good morning. some years are unremarkable — this year, everything changed. his luck ran out. i want you to know how sad i am to be giving up the bestjob in the world. then as the brakes. best job in the world. then as the brakes. ., . , . best job in the world. then as the brakes. ., ., . , brakes. politics choke picking removed by _ brakes. politics choke picking removed by his _ brakes. politics choke picking removed by his own, - brakes. politics choke picking| removed by his own, replaced brakes. politics choke picking . removed by his own, replaced by brakes. politics choke picking - removed by his own, replaced by a new prime minister with a danny new direction. i new prime minister with a danny new direction. . ., , ~ new prime minister with a danny new direction. . . , ~ ., , ., ., direction. i had a bulk hand plan to crow the direction. i had a bulk hand plan to grow the economy _ direction. i had a bulk hand plan to grow the economy through - direction. i had a bulk hand plan to grow the economy through tax - direction. i had a bulk hand plan to| grow the economy through tax cuts and reform. grow the economy through tax cuts and reform-— and reform. before the exit of liz truss, and reform. before the exit of liz truss. the _

and reform. before the exit of liz truss, the goodbye _ and reform. before the exit of liz truss, the goodbye to _ and reform. before the exit of liz truss, the goodbye to the - and reform. before the exit of liz| truss, the goodbye to the queen. with war in europe the backdrop and strife at home. a set of nightmare problems for 2022's prime minister number three. problems for 2022's prime minister numberthree. one problems for 2022's prime minister number three. one big question this morning, will the strikes ruin rishi sunak�*s christmas? oliver dowden is the man the prime minister trusts to deal with the strikes. he is with us live. if labour wins the election ever hipper with the home secretary. —— if labour wins the election, yvette cooper would be home secretary. she's with us from norwich today. and splashdown: the space mission orion is back from the moon. so is howard hu from nasa to tell us how it went. it went as planned, extremely well. and to contemplate a crazy year and look to the next — a stellar trio: the archbishop of

canterbury, justin welby, the editor of the sun, victoria newton, and the broadcaster, susanna reid. hello and welcome to our last programme of 2022. can you believe it? a bit later, we'll replay some of those jaw—clenching moments. but first, what's moving this morning? let's look at the front pages: a few different stories. the sunday times and the sun on sunday talking about harry and meghan and calling for an apology and a summit with the rest of the royal family. the sunday people saying rishi has 48 hours to stop the nhs strikes. the observer also featuring a story and the

telegraph, talking about concerns over the military being brought in to help out. let's talk about that. it is a real time of strife in so many ways. seems like there is strife everywhere at the moment. in this country and around the world, we are seeing that in a very serious way. at a time of real difficulty like this. many people, their biggest challenge is to have a vision for this country to enable us to come together and grow together. that is something up funnily enough i am working on with victoria and on a group will together. there are lots of people doing that. —— a group called stop the coming together to celebrate christmas. [30 called stop the coming together to celebrate christmas.— celebrate christmas. do you think that is lacking _ celebrate christmas. do you think that is lacking at _ celebrate christmas. do you think that is lacking at the _ celebrate christmas. do you think that is lacking at the moment? i i that is lacking at the moment? i think we have not adjusted to how we

communicate, that is one problem. we have become very unforgiving, when people make a mistake they are absolutely, to use a phrase from my own world, crucified for it. sorry, i could not think of another word. i think you are in and to make that jokeif think you are in and to make that joke if anyone is. it think you are in and to make that joke if anyone is.— think you are in and to make that joke if anyone is. it was not a 'oke at the time. fl joke if anyone is. it was not a 'oke at the time. people i joke if anyone is. it was not a 'oke at the time. people suffer h joke if anyone is. it was not a joke at the time. people suffer hugelyl at the time. people suffer hugely when they go wrong, notjust with public exposure but the awful trolling that goes on and the inability to accept apologies, seek forgiveness. those are really difficult things. i forgiveness. those are really difficult things.— forgiveness. those are really difficult thins. ., , difficult things. i am sure we might touch on that _ difficult things. i am sure we might touch on that later. _ difficult things. i am sure we might touch on that later. victoria, - difficult things. i am sure we might touch on that later. victoria, the i touch on that later. victoria, the government is having to grapple with strikes in all industries. rishi sunak has written a punchy piece saying, i am sunak has written a punchy piece saying, iam not sunak has written a punchy piece saying, i am not giving sunak has written a punchy piece saying, iam not giving in, iam not

ina mood saying, iam not giving in, iam not in a mood to reconcile. will he be able to hold the line?— able to hold the line? since he is determined _ able to hold the line? since he is determined to _ able to hold the line? since he is determined to hold _ able to hold the line? since he is determined to hold the - able to hold the line? since he is determined to hold the line. - able to hold the line? since he is| determined to hold the line. boris johnson _ determined to hold the line. boris johnson would maybe have shifted on the nurses _ johnson would maybe have shifted on the nurses. the point of the prime minister_ the nurses. the point of the prime minister is — the nurses. the point of the prime minister is we cannot afford any rises _ minister is we cannot afford any rises at — minister is we cannot afford any rises at this time and it will lead to higher— rises at this time and it will lead to higher inflation if we do. he is determined to stick to that point. to think— determined to stick to that point. to think politically it can hold quite what they may not be sympathy for all the strikes and polling is very different across different sectors. support for the nurses at this stage is pretty solid. it is re this stage is pretty solid. it is pretty solid. _ this stage is pretty solid. it is pretty solid, certainly from our readers — pretty solid, certainly from our readers. not with the other strikes, quite _ readers. not with the other strikes, quite unanimously, actually. interesting that keir starmer has also said. — interesting that keir starmer has also said, i would not be able to commit — also said, i would not be able to commit to— also said, i would not be able to commit to a 19% either. there needs to he _ commit to a 19% either. there needs to he more _ commit to a 19% either. there needs to be more talks to try to resolve it. i to be more talks to try to resolve it. ~ ., , ., to be more talks to try to resolve it. ~ ., i. .,, to be more talks to try to resolve

it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal— it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal for— it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal for you. _ it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal for you. how _ it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal for you. how do - it. i know your mum was a nurse this is personal for you. how do you - is personal for you. how do you think the government is handling it? you are right, my mum registered as a nurse 60 years ago and has been a nurse on hospital wards, has been a community nurse, a health visitor. she was community editor of nursing times magazine, she was even a nursing journalism. times magazine, she was even a nursingjournalism. she times magazine, she was even a nursing journalism. she still volunteers as a chaplain at the children's hospitaljust around the corner from children's hospitaljust around the cornerfrom lambeth palace. she sees what nurses are going through every week when she volunteers. we see what nurses are going through every day. the fact of the matter is the government must sit down and talk with union leaders about pay. the nurses had been underpaid. too long and that point is it has got to have points where it is unsafe. we need nurses to feel valued and nurses who will continue doing theirjob, so we

need to retain nurses and recruit nurses as well. unless the government gives a little bit of weight on this, we are not going to come to a deal to satisfy the nurses and keep us all safe. in a come to a deal to satisfy the nurses and keep us all safe.— and keep us all safe. in a few moments _ and keep us all safe. in a few moments we _ and keep us all safe. in a few moments we will _ and keep us all safe. in a few moments we will be - and keep us all safe. in a few moments we will be putting i and keep us all safe. in a few. moments we will be putting that and keep us all safe. in a few- moments we will be putting that to oliver dowden. let's show you what the prime minister has been saying this morning, writing for the sun, that union chiefs are behaving like the grinch at christmas. a clear effort from the government to target union leaders and the boss of the rail union in particular. this week has been dominated by strikes, no question about that. let's get our conversation with the government minister in charge of that. nurses, posties, railworkers. the list goes on. oliver dowden has the grand title of chancellor of the duchy of lancaster but his day—to—day job is to manage the strikes

for the prime minister. thatjob is quite an enviable. there is an ambulant strike this week. dishes might —— ambulant strike this week. i dishes might -- ambulant strike this week. ., _ dishes might -- ambulant strike this week. ., ., ., , ., . ., week. i would say to ambulance union leaders the single _ week. i would say to ambulance union leaders the single best _ week. i would say to ambulance union leaders the single best thing - week. i would say to ambulance union leaders the single best thing they - leaders the single best thing they can do to ensure the guarantee is available, even at this late moment, call off the strike may continue to engage and give families and people up engage and give families and people up and down the country a break. on the specifics of it, we have been clear that we are working to ensure that if you have a serious injury, in particular lives —— is a life critical injury, then dial 999. if you have a less serious injury then call 111 and you should seek to make your way to hospital on your own if

your way to hospital on your own if you can do so. the government is working relentlessly to try to ensure we have the high level of service available for people in the most difficult circumstances. it is in the hands of the unions. i would urge the unions to be reasonable in terms of calling off the strike but also in terms of the level of service they are willing to provide. everyone knows it is historic that nurses are walking out in this way. what did you say to a nurse on a starting salary of £27,000 that their contribution to society is worth less and the median salary? tote worth less and the median salary? we saw worth less and the median salary? - saw the contribution of nurses throughout the whole pandemic. that is why last year, when all public sector pay was frozen, we made an exception for nurses, they got 3%. we have put this to the independent pay review body. that ensured nurses across—the—board would get a minimum

of £1400, about a pay rise of 9% man everyone at least would get 4%. the alternative, if we go for the 19% which is being urged on us by nursing unions, that is simply not affordable. this is an important point. if we applied it across—the—board, it would cost families £1000 each and it would also add to inflation make us all poorer in the long run. we will be resolute in endearing so because we need to protect games we have made so far. i5 need to protect games we have made so far. , ., . so far. is it true it would cost £1000 for — so far. is it true it would cost £1000 for every _ so far. is it true it would cost £1000 for every household? | so far. is it true it would cost. £1000 for every household? it so far. is it true it would cost - £1000 for every household? it would otentiall £1000 for every household? it would potentially cost _ £1000 for every household? it would potentially cost more _ £1000 for every household? it would potentially cost more than _ £1000 for every household? it would potentially cost more than that. - £1000 for every household? it would potentially cost more than that. the | potentially cost more than that. the £1000 assumption, if we match inflation next year across—the—board for all public sector workers, it would cost £1000. that is a demonstration of the scale of this. the government is being reasonable, we are being sensible. we are making

progress with the economy and do not put that at risk with these unsustainable demands. this says about these _ unsustainable demands. this says about these numbers. _ unsustainable demands. this says about these numbers. how- unsustainable demands. this says about these numbers. how have l unsustainable demands. this says i about these numbers. how have you worked out it would cost every household £1000 a year to get an inflation matching pay rise? tote household £1000 a year to get an inflation matching pay rise? we have ro'ected inflation matching pay rise? we have projected forward — inflation matching pay rise? we have projected forward to _ inflation matching pay rise? we have projected forward to next _ inflation matching pay rise? we have projected forward to next year - inflation matching pay rise? we have projected forward to next year and i projected forward to next year and it would give £1000 for every family if we matched it for the public sector. ~ ., if we matched it for the public sector. . ., ., ., ., , ., sector. we have had a look at your numbers and _ sector. we have had a look at your numbers and asked _ sector. we have had a look at your numbers and asked the _ sector. we have had a look at your numbers and asked the treasury i sector. we have had a look at your i numbers and asked the treasury how they worked it out. your figures have used the inflation figure of 11%, just for one month. the ab are actually projects next year inflation will be far less than that. —— the inflation will be far less than that. -- the obr. inflation will be far less than that. —— the obr. when you are normally working with pay negotiations you take an average of inflation and notjust one month. it

is not £1000, is it? the inflation and notjust one month. it is not £1000, is it?— is not £1000, is it? the question is renerall is not £1000, is it? the question is generally about _ is not £1000, is it? the question is generally about cbi. _ is not £1000, is it? the question is generally about cbi. the _ is not £1000, is it? the question is generally about cbi. the level- is not £1000, is it? the question is generally about cbi. the level of. generally about cbi. the level of inflation is currently between 10% and ii%. nurses want rpi plus 5%, which gives you 19%. you could argue we are underestimating the number. if that is the case, why has another institution come up with another number? , , , ., number? our number is 'ustified on the basis of — number? our number is 'ustified on the basis of taking h number? our number is 'ustified on the basis of taking the _ number? our number isjustified on the basis of taking the inflation - the basis of taking the inflation number, which is what unions are asking for an projecting it forward to next year. that gives you £28 billion, £1000 per household. you inflation numbers are inaccurate and out of date. nobody expects inflation to micro the obr do not expect inflation to be anything like that next year. —— nobody expects

inflation to... if you want to be honest with people this morning, your numbers are not completely accurate, are they? i your numbers are not completely accurate, are they?— accurate, are they? i completely disauree accurate, are they? i completely disagree with — accurate, are they? i completely disagree with you _ accurate, are they? i completely disagree with you on _ accurate, are they? i completely disagree with you on that. - accurate, are they? i completely disagree with you on that. if- accurate, are they? i completely| disagree with you on that. if they unions say, no, we do not want 19%. that is not the question. this is an important point. that is not the question. this is an important point-— that is not the question. this is an important point. forgive me, we can onl take important point. forgive me, we can only take the — important point. forgive me, we can only take the number _ important point. forgive me, we can only take the number we _ important point. forgive me, we can only take the number we have - important point. forgive me, we can only take the number we have now. | only take the number we have now. the inflation number we have now, it was a bit over 11% last month and hasjob was a bit over 11% last month and has job now to was a bit over 11% last month and hasjob now to 10.7%. it is reasonable to take that number and projected forward as to what it will cost next year. if they are saying they want to have a lower number, thatis they want to have a lower number, that is a different proposition are not what they are coming to the table with. i not what they are coming to the table with-— not what they are coming to the table with. ., ., a i. ., ,., table with. i am asking you about what ministers _ table with. i am asking you about what ministers like _ table with. i am asking you about what ministers like you _ table with. i am asking you about what ministers like you had - table with. i am asking you about what ministers like you had been| what ministers like you had been telling the public. a week's now, that it would cost every single

household in the country £1000 to meet these pay demands. we have looked very carefully at your numbers and many other number crunches looking at than would say your numbers do not quite stack up. if you are repeatedly telling the public something that is a bit misleading, how can people trust you to negotiate and to deal with the unions in good faith? i categorically disagree with you in that assertion. i spent a lot of yesterday and the day before discussing exactly these numbers. these are robust numbers. the unions are saying they want us to match inflation. inflation is currently between 10% and ii%. we gave that across the public sector. for nurses it is a high number. that would cost £28 billion, £1000 per household. the reason we are saying this number, this is important that i would love to give nurses an

enormous pay rise. the prime minister would love to give them a 19% pay rise. the reason we are not doing it is our duty is to everyone, public and private sector, to make sure we have stability in public finances and look at this progress we have made in restoring that. there is a further point, there's of your viewers and listeners engaging with this will have longer memories. they will remember that the inflationary pressures you get when it goes out of control. if we deal with that now we help to get —— we hope to get the economy stronger and then we can afford those pay rises. do you think £27,000 a year for a nurse is getting pay out of control? we are getting back to nurses. on that point when you are talking about the starting salary. the average salary for a typical nurses more like 37,000, when you take into account the extra hours and so on.

of those on lower salaries, they are getting £1400, about 9% pay rise. i would of course like to give them more than that. the only way to do thatis more than that. the only way to do that is by having a strong economy. we cannot risk the stability of our public finances.— we cannot risk the stability of our public finances. that would not be reasonable- _ public finances. that would not be reasonable. you _ public finances. that would not be reasonable. you can _ public finances. that would not be reasonable. you can legitimately. reasonable. you can legitimately make the economic argument even though a lot of economists, including people like the former permanent secretary in the treasury saying giving them a bit more would contribute more. viewers have heard you saying repeatedly you have to follow the recommendations of the pay review bodies. how many times has the government ignored these recommendations this year? if you look across — recommendations this year? if you look across the _ recommendations this year? if you look across the peace _ recommendations this year? if you look across the peace for - recommendations this year? if you look across the peace for all - recommendations this year? if you look across the peace for all the i look across the peace for all the pay review recommendations by taking 20 or 30 in the past four years, there are only about three or four occasions when we have not been able to follow that and they have been exceptional circumstances.- exceptional circumstances. there have been four _ exceptional circumstances. there have been four this _ exceptional circumstances. there have been four this year - exceptional circumstances. there have been four this year alone, i exceptional circumstances. there i have been four this year alone, four when the government has ignored the

pay review bodies, which everybody saysis pay review bodies, which everybody says is independent with a job to do. if you have already ignored them four time to share, why can you not ignore them with the nurses strike? we want to take politics out of it and had an independent process and should adhere to that. notjust us saying it, the labour shadow chancellor has also said it. if we do not have this independent frame that we have no basis for ensuring we do in a fair way across—the—board. it is all about making sure we have a fair, straightforward way of doing this to meet the needs of nurses and other public sector workers whilst balancing the risk. mini; public sector workers whilst balancing the risk.- public sector workers whilst balancing the risk. public sector workers whilst balancin: the risk. . , ., , ., balancing the risk. why was it ok to ianore balancing the risk. why was it ok to ignore those — balancing the risk. why was it ok to ignore those recommendations i balancing the risk. why was it ok to | ignore those recommendations when balancing the risk. why was it ok to i ignore those recommendations when it come to prison service pay or doubles in your servant pay or judges pay or asjeremy hunt who tried to the conditions in 2014, why was it ok then and it wouldn't be now? in was it ok then and it wouldn't be

now? ., , , , . . was it ok then and it wouldn't be now? in those specific circumstances there was a — now? in those specific circumstances there was a cute _ now? in those specific circumstances there was a cute pressure _ now? in those specific circumstances there was a cute pressure on - now? in those specific circumstances there was a cute pressure on public. there was a cute pressure on public finances at at the time. the there was a cute pressure on public finances at at the time.— finances at at the time. the prison service and _ finances at at the time. the prison service and civil _ finances at at the time. the prison service and civil service _ finances at at the time. the prison service and civil service and i finances at at the time. the prison | service and civil service and judges is this year. service and civil service and 'udges is this year.— is this year. give me a moment to answer this _ is this year. give me a moment to answer this question. _ is this year. give me a moment to answer this question. the - is this year. give me a moment to answer this question. the public l answer this question. the public sector pay review bodies have looked at the level of inflation, the expected level of inflation, the pressure on the lowest paid workers, why they have given 9%, so by following that that is ensuring that nurses will get a significantly higher level of pay settlement than previously and by following the pay review body recommendations we are giving some of the highest pay settlements for 20 years. i know everyone across the public and private sector is struggling at the moment with the consequences of the war in ukraine and covid, as we recoverfrom covid, we war in ukraine and covid, as we recover from covid, we want to give people more but i would say to the unions please give families a break this christmas and i2 unions please give families a break this christmas and 12 this independent pay review process and allow us to continue with the

stability and get a stronger economy and then we can give people the kind of pay races we would dearly love to give them. it of pay races we would dearly love to tive them. , ., .., i. give them. it is though, can you acce it, give them. it is though, can you accept. a _ give them. it is though, can you accept, a political— give them. it is though, can you accept, a political choice - give them. it is though, can you | accept, a political choice because in some cases your government has ignored the pay review bodies, making the independent recommendations, in this case when it comes to the nurses you are determined to stick to it so you are making a political choice for the reasons you have outlined, perfectly legitimately, to stick with the recommendations and that means saying no to the nurses and their request for more pay and even right now saying no to even talking about pay with them again. i now saying no to even talking about pay with them again.— pay with them again. i would say three things. _ pay with them again. i would say three things, firstly _ pay with them again. i would say three things, firstly by _ pay with them again. i would say three things, firstly by following | three things, firstly by following those recommendations it is ensuring they get a higher pay settlement than was the case when it wasn't followed in the circumstances you describe, secondly there is a consensus on this or there has been, the labour party, the shadow chancellor endorsed the process and there is a reason why she endorsed

it, because it is taking the politics out of the process. in terms of engaging, our door is always open to engagement with the unions and i would say to people across the private and public sector, and in the private sector of the average pay settlement at the moment is about 4%, we are trying to be reasonable, proportionate and fair, but in return the unions need to be fair and reasonable and should call off the strikes and give people a break at. , ., ,., call off the strikes and give people a break at. , ., . a break at. this matter so much because in _ a break at. this matter so much because in the _ a break at. this matter so much because in the nhs _ a break at. this matter so much because in the nhs and - a break at. this matter so much because in the nhs and nurses| a break at. this matter so much i because in the nhs and nurses you literally cannot get the stuff, i know the government has hired more nurses so we know that, that is true, but in a year more than 34,000 nurses that, and there were 50,000 vacancies, so this isn'tjust about them asking more money, it is about them asking more money, it is about the service that in some places is on its knees because they cannot get the people anderson did the case that unless you are willing to about giving them more pay, that situation is just

giving them more pay, that situation isjust going it giving them more pay, that situation is just going it was? late giving them more pay, that situation is just going it was?— isjust going it was? we are always willint to isjust going it was? we are always willing to talk _ isjust going it was? we are always willing to talk and _ isjust going it was? we are always willing to talk and i _ isjust going it was? we are always willing to talk and i know _ isjust going it was? we are always willing to talk and i know the i willing to talk and i know the health secretary... latte willing to talk and i know the health secretary. . ._ willing to talk and i know the health secretary... we are talking about -a health secretary... we are talking about pay at _ health secretary... we are talking about pay at the — health secretary... we are talking about pay at the moment. - health secretary... we are talking about pay at the moment. you i health secretary... we are talking. about pay at the moment. you race some wider — about pay at the moment. you race some wider points _ about pay at the moment. you race some wider points about _ about pay at the moment. you race some wider points about the i about pay at the moment. you race some wider points about the nhs i some wider points about the nhs which are wholly legitimate, the first thing, it is important to reemphasise, as we have emerged from covid that put huge pressure on the nhs and created enormous backlog is, it is the case that even since the beginning of covid we have many more doctors and nurses who are making good progress towards recruiting. it is happening at the same time as these two enormous pressures on the nhs, one is as we try and recover from the backlog of covid and the second one is just from the backlog of covid and the second one isjust the from the backlog of covid and the second one is just the underlying demographic pressure as we have an ageing population. i know it puts pressure on nurses which is why the prime minister is determined to work through those chances, with delayed discharge but you have to take into account a wider factors at play here. ., , , ., .,, here. one of the results of those wider factors _ here. one of the results of those

wider factors is _ here. one of the results of those wider factors is the _ here. one of the results of those wider factors is the nhs - here. one of the results of those wider factors is the nhs is i here. one of the results of those i wider factors is the nhs is spending widerfactors is the nhs is spending a fortune on agency staff to plug the gaps. which is cheaper, giving the gaps. which is cheaper, giving the nurses a pay rise or paying for agency staff, because the nhs spent about £3 billion on agency staff last year, have you worked that out? we are cracking down on agency spending but have you worked out which is cheaper quality of the r absolutely right that we want to move off a reliance on agency staff and recruit more nurses which is what we are doing notjust with the 50,000 target but why we gave nurses a £5,000 bursary and not reimbursable, so they don't have to pay that back, that was on the recommendation of the rcn which is why we are increasing training places and we know we need to recruit more nurses and we also need to give a pay rise to nurses on the lowest pay which is why we gave them 9.3%, £1400 across the board, that is when pay across a wider private sector, two thirds of the population

work in the private sector, they are getting about 4%. i work in the private sector, they are getting about 496-— work in the private sector, they are getting about 4%. i know things are challenttin getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but _ getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but we _ getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but we are _ getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but we are trying i getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but we are trying to i getting about 4%. i know things are challenging but we are trying to be| challenging but we are trying to be reasonable throughout all this. i would urge the unions to be reasonable tare would urge the unions to be reasonable— would urge the unions to be reasonable , , ., reasonable we will be resolute in res-onse reasonable we will be resolute in response to _ reasonable we will be resolute in response to this _ reasonable we will be resolute in response to this because - reasonable we will be resolute in response to this because it i reasonable we will be resolute in response to this because it will. reasonable we will be resolute in l response to this because it will be irresponsible to allow public sector pay and inflation to get out of control and we have a wider duty to the public to make sure we keep our public finances and to control and rebuild a growing economy and can pay for the things. oliver dowden, thank you very much. it's unlikely that anything will get easier for the government in 2023. but, genuinely, it is hard to imagine it would be any more dramatic than the last year. we only started our conversations together in september. let's take a look back, strap yourself in! hello. and a very warm welcome to a new show and a new political era. tomorrow, one of these two will be

chosen as our new prime minister. you've beaten them all, haven't you? you've outwitted your critics. look, i... i am focused on getting thejob done. well done, liz. see, i'm actually very right wing, and i loved it. - if you don't win this time, would you ever run again? oh, gosh. we'vejust finished this campaign, laura. as one era closes, another opens. she would listen. she would ask questions. she fulfilled her duties right up until the end. and she loved your grandfather. she did love him and he loved her. he loved her. he'd known her since she was a child. and he loved her very much indeed. he revered her. so i put my hands together, i and she put hers outside mine. and we were silent for three minutes. | and, at the end, she said, "amen."

when i got up, - the burden had lifted. there will continue to be an evolution in our relationship. i don't believe it will be... it will be quick or soon. but over the course of my lifetime. if you look at the monarchy and the royal family, they have been steadily evolving a different approach, a different way of doing things over time. and i'm sure that king charles will take that — continue to take that forward. at the accession council, all the former prime ministers, what were you talking about? well, the number of ex—prime ministers is growing. - it's the club that no—one wants i to join and you never get to leave. good morning from the labour party conference in liverpool. what's reasonable in your view? well, look, it's reasonable for people to want a pay rise. it's not for me to wade in and say,

"i think it should be this amount or that amount." an era of massive tax cuts cheered by tories in the chamber. and there's more to come. we've only been here 19 days. i do accept we should have laid the ground better. _ how many people voted for your plan? what do you mean by that? using borrowed money to fund tax cuts.

i do recognise that an incoming i labour government will not be able to do everything we want as quickly as possible. i hello. hi. the prices are going up in ukraine as well. but in addition, our people get killed. russia wanted to take the cities. it failed. russia wanted to subjugate ukraine. it's failed, and it's failing dramatically. ukraine needs drones. they have some drones, but not nearly as many as the russians. |

technology changes even faster than the conservatives change their leader. what i want to be really careful of is there aren't headlines saying "kate winslet attacks big tech." i just think that the people who know that they could do better to protect our children should just be doing that. did you feel a cure for cancer is in your grasp? yes, we feel that a cure for cancer, or change in cancer patient's life is in ourgrasp. three, two, one. and liftoff of artemis 1. we're going to be sending people down to the surface, and they're going to be living on that surface and doing science. what are you hoping to achieve by putting people back on the moon? where could that lead us? moving forward is really to mars. we rise together. back to the moon and beyond.

we have even taken you to domain in this programme. all sorts of things in store after one to 12 months. victoria newton, for you, what is your overriding memory, there is so much turmoil. the your overriding memory, there is so much turmoil-— your overriding memory, there is so much turmoil. the most seismic thing that does happen _ much turmoil. the most seismic thing that does happen to _ much turmoil. the most seismic thing that does happen to our— much turmoil. the most seismic thing that does happen to our nation - much turmoil. the most seismic thing that does happen to our nation this i that does happen to our nation this year has been the death of our beloved queen, we are still feeling that now, the sense of reassurance she gave everybody has now gone and we will be looking at the first—ever kings speech on national telly, the one prior to that was on radio, there have been lots of subtle changes in the king has made already and only last week he was going round hugging people and dancing with people at the jewish round hugging people and dancing with people at thejewish community centre, i don't think the queen would have done that so this change we are going to see more of and obviously politics, wow, how many prime minister, we have in one year? i don't know, susanna, the political turmoil when you watch all of those

groups with different prime minister and ins and outs and exits and arrive us what you make of it? when david cameron said the ex prime minister's club keeps on growing who would have thought it would have grown _ would have thought it would have grown so — would have thought it would have grown so much in one year? i was at downing _ grown so much in one year? i was at downing street back in may interviewing borisjohnson in the wake _ interviewing borisjohnson in the wake of— interviewing borisjohnson in the wake of partygate, in the early stages — wake of partygate, in the early stages of — wake of partygate, in the early stages of the war in ukraine and the cost of— stages of the war in ukraine and the cost of living crisis, my first question— cost of living crisis, my first question to him, are you honest, prime _ question to him, are you honest, prime minister, even in a couple of weeks _ prime minister, even in a couple of weeks he _ prime minister, even in a couple of weeks he was an ex prime minister, he hopes— weeks he was an ex prime minister, he hopes to — weeks he was an ex prime minister, he hopes to come back, he didn't, it has been _ he hopes to come back, he didn't, it has been an— he hopes to come back, he didn't, it has been an absolutely tumultuous year in _ has been an absolutely tumultuous year in politics. you do wonder when the next _ year in politics. you do wonder when the next prime minister came in, liz truss, _ the next prime minister came in, liz truss. how— the next prime minister came in, liz truss, how much, if we hadn't had that catastrophic mini budget, how much _ that catastrophic mini budget, how much we _ that catastrophic mini budget, how much we might have been able to give to the _ much we might have been able to give to the nurses, remarkable interview you just _ to the nurses, remarkable interview you just did — to the nurses, remarkable interview you just did with oliver dowden where — you just did with oliver dowden where he — you just did with oliver dowden where he insisted the government is not going _ where he insisted the government is not going to move an inch over this and when _ not going to move an inch over this and when you think about the fact that when— and when you think about the fact that when you ask people what makes

them proud _ that when you ask people what makes them proud to be british, the nhs and the _ them proud to be british, the nhs and the queen are the two things which _ and the queen are the two things which people kept saying, we have lost the _ which people kept saying, we have lost the queen, and look at the state _ lost the queen, and look at the state of— lost the queen, and look at the state of the nhs, we have spent two years _ state of the nhs, we have spent two years clapping for nurses and other nhs workers and now we want to give them what _ nhs workers and now we want to give them what they are asking for and it is interesting, he said we are not going _ is interesting, he said we are not going to — is interesting, he said we are not going to give them the 19%, i saw pat colin— going to give them the 19%, i saw pat colin on your programme last week_ pat colin on your programme last week suggesting there was room for manoeuvre — week suggesting there was room for manoeuvre at. she week suggesting there was room for manoeuvre at— manoeuvre at. she made it quite clear she wouldn't _ manoeuvre at. she made it quite clear she wouldn't take - manoeuvre at. she made it quite clear she wouldn't take anything | clear she wouldn't take anything didn't but it doesn't sound like we got further forward, but archbishop, i know you have had a huge year but recently he went to ukraine, we can show your viewers the visited picketers a few they are because what strategy and that was because it's such a global event but were you personally affected by the i was. there were a number of different things. there was an extraordinary moment when i was in a

meeting with all the church leaders and all the faith leaders. you have and all the faith leaders. you have an app on your phone which does the air raid warning. everyone's warnings went off. we went into the basement and carried on with the meeting. they were completely relaxed with that, quite used to it. the other thing that struck me was, seeing the site of the mass grave at bucha and the photos of what had been done to people there, the rape, massacres, torture by occupying forces, hearing from those who are studying the ideology, which is driving these tax that it is an ideology of conquest. it wants ukraine, less worried about the people but very worried about

getting historic ukraine back and realising how important it is that we support the ukrainian effort because essentially they are... if they go, it is not going to stop from their ideology. that was very strange. there was a guy called ivan, who is a baptist minister, runs a training college for clergy. he has been... during the occupation he was getting people out across a bridge called the bridge of hope. there are crosses all the way down the side of the bridge, which is blown up. each cross represents someone who was killed by a sniper as they went across. it brings home the reality of the suffering and the importance of our support for ukraine. ., , .,

ukraine. often, there would be a ten suggestions — ukraine. often, there would be a ten suggestions of _ ukraine. often, there would be a ten suggestions of reconciliation, - suggestions of reconciliation, making peace but from what you were saying, that is not possible. —— attempts, suggestions. i saying, that is not possible. -- attempts, suggestions.- saying, that is not possible. -- attempts, suggestions. i have worked in areas of severe _ attempts, suggestions. i have worked in areas of severe conflict. _ attempts, suggestions. i have worked in areas of severe conflict. one i attempts, suggestions. i have worked in areas of severe conflict. one of- in areas of severe conflict. one of the first rules is you cannot talk about reconciliation while the guns firing. people are concentrating on whether they are alive for the next 20 minutes. forthem, 20 minutes. for them, reconciliation... 20 minutes. forthem, reconciliation... they were talking about this, saying, for us, that word means surrender and we're not going to do that. i think it is... there is a way forward and that is withdrawal and ceasefire by russian forces. for withdrawal and ceasefire by russian forces. ., , forces. for people here watching, we are all unusually, _ forces. for people here watching, we are all unusually, for _ forces. for people here watching, we are all unusually, for a _ forces. for people here watching, we are all unusually, for a conflict i are all unusually, for a conflict far away, everyone is feeling the consequences with their energy bills struggling with the cost of living. i remember when we went to kyiv and talk to the first lady, she said it is a price we pay in blood and you

have to pay as well because of the scale of the threat. how do you explain it to people like her, worrying about putting money in the meat is to keep the lights on? that is an enormous _ meat is to keep the lights on? t'isgt is an enormous promise. —— money in the metres. we see it in the church, a 400% increase in people coming to the food banks.— a 400% increase in people coming to the food banks.- 400% - a 40096 increase in people coming to the food banks.- 40096 in i a 400% increase in people coming to the food banks. £00152! 400% in the the food banks. 40096! 40096 in the last 18 months. _ the food banks. 40096! 40096 in the last 18 months, of _ the food banks. 40096! 40096 in the last 18 months, of the _ the food banks. 40096! 40096 in the last 18 months, of the number i the food banks. 40096! 40096 in the last 18 months, of the number of i last 18 months, of the number of people seeking help. we are seeing this continually can get rising high pressures on families at all sorts of levels. —— debt rising. she put it really powerfully, they are paying in blood. they have lost 100,000, dead or killed. that is incredible, half the number of people who died in this country in

three years from covid, an enormous cost. that infrastructure is being destroyed. effectively we're in the same struggle one remove. when ukraine was invaded, at the decision of president putin, the gates of hell were opened and every evil force came out across the world. i was in mozambique the week before i was in mozambique the week before i was in mozambique the week before i was in ukraine, where there is famine, all the way up the east african coast. there is inflation, as we know in this country, there is an energy crisis, there is cold, suffering, shortage of drugs. everything evil has been unleashed and until there is withdrawal and ceasefire, we cannot make progress on reconciliation. in a ceasefire, we cannot make progress on reconciliation.— on reconciliation. in a sense that is a hute on reconciliation. in a sense that is a huge moment _ on reconciliation. in a sense that is a huge moment of— on reconciliation. in a sense that is a huge moment of history, i on reconciliation. in a sense that is a huge moment of history, as| is a huge moment of history, as there has been this year. victoria,

you mentioned it already with the passing of the queen. you are officiating at that ceremony. we can show people the pictures of that taking place and extraordinary three weeks for the country. when you watch that now, archbishop, what goes through your mind? itiihl’hat watch that now, archbishop, what goes through your mind? what goes throuth m goes through your mind? what goes through my mind — goes through your mind? what goes through my mind is _ goes through your mind? what goes through my mind is possibly... i goes through your mind? what goes through my mind is possibly... first| through my mind is possibly... first of all, how beautifully it was done. the fact she was the queen of the whole world. 200 nations represented at the funeral. it was extraordinary. i happen to be six feet away from president biden when he came in. this is the head of the most powerful country on that. his respect was striking for the queen. —— country on earth. my memory goes further than that, it goes further back. she lived life of duty and service to literally the last day of her life. .,

her life. one thing that we understand _ her life. one thing that we understand would - her life. one thing that we understand would have i her life. one thing that we i understand would have been a her life. one thing that we - understand would have been a great sadness to the queen, the conflict in herfamily with harry sadness to the queen, the conflict in her family with harry and sadness to the queen, the conflict in herfamily with harry and meghan. the newspapers have more of that story. we can show you the sunday times and the sand by saying that harry and meghan want an apology and a royal summit. this is in the wake of the netflix series of six episodes in glorious technicolor of their escape from the uk, as they seem to see it and their new life in california. in those programmes and the newspapers, there is a real narrative from harry and meghan that there were some high conspiracy against ban between the palace and parts of the british press. as the editor of the sun, you properly know more about that than anybody. does it stack up? — more about that than anybody. does it stack up? absolutely _ more about that than anybody. does it stack up? absolutely not. - more about that than anybody. does it stack up? absolutely not. i - more about that than anybody. does it stack up? absolutely not. i have i it stack up? absolutely not. i have remembered _ it stack up? absolutely not. i have remembered some _ it stack up? absolutely not. i have remembered some of— it stack up? absolutely not. i have remembered some of my - it stack up? absolutely not. i have remembered some of my dealings it stack up? absolutely not. i have i remembered some of my dealings with them, _ remembered some of my dealings with them, when _ remembered some of my dealings with them, when they were still in the

family _ them, when they were still in the family. never once was i given a negative — family. never once was i given a negative story about other members of the _ negative story about other members of the royal family to look after william — of the royal family to look after william and kate, for example. a lot of the _ william and kate, for example. a lot of the time, — william and kate, for example. a lot of the time, in fact that we were given— of the time, in fact that we were given more _ of the time, in fact that we were given more positive stories about harry— given more positive stories about harry and — given more positive stories about harry and meghan from the royal household, officially. one really good _ household, officially. one really good example, we found out when it was going _ good example, we found out when it was going to be the handy of meghan. we did _ was going to be the handy of meghan. we did not— was going to be the handy of meghan. we did not reveal where it was so it would _ we did not reveal where it was so it would not _ we did not reveal where it was so it would not ruin it for her, that was agreed _ would not ruin it for her, that was agreed with— would not ruin it for her, that was agreed with prince harry. these allegations are not true. it agreed with prince harry. these allegations are not true.- allegations are not true. it has been a global— allegations are not true. it has been a global news _ allegations are not true. it has been a global news sensation. | allegations are not true. it has| been a global news sensation. i think it is ever so sad. at the heart of it is this terrible rift between brothers, between a son and his father. i watched the documentary, ijust feel his father. i watched the documentary, i just feel like your stance on it depends on what you

think the motivation is. there are people who think their motivation is to discredit and dismantle the royal family and therefore they get a lot of reaction from people who think thatis of reaction from people who think that is appalling. there are some people who think their motivation is to use royal titles to get an enormous amount of money, and of course they got $100 million apparently for this netflix series. people think that is incredibly distasteful. i think that motivation is they felt like they just distasteful. i think that motivation is they felt like theyjust had too much scrutiny, publicity, intrusion, invasion of privacy. i know people cough and splutter. i feel like their motivation as they felt like they were hard done by, they felt like she suffered and we know she had these terrible have enormous sympathy for that. we also know how he saw his mother die in the wake of terrible press intrusion and paparazzi, so i

understand they feel like they were intruded upon underside of the story was never told.— was never told. briefly, archbishop, he married them _ was never told. briefly, archbishop, he married them and _ was never told. briefly, archbishop, he married them and you _ was never told. briefly, archbishop, he married them and you know- was never told. briefly, archbishop, he married them and you know all. was never told. briefly, archbishop, i he married them and you know all the characters involved. can you see a way where there might be able to reconcile? i cannot really comment on it because _ i cannot really comment on it because i_ i cannot really comment on it because i married them and there are pastoral— because i married them and there are pastoral confidentiality is. there is always— pastoral confidentiality is. there is always a way forward. but it has to be _ is always a way forward. but it has to be at _ is always a way forward. but it has to be at the — is always a way forward. but it has to be at the right time. as a christian. _ to be at the right time. as a christian. i_ to be at the right time. as a christian, i live in the belief that forgiveness comes from god, through jesus christ, — forgiveness comes from god, through jesus christ, and that god, particularly at this time, breaks into the — particularly at this time, breaks into the world to open the way to forgiveness through the christ child — forgiveness through the christ child. but it has to... the way we welcomed — child. but it has to... the way we welcomed that opportunity is different for everyone. and there has to be a _ different for everyone. and there has to be a right _ different for everyone. and there has to be a right time. _ different for everyone. and there has to be a right time. ok. i different for everyone. and there | has to be a right time. ok. maybe different for everyone. and there i has to be a right time. ok. maybe it is now, maybe next year, maybe

never. we will maybe have another word about that at the end of the programme. thank you very much for that. there were some terrible news about what happened in the channel. four people died after a migrant boat got into difficulties. crossing the english channel on a freezing night. those who were rescued from the dinghy said they had each paid £5,000 to cross the english channel. it happened the day after prime minister announced new measures to "stop the boats" after weeks of anticipation and building pressure from his backbenches. rishi sunak promised a new unit to deal with albanian claims, more staff to monitor small boats, but also to speed up processing asylum claims and controversially, new laws that would say if you enter the uk illegally, you should not be able to stay in the country. the aims — to stop the small boats and clear some of the backlog of asylum cases by the end of next year. the shadow home secretary, yvette cooper, joins us from norwich. good morning. good morning. the last

time ou good morning. good morning. the last time you were — good morning. good morning. the last time you were on _ good morning. good morning. the last time you were on the _ time you were on the programme we asked whether the labour government would want to see higher or lower immigration overall. he did not want to put a number on it then but will you tell us today? higher or lower immigration? the you tell us today? higher or lower immigration?— you tell us today? higher or lower immitration? , immigration? the net figure is under hute levels immigration? the net figure is under huge levels at _ immigration? the net figure is under huge levels at the _ immigration? the net figure is under huge levels at the moment - immigration? the net figure is under huge levels at the moment because | immigration? the net figure is under. huge levels at the moment because of ukraine and support for people from hong kong, rightly, and also afghanistan. we would expect those numbers to come down in future years, and it is right they should do so. we have also set out, you have heard keir starmer setting out proposals around the labour approach to a points—based system. we think we should have a points—based system, but it should be better linked to action of on training and tacking shortages in the economy as well. ~ . ., , ., tacking shortages in the economy as well. ~ , ., , ., tacking shortages in the economy as well. ~ , .,, ., , well. when it comes to small boats, some of the — well. when it comes to small boats, some of the things _ well. when it comes to small boats, some of the things the _ well. when it comes to small boats, some of the things the governmentl some of the things the government announced were things he had been suggesting for a while, more staff,

speeding up claims. keir starmer called this unethical, what was unethical about it? the called this unethical, what was unethical about it? the problem with the approach — unethical about it? the problem with the approach by _ unethical about it? the problem with the approach by the _ unethical about it? the problem with the approach by the government i unethical about it? the problem with the approach by the government is i the approach by the government is they are still not addressing... these boats are dangerous. we have seen lives lost in the icy waters of the channel and criminal gangs are profiting, making huge amounts of money from what has effectively become a pound criminal industry along our border, along the channel. —— a multi—million pound criminal industry. we have had a collapsing decision—making by the home office and the asylum system. it is broken because they had broken it and not taken those decisions. you have to address their system and that means we have to go after it. the government has not gone after the criminal gangs, getting prosecutions

and targeting what has become this criminal industry, which is putting lives at risk. what we have said as we would cancel the unworkable, unethical and unaffordable rebound to plan, which even the home secretary admits his failing and use that money for major expansion, a new unit in the national crime agency to go after those gangs and get prosecutions and get people in jailfor get prosecutions and get people in jail for the crimes they had committed.— jail for the crimes they had committed. t ., ., ., committed. would you guarantee as home secretary _ committed. would you guarantee as home secretary in _ committed. would you guarantee as home secretary in a _ committed. would you guarantee as home secretary in a labour - home secretary in a labour government would cut the numbers of people coming in small boats question everybody should be trying to cut the number of dangerous boat crossings, they are putting lives at risk. ., , ., , ., ., risk. that should be a 'oint objective i risk. that should be a 'oint objective with i risk. that should be a 'oint objective with britain i risk. that should be a joint objective with britain and i risk. that should be a joint i objective with britain and france and other countries working together as well. you need a stronger agreement with france in order to do that. we have called for a replacement for the dublin agreement meant to have an agreement around

returns with france as well. there meant to have an agreement around returns with france as well.- returns with france as well. are you sa int if returns with france as well. are you saying if he — returns with france as well. are you saying if he were — returns with france as well. are you saying if he were home _ returns with france as well. are you saying if he were home secretary i returns with france as well. are you | saying if he were home secretary for labour you would cut the number of small boat arrivals and we will judge you on that? i small boat arrivals and we will judge you on that?— small boat arrivals and we will judge you on that?- small boat arrivals and we will judge you on that? i am being very clear that this _ judge you on that? i am being very clear that this would _ judge you on that? i am being very clear that this would be _ judge you on that? i am being very clear that this would be our - clear that this would be our objective with france and should be the objective of the british government and frankie should be the objective of everyone to cut the numbers of boats, to prevent lives being lost. everyone should be pulling out all of the stops to try to prevent dangerous boat crossings. in order to do that you had to say you need major expansion of the national crime agency to go after their gangs. ile national crime agency to go after their gangs-— national crime agency to go after. their gangs-_ it their gangs. he made that point. it was a tiny number. _ one of the reason this problem has become acute is there is a lack of legal routes into the country, you say you want to reform the safe route into the country, right now you can only come from a refugee camp or afghanistan or hong kong or ukraine, would a labour government

add countries to that list, for example we see the brave female protesters in iran, would labour offer a route for people to come here from iran?— offer a route for people to come here from iran? ., , here from iran? one of the things we said ou here from iran? one of the things we said you should _ here from iran? one of the things we said you should do _ here from iran? one of the things we said you should do is _ here from iran? one of the things we said you should do is if— here from iran? one of the things we said you should do is if you _ here from iran? one of the things we said you should do is if you should i said you should do is if you should get a replacement, the old dublin agreement, it included a family reunion rate for those who for example refugees who had a family in the united kingdom but it also included safe returns for those who had claimed asylum or had been through other countries in france and other countries as well, the government said that they would try and get a replacement for the dublin agreement but they didn't actually try to do that. i agreement but they didn't actually try to do that-— try to do that. i am asking you a s-ecific try to do that. i am asking you a specific question _ try to do that. i am asking you a specific question about - try to do that. i am asking you a specific question about whether| specific question about whether labour would add countries to the list from where people would be able to come to the uk, there is a specific question there, would you put a run on the list, we see on tv screens what is happening there, would you make it possible for people to come from there directly to the uk? i5 people to come from there directly to the uk? , ., ., ,

to the uk? is one of the things the government _ to the uk? is one of the things the government set _ to the uk? is one of the things the government set out _ to the uk? is one of the things the government set out i _ to the uk? is one of the things the government set out i think - to the uk? is one of the things the government set out i think a i to the uk? is one of the things the government set out i think a few. government set out i think a few years ago, sajid javid set out, was a wider resettlement scheme that would allow people to come from other countries as well and it would be a managed way to do that. the government in theory has it in place but it is not actually working properly. one of the things you could do is make that system work effectively, however if you simply look at the resettlement issues without tackling the criminal gangs you don't address this problem because what happens is the criminal gangs just increase their marketing and advertising on tik tok that is a type of thing. you and advertising on tik tok that is a type of thing-— type of thing. you have made that toint but type of thing. you have made that point but let's. .. _ type of thing. you have made that point but let's. .. you _ type of thing. you have made that point but let's. .. you have - type of thing. you have made that point but let's. .. you have to i type of thing. you have made that point but let's. .. you have to lookj point but let's. .. you have to look at the things _ point but let's. .. you have to look at the things hand-in-hand. i point but let's. .. you have to look i at the things hand-in-hand. another s-ecific at the things hand-in-hand. another specific example, _ at the things hand-in-hand. another specific example, we _ at the things hand-in-hand. another specific example, we asked - at the things hand-in-hand. another specific example, we asked you i at the things hand-in-hand. another. specific example, we asked you about to run, i am specific example, we asked you about to run, iam not specific example, we asked you about to run, i am not sure we quite got an answer but let's ask a different question, with a 16—year—old orphan from an east african country escaping persecution who was not on a refugee camp have a legal way to get to the uk if labour were in

government? latte get to the uk if labour were in government?— get to the uk if labour were in government? we have said there should be away _ government? we have said there should be away for _ government? we have said there should be away for child - government? we have said there j should be away for child refugees are on their own to be able to rejoin family in the uk. but are on their own to be able to rejoin family in the uk.- are on their own to be able to rejoin family in the uk. but if they don't have family _ rejoin family in the uk. but if they don't have family in _ rejoin family in the uk. but if they don't have family in the _ rejoin family in the uk. but if they don't have family in the uk - rejoin family in the uk. but if they don't have family in the uk would | don't have family in the uk would they be able to come here safely? ii they be able to come here safely? if they be able to come here safely? if they don't we obviously had the dubs arrangement which we have supported which would allow the uk to do its bit alongside other countries, but bearin bit alongside other countries, but bear in mind what should be important there is the best interests of the child. that child may be should be looked after in other countries and that decision has to be taken in the best interests of the child, but what are present at the moment is any way for a child refugee who may have a brother or an aunt in the uk, it may be their only relative that can look after them, they're used to be away for those families to be reunited at the government ripped that up when they ripped up the dublin agreement and that is why we think you should have that new arrangement in place alongside safe returns and that is a kind of thing that would help

address some of these issues, but i keep going back to it, it is really important that unless you go out to the criminal gangs alongside any of these measures, the strategy won't really address the small boats. there are other changes to the law. there are other changes to the law. the government has introduced this notion of the nationality and borders act where you create an offence of illegal entry. that matters because it makes a criminal of anyone who comes this country who hasn't taken a legal route, if they haven't got permission. would you scrap that offence if you win the election? it scrap that offence if you win the election? , ., ., ~' scrap that offence if you win the election? , ., ., ,, , election? it is not working, is it? that wasn't _ election? it is not working, is it? that wasn't a _ election? it is not working, is it? that wasn't a question, - election? it is not working, is it? that wasn't a question, would i election? it is not working, is it? | that wasn't a question, would you scrap it? it that wasn't a question, would you scra- it? , ., ., ., scrap it? it is important to look at what the government _ scrap it? it is important to look at what the government has - scrap it? it is important to look at what the government has done, i scrap it? it is important to look at i what the government has done, they promised a whole series of thing in their nationalities and borders bill, they promised they would make it a criminal offence, that it would stop the boat crossing, that it would break the business model, that it would cut the number of boats and that everybody would be returned. in fact the opposite has happened. but

yvette cooper, i am asking you a very specific question, if you were home secretary, the government has introduced this concept, this offence of coming to this country are taking an illegal entry, with a labour government scrapped that offence? it is really important for all the reasons that you have been saying but it is a very specific question, would you scrap metal fence? it question, would you scrap metal fence? , , , ., ., fence? it is but it is important to see why it _ fence? it is but it is important to see why it is _ fence? it is but it is important to see why it is not _ fence? it is but it is important to see why it is not working, i fence? it is but it is important to see why it is not working, laura. j fence? it is but it is important to i see why it is not working, laura. if it does not working why wouldn't you scrap it? let it does not working why wouldn't you scra- it? ,., , ,., , scrap it? let me disappoint. it is important _ scrap it? let me disappoint. it is important because _ scrap it? let me disappoint. it is important because it _ scrap it? let me disappoint. it is important because it is - scrap it? let me disappoint. it is important because it is not i scrap it? let me disappoint. it is i important because it is not working, which we have seen instead is an increase in the number of boats, a drop in the number of decisions being taken, longer delays in the system, and all they have done is mmp system, and all they have done is ramp up the rhetoric. what it shouldn't be is a criminal offence for someone to arrive in from ukraine who has been fleeing persecution and conflict. ukrainians can come here _ persecution and conflict. ukrainians can come here legally _ persecution and conflict. ukrainians can come here legally as _ persecution and conflict. ukrainians can come here legally as you i persecution and conflict. ukrainians can come here legally as you well. can come here legally as you well know? �* , ., �* ., know? but if they don't have the ri t ht know? but if they don't have the right papers _ know? but if they don't have the right papers they _ know? but if they don't have the right papers they are _ know? but if they don't have the right papers they are effectivelyl right papers they are effectively committing a crime. but right papers they are effectively committing a crime.— right papers they are effectively committing a crime. but if as you say- -- that _

committing a crime. but if as you say... that doesn't _ committing a crime. but if as you say... that doesn't make - committing a crime. but if as you say... that doesn't make any i committing a crime. but if as you i say... that doesn't make any sense and doesn't — say... that doesn't make any sense and doesn't help _ say... that doesn't make any sense and doesn't help so _ say. .. that doesn't make any sense and doesn't help so i _ say... that doesn't make any sense and doesn't help so i don't - say... that doesn't make any sense and doesn't help so i don't think i and doesn't help so i don't think that should be the arrangement and we voted against the nationalities and borders bill because all it has done is increased the rhetoric and it has made the problem worse. this is a really important and specific question. iaisle is a really important and specific tuestion. ~ ., is a really important and specific tuestion. . ., , ., , question. we have seen more boats arrivint question. we have seen more boats arriving stop — question. we have seen more boats arriving stop but _ question. we have seen more boats arriving stop but i _ question. we have seen more boats arriving stop but i will _ question. we have seen more boats arriving stop but i will have - arriving stop but i will have another go, if labour wins the election and you're the home secretary election and you're the home secreta j ., election and you're the home secreta j ., , ., election and you're the home secretary— election and you're the home secreta j ., , ., ., election and you're the home secreta j ., ., ., secretary would you get rid of that a criminal offence _ secretary would you get rid of that a criminal offence of— secretary would you get rid of that a criminal offence of illegal - secretary would you get rid of that a criminal offence of illegal entry? j a criminal offence of illegal entry? i answered your question, laura, because the point is it is wrong to have a situation where if somebody arrives from ukraine with the wrong papers that should be a criminal offence. it is already against the immigration laws, there are ways in which you can have an immigration response and the asylum system already should be able to return people who are not fleeing persecution and conflict, that is not happening either at the moment, which is why we called for a fast track for albania because you do have people, and other safe countries, you do have people arriving in the united kingdom who

are then from countries that are not fleeing persecution and conflict, no decision has been taken on the cases, less than i% of cases from albania in the last year have been decided, and that means that people aren't being returned if they are not playing the persecution of conflict but refugees who are getting support. we think there should be a fast—track system. make the asylum system work, make, return those who are not fleeing persecution of conflict, support those who are because the uk has always done its bit to help those fleeing persecution and conflict, but don't make people who are fleeing persecution and conflict, for example from ukraine, into criminals because it is unworkable as well as being wrong. iaisle criminals because it is unworkable as well as being wrong.— as well as being wrong. we must leave it there. _ as well as being wrong. we must leave it there. a _ as well as being wrong. we must leave it there. a huge _ as well as being wrong. we must leave it there. a huge agenda i as well as being wrong. we must | leave it there. a huge agenda and as well as being wrong. we must i leave it there. a huge agenda and it is great to have you on the programme as ever. now, you didn't think you were going to get to the end of 2022 without hearing more about space did you? nearly 26 days after it launched into space, the orion capsule splashed down

into the pacific ocean this week, after a fiery re—entry into earth's atmosphere. you might remember before it set off we spoke to its designer, howard hu. now it's back, so is he. iasked him, "where is orion right now?" well, right now, it's still in san diego. we're going to be taking it off the uss portland in the next few days and then put it on a transportation fixture, and then driving across the country back to the kennedy space center. what was it like for you seeing the capsule in action flying through space? it was just a tremendous sense of pride for what we've accomplished along the way, not only just the mission itself, but what it took to get to launch and get to deep space. and then also just how i was maybe surreal. i don't know. that's kind of, you know, you're trying to not only, you know, execute the mission, but as a fan, as a fan of human spaceflight, you know, watching it and being on —

inspired by the images and what it means to me personally as a first step to, you know, a sustainable presence we're going to have out not only in the moon, but beyond. we spoke before. you said it's a bit like being an anxious parent. did it work out as you hoped or did anything surprise you? i would say better than i hoped. you know, exceeded all our expectations in terms ofjust how well it performed across all the subsystem areas. you know, we had some minor issues that we had to deal with, but nothing that certainly raised, i would say, a huge concern for us. every day i couldn't... i would say i couldn't wait to go into work just to see what's happening, you know, what was going on. so yeah, definitely wanted to watch our baby take its first steps and really be independent. if humans had been on board the flight,

would they have survived? oh, yeah. i mean, except for, you know, we didn't have air and water and food. you need those kinds of things, i would say. but certainly from a flying perspective and, you know, we'll obviously see the data come back. but all expectation is certainly the spacecraft is huma—rated and ready to fly people. and what did you learn from those amazing images? i know others will be reviewing the images. you know, i think for me, as more of a fan of space, i would say that the beauty of our earth, the beauty of the moon, it was just amazing. and hopefully we'll find some other surprising images that we didn't get on the streaming, or we haven't downloaded yet and we'll have some more beautiful shots. and did the landing, go according to plan? oh, it was... i mean, it went as planned, exceedingly well, i would say.

you know, we, our target landing site our requirement, what we want to do is 5.4 nautical miles. we hit it within 2.1 nautical miles. so overall performance was amazingly well. our guidance system, our navigation system operated. and, of course, you saw our big, big three chutes came out. they came out as planned, beautifully executed, brought it down to about 16 miles per hour. so we came from 24,581 miles at entry interface down to landing about 16 miles per hour. there was this incredible bounce. i mean, in simple terms, can you explain how it works? the very simple term, it's very much like skipping a rock across a pond. 0k. and what we're trying to do is really increase the range so that we can hit... actually, i wouldn't use the word hit. land safely at a precise point every time we come back from the moon. and that's the whole idea of skip entry. what about getting people to mars? has this mission made that more realistic? so the moon is a great opportunity

for us to learn and live and operate and then take the... i would say another really big step to go to mars. and i hope i can see that in my lifetime. certainly excited to be able to provide that first step and be part of that first step going forward. there is, though, a scarcity of resources on earth and people are worried about climate change. do you worry about devoting resources instead to space missions? i don't know how to answer that question in terms of, you know, the resources and things like that. i think we have challenges across a lot of areas, but certainly space inspires, space drives, i think, the best of us and exploration and being able to advance the technologies that will, i think, benefit everybody on earth, as we try to meet the challenges in the deep space are going to be one of the things that i think, when we reflect back

on history will show that we were able to make those kinds of benefits for everybody. there is a lot of competition getting into space, though. is nasa going to beat the billionaires? i don't see it as a race. i see it more as a cooperative effort to try to advance as much as we can as people on this planet to try to get to another planet. howard hu, such a pleasure. thank you so much. there is a man with exciting 2023 predictions.

this is bbc news broadcasting in the uk and around the globe. our top stories... will it be messi's moment, or another marker for mbappe, as argentina take on reigning champions france in the world cup final? excitement for the game has reached fever pitch, with fans in buenos aires and paris getting ready for the cup's conclusion. the iranian film actress, taraneh alidoosti, is arrested as anti—government protests continue in iran for a fourth month. ministers in the uk have confirmed that 1200 members of the armed forces — and 1,000 civil servants — will be drafted in to cover for striking ambulance and border force staff over christmas.