welcome to hardtalk from oakland, california. i'm stephen sackur. this city has long been a cradle of the struggle for black freedom and equality. black oaklanders know the reality of systemic discrimination. back in the 1960s, one response was the creation of the radical and controversial black panther party. it was founded by men. some of its key leaders were women. one of them, my guest today, ericka huggins. she spent two years imprisoned and she became a symbol of the black panther struggle. looking around oakland today, has anything really changed?

ericka huggins, welcome to hardtalk. well, thank you! it's an honour to be here. it is a great pleasure to have you on the show. i want to take you back to your years as a leader in the black panther party. when you reflect on those years now, does it feel to you like ancient history, or part of a struggle that continues till today? well, it certainly doesn't feel like ancient history because the life that i lived and that all of my friends lived at that time stays with me. it's a very pivotal part of my life. and i think that history sometimes... well, let me say, i have

a particular view of history, that it doesn't happen in segments, that it flows like a river. so i'm still in the river and, um, doing the best i can to uplift humanity, like i did then. let's take you back to, in a way, when you entered the river, that is when you were a young student and you were studying in philadelphia, but you just decided you had to move to the west coast, to los angeles, when you were still a teenager, tojoin the struggle. why did you do that? i read a magazine article and the magazine was called ramparts. it doesn't exist any more. but there was an article about the black panther party for self—defence. and because i grew up in a black community, i knew that self—defence wasn't just a physical thing.

it sparked some interest in me and i read on in the article and the person who wrote it said, "this organisation is for all poor and oppressed people." and ifelt, "this is very important "and i want to be a part of this." i'm very interested by that phrase, "self—defence". because, of course, we're talking about the 1960s and dr martin luther king was leading a civil rights movement. his movement was very much based on the notion of nonviolent resistance. mm—hm. was your notion of what self—defence meant something different from what dr king was talking about? i don't really think so. i think if we look at the violent way in which this country, the united states, was conceived, i can't think of anything more violent than owning humans. so, i think that the black panther party... we were young, median age 19 years old, and we thought, "well, we believe in what dr martin luther king

believes in, "however we also want to protect ourselves "and our beloveds," and so that was what we were talking about when we talked about self—defence, that we won't let people just knock our doors down, beat us up, stop us, frisk us, beat us up, arrest us for no reason, that we will say something about it and we will do something about it. in this remarkable book that you've been involved in, women of the black panther party, it projects an image of what was happening in the late �*60s in la, alongside oakland and a host of other cities, which sort of challenges the notion that the black panther party was full of men, who carried guns, wore militia—style uniforms, cos these pictures portray primarily women, of course, but they portray community and social organisation and activism, from free breakfasts for poor black kids, to sickle cell

disease screening centres, free medical clinics. was that, to you, what the black panther party was really about? that is what it was about and that's the legacy that this book hopes to unfold for people, if they didn't already know it, and that's the legacy that i want to uphold. the work that we did was out of love. there were a lot of women leaders in the black panthers. did you feel that that caused difficulties in the black panther party, or was it embraced by those men, huey newton, bobby seale and others, who we associate with the leadership of the party? well, i think your word "associate with leadership" is key to what i'm about to say, because in actuality, all of us were leaders,

of our own lives, of reclaiming the destiny for our communities and as i said earlier, we weren'tjust black people for black people. not only that, a lot of the members of the party were not african—american, or african. they came from everywhere. and our collaborations were with all the organisations that wanted to make a change, so that there be no barriers between human beings. you talked about the police harassment, you talked about the violence, and we'll talk about that some more, but i just wonder whether even the social activism, the free breakfast clubs, the free medical clinics — were they part of the harassment? was there an effort by the authorities, the police, to close you down? absolutely.

as a matter of fact, police often came in to church basements where many of the... church and school basements, or gyms, where the breakfast programmes for children were held, all over the united states, and by the way, replicated all over the world. however, in the united states, the police came in with guns drawn to shut it down. and i remember reading a memorandum fromj edgar hoover to his field officers, saying that he wasn't concerned about the talk about self—defence, it was that breakfast programme that concerned him. talking about hoover, one of his most famous quotes in this regard was, describing the black panther party as "the greatest threat to the "internal security of the united states". yes. we have to talk

about the violence. about the fact that black panthers carried guns, black panthers were involved in a whole host of violent incidents, many with the police, some not, which resulted in death. did you feel yourself and your colleagues to be at war with american law enforcement? i didn't feel that way. i never learned to use a gun. i never had a gun. we were not intending to be at war with anyone. and i think that... sorry to interrupt, but did you feel that way, even after your own husband, john, was murdered? now, he was murdered by quite a strange national... us black nationalist movement, at least that's what was claimed. orchestrated by the fbi. very much so. do you know that for sure? yes. cos that was never proven in a court. well... shall i tell you about the operative who came and met

with me to tell me... whether it was proved or not, he was in the field office in westwood, california, which is where ucla is, on the day thatjohn hugginer and alprentice bunchy carter were murdered... mm. ..and it was orchestrated and i knew it in my heart because i knew all the other things that were being orchestrated. i'm not... i can't. . .truthfully say that i know everything about everything, but i know that. and did that and your absolute conviction that the fbi had been behind the murder of your husband, at a time when you had a tiny baby... she was three weeks old. yeah. did that fuel a rage, an anger, inside you? no, ithink it did the opposite. i was...very, very sad. i don't know how to describe that sadness. i told my daughter later that my heart felt like shattered glass.

he was my friend, he wasn'tjust my husband, or the father of our child. he was my dearest friend. and bunchy as well, alprentice carter. so, i couldn't understand why the government wanted to kill a 23—year—old and a 26—year—old. i was trying to figure out what is the point here and all i could come to is that there need to be examples to shut us down. they thought, to kill the head and the body will die. now, your enemies, and of course,j edgar hoover was enemy number one, in the sense that he saw you as a fundamental threat to the security of the united states, they accused the black panthers of all sorts of criminality...

mm—hm. ..and wrongdoing. but interestingly, there are historians, black historians, who've also looked at the black panthers, and i don't know whether you have read his book, but hugh pearson, a respected african—american author and journalist, he wrote a book on the black panthers, in which he said this, "the truth is," he says, "huey newton organised hit squads, "while his elite cadre of enforcers shook down local "businesses for contributions, extorted money from pimps "and drug dealers. these guys ran protection rackets." is that true? i truly do not know if it's true or not. what i do know is that's not what we were doing. the bigger "we" of the party members. i was working at a school that the party started for two and a half to 12—year—olds. not to cover for anything, but because i love children and i wanted them to have a quality of education that they deserve. and we worked closely with the public schools to do this.

it was a model elementary. i fed breakfast to children. i helped out at the clinics. i supported all of the party's programmes as best i could. and i'm speaking for myself here because i can't speak for the hundreds and hundreds of people. nor can i speakfor huey newton or anyone else. i can only speak for myself, but i know without a doubt that we were doing good things in community. you did all of that community work and yet for two years you were deprived of the ability to do that work because you were deprived of your freedom. yes. you were a prisoner. yes, i was incarcerated. facing murder charges, and we have to talk a little bit about what happened and why it happened. sure. while you were in new haven, connecticut, you were accused of being involved, in fact, being responsible for the murder of a young man. i believe he was 19 years old.

yes, he was. he was inside the black panther party, but seniorfigures in new haven believed he was an informer to the fbi. how did it happen that you were present when that young man was tortured? well, what happened is that a man who we later found out was an informant for the fbi... ..brought that young man into the party office in new haven, connecticut. i'll neverforget the day, and... ..forcibly. .. ..pushed him in through the door and told us that he was an informant. i was there because i was working there and i had nothing to do with his death, nor did bobby seale, who was also incarcerated and on trial for conspiracy with the intent to commit murder and other charges.

most of them dropped. the charges were dropped, but nonetheless, there is still an important question, because the police audiotapes revealed that you were there as this young man suffered the torture of having boiling water poured over his body. he was then handcuffed or tied to a bed for three days. after that, he was taken away and he was murdered. you were there for some of that incident. did you try to stop it? yes, idid. and what happened? what happened was that i wasn't listened to. and... ..sometimes women are not

respected when they give an opinion different from men. and i said what i saw, i said what i hoped would change things and i was not listened to. and that man, the informant, held us all hostage in that house. at gunpoint. so on the night that i was arrested and turned my baby daughter once again over to... ..this time, family. i thought i would never see the light of day. as a matter of fact, that's what i was told that night. really. "we'll see you burn in the chair, huggins. so... ..i wished for many years that there was something i could do to make it different. but it was all planned. ericka, i guess you had

a choice after that terrible incident and after you had experienced two years in prison before the charges against you personally were dropped. you had a choice. you could then walk away from the black panther party, because of some of the stuff you'd seen and the fact that you hadn't been listened to at that crucial moment. or you could choose to stay. why did you choose to stay? because from age 15 forward, i'd had this promise to myself to serve people for the rest of my life. and so i knew the challenges would come. i had seen what the challenges, the challenges that all of the leaders in history have faced, including death. and so i was aware that... ..it was a difficult choice to make. but i knew that i wanted

to continue to serve. and so after i was released from the women's prison in new haven, outside of new haven, connecticut, i returned to oakland with my daughter and began working to start the oakland community school. so, it was worth it. that school was worth me staying, is what i'm saying. because i got to work directly with young people who i knew would make a difference. you just said to me in that incident in new haven, connecticut, that you were not listened to. and the implication was there were some men in that particular branch of the party who were not interested in listening to your voice. there are others who've written, women who have written that generally in the black panther party there was chauvinism, there was misogyny.

and from people like eldridge cleaver, there was an expectation that black panther women would serve their men, even sexually, that it was part of the deal. well, yeah. well, i think that, you know, we have to look at the world from which, the world in which we were all socialised. what do you mean? how would we walk into the black panther party and drop everything? because that day we've decided to serve people. it takes a lot of inner work for a man to come to terms with their... ..sexist or misogynist ideas or behaviours. so when you said... i was not surprised. again, it's about choices. and again, you chose to stay and to work with these men. and you said once, it's a fascinating quote, you said, "we were making history and it was not nice, "it wasn't

clean and it wasn't easy." do you feel you compromised yourself? no, but i think that one thing that i always say about that period of time in my life and i'll say it now, is that i wish i had known better how to take care of myself, how to take care of my heart. you spent a total of 14 years in the black panther party. yes, idid. but you continued and you do continue your activism here in oakland, working, i believe you counsel in prisons. you've obviously been involved in education for most of your life. i want you to reflect on where oakland and where america is today in terms of the issues of freedom and equality for black people. do you feel that progress has been real?

well, let's go back to that river that we call history. there have always been movements. there will always be movements. after i am long gone, there will be a movement. right, but the question is, are they achieving anything? yes, yes. right now in the united states, black lives matter is one of the big movements to try to achieve justice and try to end the harassment and discrimination from policing in america. but is it working? until the structures, the scaffolding of our country, until the scaffolding is changed, or the infrastructure, the things that i wanted to see happen when i was 18 and joined the party will not shift. it's up to all of us. it isn't up to people of colour. that's the misunderstanding, that there's something that we should be doing.

everybody has tojoin in on this. right. time magazine last year said this. "the black panthers have long been vilified, but their impact "on many prominent activists today is immeasurable." that's fascinating. but then i compare that notion of the impact you've had with some just core statistics on police killings, where a vastly disproportionate number of black people are still killed by the police. absolutely. i look at the economic statistics which show that black people have much lower average incomes than other groups in the united states. what impact really have the black panthers had? i feel like you have an idea that there isn't. is that so? no. i want us to be realistic about what can be achieved in america today.

i'm a very realistic person, and i think that's why i made that promise when i was 15, i will serve people for the rest of my life, because i know that things don't change swiftly. that it takes generation after generation after generation for things to change. think of the vote. and that's up again for us in our world, isn't it? women were given the right to vote in 1920—21. ah, but not black women. 1963. and we could wonder why it didn't happen sooner than that. but the structure or the infrastructure of this country is old. it needs shifting. do you think that river you refer to is taking america to a place where there is genuine equality,

an end to systemic racism? we will not see it, stephen. it will happen. i believe that to be true because i've lived by now 7a years, and i've seen incremental changes. when i was a little girl, i couldn't go to the swimming pool in washington dc in the �*50s. because the fear was that my colour would wash off in the water, that was literally said. i don't think that great numbers of people believe those kinds of untruths, but are we willing to... ..restructure the society so that it benefits all rather than a few? that is a big question.

and i'm hoping that there will be good people who will step forward. there always are good people in this world. ericka huggins, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. after the coldest night of the year on tuesday night, some parts struggled to get above freezing, for example, in glasgow, it was —5 celsius all day because of the fog, and it was barely much more than —2 celsius in edinburgh,

well below the average. and that cold weather stays with us throughout the day on wednesday and thursday. there's just the hint, though, that by the time we get to the weekend, something milder may well come back in off the atlantic. but plenty of winter hazards between now and then. widespread harsh frost and ice risk, widespread snow showers, freezing fog once again to watch out for. and we've got this band of rain with inland sleet and snow in the south, and you can see that stretches across much of southern england. a blast of northerly winds continues to bring snow showers in across the north and the east of scotland. one or two filtering down the north sea coast as well and into northern ireland, but bitterly cold, minus ten over the snowfields and, of course, clearly icy where we've had the showers, where the showers continue, see through the day in eastern areas. but blizzards in the north, gusts of 60—70 miles an hour for the far north of scotland, northern isles, those showers just keep coming. in the south, hopefully this area of rain, sleet and snow will pull away,

but leaving things very treacherous and icy, and temperatures will do well to get, again, a couple of degrees above freezing. one or two snow showers for northern ireland, but plenty of sunshine here, add on that brisk wind, particularly in the north and east, and it will feel colder still, colder than those temperatures will suggest. then as we go through the night and into thursday, we pick up quite a lot of cloud in southern areas. we've still got those showers and low pressure moving down the north sea, enhancing those showers for northern and eastern areas. but, again, really cold overnight, possibly less fog on thursday morning, although there could be some in the south in particular because we've got a stronger wind. but those ease off again, thursday sees the showers mostly in the north and in the east. we're watching out towards the atlantic for friday. so do stay tuned to the forecast. but some good spells of sunshine take temperatures marginally a little higher.

but we could have a quite persistent spell of snow in the north on friday and something milder potentially into the weekend, as we've talked about, but with it, there'll be a transient spell of snow as well. so to keep up to date on the temperatures where you are, you can head to the app. the warnings are on the website, too.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. the headlines: china experiences a surge of covid cases a week after relaxing the country's strict rules on quarantines and lockdowns. the top gear presenter �*freddie�* flintoff is air—lifted to hospital after an accident while filming the bbc motoring show. us presidentjoe biden signs into law a bill, giving federal protection to same—sex and inter—racial marriages. todayis today is a good day! a day

america takes a vital step