this is bbc news. we will have headlines and the news stories for you at the top of the hours straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. in russia, voicing opposition to putin's war in ukraine is a crime. it can mean years injail. imagine, then, the resolve of a russian opposition activist who returned to his homeland after the ukraine invasion in order to speak out against the putin regime from within. not only that, vladimir kara—murza had already survived two apparent

poisonings inside russia. he is now languishing in a russian prison. his wife, evgenia kara—murza, is my guest today. has putin's repression effectively neutralised meaningful opposition? evgenia kara—murza in washington, dc, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for having me here. it's a pleasure to have you on the show, and i must begin by asking you about the condition of your husband, vladimir. he's been imprisoned in russia since last april.

what can you tell me about his current condition? he's still being held at moscow's fifth pre—trial detention centre, where he awaits trial for three criminal cases that have been initiated against him since april. he's being kept at the most secure part of that pre—trial detention centre. there are three locks on his door, including on the feeding slot, there are bars and barbed wire on his window. he's always accompanied by a number of guards wherever he goes to... i mean, to the courtroom and back — guards with dogs. so he's being held as the most dangerous criminal you can imagine. and at that part of the pre—trial detention centre where he's being held, he's being held together with murderers, smugglers and, you know, dangerous criminals. so he is seen and portrayed by

the government as one of them. as i understand it, thus far, he's only actually been convicted of one offence, one crime, which was disobeying police orders. but he now faces a much, much more serious charge of treason, which, if he is convicted, could carry with it a sentence of substantially more than 20 years. what is his mind—set right now? charges against him have been piling up for months, as you rightly pointed out. it all began with 15 days, and then the first charge was brought against him for opposing — publicly opposing the war in ukraine. then the second charge was brought against him during the summer months for cooperating with, as the government calls it, an undesirable organisation and for organising an event in support of political

prisoners in moscow in october of 2021. and the last charge came around the time when he was awarded the vaclav havel human rights prize. the third charge of high treason was brought against him based on three public speeches that he made at nato, at the us congress and at the norwegian helsinki committee, talking about mass repression in russia, talking about the number of political prisoners and the illegitimate character of the so—called referendum that allowed vladimir putin make himself into a tsar, basically. vladimir�*s mind—set — well, he's a fighter — he's a fighter, and all those charges against him will not break him. it is impossible... you know, the russian government tried to kill him twice for his tireless advocacy for the introduction of personal, targeted sanctions

against thieves and murderers of the regime, the magnitsky sanctions. for that, the current russian authorities see him as their personal enemy, and they tried to kill him twice. so imprisonment�*s not going to break him. i'm going to stop you there cos some people watching and listening will not be aware of some of the background. you say the russian government has tried to kill him twice and, of course, that is related to two terrible experiences he had of suffering what appeared to the outside world to be poisonings, and he came very close to death, first in 2015, then in 2017, though, it has to be said there's no absolute and specific evidence that the russian state was behind either of those incidents. there is no proof, as i understand it, and read the evidence today. but, nonetheless, you have always said you believe the russian state was behind it. so that begs — raises the question — why on earth did vladimir return to russia from the united states after the invasion of ukraine?

well, the russian authorities deny any involvement in the poisoning of alexei navalny as well. so the fact that the russian authorities deny something like that does not mean that it didn't happen. there was an independent investigation carried out by bellingcat, the insider and der spiegel, who identified those fsb officers, and that was the same team of assassins that trailed alexei navalny. these fsb officers followed my husband across russia on multiple — multiple trips, and they were there just before he developed those very weird symptoms, when he collapsed and all his major organs basically stopped working. so we do believe that this was a poisoning, and the fact that the russian authorities deny that does not mean that it wasn't. and, well, why vladimir returned — because he believes himself.

he's always identified himself as a russian politician. and to him, it is very important to be there on the forefront of this struggle, of the fight against vladimir putin and his regime personally, and to share the same risks and the same challenges faced by russians back home. this is why. .. it's not that he decided to return. it was not a choice. he just refused to never leave his country, his home, indefinitely. it was his choice to be there to continue the fight. but you and he — if i may, you and he must have discussed this at great length. after all, you know, you have three children living with you in the united states. he was in the us before deciding to return last spring. did you — both of you acknowledge to each other, when he made that decision to go back, to play a role again in russia — did you both acknowledge that almost certainly, given the experience of navalny and others, he would end up

in prison very quickly? well, i'd say that the discussion was not about imprisonment. as i said, in 2015 and 2017, my husband was poisoned. and both times, the doctors gave him a 5% chance of survival. he was very lucky to survive, and he relearned how to walk and talk and, you know, carry out the simplest of tasks. and then he continued his work because he believes it to be more important, bigger than himself, if you want. and i've always known who i am married to. i've lived with him for almost 20 years, and i deeply admire and respect my husband for his steadfastness in his fight, for his principled stand, and for his refusal to back down, refusal to be intimidated no matter what. i deeply respect and admire him for that, and i'm going to fight for him for as long

as i stand. that is a powerful sentiment. i just wonder whether you've had any opportunity to talk to him in recent months and whether there's any part of him sitting in that detention centre right now under the conditions you've described, that sort of regrets his determination to go back. he definitely does not regret his determination to be in russia and to fight the regime, because to him silence means complicity. and that he would never do it. it's something that my husband is incapable of. he is, of course, concerned about, you know — funny — he is the one in prison, he is the one facing up to 2a years for treason, as the government calls his public protest against what's happening.

but he's concerned about me and the kids, and that is also very much my husband. i'm a grown—up girl. i can handle a lot. and i've proven it over the years that i can. are you able...? and i willjust continue fighting with my husband. are you able to talk to him? have you talked to him in recent months? i haven't talked or seen him since april. that must be very hard. and neither, actually, nor have the kids. and recently, just in december, he received an official ban on conversations with his children because for months he's been trying to get permission to talk to his kids. and finally, the official response from the authorities came and it was a negative one. so the official statement said

that conversations with our children could undermine the process, the legal process in his criminal case. we have been unable to understand how it could undermine the legal process, but that was the response of the authorities. and that is just psychological pressure that they use against protesters, against activists, againstjust regular people who go out in the streets. they try to break them. and if they cannot do it with physical methods by using torture and violence or punitive psychiatry, they apply psychological methods like this, trying to disconnect a person from his family, trying to deprive him of any right to talk to his loved ones, see them, or receive any news. what the putin regime also does when it goes on the offensive against opponents and critics,

it accuses them of being puppets and tools of the west. and in your case, in vladimir�*s case, they point to monies they claim that have been received by vladimir. $30,000 a month, they claim, that comes to vladimir�*s organisation from nato member states. the implication clearly that that he has become some sort of tool, front, puppet for western interests who want to bring down russia. do you in any way think that sort of messaging from the kremlin has an impact upon the russian people and the way they see opposition activists like vladimir? well, this has been a method that the russian authorities have been using for many, many years. not only have they created this image of some external enemy for the russian population,

but there is also the fifth column, of course — those people that are represented by the authorities as traitors, as foreign agents. so basically, the idea behind is that anyone who protests against what the regime is doing, anyone who opposes the policies of the current regime, must be a traitor or must be paid by someone else to do that. otherwise, a person would not express any protest because what is there to protest against? so, in... this is a very common practice. over 170, i believe, organisations and people have been declared foreign agents since february and there have been a number before that. 22 organisations and people have been declared by russian authorities undesirables and ten organisations as extremists.

so this is what the regime is doing, to portray these people as traitors. and vladimir himself was declared a foreign agent in april. at the same time, when he was declared a prisoner of conscience by amnesty international. erm, again in september, as i already mentioned, he was awarded the human rights, the vaclav havel human rights prize and declared as a traitor by the russian authorities. so, these are, you know, the parallels that are happening, notjust in vladimir�*s case, but they represent very clearly what is happening in russia and what the regime is doing with those who oppose it. right. when we talk about the russian population, there is around 25% of the population that have voiced their protests against the war in ukraine and against the regime's policies used against

the russian population as well. because we need to understand that vladimir putin is leading two wars at the same time, against ukraine and against russia. and there is also belarus. that's very much involved as well, because the number of political prisoners in belarus is growing just as quickly as it does in russia. but if i may, if i may, evgenia, you raised a very interesting point about what is going on inside russia. and i'm very mindful that when vladimir went back, you know, in the six weeks, two months after the invasion of ukraine, he said it would be, to use his word, cowardly, not to be side by side with those brave russians who were protesting the war. and at the time, it is true that there were thousands of russians in different towns and cities who were prepared to go to the streets and voice their opposition. but we, frankly, see very little of that today. and i'm just wondering

whether you, as an activist yourself, who fights for democracy in russia and whether vladimir too, whether actually you are deeply disappointed with what has happened inside russia since this invasion and the failure to see consistent street opposition, public protest, to what the putin government is doing? well, i would say to this that there is consistent streak of opposition in russia. since february, almost 20,000 people have been arbitrarily detained for protesting against the war. and the number of political prisoners in russia, according to memorial, is today 513 people that are persecuted for their political views and religious beliefs. and i would say that those numbers are big and they are showing that there is opposition. there's no doubt most of those arrested, indeed, roughly three quarters

were arrested in the first few weeks of the war. as i say, things appear to have changed. and there are certainly voices in ukraine, including voices i have spoken to recently, like the ukrainian rights activist 0leksandra matviichuk, who have expressed their disappointment with what they see in civil society in russia, and who say we can'tjust dismiss this as putin's war, that there is something problematic about the wider russian reaction to this war. would you accept that? when we talk about russia, we are not talking about a free, democratic society, right? how do you determine, how do you understand why the majority of the population is silent, in the absence of free media, in the absence of free speech, in the absence of free. . .freedom of association, freedom of assembly, free and fair

elections, and all other fundamental freedoms that have been taken away from the population. how do you say why this majority of the population is silent? is it because they are indifferent, they don't really care? or is it because they are scared, because they see what's happening to those who do find the courage to protest? i cannotjudge because i know that the results of those opinion polls that are offered to the west, again, by propaganda, and that show the 80—something percent of support for putin's war in ukraine, those are opinion polls conducted in a near—totalitarian state by state—controlled pollsters. and i do not believe that the results of such pollsters can be trustworthy. i know that there is a countless number of smaller and bigger organisations that

continue working both inside the country and outside of the country, trying to encourage protest, offering support to those who do protest and end up in prisons or in psychiatric hospitals. there are organisations like memorial or 0vd—info or mediazona or others, who raise awareness about mass political persecution in russia and about the methods used by the regime against protesters. right. and i believe that those are the things that show that, yes, there are no mass protests, it's true. and i believe that those are the things that show that, yes, there are no mass protests, it's true. whether i would like to see them in the streets, of course i would. i would love to see millions in the streets. and i hope that those people are just waiting to see an opportunity for a change. right. now, in the meantime... erm. in the meantime, evgenia,

much of your work is focused, of necessity, outside of russia, particularly in the united states, where you've had a whole series of meetings with congressmen and women, you've been in europe, you've talked to uk ministers, ministers in other western governments, trying to get them to do even more when it comes to the sanctions regime, the isolation, particularly the economic isolation of russia. i'm just wondering, for you, as we enter 2023, whether you are again perhaps a little disappointed that international sanctions haven't had more effect? maybe they're not going to be the, the very influential factor that you want them to be on putin. i believe that sanctions can be extremely powerful, both economic sanctions that would cripple russia's economy and make it costly for the regime to continue warmongering and personal magnitsky sanctions that are important, because not only

they allow western democracies to bring to responsibility, to bring to accountability those specific people implicated in gross human rights violations, but they also send a message of solidarity with those who oppose the regime by saying, by showing that the democratic community, the global democratic community, does not equate the regime in russia with the entire russian people. right. and i believe that it is also, that would be an extremely powerful instrument to encourage protests in russia, by showing solidarity with those who do protest. butjust to be clear, then — your message is that you believe ukraine must win this war, russia must be crippled by international sanctions, and then what? putin must be removed from power. but, but given that everything we've said about the, the weakness, if you like, of russian civil society, what do you believe would happen if all of that came to pass?

surely the likelihood is that what comes next in russia might be even worse. i don't believe that it can be much worse than what we're already seeing in russia. and when we talk about russian society, this society is not healthy, absolutely. i agree with that. the last independent tv channel in russia, readily available to the majority of the population, was closed down by the regime in 2003. that's 19 years of propaganda, 19 years of hearing the exact same message over and over and over again. "we're surrounded by enemies." "russia is this great empire that has to stand up to these enemies "and fight for its survival." "everyone out there wants to see russia on its knees and wants "to see russia's demise." we are also talking about a society that has not had access to free and independent elections since 2003 as well, because, according to international organisations, the last free but not fair election took place in russia in 2003.

since then, all the elections have been, have been stolen. at the end of those two decades, we're seeing what we're seeing. an extremely atomised, depoliticised society that believes that the only way to survive this is to keep quiet and somehow, yeah, somehow fight for survival. so, i have to... sadly, we're almost out of time, evgenia. i have to end because i'm so mindful that this is very personal and very difficult for you. i have to end with just a personal thought. you've described the difficulties that you and vladimir have confronted. vladimir is now in prison, faces the possibility of a very long prison sentence. where's the hope? the hope is, the hope is in the fact that everyone has finally realised or was forced to stop closing their eyes to who mr putin truly is. and now we understand that we're basically in the same world, because ukrainians are obviously not fighting forjust their land. they're fighting for democracy.

they're fighting this global fight of the good against the evil. and we need to do everything in our power to help them. and we need to... everyone who has an opportunity to act, like i believe i do right now, anyone who is able to help in any way has to stand up and do something. and that is my hope, that if we work together to bring down the regime, it will collapse, sooner or later. and evgenia kara—murza, i thank you so much forjoining me on hardtalk. we have to end there. thank you. thank you very much.

hello again. there wasn't that much in the way of rain around yesterday but despite that, there was actually still 2a flood warnings in force, most of them in southern england. i think that is a sign that the ground remains pretty saturated. in the atlantic, things are looking quite busy. we've got an area of cloud that's going to be bringing low pressure to the northwest of the british isles and some wet and windy weather on the way from that. then near canada, this area of cloud is going to be bringing another belt of heavy rain in friday night and into saturday, and they could bring some area of localised flooding, i think. for the time being, a mostly dry picture. the brisk winds we had during the day on wednesday are lightening all the while, and those temperatures staying on the mild side for most, eight to ten degrees, even an 11 across england and wales, a few patches of frost possible in well—sheltered areas in north scotland. tomorrow, the best chance at seeing the sunshine will be in the morning across the north—eastern areas where it should be

a fine start to the day. the cloud will thicken up pretty quickly and we'll see some rain moving in across northern ireland and particularly scotland where it will be quite windy as the day goes by. the wind still coming in from a south—westerly direction, hence the double—figure temperatures that many of us will have. highs again could hit 13 or even 1a degrees, that's around six or seven degrees above average for this stage of january. beyond that, thursday night, the low pressure winds up and we start to get a zone of strong winds affecting the northwest of the uk. gales, yes, but there probably will be some severe gales around the far north—west, a band of rain sweeps across the country with blustery showers continuing to feed in close to that low pressure centre then will be to the north of scotland. here on friday, it would be quite blustery with further showers and lengthy spells of rain in scotland but otherwise, friday is a decent day but for most of the country, it's bright with a bit more the way of sunshine. turning a bit cloudy northern ireland through the course of the afternoon. still relatively mild, temperatures 11 and 12

across southern portions of the uk. this band of rain going through friday and into saturday could bring some area of localised surface water flooding, the rain looks heavy but what follows is a mixture of plenty of heavy showers, quite blustery conditions, it is going to be windy through the weekend, and some of those showers could merge together to give some lengthier spells of rain. temperatures edging down just a degree or two. it is still on the mild side but pretty wet at times too.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: if at first you don't succeed... the hunt goes on for a new speaker of the us house of representatives. the abandoned city — we have a special report from bakhmut in eastern ukraine here fierce fighting has forced people to flee. pretty much every second year the sound of artillery fire. you can tell every minute that this is a city that is being intensely fought over. the european union is now recommending travel controls on visitors from china where covid infections have exploded. and feeling the impact of climate change — why countries in east asia and the pacific region

are among the worst affected.