tv HAR Dtalk BBC News December 30, 2022 4:30am-5:00am GMT
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this is bbc news. the headlines: the brazilian government has declared three days of national mourning following the death at the age of 82 of the footballer pele. he was widely considered to be the greatest player of all time, and remains the only player to have won the world cup three times. ukrainian officials say a fresh barrage of russian missile strikes has inflicted significant damage to the national power grid. dozens of missiles were fired from the air and the sea during a five—hour onslaught. at least three people were injured by explosions in the capital, kyiv. the british fashion designer dame vivienne westwood has died at the age of 81. she made a name for herself
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in the 1970s as one of the creative forces behind the punk rock scene. she went on to dress some of the world's biggest stars. now on bbc news, it's stephen sackur with hardtalk�*s review of the year. there will be a lot of blood in the land and it will be a lot of refugees. we expected that it's going to be a pretty, well, long timely operation, and it absolutely goes as planned. this has become much bigger than ukraine versus russia. l we can succeed only- and only if we stay united. let me tell you a secret. i had possession of all the chelsea manning information. any method that was made available, i would have taken.
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there was nothing that was going to stop me. you give clinton a pass and you go after trump forjust mishandling. classified information, you-u have — a real problem in america. welcome to hardtalk�*s look back at another year of compelling interviews. i'm stephen sackur. when historians review 2022, they will surely begin with a simple, grim observation. this year saw the first all—out invasion of a european country since world war ii. as the year began, vladimir putin was preparing the biggest geopolitical gamble of his life, transforming russia's low—intensity military operation in ukraine into a full—scale assault aimed at installing a moscow—friendly regime in kyiv. as putin massed his invasion force,
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ukrainians pleaded with the west to act to make the kremlin think again. the main message — let's show to the kremlin that you are seriously understand the all threats and you can make this invasion, erm, very expensive for them. and you can start with the sanctions on this moment, before, not after. if they do not, will you regard that as a betrayal? it will be very late because it will be a lot of blood in the land and it will be a lot of refugees. it will be disaster for the europe because this war is not only east of ukraine, this war is going in east of europe. russia's invasion was conducted on multiple fronts but the assault stalled. ukrainian resistance was fierce and well planned. the russians were pushed back. they never took control of kyiv or kharkiv. as they retreated from towns
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like bucha, they left a trail of devastation, death and evidence — evidence of alleged war crimes. it would be naive from the west to expect that this operation could end in a week. i have heard speculation about it and some people would say, well, it should end quickly. i don't think so, because russian forces are very careful, so they don't hurt the civilian population. if they wanted to finish it very quickly, locally, they could just, you know, smash the whole territory. but we don't do it. we do as careful as possible so the civilians don't suffer. but that sort of misses one key point, doesn't it? we understand very clearly that vladimir putin expected ukrainian resistance to be minimal. he expected resistance to crumble and that his forces could rush straight to kyiv and take control
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of the country. and one reason we know that is that state media in russia, for example, the ria novosti news agency, had prepared victorious articles which were published by mistake within two days of the invasion, declaring victory. that's what you thought would happen, but it didn't. well, in fact, i wouldn't speculate on this topic because we still don't know if this is true and if any russian agencies were trying and who did any news about celebrating any victory. as much as i know, as a member of russian parliament, we expected that it's going to be a pretty, well, long timely operation, and it absolutely goes as planned. and nobody, i guess, knows what is the plan of president putin is because this is secret information that is not revealed to ordinary civilians, including the members of the parliament. you cannot even imagine how much people has
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been suffering here. my friends has been murdered, tortured. my family has been hiding in a bombshell for two weeks, just as thousands and thousands of families. women's has been raped. some of them are pregnant. people were...more than 1,400 people has been simply shelled on the streets in their heads. when the invasion began, the biden administration feared ukraine would be defeated. but when ukraine showed its ability to resist, calculations in the us and europe rapidly changed. here was a geopolitical moment of truth. the security and the credibility of the west was at stake. putin had to be confronted. ifully agree that this has become much bigger than ukraine versus russia. i think most of us in the west over the last few years, particularly here in this country, have felt, whether it's with covid, some of the political dysfunction in this country, can liberal democracy be successful against authoritarian regimes
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like russia or china? and i think what at least the ukrainian people have said is they are voting with their lives to say we will give up our lives to have a taste of the kind of freedom that we in the west enjoy every day. and i think we all do need to rise to that occasion. but is there a danger of going too far? we are dealing with the leader of the world's second nuclear superpower. when you take the stance you are taking that, in essence, putin cannot be allowed to continue, aren't you risking nuclear war? and the countervailing risk is to turn a blind eye to the type of atrocities that we in the west... ..have said we will stand firmly against. where this leads, i think that is absolutely the right question to pose me and to other leaders across the west. but the notion...but the notion that we would suddenly turn a blind eye and say
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when this is...all is forgiven and we're going to invite you back in to the club of respectable world leadership, erm, you know, i'm not sure how that meeting goes. we can succeed only and only if we stay united and if we have the solidarity, because it's also a political aspect. but if we give up now, what do we say? what do we say to ukrainians? we say we give up on you. yeah — and we cannot do that. i mean, those guys are fighting for us. they are fighting because they are fed, and with our support, when i speak to denys shmyhal or volodymyr zelensky, you know, when i see in their eyes their bravery, it's also because they know that they have the support of the european union, they have the vision of being part of the european union. they have the vision of democratic and free country. and this is how serious this war is. you only have the active support for your military invasion of ukraine from belarus, north korea, syria and eritrea — four dictatorships. even china, which is supposed to be your friend,
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says that ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty must be respected. you're out of friends. i do not think the assessment is right. i, er, iam not sure that your attempts to isolate russia succeeded. i think that the west perhaps made some tactical gains, but it is losing strategically. one thing that is a clear outcome of those sanctions that the west introduced is that you lost practically any leverage on russia at all. the west slapped unprecedented economic sanctions on russia — the aim, to cripple the russian economy and target putin's inner circle — his oligarch backers and theirfamilies. the hope was to undermine putin's internal position. i don't agree with being in a sanctions. and, you know, i've said previously that i intend to fight it.
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perhaps now is not the right time because, you know, if you look at the whole situation that's happening against, you know, athletes and the general case, you know, it's cancel culture against my country. are you seeing the pictures that are coming out of ukraine? the civilians shot dead, some of them bound, apparently atrocities committed by russian forces before they left towns and villages around kyiv. are you seeing that yourself? sighs stephen, i live in the same world as you, although we perhaps are three, four hours away from each other by plane, but, you know, it is very painful to watch that. are you and alexei navalny, are you disappointed in the russian people, that the russian people haven't, in the last six months, taken to the streets? when navalny tweeted out,
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"we should not be a nation of frightened cowards," he urged people to conduct daily protests against the war. that hasn't happened. is there a level of disappointment it didn't happen? perhaps, yes, i have it. do i understand and get completely why it hasn't happened? also, yes. and i would never, ever dare to blame russian people for not going into the streets right now, because i understand the level of risk involved. the ukraine invasion has not gone to putin's plan, but he can't afford to show weakness, which is why he continues to raise the stakes, alluding to a willingness to defend russia by any and all means necessary. he knows we know what that might mean. what i have seen, actually, that he has, like a poker player, put all in, including himself and his fate. and, er...
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..it�*s very difficult to try to estimate. i don't know him, but... ..for any person who is in such a position, what will happen when the truth comes to your face? some of the most powerful images of protest in 2022 have come from iran. the street demonstrations against the country's islamic government and the regime's brutal response are not unprecedented. but what is new is the identity of the protesters. this was a movement led by women and girls, a demand for freedom from oppression and subjugation, sparked by the death in detention of a young kurdish iranian woman, mahsa amini. and it had deep resonance in neighbouring afghanistan where renewed taliban rule
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has meant loss of liberty and education for women and girls. the islamic republic actually count women like second—class citizens. they lash us. they put us in jail. if we show our hair, you know, the isis does the same. but hang on. hang on. i'm also mindful that, you know, there are very successful women in iran. you can look at engineers, you can look at pilots, you can look at athletes, you can look at artists. you know, to talk in those terms about 21st—century iran, is that useful? is that helpful to your cause? that's actually — that's a very good question. but let me tell you something. where are these intellectual women? more than 60% of university in iran, across iran, being occupied by brave, smart, intellectual women.
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but you're kidding me? these women are not mature enough to choose what they want to wear? these women are not allowed to go to stadium. these women are not allowed to dance, to sing, to show their hair, to travel abroad without getting permission from their husband. these women are not allowed to get a passport without getting permission from a male relative. so this is what isis do. this is what taliban do. that's why i'm saying that this regime actually trying to show the rest of the world that "we are a normal regime, we respect women's rights," but they are lying. what taliban does in terms of the, you know, first of all, i don't really understand the logic because they allow girls up to grade six, which is like 11, 12 years old. and they are using this as a leverage. it's not islamic. let's be clear. what taliban do, you don't find it in any muslim country. they're using that as a leverage for the world so that when tomorrow, they announce schools to be open or reopen for girls, the world recognise them. so, they are using women and girls' rights, unfortunately, as a leverage.
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2022 reminded us of a fundamental geopolitical truth — the us remains the most powerful nation on earth. without their support, ukraine's resistance would have been impossible. america's economic power remains unrivalled, even by china. but in 2022, the us continued to be afflicted by political dysfunction and polarisation. the fallout from the trump presidency — and, in particular, his refusal to accept the legitimacy of his electoral defeat — continues to divide america. and trump, don't forget, is running again. we do have a major political party — abraham lincoln's party — which now, today, has been taken over by donald trump and has positioned itself outside the constitutional order. they attack our constitutional processes. they attack the outcome of our elections. and that really should be — the foremost responsibility of a political party is to accept election results, even if they don't go your way.
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you give clinton a pass and you go after trump forjust mishandling classified information, you'll have a real problem in america. and what i hope is we'll have a legal system we all can trust. i'm not asking to stop the investigation against president trump, i'm asking the media not to try him before we get all the information and i'm trying to tell you and your audience that the topics that will decide the next election won't be this. right. but when you talk about rioting on the streets, can you understand that some will make a link between that and joe biden who, just a day or two ago, made a very important speech to the american public, saying, quote, "the republican party is dominated, driven "and intimidated by trump and maga — make america great "again republicans and their extreme ideology". yeah. he's saying, "there are dark forces at work who are inciting "violence," and i think he may
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see you as one of them. well, the bottom line here is i don't want violence at any level and the speech by president biden was pathetic, in my view, and desperate, because he's running for re—election based on the idea you should be afraid of donald trump, i guess, me and every other conservative republican in the country. what he should be running on is his record, and he can't. one big theme on hardtalk in 2022 was the tension between transparency and secrecy in democratic societies. now, all governments want to keep secrets in the name of national security but what if they use that secrecy to cover up lies or wrongdoing? what is the public entitled to know? this year, we focused on the cases of so—called whistle—blowers, like former us army intelligence analyst chelsea manning and wikileaks founderjulian assange, who is imprisoned in the uk, facing extradition to the us. there's no question
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that he's a journalist, but he is being accused of conspiring with a source. and what does that mean? well, he spoke to his source and if that is a crime, then everyjournalist — at least those that speak to sources — are now exposed to being prosecuted and put in prison. you did the war logs and the war diaries dump and then, you then released all of these diplomatic cables which had different kinds of information — secret, confidential information — involving the us government's contacts with individuals on the ground in a whole host of countries. just to take one small example, but not small to the individual involved, an ethiopian journalist, reporter — argaw ashine — was forced to flee the country because he was named in a us cable and he believed it put his life in immediate danger. he had to flee, leave his homeland, and again, wouldn't have happened had you not taken your decision to leak.
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again, you know, you're talking about situations that i'm not familiar with, that weren't brought before a court martial. but that's the point — you weren't familiar with them because there's no way you could have gone through the information. you just, to use the word again, dumped it. and after all these years, i just... i'm fascinated to know whether there's a part of you that thinks you got it wrong. i mean, i don't think i've got it wrong. i think that this information needed to be made public. i think that any method that was made available, i would've taken. there was nothing that was going to stop me. let me tell you a secret. i had possession of all the chelsea manning information before it came out in the press. did you? julian — i've never said that publicly. julian assange had conveyed to me as a backup in case his was, you know, they caught him and they got everything. he could rely on me to find some way to get it out if i felt, so i had all that. and when i say that, i'm saying that by the current
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standing of the department ofjustice, lam now as indictable as julian assange and as everyone who put that information out — the papers, everybody who handled it. yes, i had copies of it and i did not give them to an authorised person. so, if they want to indict me for that, iwould be interested to argue that one in the courts, whether that law is constitutional. freedom of speech is seen as a foundation stone of free societies but 2022 has been a year of culture wars with fierce debate in many countries about the limits on free expression. who decides what is acceptable and what is not? do people have a right not to be offended? this is sensitive territory, crossing lines of race, religion and gender, and artists of all types have to navigate it. comedy is built for short bits, and that is where you can get into trouble because if you
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just go for the gag, you may get into trouble. so now, in my concert pieces, i have never done more set—up in my life because sometimes, you need set—up, and "i'd "better say this before they cancel me, i'm "going to say this..." there's more explication... there's more explanation, not so much, you know, not so much stuff that's going to take away from the gag. you can do it in an economical way. but i find that when i look at the totality of my show, it used to be, like, 200 laughs. now, it's, like, 150 laughs but you need that extra buffer. you need to kind of explain yourself. you have overseen the royal shakespeare company in, if i can put it this way, the sort of beginnings of the age of woke — a discussion, particularly in this country but not just in this country, which involves culture in a discussion about diversity, representation, identity. is that a pressure you have felt and has it affected the way you've produced shakespeare? i think it definitely has.
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i don't know that i would call it a pressure. i think it's... it's really listening to what shakespeare himself says about theatre holding a mirror up to nature. and if it isn't reflecting the society in which you live, then you're not doing it right. so i, you know, ithink that particularly about diversity, you know? if you, as a young, maybe as a young black guy growing up in tottenham, or a young asian woman growing up in coventry, say, and you look at the rsc's work or you see our live—froms in the cinema, maybe, and you don't see somebody who looks like you up on that screen... which historically, you haven't. yeah. well, i mean, you know, the first black actor to appear in stratford was in 1958 and we have, i think, we have actually pioneered diversity. from the invasion of ukraine to a terrible internal conflict
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in ethiopia, 2022 offered up a host of new reasons to question mankind's ability to rise above extremism and hate. allegations of genocide and war crimes have not been consigned to history, which is why hardtalk�*s last words this year must come from the remarkable tova friedman — a child survivor of auschwitz. i'm wondering whether it's in our nature to think that if we get rid of our neighbour, we'll be happier? what did we do? what did my family do to be murdered? they were coming to a synagogue like this — this is an orthodox synagogue. they came to a synagogue like that. they prayed. they made sabbath. they ate kosher — i am kosher, too — and what is it exactly
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that we did to deserve to be annihilated? i have no answer. if you do, please... i don't, but i am fascinated to end our conversation with this question for you. as you sit here with me in this synagogue and as we reflect on everything that happened to you and your family and the fact that, 77 years on, you are so full of life and passion and commitment and a determination to do better, can you say that you feel optimistic about the human condition, or not? 0h, gee. depends on the day! some days i feel great, when i read such wonderful things during covid — what people did for each other, how they helped each other, and so forth. and then, i turn the channel and somebody�*s killed somebody else and so forth and so on. very — but i — i'll tell you what.
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without hope, it'd be hard to wake up in the morning. so, yes, i have hope. i do, i have hope. from the faces of the children when i speak to them, yes, i do, because otherwise, nothing would be worth anything. and life is worth it, and i love it. i can't think of a better way to end. tova friedman, it has been a pleasure to have you on hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you. hello there. after a day of sunshine and blustery showers on thursday, the winds are still going to be quite
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strong on friday. and we've got more rain heading our way as well. and that could be bringing some flooding issues in one or two places. have a look at the satellite picture from earlier on. you can see all that cloud that's been pushing in from the atlantic, thickening up, and these weather fronts, areas of low pressure, strengthening the winds and bringing rain into many western and northern parts of the uk. it's notjust rain around though, because in northern scotland, it's cold enough in the hills to find some more snow falling, could be as much as 20 centimetres, perhaps. some heavier rain briefly across northern ireland, but it could be even wetter across southern parts of scotland, a couple of inches or more of rain, and here in the south of the country, we've got this amber rain warning from the met office. given how wet it's been recently, more rain is likely to bring some flooding and travel disruption. we've got rain notjust in scotland and northern ireland, but pushing eastwards quickly across england and wales on those stronger winds. you can see how most of that wet weather moves away for the afternoon, brightening up from the west with some sunshine, showers coming
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into northern ireland and southern scotland and turning drier across northern parts of the country, perhaps later as well. here, it's going to be quite chilly, 4 degrees in stornoway, 13 celsius, though, in london, another mild day for england and wales and mild again on saturday. but there is more rain at times and that rain could be a bit steadier and heavier in the south for a while. maybe some patchy rain across southern scotland and northern ireland. some sunshine further north, but a few wintry showers in the far north of the country. scotland, very mild in east anglia in the south east, 15 degrees here. we've got more rain though to come if you are going to be out celebrating the new year, with low pressure and a number of weather fronts. and the details keep changing as we head into new year's day, we've now got some wetter weather pushing further north across northern ireland and northwards into scotland. and again, it's going to be cold enough for some sleet and snow over the hills. for england and wales, there may be some sunshine at times, but rain is never too far away, and it could be on the heavy side. another mild day, though, across more southern parts of england and wales —
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welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm david willis. the headlines — brazil declares three days of national mourning following the death of pele, the footballer many consider the greatest player of all time. he won three world cups for brazil — a unique feat — and scored over 1,000 goals during his career. we'll look at the legacy of the man who gave the world �*the beautiful game�* and did more than anyone to shape modern football. also ahead — israel's new government takes power with ultra—0rthodox and nationalist parties shaping the coalition. countries around the world start to impose covid tests on arrivals from china as cases surge across the country.
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