this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. brazilian democracy was shaken to its foundations earlier this month, but it is still standing. now president lula has to try to fix the cracks. his government must figure out whether another assault on government institutions is likely and hold those responsible for what looked like a half—baked coup attempt

to account. all of that while lula faces a mountain of economic, social and political challenges. my guest is celso amorim, former foreign minister, now lula's foreign policy advisor. is brazil becoming ungovernable? celso amorim in brasilia, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. mramorim, i believe you are talking to me from your office in the presidential palace.

just a few days ago, that building was invaded by a mob. how safe and secure do you feel right now? 0h, personally, i feel very safe now. i don't think anything will happen these days or the next days. but of course, that was a very worrying situation, to say the least. not very much unlike what happened in the capitol hill two years ago. we didn't expect, of course, that to happen, but certainly there were failures in the security apparatus. part of it was omission, part might be incompetence, but part might have been connivance. but when you came in to work today and you showed your security pass and i dare say you went through a security scanner and you probably had a chat with some of the security force personnel on the security fence,

did you trust those security force people around you? well, those i have to cross by, yes, because they have been chosen and already changed. but i think there are still other measures to be taken. i'm not a specialist on that. other people deal with that. but surely it is a preoccupation with the structure, the security structure, not only of this building, but of course, of the institutions. i mean, the building itself is a symbol, but it's really the institution. i mean, that's what i'm getting at. of course, all of the key institutions of government are guarded by security personnel. and then there's the wider issue of the military. and there are many people in brazil who think that those institutions are full of individuals who have a very deep sympathy with former presidentjair bolsonaro.

do you feel that too? well, i...there is a lot of people, no doubt, i mean, there was a lot of manipulation in these last few years in terms of co—opting some some forces, including in the armed forces, are not speaking about the institution as a whole, but many people surely not only they are in the police, they're also in other parts of all of our government structures, state structure. i think this will be certainly the object of great attention by the president himself and by people around him. but it's still something... it's a very contrasting picture because on the other hand, you could see in the inauguration and you could see also in the coming, the signing of some

of the new ministers, how the people is with us, how they are with us in general. i mean, indigenous people, people of african descent, poor people in general. and the great part of the population, also the entrepreneurs and who wanted a stable country. bolsonaro was really... ..i would always think... 0k, go on. well, as you...as you indicate, it's a complicated picture and brazil is deeply polarised, and you in your government have to decide how far you go in the quest for accountability and justice for what happened on january the 8th. so let me ask you a simple question. do you regard what happened as an attempted coup? yes. but depending on whom you are saying. i don't think... i personally don't think the military were... because we spoke about them. ..were planning a military coup, because, if they had done, they would go much further. i think that people

that were... that were, er... directly involved in these demonstrations and the acts of terrorism — you can call it terrorism — again, i would say not very different... from what happened in this respect. ..not very different from what happened two years ago in the united states. these people were probably counting on something like that, which in the end didn't occur. so there was too much tolerance, which was wrong. there was incompetence, i would think, in terms of, you know, that the chief of security of our federal district — the equivalent of the department of, er... the district of columbia in the united states — is now being detained and will face accusations, possibly indictment, i don't know. so part of... there is the strong suspicion that some of them were acting on purpose to weaken the safety of these buildings and, of course, what they represent. but in the end, as you know,

there was no actual military action. right. so i think we live in a... it's not a simple situation, but i think we'll be able to deal with them. and i'm pretty sure that we'll, with the time, recover the full confidence also on our armed forces. right. well, there's a lot in that answer, so let mejust pick up on... you mentioned one individual, anderson torres, the chief of security in brasilia, as you put it — he used to be bolsonaro�*sjustice minister. he was arrested when he returned from the united states, and key officials in the lula administration are talking about his actions and suggesting that they see, er... they certainly accuse him of involvement in what happened on january the 8th. now, i need to be clear, anderson torres himself has absolutely denied any involvement. what i want to ask you is whether you fear that there

is a danger that bolsonaro supporters in brazil — and we know there are still many millions of them — will see your government conducting what they might perceive to be a witch hunt against key figures in the bolsonaro administration. well, i don't think there will be any witch hunt. i mean, in the sense that it will be unlike what happened in the bolsonaro government, in which people lost theirjobs because of their support for different political parties, for instance. i must say, i myself was not such an important figure, but i would never come to brasilia while i was outside, because it was... it felt like a strange land for me, and one of my sensations coming back, one of my feelings, was that i was on exile. i don't think this will happen, but certainly responsibilities have to be checked. and i think this will involve some action in terms of punishment as well. and what about

bolsonaro himself? a supreme courtjustice has already authorised adding jair bolsonaro to the investigation of what happened on january the 8th. do you believe that is the right thing to do? well, it's the decision of the supreme court. i mean, it's not up to me to comment. i think it's — in my way, in my view — normal that there are...there are doubts about his—his behaviour. but i think if the justice is doing that, it's theirjob, let us see what they do. again, to be clear, bolsonaro's lawyers have issued statements saying he repudiates the acts of vandalism and destruction on january the 8th. he never had any relationship or participation in those movements. but you're president lula's foreign policy adviser, so you've got one key issue facing you. do you believe, if bolsonaro stays in the united states, that brazil should seek his extradition? well, first, that depends, as you said before,

on the indictment and things that didn't occur yet. i don't know if they will occur. if they occur, of course, extradition will be something that might be tried. i'm not sure at this point how we can get that. but i think this is... but i want to comment something else on what you said. he may say now that he lamented, but he somehow encouraged the calls for coup d'etat and for military intervention at many other times, and including recently. i mean, in the beginning, his...his criticism was very mild. very mild. then, maybe already, because of the action of the supreme courtjustice, he's getting a little more emphatic on that. but i don't know. let the justice do the... run its course. at the very beginning of this interview, you—you compared the situation with what happened in the united states onjanuary 6th, 2021,

and the assault on the us capitol. do you believe that bolsonaro and his supporters have, in a very literal sense, modelled some of their actions and political behaviours on what they saw from donald trump? yes, i do believe. well, it's not exactly the same thing, of course, because in the case of...of the capitol hill episode, there was still some... some aspect, or some steps, for...for the of getting the election official, which was the voting by the senate, the acceptance by the senate. so in this respect, it is different. this one is taking place ex—post, but i have no doubt about that, and i think if you follow the declarations by bolsonaro, and statements by bolsonaro about fraud in the united states election when it happened, the presence of his son, actually, in some meetings just before

the capitol hill episode. it's not only the same mind—set, but it's almost, to some extent, the same techniques, of course, adapted to each reality. but i think... in my view, i think it's important to mention that because i don't think this is exclusively a brazilian phenomenon. certainly it happened in the united states and it may happen elsewhere. and i think there is an attack, an assault of the extreme right internationally on democracy. but you, you, mr amorim...yeah. i take the point you're making about this being something of a global phenomenon. but you in brazil, as you embark on, you know, lula's new administration, you've got a profound problem. i'vejust been looking at an opinion poll published by the atlas intelligence organisation in the past week or so. 38% of brazilians in that poll said that the storming of government buildings was partly or whollyjustified. almost 40% said that they

didn't really believe lula had legitimately won the presidential election, and 36% said they would favour military intervention to invalidate the result. i asked the question at the beginning, in the current polarised climate, is brazil ungovernable? it's a fair question, isn't it? well, is the united states ungovernable? i mean, similarthings were said and are still being said about the victory of biden. it's a difficult task, but i'm sure that with support of the people, the support of at least the most enlightened part of the elite, which is already with us... you know, the vice president has been the governor of sao paulo, and he was in the past not only part of cardoso�*s party, but he was the rival of lula in 2006. it's difficult to imagine another country with a presidential regime in which this would happen. so i think we have the support

of the more vivid and more, let us say, normal parts of the country. but there are, of course, first people who have interest in having totally legal activities like the gold mining, like the destruction of the amazon, like...all kinds of illegal things or semi—illegal things which they want totally deregulated. and there is a lot of mind manipulation as well, all over. i don't want to be... but... but with respect with respect, mr amorim, you, in that answer, implying to me that people who support bolsonaro are somehow abnormal, that that they're not normal, that they're being manipulated... i mean, all these phrases you're using suggest to me that brazil has got a fundamental problem, because both sides are almost literally dehumanising the other. and that is a very toxic political environment. no. i'm sorry.

we are not dehumanising anyone. i think it's the contrary. i think on the contrary. i mean, i said that several times before the election, of course i support the progressive government, but i would already be very happy if we have a normal government. the cardoso government was a normal government, the sarney government was a normal government. so bolsonaro was, for me, a point totally out of the of the normal curve, so to say. but there was a lot of manipulation. there was the use of state money, there was the use of government money during the election. he did totally... i mean, not to speak about other aspects that have been referred to, the pandemics and vaccination and so on — all that was abnormal. can you imagine a head of state, a head of government, laughing because some people are dying of suffocation? is that normal? i don't know. but of course, there was a lot of mind manipulation. this is not a problem of brazil.

i mean, it's the same question in the united states. i won't mention other countries because i don't want. but in the united states, i mentioned because bolsonaro takes trump as his model. so it's not very different. let me ask you about lula's agenda. it's very ambitious, in a way. he says he's absolutely determined to address poverty in brazil. 0bviously, he started that in his first tenure as president, but he wants to continue that. he's also pledged to the world that he will absolutely put an end to deforestation in the amazon, which obviously comes at a price and will be very expensive for brazil in many ways. how can he do that when his own party only commands i2% of the seats in the congress in brazil, and when his position is so much weaker than it was when he was president first time around? well, i'm not sure about the second part of what you said.

i mean, let mejust say, in his first mandate and the continuation, of course, during the two first years or three first years of dilma rousseff, hunger was abolished in brazil... we have zero hunger and now... ..which was one of his objectives. now, of course, hunger has come back. yeah. the latest figures suggest your hunger rate, if i can put it that way, is around 16% at the moment. at the same time as you have rising national debt and a hole in your annual budget, which lula is desperately trying to fill. you've got a massive economic challenge, and that's not a very easy place to start if you're going to have another poverty eradication campaign. well, we'll have... stephen, i mean, i remember i was in london as ambassador at the time of the election of lula, and there were very good economists, very serious ones, who said that the relation between debt and the gdp in brazil was untenable and that

with lula, in six months everything would be burst. . . busted. so, you know, and we did that. we stabilised the country. brazil became one of the most prosperous economies in the g20 and hunger was abolished. of course there was the boom of commodities and so on. i think that we have this institutional problem now that i'm sure we'll be able to win. but on the other hand, in a positive sense, i think brazil, with its policy on environment, especially climate change and its policy against hunger, with attention to health, the global health, and with this attack on inequality, will be a place that will attract a lot of investment, as it did before. and i think... well... ..we have confidence on that. we are not living in a static world. it's a dynamic. and that's what happened some years ago. you want to believe that lula's election is going to change, perhaps, brazil's reputation around the world. but i notice that the

environment minister marina silva has just gone to davos and just castigated for the rich...the rich world for not providing the $100 billion that was promised to help end deforestation across the world. if you don't get the money that you believe you've been promised from the rich world, are you suggesting that lula's pledge to end deforestation will not apply? well, it will apply, i'm sure of that, the same way as the combating of hunger applied. of course, we count on international cooperation. we have a lot of very good cooperation. for instance, with norway, summit with germany. it's an example that can be developed, but of course, and change it and correct it. but i think the determination is there and i have... i don't have any doubt that president lula will work on that direction and the support that we will receive will increase because many of these poor people are really manipulated. but of course, what helps that is insecurity in the economics,

in the economic sphere. and i think this will improve, i'm very sure. of course, it's not magic, but that's what people everyone said, as i mentioned to you, i don't want to mention the names, but these were very important economic journalists that said it was impossible. hmm. now, well, in ten years that happened. well, you sound...you sound confident on that score. but there are other ways in which brazil's reputation will be judged. your foreign minister, i'm sure... your colleague mauro vieira has talked about repositioning brazil, but ijust wonder whether you're going to change policy on russia. as recently as may, lula said that volodymyr zelensky, president of ukraine, was, quote, "just as responsible for the war in ukraine as putin." does he... do you believe that? and does lula still believe that today? well, i think you should... let me say one thing. it's clear that brazil condemns the invasion of ukraine. it's clear that brazil thinks

that the violation of the un charter in several respects, which i don't need to repeat, but for instance, the territorial integrity of states — it's not only not only a mistake, but it's illegal, totally illegal. so we condemn that. but we think now that we have to think on how to get peace. we cannot just stay on the, you know... well, isn't quite obvious in terms of international law... let me finish. ..what has to happen for peace to prevail? and that is simply that the russians withdraw from ukraine. let me finish, please. you have your point of view. let me finish mine. the question is, what is the objective? to get peace orjust weaken russia? we have that debt problem after the first world war, and you know, history can teach us some lessons. so we have to take a view that we... that international action should aim at peace. of course, we don't favour and don't accept what happened, but how to get to peace

is the great challenge that should be our preoccupation. briefly, if you would, does brazil oppose international sanctions on russia right now? well, we don't think russians solve the. . .. sorry, i don't think sanctions solve the question. and we know that sanctions very often harden the positions of those whose behaviour we want to change. that's not a value judgment. that's a fact. that's something that kissinger will tell you. probably another conservative, realistic thinkers in the united states also would say. 0dd, in a way, that when it comes to russia, bolsonaro, whose values you obviously have no time for, in many ways... bolsonaro pursued a policy which sounds very much like lula's policy. well, bolsonaro didn't have any policy. it was opportunistic. and maybe there for some coincidence, which i don't want to explore now,

because i think these are sensitive questions that i don't have evidence on that enough. but bolsonaro had other objectives maybe to seek. well, then... all right. so, that's russia. just one other quick one on foreign policy, which, of course, is your area. what about venezuela ? ijust spoke to leopoldo lopez, one of the leaders in exile of the venezuelan opposition movement. he says that maduro, nicolas maduro, president of venezuela, is nothing more than a dictator and that the democratic world must continue to put every form of pressure possible to get rid of the dictatorship and establish democracy in venezuela. do you agree? stephen, let me say i believe in dialogue he says that maduro, nicolas maduro, president of venezuela, is nothing more than a dictator and that the democratic world must continue to put every form of pressure possible to get rid of the dictatorship and establish democracy in venezuela. do you agree? stephen, let me say i believe in dialogue and i believe in example. i don't believe in sanctions and i don't believe in the threats of invasion, as it happened during the trump government. so, that's what happened. for instance, when we were in government, we created a group of friends.

colin powell was part of that and we consulted often and well, at that time, we at least... we avoided a civil war. i don't know... i don't want to have any qualification for maduro, but certainly guaido, who all of you supported, is a fiction. and now it's a fiction that is seen as a fiction by the venezuelan opposition itself. so it's dialogue, of course, and example and persuasion, which can be done in a way that's not really imposition from outside, which is not seen as imposition from outside. that doesn't work. you know, how many years there are sanctions in cuba? 60 years. the historians of next century will look at that with...maybe with irony. sadly, sadly, celso amorim, we've run out of time, but it's been a pleasure to talk to you. a pleasure for me, stephen.

hello. this week's weather has been following a familiar pattern — most of the wintry showers have been across northern and western parts of the uk, so it's a good covering of snow in places, especially into the higher ground. the further east you are in the uk, it's been mainly dry. even though it's been sunny though, it hasn't melted the frost. and we're in the cold air clearly. there is a change though going into the weekend — milder air toppling in across the north and west of the uk. warmer colours doesn't translate into sunshine, mind you. the blue hanging on a bit longer towards east anglia and the southeast — so here through the weekend, we'll stay cold. until the weekend, though, it is cold still across the uk. however, where we've had those wintry showers, once we get past thursday morning, they will be easing. another widespread and quite hard frost as the day begins, and do watch out for ice after the showers we've had

overnight, and there'll still be some falling into the morning — northern scotland, for example, for northern ireland, for wales and for western parts of england. there are met office warnings out there, do check those if you're heading out early on. through the day, most of these wintry showers will fade. a lot of people will have dry weather, but windy with further rain, sleet, and snow pushing back in across northern scotland, adding to the snow we've already got here, and maybe the odd shower brushing the north sea coast of northeast england into the afternoon. temperatures only slowly heading up, but it'll clearly feel quite cold — though, for many away from northern scotland, there is a lighter wind on through thursday night and into friday morning. still some wintry showers across northern and eastern scotland along some north sea coasts, as well. but for most, it's dry and clear, though, the chance of getting some fog patches across western parts. and maybe not as cold first thing, but still a widespread frost. and actually on friday, the focus of the showers will be in north sea coastal counties. where we've had most of the wintry showers so far today, it'll be dry and mainly sunny. temperatures maybe a degree or so higher in places, but it'll still feel

cold out there. into the weekend, though, the changes are under way — now i mentioned, although it is turning milder across the north and west, there'll be plenty of cloud around, there will be patchy rain. where it's clearer still, down towards the south and east, the cold air hangs on after a frosty start. there could be a few patches reluctant to clear, and perhaps more widespread fog towards the southeast on sunday. temperatures only gradually rising across southeast england, where elsewhere it's turning much milder — ii celsius, for example, in armagh.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines — new zealand's prime minister jacinda ardern announces her resignation, saying she doesn't have "enough in the tank" to run for re—election. i know what this job takes, and i know what this job takes, and i know what this job takes, and i know that i no longer have enoughin i know that i no longer have enough in the tank to do it justice. it's that simple. ukraine's interior minister is killed in a helicopter crash in kyiv. it came down close to a children's nursery. 14 people have died, including a child. translation: we ran - into the street and turning. there were bodies and debris lying around. there was smoke, blood and clothes — and mothers were running. also coming up in this

hour of newsday —