this is bbc news. we will have headlines and the news stories for you at the top of the hours straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. you don't need to be a clairvoyant to see that 2023 will bring extraordinary turbulence to pakistan. rampant inflation and energy crisis, soaring national debt — these are challenges that would test the strongest of governments but in pakistan, the ruling coalition is weak and imran khan's pti opposition party is doing all in its power to bring it down. my guest is senior pti official fawad chaudhry. could political opportunism be the undoing of pakistan?

fawad chaudhry in lahore, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. mr chaudhry, if ever there were a time in pakistan for politicians to put their partisan interests and differences aside and pull together for the good of the nation, it would be now, with your country facing a massive economic crisis. are you in the pti prepared to do that? yeah, we are all we all prepared to do that. but you will appreciate we are not a communist country.

we are not a one party system that prevailing in pakistan. we are a democracy. and in democracy parties, do have their own programmes. but in democracy, parties do have their differences and it's same as in pakistan. so we have our programme and as when we were in the government and when imran khan was removed unconstitutionally through using illegal means, pakistan culminated into a huge political chaos and economic growth. this economic chaos that you referred to is actually the result of that political chaos that was created unnecessarily in pakistan by removing imran khan. and now people of pakistan are standing on the one side and the present ruling elite that we call imported government is standing on the other side. so that's the primary problem in pakistan. the problem is that right now your country needs very urgently to get new sources

of funding, not least from the imf. otherwise, you frankly, in pakistan, could run out of money. your foreign currency reserves are very close to running out. in that context, is it responsible for you, you personally in recent days to call for new massive nationwide street protests against the current government? well, stephen, we will appreciate when the no confidence move was presented in the house, our reserves were 21, actually $16 billion. at one point it was actually $21 billion. so with the with the political crisis that has been created that was created in pakistan, the foreign reserves started declining and now it's actually less than $6 billion. primarily, this all happened because of the political uncertainty that has been created in pakistan. and, you know, the present, the pdm government, as we obviously most of the pakistanis would call

it, an imported government has actually miserably failed to create certainty about their policies. so they have no plan, they have no economic plan, they have no administrative plan. economy is obviously going down. terrorism is getting back into pakistan. and we frankly have no idea that we will rule pakistan after three months orfive months. and as all the surveys points out, that this government is one of the most unpopular government in pakistan. so you will appreciate that without political stability, how can you even imagine to have economic stability? isn't there a little bit of humility in order from you and your colleagues in the pti? after all, the devaluation of the rupee, soaring inflation, soaring national debt, these are all economic problems which you left as your legacy after being in government since 2018 until april 2022.

well, that's not, that's not correct. actually, when we took over, pakistan was in shambles. and when we left pakistan, as per the economic survey of pakistan released by this government, were progressing, our economy was at six... it was growing at the rate of 6%, 5.57%, and then this year, 6%. and that despite corona. the way pakistan fought corona is actually is actually praised by even bbc and even by all independent publications. the way we handle the economy in the corona times, despite all the challenges that imran khan government was facing, was remarkable and we created 5.5 million jobs. a large scale manufacturing actually was 10% of what was going. it's—it's—it�*s important to differentiate between rhetoric and facts. i mean, a simple fact

is that the national debt when you came into power was something around $116 billion. by the time you left office, it was something over $230 billion. and debt is at the heart of pakistan's problem. so as sherry rehman, a minister in the current government, said, she said there should be warrants issued against the pti leadership for destroying the country's economy, and many pakistanis would agree. well, frankly, i don't. no—one cares what she says. but, frankly, the debt the debt that we obtained was to return the debt that they obtained. so this is a vicious circle that actually sharif and zardari government placed pakistan in, and that's the that's the problem. so we had to have, you know, we have to get the debt to basically return the short—term debts. and now actually we restructured debt. but after this turmoil, everything has literally gone out of the window. so they don't know what to do. we were doing really well, as far as economy as well.

yeah, i don't think the figures really bear that out mr chaudhry. but it's about promises made and promises not kept, isn't it? you say that you believe this government will be gone, you say within months, you think. but the truth is, many pakistanis think back to what promises were made by your government when you came to power, and they look at whether you actually kept them. and they would argue, i think, many that you didn't. for example, you said you were going to root out corruption in pakistan. the truth, again, the fact is that by the time you left office, pakistan had fallen down the internationally recognised corruption perception index by 20 places. you were getting more corrupt as a nation, not less under imran khan. well, frankly, imran khan gave pakistan probably one of the one of the cleanest government of 75 years. not a single corruption scandal can be attributed to the cabinet or to imran

khan. so, and on a political stage, the corruption really gone down. primarily it was the judicial or you can say the rule of law, the department that deals with the rule of law. for example, judiciary, that has actually contributed in that index. but not on the political side. 0n the political side, imran khan gave one of the cleanest government of 75 years. see, that might hold more water as an argument if imran khan himself and indeed you and other officials from the pti weren't now facing serious legal challenges as a result of things you've done and said in the recent past, in particular things about the machinery of law enforcement, judiciary, and electoral competence in your country. you personally are now facing charges, aren't you? i am facing blasphemy charges also. i am facing a terrorism charges also. and imran khan is facing around 28 criminal cases, all manipulated.

this is the worst months, as far as human rights are concerned. our people, our leadership, everyone has been implicated in forged, in fake cases. evidence is forged and the kind of cases are actually funny. for example, i am facing a blasphemy case where incident happened in madina where where this prime minister and his team was actually heckled by pakistanis and they came back and they registered criminal blasphemy case against us. hang on, hang on. is it funny that the election commission of pakistan charges imran khan with failing to properly report to the tax authorities dozens and dozens of gifts, some of them worth a lot of money that he received as prime minister? is that funny? well, it is funny because the as you know, this election commissioner, we call it like a subsidiary

of pml—n and all of his decisions have actually been literally all of his decisions are reversed by the courts when those decisions are challenged in the court. so all of... this decision would also be reversed, because this decision of him is also a matter of fighting. and, you know, the gifts imran khan received were declared. this is part of his tax return, this is part of pti. whatever has been shown as a pti interest that has also been declared. so there is nothing which is undeclared and unlawful. so i believe that this decision of election commission will also be reversed. it seems that the pti, having lost the confidence of parliament in april 2022, having been forced out of office, is now turning its ire on many different branches of the pakistani government. you know, i'm looking at thejudiciary, i'm looking at the election commission. you say that they are deeply biased and unfair against you. seems you've also turned

against the pakistani military, is that right? no, we are not. we have not turned against anyone. we have respect for institutions. we want a working relationship. but you will appreciate in pakistan, the unelected, especially military and judiciary has exercised powers beyond constitution, and this is not new... so, to be clear about this word respect, then you, don't you? respect key institutions. so, to be clear about this word respect then you don't respect key institutions. i mean, it's clear imran khan has already had to apologise, formally apologise to the court for some of the words he used in the past about the judiciary. so it's clear there is a lack of respect from the pti, which now i would argue, seems to run all the way through to the military itself, which of course you used to support because they helped you come to power. they were supportive of you back in 2018.

but now it seems your relationship with the military has completely soured. no. first, i don't agree with you that military help pti to come to power. it was the 22 years that took pti to come to power, and i don't think any military or any institution can support you for that long. so we came into power but yes, we were ousted by a conspiracy through in which some of the army generals were involved. there is no doubt about that. and establishment actually played a very active role in the ousting of imran khan. and there were issues and obviously one issue was that the the allied parties and members were actually taken to senate house and they were their loyalties were bought. so imran khan was... i'm going to stop you there because what you're saying is inflammatory and, frankly, i'm wondering whether you can back it with any evidence at all. i'm looking at a quote given by isi chief, new chief, general nadeem anjum in october 2020 to where he was alongside the military spokesman, general iftikhar.

and they both said, and i'm going to be clear about this, that imran khan had sought the help of the military in the spring of 2022 to subvert constitutional processes when he was facing that vote of parliamentary no confidence. the army alleges that imran khan turned to them and asked military chiefs to help him subvert the constitution. well, this can be, you can say them versus us because our views are totally different. we never said that. we only we only said let's—let the pakistan, let not a stable government go like this. and, you know, the way the many of our allies like the lt party. so everyone knows that establishment control their their positions the way they are behaving, they are likely, it's very much clear that they are following instructions. so that should not be done

and politics should be should be left on the politicians. so that is something very different from asking... are you telling me that these military chiefs that i am quoting to you, they are out and out liars? is that your contention? well, the last army chief has obviously was as as as the imran khan has said many times, was actively involved in sending our government home. and, unfortunately, this is what the fact is. but i'm not talking just about general bajwa, i'm talking about the current military leadership who have backed general bajwa's claim that you in the pti were asking the army to do unconstitutional things. are you saying that the current military leadership, too, as well as general bajwa, are lying? well, the current leadership has just resumed the office and we are actually hoping that there will be change in the policy. but yes, the previous army chief was not—was not—was not

talking the truth when he said that we are asking for the help, we were only asking for the neutrality of the army, which was not there, which was obviously that the pakistani establishment was helping this present imported government to change the regime. back in april of 2022, imran khan claimed that his removal was the result of a plot that originated in the united states, that he was threatened by the us government, and the us government engineered his removal. he said he had proof, but as far as i can see, he has never produced any persuasive or compelling evidence whatsoever. that's not true again. we actually presented the cipher sent by pakistani ambassador after his meeting with donald lew, the assistant secretary of state of united states of america, in which he says that

a no confidence move is coming and relationship with the united states with pakistan depends on the success or failure of that. ..of that move. so that that document was presented. and then we wrote to president of pakistan forjudicial inquiry into that. and we also demanded a judicial inquiry into that conspiracy. but, unfortunately, our request in that regard was never in. we now warned that there should be a there should be a thorough inquiry into that allegation, but that is obviously with the courts. see, i'm now very confused because, first of all, that document you refer to, which was a cable from the us ambassador in pakistan back home to washington, that didn't represent any kind of proof of the plot that you were talking about. so that was not evidence. but also i'm confused because imran khan seems to have changed his mind. giving an interview, financial times interview not

long ago, imran khan said, you know what, i want to lead a pakistan that has good relations with everyone, especially the us. he said he wanted a dignified relationship with the us, so it seems he's changed his view of the united states. he used to say that they were launching a coup against him and now he says he wants a good relationship with them. no, we want we never said we want to get into war with us, we always wanted, we want a good relationship with the united states and, you know, the kind of international position that usa is as as a superpower. no one, no no political party in pakistan would no one, no no political party in pakistan would like to have a confrontational relationship with us. likewise, we do not expect us or for that matter, any other country to dictate to us that who will govern pakistan. that is a right that belongs to the people of pakistan and not to the people of usa or uk or for that matter, any other country. so we want a dignified relationship.

but mr chaudhry, do you not see that it makes no sense at all to, on the one hand, still accuse the us of launching a de facto conspiracy plot to remove your party from office, also to refer to the us as a master who seeks to use pakistan as a slave, also, as imran khan once did, to refer to 0sama bin laden as a martyr — to do all of those things, and then in the very same breath say that actually you want a dignified, positive relationship with the united states? the two things do not go together. that's not correct. number one, imran khan never said that 0sama bin laden is a martyr. there was, yes, in one speech, this was just a slip of the tongue. and it was clarified on the same very hour by i don't know why, how can you refer that statement of him as his position? this is not his position, number one.

number two, we had very good relationship with the united states of america. when we came to power, actually, there was no relationship of pakistan, the united states and we developed that. and let me again remind you that when the taliban took over afghanistan, pakistan helped evacuation of 300,000 western that western diplomats, the soldiers and also the journalists. that includes bbc and new york times and reuters and so many others from afghanistan. and, actually, we help our... and we use our relationship and influence with the taliban to for the evacuation of these people. this is what pakistan has delivered. and even now, you know, the one incident we cannot say that will affect our relationship that much that we will never be able to have good relationship. the past is past. we want to have a good relationship. and i hope that united states also wants a good relationship with the pakistan, the most popular party. there's no two opinions about that. yeah, the past is past,

you say but of course, the past has legacies. 0ne legacy of pti policy is perhaps coming home to roost in afghanistan. you welcomed the taliban back. imran khan seemed to think it was positive that the taliban were back in power in kabul. but now we see since the taliban took over that your own pakistani taliban has revived its military operations on pakistani territory, and there is little doubt that it has been using afghan territory as a means of building up its military strength. do you now regret your policy toward the taliban, both in afghanistan and your failure to root them out in pakistan? well, that's not correct, actually. unfortunately, this is yet another big failure of the present government that they have not been able to carry on the policy, the imran khan's policy vis a vis afghanistan. we were holding continuous

meetings, we were holding continuous negotiations with the new authorities in kabul and we were actually close to solve this issue. but, unfortunately, since this government took over, they have no idea what's going on in afghanistan, what is the thinking of the new leadership. and, unfortunately, they have ruined all our efforts to stabilize our relationship with kabul. we wanted a kind of exposure of taliban to the international community. there is a war, there is two decades war inflicted on them. obviously, there are problems. obviously, the afghan society right now and the afghan government is not a normal not a normal country any more. and we need to help them to rebuild as a nation. and we were trying to bring these authorities close to us. as i said, we helped the evacuation of 300,000 westerners from. ..citizens of western countries from afghanistan.

and we were trying to help stabilize this relationship. but this government has actually gone back on everything and now it's totally haywire. no one knows what's going on on that border. we've talked about economic problems and challenges facing pakistan, we talked about the security challenge with the pakistani taliban once again launching offensives on pakistani territory. the situation in your country is grave. is imran khan prepared to do pretty much anything to bring the current government down before the next elections which are due in november of 2023? is he going to bring millions of people back onto the streets? is he prepared to see chaos on the streets of pakistan over the next few months? well, frankly, we can wait for elections. we have no problem. but this government is not ready to hold elections. they are not ready to hold elections, even local government elections, even in a city like islamabad, they are not ready to do that because they know that whenever

they will face people, they will be ousted. their people are angry on them. they cannot go even out in the market to eat food because they are heckled and people makejokes on them. so they are totally unable to actually move around. and they are they move in the security. they have no access to the to the common man. they have no access to the to the common man. elections is not the need of pti right now. election is the need of pakistan right now. how will pakistan, as the economic crisis that you mentioned in your earlier part with this kind of situation, how will we move from here till eight, nine months from here to there? so how we are going to manage all these months is a problem. so that's why we are asking that election should be held as early as possible so we can have a responsible government, a stable government who can then look at issues and try

to solve them. do you fear for the stability of pakistan right now? well, looking at the performance of this government, anyone would fear about the stability of pakistan. but we are a resilient nation. we have fought hard times before, and i'm sure we can fight it again. the only thing is that how can we bring political stability to pakistan? and there must be a government that is stable enough to look at the issues and try to resolve these issues. fawad chaudhry, thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk, thank you. hello there. the weather's going to calm down a bit on friday, but we've got more wet and windy weather to come this weekend. another area of low pressure,

weather fronts to eventually push in from the west. this weather front has brought some heavy rain and gusty winds. that area of low pressure is where we've got the strongest of the winds in scotland. even first thing in the morning, it's very windy through the central belt of scotland, but the strongest winds will be in northern parts of the country, gusting 60 or 70 miles an hour. and we've also got a lot of showers coming into scotland. that band of rain sweeping away from england and wales will be followed by clear skies and temperatures early in the morning, 6—7 degrees. lots of showers, though, to begin with in scotland, very windy start, but the winds do moderate. the showers become fewer and we'll see some sunshine. other parts of the uk seeing some sunshine, especially in the morning, but tending to cloud over a bit more in western areas in the afternoon. a little bit of rain coming into the south—west of england and south wales as well. a breezy day, a mild day, temperatures 9—12 degrees on friday afternoon. but there is this band of rain here coming into western areas during the evening. itjust gets wetter and maybe windier again during the evening. and that band of rain pushes its way eastwards overnight. strong southerly winds are likely.

it's going to be a very mild night, of course, with that cloud and rain. temperatures in southern parts of the uk, perhaps no lower than 11 degrees. but we start the weekend with some rain. it's going to be a very unsettled weekend. quite windy as well. blustery winds to come, bringing some rain or some showers as well. and we've got that rain to start with, then, across much of scotland, england and wales. it's going to shuffle its way eastwards, it's going to hang around into the morning, perhaps into the afternoon across east anglia and the south—east. following that, the winds pick up again around these western coasts. we're going to find lots of showers feeding in. some of those will be heavy. some sunshine in between the showers and temperatures still on the mild side, 8—11 degrees. second half of the weekend, we're dominated, really, by this low pressure. it's going to hang around for a while. it's approaching the north—west of scotland. it will be very windy here saturday night into sunday morning, and around that area of low pressure, we've got these strong and blustery winds. that's going to feed in some sunshine, but we're also going to find quite a few showers. some of those could be heavy

and thundery and it's just about cold enough for a little bit of snow over the tops of the mountains in scotland. temperatures will be a shade lower on sunday, around 7—9 celsius.