rescuers in nepal have called off the search for any survivors of sunday's plane crash. the pilot allegedly did not report any problems when coming in to land. 72 people were onboard the yeti airlines flight. all are believed to have been killed. a former commander in the russian paramilitary organisation, wagner, has claimed asylum in norway, after deserting the mercenary group. andrey medvedev allegedly fled after witnessing war crimes in ukraine. it's thought to be the first time a member of the group has defected to the west. the duke and duchess of sussex have rebuffed jeremy clarkson�*s written apology over a column for the sun newspaper, in which he said

he "hated" meghan. in a statement, harry and meghan said the tv presenter�*s comments were not an isolated incident. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, from geneva. i'm stephen sackur. this place is home to the world trade organization, the institution whose purpose is to maximise free and fair international trade, on the assumption that globalisation is good. so what happens when many governments and people around the world question that premise? well, my guest today is the director general of the wto, ngozi okonjo—iweala. will rising geopolitical tensions lead to the weaponisation of trade?

ngozi okonjo—iweala, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. now, you are one of the world's key advocates of ever freer trade, more globalisation. what's it like to be doing your job when the political tide across the world is running against you? the wto's purpose, the world trade organization, is... its purpose is to enhance living standards, to help create employment and to support sustainable development. there could be nothing more worthy than that. so, it's supposed to

deliver for people. and that's what i want people to know about it, therefore... nobody could quarrel with those objectives and that sentiment, but the truth is you are a membership organisation with 160—plus members. you have, clearly, key members, like the united states and china, and you can only work if there is an element of trust, of co—operation, of a desire for common objectives, and look around the world today, that doesn't exist. well, you're absolutely right that the geopolitical tensions are there and getting worse, and we have to manage them. and i'll come back to this point, because this is one organisation where we have actually successfully tried to manage these tensions, even though the trust, as you say, is lacking or does not exist. but let me say something. you talked about globalisation and it is true that many people think that it's over

for globalisation, well, let's say that perhaps globalisation as we knew it before, that brand of globalisation may be over, but that does not mean that a new type of globalisation, which i shall call re—globalisation, cannot exist and deliver. we should remember that the globalisation we had before brought more than 1 billion people out of poverty and we can't throw the baby with the bathwater. so, we should look at what were the good aspects of that, what was, what were the bad? i know people were left behind. we need now the type of globalisation that will bring those who were not included. poor, poorer countries should be brought in and poor people within rich countries. globalisation, or re—globalisation, should serve people. the fact is what we see happening is the emergence of rival economic and trading blocs, one largely made up of the rich, democratic countries, led by the

united states, another representing those powers like russia, china and some other nations who clearly see the united states—led bloc as a rival. i acknowledge to you that geopolitical tensions are there, we cannot deny that, and may be getting worse. but that undermines what this place, the wto, is all about. i don't think so. let me put it this way, that when you have those tensions, it's precisely having multilateralism, multilateral organisations like the wto, that's what you need. why do you need it? because there are some problems in the world that you cannot solve by breaking into blocs. you have global common goods. you have issues like climate change. you cannot solve them when you fragment. pandemic, you cannot solve it. you can see it, it's evident. and let me say this... but the pandemic surely taught

us that the complex trading relationships that the wto has helped build over the last few decades, they break down, whether it's because of a pandemic and everything that came with it in terms of restrictions on travel and trade, or whether it be because of conflict and war. whatever the cause, the fact is that that mutual distrust is now a reality. well, let me let me disagree with you slightly, stephen. you say they break down. there's absolutely no doubt that we saw that there are vulnerabilities in the way our global supply chains are built, and the pandemic and the war in ukraine pointed out those vulnerabilities. there's too much concentration of manufacturing of certain products in parts of the world. so, we do need to look at that and say, "how do we build resilience?" but i want to tell you this. trade helped solve the problem in the pandemic. if it was not for trade, you wouldn't have been able to get face masks, masks,

pharmaceuticals from one part of the world where they were being made to another where they were being... where they were needed. so you cannot say that trade broke down. i'm not saying trade is dead. i'm simply saying your concept of truly global trade may well be dying. think of what the us treasury secretary janet yellen said, just a few months ago. she said that the future for the us may well be all about what she calls friend shoring. that is, building trade ties amongst trusted partners and allies, rather than, for example, relying heavily on imports from china. she called on allies of the us to work together to, quote, "establish truly resilient supply chains." now, are you a fan of friend shoring or... i'm a fan of resilient supply chains. but what we are advocating is this is a prime opportunity to use the globalisation concept to deconcentrate supply

chains and build them in countries that were not part of the global value chains before. now, when you say friend shoring, the only caution i'll say is, who is a friend? that is the point. a friend today might not be a friend tomorrow, so how do you define friend? and we've seen examples of that. and, but i want to say something else, stephen. among our members, we talked about trust. even though we have issues of trust and issues of geopolitical tension, i can tell you the wto has been the one, one of the few, if not the only organisation, where you had commitments, agreements made injune at our 12th ministerial with china, us, ukraine, russia, all around the table. people do not believe that. we actually signed legally binding agreements on sustainability. i want to talk about those, sustainability, fisheries. so, i want to give, i want to give wto members

credit for having overcome all those issues. one very important development in the last few months was a ruling coming out of the wto on the united states and its tariffs on steel and aluminium. you declared that they were illegitimate. the united states, as i understand it, has entirely ignored your ruling, simply because they say this is a case of national security trumping trade policy. what's your response? my response is as follows. every member has a right to determine what its national security is. we cannot do it for them. that ruling was made by the panel, and that is why we have this dispute settlement system. usually, when a country does not get a ruling that favours it, you know, the us is not the only member that has before made comments when they get an adverse ruling. so that does not mean

that the wto or the dispute settlement system is not functioning. i beg to differ. what it shows is that perhaps the most powerful economy in the world now feels free to entirely ignore what comes out of the wto. i'm going to quote there the us chief trade negotiator, katherine tai. when she heard of the decision from you, from the wto, she said, "this body is unelected, not accountable. "they have no right to second guess "america's national security judgment." she said the wto, quote, "is walking on very thin ice." the united states is the biggest user of the wto's dispute settlement system. they have brought the largest number of cases, 124, since the system was put in place. and they've been pleased with the rulings they got from many of them. they also have the largest number of cases brought against them, 157. so, if the place is not given some satisfaction, why are members still using it?

so, look, it is normal, it is normal that when a ruling comes, you know, it may not please the member. that does not mean that the wto or the systems, you know, don't render service and that the members don't appreciate it. they actually do. if the world didn't have the wto, it would really be problematic, because then it would be might and power. you know, there would be... trade would be a free for all. and that is why it was made in the first place. secondly, if the world fragments into separate trading blocs, we've actually done work here at the wto that shows it to be extremely costly for the world. yeah, i think your calculations were that if these rival trading blocs emerge, it could cost the world roughly 5% of global gdp. that's an extraordinary figure. the problem you've got right now is that the mechanisms that exist here at the wto to try and enforce fair trade policy across the world,

the mechanisms are paralysed, and they're paralysed chiefly because the united states has for years now refused to allow the appointment of newjudges to your appeals body. and without those judges, the appeals body cannot work. and without the appeals body, you, as the arbiter of global trade, cannot properly function. how are you going to get out of this problem? stephen, i disagree, so let me share with you what is happening. it is true that our two—tier dispute settlement system has a panel level and an appellate body. and you are right, that is the appellate body — the second tier — that is paralysed becausejudges have not been elected. however, the panel level is working and, as we speak, we have about 20 or so ongoing panel proceedings at the moment at the first tier.

so, it's not quite right that the system is not working. but i want to share with you that some countries have also decided to use an alternative system. actually, some of some members have come together to create an interim arbitration system which can handle an appeal, and some of them are using that. there are others who have also accepted the judgments. but, look, you are right. we need to reform the system. we need to restore the entire system. there's something else we need to do. but it's easy to say — how are you going to do it? i think you've said in the past... oh, i have good news. ..that, "we're going to fix this by 2024." well, we're already in 2023 and there's no sign of it being fixed.

absolutely not. stephen, let me tell you something. it's actually good news. there's been an agreement that we will fix it in 20... ..by 2024. so that's what we're going to do. and it is... i want to share with you that the united states is actually leading the working level, at the technical level, some consultations with other members to hear their views. and this is preparatory to trying to see, how do we reform? i'm impatient to get the reforms done, but is there value to your organisation? it's... everyone recognises that is why164 members... we are the only multilateral organisation so far where members came together and made agreements, up to ten agreements, some of them legally—binding, with russia, ukraine, united states, china — everyone round the table. so... we've talked a lot about the united states.

let's talk a little bit about china. in the words of the australian government, "china is increasingly testing the global "trade rules and norms by engaging in practices "that "that are utterly inconsistent with its wto commitments." there are some people around the world who think you're soft on china. are you? i would say not. that is absolutely not correct. what i would say... so, how come china hasn't opened up its services sector? hold on, let me.... how come china is still accused by many countries of dumping its products in their markets? how come china doesn't come clean on its use of forced labour and the impact that's having on its trading policies? you could do much more to get china to front up on these issues. some of the agreements and rules were made prior to the time that china became a member. china became a member in 2001 of this organisation. let's take the subsidies and countervailing measures agreement — that was made in 1995, at the time that china became...

before china became a member. now things have changed substantially. so, china... so, is it time for you, the wto, to get tougher on china? what it is time to do is for the wto members to say to themselves if they are not happy with some of the earlier agreements that were made, and the world is changing and evolving — those agreements should be re—looked at, they should be, you know, re—examined. it's not that, when you make an agreement, it's set in stone forever, because the world is changing rapidly. so, what we should be doing is saying, "how do we need "to look at these agreements? "how do they need to change to reflect "the changes in the world?" so that's what i would advocate. and, actually, there is an emerging movement now in reform of the wto. that's what the reform process is, to reform those things that are not working as well, because they were negotiated at a time when the world

was so different. all right. right. and maybe one of the new shifting priorities of the wto has to be climate change and decarbonisation, and the role that international trade maybe can play in a decarbonisation agenda. you have said, quote, "greening trade is urgent." well, it's a nice phrase, but how do you "green" trade? well, i never use nice phrases unless i mean them, stephen. and what i mean to say is that people typically think of trade as part of the problem. and, yes, to some extent it is, of course — the logistics of trade. of course, logistics, shipping... ..the way some products are... ..transportation, packaging... yes, the way some products are traded and so on. but trade is also squarely part of the solution. you cannot build a resilient world, you cannot green the world, you cannot cut carbon emissions unless you have trade.

how do you diffuse the technology that you need for greening and get it from one point to the other? what about an agreement on environmental goods and services that will enable faster adoption of the new technologies? right. but if i may say so, here is where it gets complicated. you will be well aware that joe biden�*s administration has just pushed through an inflation reduction act in the united states. now, that promises hundreds of billions of us dollars in things like tax breaks for electric vehicles, but crucially, electric vehicles that are manufactured in the united states with components that come from the us, canada and mexico. those are the vehicles that will get the tax break. now, the europeans are crying foul. they're saying that this approach is essentially another form of protectionism under the disguise of going green. they say it breaches at least nine different international trade rules. what do you say?

what we say is that those members, such as the eu, south korea, others who feel that the inflation reduction act, in their opinion, breaches rules, they have to address, have a dialogue with the united states. it's not that, each time, you have to build a case. i think we've been using the formal system too much. now, what we are encouraging then is, if this is what you feel, rather than come to the panel, have a dialogue, talk to each other, use the other provisions within the dispute settlement mechanism. but, madam director—general. .. try to find a solution, and that's what they're actually doing. the eu is talking to the us, south korea is talking to the us, and i think, through that mechanism, they can find solutions. the eu is responding with its own proposals for a quote—unquote "green tariff" on imports. they're calling it a "carbon

border adjustment mechanism". and that means that goods that are imported with a high carbon emission content are going to face significant new taxes. and in the developing world, they're saying, again, "this is just another form of protectionism "dressed up as green policy." you say that trade, greening trade, is urgent and you're going to have to decide, in the end, what comes first — your green agenda or your free trade agenda? well, the two are not opposed. so, let me just tell you... but as i've just told you, they can be. let me say that the eu's carbon border adjustment mechanism, it's not quite a response to what the us is doing with the inflation reduction act. it's a policy that they're using to try and help them get to net zero. many countries are taking different approaches. the eu is taking one approach — you mentioned it, the cbam — others are doing other approaches. the us is using regulations. if you quantify that, they all come to a price. but our problem is that the systems are too fragmented.

right now, we have 70 fragmented different systems of pricing carbon, and that is why developing countries are complaining and saying it could be... they are seeing it as protectionist, they're seeing it as too complicated. businesses from those developing countries will have a difficult time managing that. therefore, what we are advocating, and working on now is a global carbon pricing mechanism, and we're actually doing it with the imf, the world bank and the oecd. let's stick with this theme, then, of what the developing world expects and wants from you in your tenure as chief of the wto, because it is indeed significant that you are from nigeria. you said, on taking thejob, "the ordinary person "on the street in my village in nigeria needs to "know why the wto exists and what it exists for. "we have to do important and good things for them." what are you doing for them? i am from the developing world, very proud to be.

butl... in thisjob, i'm the head of a multilateral organisation, so i'm there for all members. and ourjob at the secretariat is to support all our members. that doesn't take away from what i said, that, if people in a developing country like mine, in my village, do not know what the wto is about, there's a problem. so, we need to bring people back into the wto so that when we talk about it, people will know, "oh, it's all about trade. "it's all about supporting my living standards "and enhancing the way i live." and one of the most basic things they need — particularly in many countries in the developing world, which have suffered from food price inflation because of a food supply crisis, which has been exacerbated by the russia—ukraine war — they need to know, in the most basic trade terms, how you can help them get ready access to the food supplies they need. and we're absolutely doing that.

our members came together and agreed that things are tough for developing countries and we need to be part of the solution, not the problem. so, there was an agreement, one, that there should be absolutely no export restrictions on food, humanitarian supplies, so that the world food programme can purchase, get access easily and be able to feed all those that it's feeding who are hungry around the world. secondly, they agreed in a declaration that they'll keep restrictions on food down, and we were at about 78 restrictions. it's down to 56 now. so, members are actually making the effort. you could not imagine how helpful this is to keeping world prices less volatile and making it more affordable. is it perfect? the answer is no. we want us to phase out as many restrictions as we possibly can, so it's a net contribution to making food cheaper

for the world. we're almost out of time. i have to end with this very simple question. do you ever wish you hadn't taken thisjob, given the geopolitics that you have to live with today, given the fact that multilateral institutions, from the united nations itself to the wto, are hamstrung by this mistrust, by this suspicion? it makes yourjob impossible. well, ifeel it's a privilege to do this job. so, i actuallyjump out of bed every morning, wanting to go to work. i want to end on this note. the organisation is not hamstrung. the organisation just delivered the most amazing success by having agreements such as the fisheries subsidies agreement to make our oceans and ourfisheries more sustainable so that poor people can have access, to stop illegalfishing, to stop unreported fishing. we just got this after two decades of trying to negotiate it. we got it seven months ago, injune.

so, how can you say we are hamstrung? we are practically the only organisation delivering on multilateralism. so, you cannot say that — we've had a huge success. we must build on that to correct all those areas that need to be reformed. but i'm very proud of what our members have done. and if you're looking for a place where multilateralism is actually working, in spite of tensions, which i acknowledge, it's the wto. we have to end there. but, ngozi okonjo—iweala, i thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. thank you. thank you, stephen. hello again.

i'm sure you'd agree, it's been a very bitter start to the new working week, but there have been some stunning, sunny skies with some snowy scenes around as well — that was overlooking skiddaw, in cumbria earlier on monday. but the other story we've been covering hasn't gone away either — we still have lots of flood warnings in force, the majority across stretches of the severn, the river avon, and for groundwater flooding in the south. and although we'll continue to see snow showers across northern and western areas over the next few hours, leading to icy conditions, actually with water still seeping from fields after our recent very wet spell of weather and a widespread sharp frost, temperatures minus three to minus seven widely. well, you can imagine the roads are going to turn very icy heading into tuesday morning, so could be quite dangerous actually underfoot and under—tyre first thing in the morning. and, with temperatures down as low as minus 10 in scotland, freezing cold start — further snow showers piling in through the day across northwestern areas. so, really, its northern and western areas of scotland across northern ireland,

the north—west of both england and wales will be prone to seeing further accumulations of snow. modest hills could see another 5—10 centimetres in places. and after that cold, frosty, icy start to the day, even in the sunshine — which many of us will have a lot of — well, temperatures will struggle to get much above freezing. it will feel pretty bitter. more of that to come on wednesday as well. another cold, frosty, icy start to the day. could see rather more in the way of showers just clipping the east coast of england, and some heavier showers work across northern ireland into parts of wales and south—west england — probably hear more of a mixture, a bit of rain, a bit of sleet, a bit of hill snow mixed in, and temperatures just climbing to about seven in cardiff and plymouth — so signs that temperatures are very slowly starting to tick upwards. by thursday, after a frosty and cold start again, showers will probably become more restricted to the north—east of scotland. otherwise, a lot of dry and sunny weather. but after, again, a freezing cold start to the day, temperatures climb this time to reach highs of maybe eight towards plymouth.

otherwise, about 3—6 pretty widely. if you really don't like the cold weather, well, you'll have to wait till the weekend before we get something a lot milder, as south—westerly winds return across the country. with that, there'll be a lot more in the way of cloud heading into the weekend with a bit of rain around as well. but eventually, temperatures widely will be back into double figures.

this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk, and around the world. a constitutional showdown in the uk, as british prime minister rishi sunak says he'll block the gender recognition bill, passed by the scottish parliament. britain's andy murray and italy's matteo berrettini are battling it out on centre court at the australian open in melbourne. a former commander in the russian paramilitary organisation, wagner, has claimed asylum in norway, after deserting the mercenary group. a royal rebuff from the duke and duchess of sussex forjeremy clarkson, who apologised in writing for comments he made about meghan in a newspaper column.