahead

this is bbc news broadcasting in the uk and around the globe i�*m rebecca jones. our top stories: heartbreak for england fans as a missed penalty sends harry kane�*s team packing, losing 2—1 to the reigning champions france. the team are now on their way home. meanwhile, morocco becomes the first african and arab country to reach the semi—finals of the football world cup. authorities in jersey say they are no longer looking for survivors after a explosion that destroyed a block of flats yesterday. they have recovered three bodies so far. a teenage girl with seemingly incurable leukaemia — now cancer—free thanks to a revolutionary therapy. we have a special report

on the woman ordained in secret to become a catholic priest — despite the