recently back in the uk after being knocked out by france. lovely to have you with us and desperate story to be starting with, the telegraph is focusing on this but this is a situation that we are all watching in the coming hours were talking a lot and we probably will about the really grim weather for so many people in some reports of the country but this a horror. children that were out just country but this a horror. children that were outjust kind of fun and then falling into icy waters. grim weather for _ then falling into icy waters. grim weather for most _ then falling into icy waters. grim weather for most adults - then falling into icy waters.

others, trying to save him. and it is extremely grim and emergency services seem to be under the microscope at the moment working so brilliantly together and it's so terribly sad that it would appear tonight the two children are lost in the water and is the search continues and four are critically ill fighting for their lives. it's a solitary reminder of the dangers of nature we are thinking about planes being cancelled and roads being created and that's the real life stuff that's just happening around taking kids to the park. you have to be on the watch out for that too. is be on the watch out for that too. is for the striking listening to the emergency services over the last hour or so touching on whatjust

urging people, please, it may look beautiful, it might look enticing but when the senior emergency workers says please do not go near ice because you just do not know how to it is or is not. it is ice because you 'ust do not know how to it is or is not.— to it is or is not. it is such a tragic story _ to it is or is not. it is such a tragic story in _ to it is or is not. it is such a tragic story in the _ to it is or is not. it is such a tragic story in the papers i to it is or is not. it is such a i tragic story in the papers sits to it is or is not. it is such a - tragic story in the papers sits in the children involved which is nine or 11 years — the children involved which is nine or 11 years and the heartache of the parents _ or 11 years and the heartache of the parents tonight must be absolutely enormous. looking at these stories in the _ enormous. looking at these stories in the summerand enormous. looking at these stories in the summer and we had the heatwave. _ in the summer and we had the heatwave, people are attracted to water _ heatwave, people are attracted to water but — heatwave, people are attracted to water but sometimes underestimate how powerful water can be in trekking _ how powerful water can be in trekking particularly younger and people _ trekking particularly younger and people underneath the surface some of us to— people underneath the surface some of us to see snow and ice and are attracted — of us to see snow and ice and are attracted to go out and enjoy the elements— attracted to go out and enjoy the elements but do it on land, from surfaces — elements but do it on land, from surfaces. ignore anything where the ice may— surfaces. ignore anything where the ice may look safe but unfortunately, it is often _ ice may look safe but unfortunately,

it is often quite thin and we know tragedy— it is often quite thin and we know tragedy can so often follow. its it is often quite thin and we know tragedy can so often follow. as we were reflecting, _ tragedy can so often follow. as we were reflecting, children _ tragedy can so often follow. as we were reflecting, children and - were reflecting, children and isolate terror and if you might expect, but a lot of details in the newspaper about but some people think may have happened in really upsetting comments from eyewitnesses. i mean, again, that conference we saw striking that the emergency services really would not be drawn on the children's ages, they would not say whether they're talking about girls or boys but so often, there is considerably more detail and some of the newspapers so, the telegraph front and centre for that really set story tonight and on bbc news, will keep an eye on that but emergency services to everyone. everyone, let's talk about the world of strikes. it is a really, it is a

tricky week coming up and a lot of sectors and this is interesting. hopes raised for last—ditch talks to stop the nurses strikes. there, you may get a chance to talk about some the others but what are they telling us about the possibility of stopping the nurses strikes.— the nurses strikes. there 'ust sa in: the nurses strikes. there 'ust saying that i the nurses strikes. there 'ust saying that hopes * the nurses strikes. there 'ust saying that hopes have h the nurses strikes. there just saying that hopes have been | the nurses strikes. there just - saying that hopes have been raised and the head of them come i think they played a blind saying that we are ready to step forward and why is the minister willing to talk to us and it's really easy to upset these negotiations and sits up to the employers to start to have this discussion but ultimately, there are public servants who are is the board and the education and health

minister is the chair of the board and asked to step in and try to find some sort of consensus here that will help us reach a middle point that can be found. nothing that can be found in scotland, it has been and so, there is hope but it requires everybody to find wiggle room in the stances that they are taking. and what make the health secretary says he will not budge on pay and that is the key point in this particular strike, isn't it. it this particular strike, isn't it. it is and i am a conservative and a fan of margaret— is and i am a conservative and a fan of margaret thatcher, i sometimes worry— of margaret thatcher, i sometimes worry that — of margaret thatcher, i sometimes worry that some of the contemporaries, some the current serving _ contemporaries, some the current serving conservative ministers wont almost _ serving conservative ministers wont almost be _ serving conservative ministers wont almost be more thatcher than thatcher— almost be more thatcher than thatcher and want to look tougher than i _ thatcher and want to look tougher than i think she would ever be. some of us _ than i think she would ever be. some of us are _ than i think she would ever be. some of us are old — than i think she would ever be. some of us are old enough to remember that although she took many tough

decisions, — that although she took many tough decisions, she was also flexible when _ decisions, she was also flexible when she — decisions, she was also flexible when she needed to be in first became — when she needed to be in first became prime minister, she inherited what was _ became prime minister, she inherited what was called the commission that she excepted some very large pay rises _ she excepted some very large pay rises and — she excepted some very large pay rises and i— she excepted some very large pay rises and i think a little bit more flexibility— rises and i think a little bit more flexibility from the government would — flexibility from the government would probably help them when the pr battle which is part of the political test of any government. it is clearly— political test of any government. it is clearly not a great deal of money to spend _ is clearly not a great deal of money to spend and i think private sector workers are — to spend and i think private sector workers are having their lives disrupted by public—sector workers in private—sector workers with job insecurity — in private—sector workers with job insecurity securities creature who perhaps _ insecurity securities creature who perhaps aren't getting anything like that payraise is being offered to public _ that payraise is being offered to public sector workers do not have the same — public sector workers do not have the same job security and will certainly— the same job security and will certainly be unhappy to see public sector— certainly be unhappy to see public sector workers rewarded well in excess — sector workers rewarded well in excess of — sector workers rewarded well in excess of what they are getting. breaking — excess of what they are getting. breaking the government could communicate more flexibility and they nrail— communicate more flexibility and they mail will have to have some sort of _ they mail will have to have some sort of settlement of some kind and perhaps _ sort of settlement of some kind and perhaps one—off payment of some kind 'ust perhaps one—off payment of some kind just to _ perhaps one—off payment of some kind just to reassure nurses and others

in ambulance drivers and i think probably— in ambulance drivers and i think probably the sooner that flexibility is shown. — probably the sooner that flexibility is shown, the better because in these _ is shown, the better because in these court weather conditions that we've _ these court weather conditions that we've just — these court weather conditions that we've just been discussing, the risk of a strike _ we've just been discussing, the risk of a strike on top of that really doesn't — —— does frighten people. what make you sort— —— does frighten people. what make you sort flexibility isn't the argument that if you think of the sectors that are going on strike this week, _ sectors that are going on strike this week, if you gave all of them a pay rise _ this week, if you gave all of them a -a ris . this week, if you gave all of them a .a ris ., , this week, if you gave all of them a -a ris ., , ., ., ., , pay rise that is inflationary in that she pointed _ pay rise that is inflationary in that she pointed out, there l pay rise that is inflationary in i that she pointed out, there isn't a bottomless pit of money and isn't that the government argument is that why this thing they're not getting involved? i’m why this thing they're not getting involved? �* ., _ . involved? i'm not saying that the government _ involved? i'm not saying that the government could _ involved? i'm not saying that the government could afford - involved? i'm not saying that the government could afford to - involved? i'm not saying that the government could afford to give l government could afford to give away _ government could afford to give away in — government could afford to give away. in my travel plans over the next _ away. in my travel plans over the next week— away. in my travel plans over the next week will be heavily disrupted try next week will be heavily disrupted by the _ next week will be heavily disrupted by the rail— next week will be heavily disrupted by the rail strike and again and again. — by the rail strike and again and again. i— by the rail strike and again and again, i live in salisbury and getting _ again, i live in salisbury and getting up to london where there is a rail— getting up to london where there is a rail strike — getting up to london where there is a rail strike really does cause me lots of— a rail strike really does cause me lots of trouble and some private

sector— lots of trouble and some private sector workers feel the same and i'm not saying _ sector workers feel the same and i'm not saying we should give into the rail workers and some of what you hear— rail workers and some of what you hear from — rail workers and some of what you hear from the rail leaders basically taking _ hear from the rail leaders basically taking very political positions very anti—government positions and this is more _ anti—government positions and this is more than paying for that and bringing — is more than paying for that and bringing down the conservative government and that is notjust assuming — government and that is notjust assuming that pay is the only matter here, _ assuming that pay is the only matter here, but cannot give a huge pay increase — here, but cannot give a huge pay increase but it probably will be some — increase but it probably will be some compromise at some point in the question— some compromise at some point in the question is— some compromise at some point in the question is does that come sooner does _ question is does that come sooner does that— question is does that come sooner does that come in january or february _ does that come in january or february. now one sings do not surrender— february. now one sings do not surrender to the unions, but to actually— surrender to the unions, but to actually show if you possibly can, perhaps — actually show if you possibly can, perhaps one—off payment is to help people _ perhaps one—off payment is to help people to _ perhaps one—off payment is to help people to these immediate difficulties and some flexibility because the consequences again our famiiies— because the consequences again our families who have missed being with loved _ families who have missed being with loved ones _ families who have missed being with loved ones because of covid—19 and missing _ loved ones because of covid—19 and missing opportunities to with the famiiies— missing opportunities to with the families again is heartbreaking and some _ families again is heartbreaking and some people and families that aren't getting _ some people and families that aren't getting any younger and this may be

one of— getting any younger and this may be one of the _ getting any younger and this may be one of the last christmas is that famiiies— one of the last christmas is that families will be together in those cases— families will be together in those cases it _ families will be together in those cases it is — families will be together in those cases it is tragic that these implications of the strikes many flexibilities can be shown and show it now— flexibilities can be shown and show it now rather than later. are flexibilities can be shown and show it now rather than later.— it now rather than later. are your christmas _ it now rather than later. are your christmas plans _ it now rather than later. are your christmas plans appended - it now rather than later. are your christmas plans appended by - it now rather than later. are your christmas plans appended by the it now rather than later. are your- christmas plans appended by the rail strikes, do you have sympathy for the demands that are there and tim says it's notjust about pay in some cases? i says it's not 'ust about pay in some cases? . _ , ., cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases in the — cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases in the cabinets _ cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases in the cabinets but _ cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases in the cabinets butjust - cases? i have huge sympathy for the cases in the cabinets butjust keep i cases in the cabinets butjust keep refusing to take any kind of responsibility for ensuring that the people who are feeling that they need to go on strike i met halfway evenif need to go on strike i met halfway even if it's only to have a conversation and the rest of us are able to see they care about the impact on our lives. i've got people who are coming for christmas and coming in on christmas eve and it's causing them £300 for brighton and the more trains and our daughter

arriving next weekend from australia and who knows what's going to happen when she gets here and all of those, i don't mind those inconveniences, i don't suppose being inconvenienced because i think actually, our public service workers have a really important argument for getting decent pay raises and looking for currently. what i want to see and perhaps, page may be wanting to see a slightly different results, but you need an intervention here from the people who are actually in charge of everyone's well—being from public service workers and private service workers using public services and indeed public service workers are using their own services too. , . . think it would seeing the front page of the guardian as well because they tell us that plans for military

staff to cover for striking workers are to be discussed at a cabinet office cobra meeting and that is an intervention, i don't know if that's the kind of intervention you would think would come in. blot the kind of intervention you would think would come in.— think would come in. not going to disauree think would come in. not going to disagree and _ think would come in. not going to disagree and i'm _ think would come in. not going to disagree and i'm very _ think would come in. not going to disagree and i'm very glad - think would come in. not going to disagree and i'm very glad that. disagree and i'm very glad that relatives— disagree and i'm very glad that relatives can afford a £300 taxi fare in — relatives can afford a £300 taxi fare in orderto relatives can afford a £300 taxi fare in order to be home for christmas _ fare in order to be home for christmas and many cannot afford these _ christmas and many cannot afford these fears in order tojoin the relatives— these fears in order tojoin the relatives may feel that a lot of people — relatives may feel that a lot of people are in an awful lot less than the average for a worker for example in the _ the average fora worker for example in the light— the average for a worker for example in the light of real workers pay incredibiy— in the light of real workers pay incredibly well but in return from taxpayers — incredibly well but in return from taxpayers to subsidise the railways during _ taxpayers to subsidise the railways during covid—19 and to actually target — during covid—19 and to actually target their christmases just seems a step— target their christmases just seems a step too— target their christmases just seems a step too far to me. and i think were beginning to see a shift in the opinion— were beginning to see a shift in the opinion polls again and i think they are treading dangerously in attacking the public in this way at the moment and even though some of

us left _ the moment and even though some of us left sympathy for the strikers and all— us left sympathy for the strikers and all the symptom of a lot more sympathy— and all the symptom of a lot more sympathy for nurses and their demands— sympathy for nurses and their demands than actual rail workers. but the _ demands than actual rail workers. but the service is also taxpayers in the nhs _ but the service is also taxpayers in the nhs is — but the service is also taxpayers in the nhs is the biggest employer in the country and you could argue that the country and you could argue that the biggest supplier of taxes is the nhs. the biggest supplier of taxes is the nhs- because _ the biggest supplier of taxes is the nhs. because they _ the biggest supplier of taxes is the nhs. because they have _ the biggest supplier of taxes is the nhs. because they have the - the biggest supplier of taxes : ii�*uéi nhs. because they have the most, they are the biggest take of texas. you cannot differentiate private service workers indifferently disadvantaged by the tax system or by demands repaid by public service workers. there are other topics to discuss. you'll be back with us later we can talk more about that. but strikes in all their forms on many different pages and inside pages very quick thought from you because you particularly wanted to flag

something in the ft. i particularly wanted to flag something in the ft. i don't know whether you _ something in the ft. i don't know whether you two _ something in the ft. i don't know whether you two were _ something in the ft. i don't know whether you two were watching i something in the ft. i don't know. whether you two were watching the england _ whether you two were watching the england game last night and that was some particularly sad news from qatar— some particularly sad news from qatar with england's exit but they have a _ qatar with england's exit but they have a really important story about how qatar — have a really important story about how qatar has been washing around political— how qatar has been washing around political centres for a long time and we — political centres for a long time and we know that they didn't necessarily get the world cup in the most _ necessarily get the world cup in the most fair— necessarily get the world cup in the most fair way and the ft is a very important — most fair way and the ft is a very important story for the first time getting _ important story for the first time getting to grips with the corruption scandal— getting to grips with the corruption scandai at— getting to grips with the corruption scandal at the heart of the european parliament were mps and others were part of— parliament were mps and others were part of by— parliament were mps and others were part of by qatar money and we have them _ part of by qatar money and we have them in _ part of by qatar money and we have them in the — part of by qatar money and we have them in the middle of the desert in them in the middle of the desert in the middle — them in the middle of the desert in the middle of christmas rather than in the _ the middle of christmas rather than in the summer. the the middle of christmas rather than in the summer.— the middle of christmas rather than in the summer. ,, . . ., in the summer. the qatari government den in: that in the summer. the qatari government denying that and _ in the summer. the qatari government denying that and we _ in the summer. the qatari government denying that and we will _ in the summer. the qatari government denying that and we will talk _ in the summer. the qatari government denying that and we will talk more - denying that and we will talk more about that at 1130. quick thought

from you because i mentioned earlier that the england team is just landed in they're all back. southgate, the star, they are not going with gareth southgate, why are they going with the cat? the going with gareth southgate, why are they going with the cat?— they going with the cat? the cat who is a stray that _ they going with the cat? the cat who is a stray that apparently _ they going with the cat? the cat who is a stray that apparently won - they going with the cat? the cat who is a stray that apparently won the - is a stray that apparently won the hearts of the england team in manchester city, and kyle walker have decided to bring the cat home and coming home and katie is coming home and he is going to go into quarantine forfour home and he is going to go into quarantine for four months and it always checks and injections and so, he'll be coming to live in england and will have to find out if anyone's been given a pond in order to bring him over without any kind of visa problems but it's just a lovely story and is recently adopted and those who do not look that different from dave and it will be

what struck my heart.— different from dave and it will be what struck my heart. great to see ou both what struck my heart. great to see you both and _ what struck my heart. great to see you both and will _ what struck my heart. great to see you both and will chat _ what struck my heart. great to see you both and will chat with - what struck my heart. great to see you both and will chat with you - what struck my heart. great to see you both and will chat with you in l you both and will chat with you in the next hour. and tim montgomery and much more to come and that is it for the papers for this hour and will be back with more conversations more at 1130 but goodbye for now.