this is bbc news. the headlines: us investigators have found six more classified documents at the home of president biden. his lawyer says the search of the property in delaware took around 13 hours, and some handwritten notes were also seized. the white house says it's continuing to co—operate. massive demonstrations have been held in israel against plans from the new right—wing government to overhaul the judicial system. there were more than one hundred—thousand protesters in tel aviv. it was the largest demonstration since benjamin netanyahu's return to power last month. turkey has condemned the burning of a copy of the quran during a protest in sweden, describing it

as a "vile act". the anti—muslim demonstration was organised by a far—right politician, and took place in front of the turkish embassy. now on bbc news, the media show. a warning, this programme includes frank discussion of misogyny, violence and allegations of sexual assault. hello and welcome. now, the chances are that six months ago you didn't know who andrew tate was, and the chances are that now you do. 0h, hello, hello... andrew tate�*s a former kickboxer. he's now a social media influencer. last year, he was more googled than donald trump or kim kardashian, and his content�*s amassed hundreds of millions of views. his enthusiasm for misogyny, cars and wealth has delivered

fame, thousands of fans and many thousands of dollars. he's also being held in romania as part of an investigation into rape and people trafficking. tate denies all the allegations. do you ever wonder why some people who you've never heard of before, all of a sudden, appear everywhere? and that clip we just heard? well, that was the journalist matt shea, who gained access to tate�*s compound in romania. to get inside, i had agreed to endure a professional cage fight in romania... i know he's going to lose, but wow, he's actually in there! ...along with a hundred tate superfans. matt shea, welcome to the media show. thank you. you've made this film for vice, it's called the dangerous rise of andrew tate. i wonder when you first decided to try and make contact with him? well, i was actually first brought onto this story by a brilliantjournalist and producer called jamie thomson who's been following andrew tate for years before he became famous.

so by the time we were filming in his compound in romania, we were positioned in such a way that the calls for him to be the platform were just happening and we had a kind of inside view of him and his inner circle dealing with that. and how do you go about requesting access to andrew tate�*s compound and requesting an interview? well, i think andrew tate was, and his team, are quite aware of the fact that any publicity, even bad publicity, would help them. and that was perhaps one of the reasons they decided to let us in. i think what they didn't realise was that we were also simultaneously doing an investigation into him that ultimately led to us speaking to, for the first time, some of the women from his past who allege that he raped and abused them. and when he and his colleagues

agreed to let you into his compound and to film, did they give you conditions? did they say, well, you can do this, you can't do that. you can ask this, you can't ask that? well, we're always up front with him that we would be making an objective documentary and telling all the facts as we saw them. but, yes, when we were there, you know, there were attempts to control our access. we had chaperones constantly, we were told, don't go in there, that door is locked, if you try and go in there, someone will put a gun in yourface. we had, you know, sort of tall, scary, intimidating, strong men behind us when we were interviewing everyone, monitoring our questions and all of that. so, yeah. well, thank you for coming on to speak about your film. and andrew tate�*s story more broadly connects directly well, thank you for coming on to speak about your film. to how media content is made, distributed, moderated and consumed. and we're going to spend today's edition of the media show understanding that with the help of matt shea, but also with helen lewis, who's staff writer at the atlantic, also presenter of the recent bbc podcast series the new gurus, which looks at online personalities with big followings. hi helen. would you consider andrew

tate a form of guru? 0h, absolutely. he fits very firmly into what's known as the kind of 'manosphere'. so these are a suite of gurus who attempt to tell young men how to live. and, you know, there is a very strong ideology behind them, which is that a form of masculinity has been lost. and, you know, having watched matt's excellent documentary, the thing that strikes me is it's very much like a 13—year—old boy's idea of what it means to be a man. a guy goes up and introduces us, my name is alpha wolf and how matt did not laugh at that point, but it's like so much stuff on the internet now where it is both ironic and not ironic, in the sense that they're saying, i'm a misogynist, you know, of course everyone calls me a misogynist, you know? and there's understood to be a performance there, but it is also serious at the same time. and that's something i think journalism really struggles to grapple with, is saying that someone is putting on a show for you, but underneath the show there is something nasty going on at the same time. and we're going to get into those dilemmas, questions for journalists when they choose to interact with someone like andrew tate. let's also bring in scott galloway, host of the biggest business podcast in the us, the prof g show, as well as being host of pivot,

many of you listening will know it, it's a hugely popular tech podcast. scott galloway, you're very welcome to the media show. thanks for your time today. thanks for having me. what lessons are you taking for the media from the story of andrew tate and the extent to which his content is consumed? i think it's more a spectacle than significant. _ the real learning is how to game the system. i and that is, he encourages. people to put out thousands of videos that go shorter and shorter and shorter. j and he's tapped into i the same rage machine that the algorithms love, that both donald trump. and elon musk have tapped into. and that is the optimal piece i of content is something short, compelling, resonates with 60% of your audience and enrages i the other 40%. because the moment you have rage and conflict around - content, you get a lot - of clicks and the algorithms go, "we like this."

and so, whether you say it's women have — _ rape victims have to own up to - some responsibility for the rape, - which is an outrageous - statement, it creates a lot of activity, comments i and more nespresso ads and the algorithms . elevate that content. so he has gamified the system and to a certain extent- social media has kind i of created this monster, if you will. and matt, when you were interacting notjust with andrew tate, but some of his colleagues, some of the factors that scott describes? yeah, definitely. and i think it's important to remember that one of the ways that he's been able to do what scott describes is through something called the hustlers university, which is ostensibly a kind of online course where andrew tate will teach you how to become wealthy and successful and an alpha male like him. it's now been shut down, but when it was running, it also ran a kind of affiliate marketing scheme where you had a financial incentive to share re—edited clips of andrew tape and students of the university, of which there almost 200,000 at the time, were instructed that the more controversial, the better in terms of sharing content of his. so, you know, it's notjust him

posting these videos. it's an army of young people and that's very difficult to take. tiktok and other platforms are finding it very difficult to shut that down. did he acknowledge as much when you spoke to him? i tried to get him to speak on that, and he sort of says, you know, oh, iwouldn�*t claim to have any control over, his exact words were — where some random 14—year—old singaporean who re—edits my clips and tried to sort of say that it wasn't his intention. but really this is a very well thought out and kind of ingenious campaign to make him famous. now, we've already alluded to some of the challenges forjournalists and for the media as to whether to engage with someone like andrew tate or not. it's fair to say at times, matt, you had a reasonably immersive experience when in the compound. this is part of your film

when you are face to face with members of what's called �*the war room', the inner circuit, if you like, of andrew tate. and you're at a boxing training session. i asked him specifically about the lover boy method, which is... before the howard university, and you had something called the phd course, which is basically the pimping degree, which is instructs young men how to convince women to work for them in some sort of sex—adjacent porn industry. so i kind of grilled them on that in the morning. and then in the afternoon he basically engineered a situation where we were in a boxing gym and he started punching me in the face. well, let's hear a little of how that went for you. oh, look, you'rel bleeding already. it's only the warm up. we've got ten more rounds. i meet and get punched in the face by the inner circle of the war room. in the world andrew is creating not only are women to be subjugated... sorry, that almost felt like i got knocked out. but men defined by their capacity to inflict violence.

0k. tap out. and when you tried to tap out to stop the whole thing, they didn't look overly enthused about stopping. yeah. you know, one of the things they said was if this was a street fight, you couldn't tap out. and did you have any journalistic concerns about doing that or at one stage you get into a cage fight as part of a test that andrew tate had set some people who'd paid to visit the compound, did you think at any point, perhaps this is getting into territory i shouldn't be in? yeah. i mean, asjournalists, we often have to do, especially making a documentary, lots of uncomfortable things to get the access that we do. but the result was, you know, we were the first people and the only people to get access to his so called secret society, the war room. and ultimately, our access led to us being the only people who managed to give a platform to voice to the women who allege that he sexually assaulted them and abused them. so, you know, ultimately,

this investigation is, you know, gives the biggest picture of his so—called secret society and the women from his past. what did you make, helen, as you watch that section of the film? i think it's extraordinarily powerful. i mean, we're talking about this in a week in which, you know, serving metropolitan police detectives convicted of a huge number of rapes, you know, with red flags for 20 years back. and i think matt's film makes very clear that there have been a number of red flags that were not picked up on in the background of andrew tate, a number and again, this speaks to an interaction with technology, which is that misogyny is often the onramp to other types of bigotry. it's often the onramp to far right content, for example, simply because it is so nebulous, so widespread, and actually, so low levels tolerated. you know, the idea that women just need a smack is actually something that you can get away with saying, on pretty much every social

network in the way that you cannot say overtly racist things. and so andrew tate had to push it a long way before he eventually got banned from all these social networks, which, as matt demonstrates, because he then had other people filling in, posting his content was not necessarily as effective. and, you know, this is somebody that elon musk brought back to twitter as well. so this is a part of the story that's worth saying that the ban did not endure in the case of twitter. it's also worth saying that in the case of his detention in romania at the moment, andrew tate denies all the allegations. also, a statement given on behalf of him to the daily mirror reads andrew and tristan tate, that's his brother. have the utmost respect for the romanian authorities and will always assist and help in any way they can. scott, what's your view of how journalists and the media should interact with a phenomenon like andrew tate? it's tough because, you know, i include myself in this - loosely, in the media, i'm not a journalist, i but you wonder if you're just| adding more grist to the mill when you highlight or bring attention to this kind - of truth. and i would argue i that the guilty party are if he and his brother have. committed crimes in romania, i hope he's held to account.

but i would say the culprit in the us or what is not i helping our social media i platforms that see benefit, having algorithms elevate . content that's controversial, that creates a discourse that's more coarse. - and they claim, if you question tiktok, they'll claim _ he's been banned. they'll say, - 'we've banned him'. and yet he's still everywhere. and what you're seeing - in the eu is taking a real lead on this is they're saying - if hate speech, speech offline is illegal, it's going| to be illegal online. but to that point, matt, you were saying that the hustlers university, which andrew tate has created, circumvents some of the bans from the big tech companies that scott's just listed. yeah, that's right. and it's important to remember, the hustlers university is not a place in the real world. but yeah, this is the thing. how do you stop kind of this kind of misogynistic content spreading when it's not him posting it, it's his army? and let me just read you a couple of comments.

andrew tate was interviewed by hugo rifkind, the british journalist, recently. and towards the end of that article, hugo rivkin writes, if i had a son, i'd hate the thought of him being exposed to it. and i'm farfrom wild about my daughters having to deal with teenage boys who have soaked in it. i've even agonised about whether i ought to do this interview. although if the most googled man on the planet can't be written about in a newspaper, then i'm honestly not sure what any of us are here for. what's your view of that, helen? is there a point at which journalists should stop engaging? well, i made that decision, actually. i was asked last year to go on a podcast, which was on a tiktok channel on a podcast, you know, and be, the other guest who was interviewed essentially and i turned it down because what i felt in that case was that was something that was going to get chopped up and clipped up. and i was there to be the, you know, woman that he get to call ugly and stupid and dunk on and the butt of the joke, essentially. and what would essentially happen was exactly as scott was saying, some more controversial content would be created. and i think you have to make that decision when you're covering people like this. as matt said earlier, for them, no publicity. you know, there is all

publicity is good publicity because itjust puts them in front of people. and the other part of this is the kind of post—cancellation sphere of social networks that we now have. so if you get driven off youtube, then you go to rumble, which is a, you know, has even fewer safeguards. hustlers university takes place on discord, which is chat servers that are closed to outsiders. you know, you can't surf past them accidentally. the tiktok algorithm itself is incredibly opaque. we don't know what it prioritises, who's in charge of it, what the rules of it are. so that is the other part of this is that it's actually functionally what happens is people get driven to places where you and i can't see them any more. you know, my tiktok algorithm delivers me videos of sharks and horses having their hooves cleaned. if i'd logged into that and signed up as a 14—year—old boy and watched a few of these videos, it would be very different. and, you know, i interviewed jordan peterson, who is in different part of the manosphere from andrew tate in 2018. but my male friends kept reporting to me that when they watched that on youtube, they were then served 15 more jordan peterson videos.

you know, the algorithms know very much what it is that, you know, who you are demographically and what you want to watch, and they serve you more and more of it. i was going to say, i think sort of one exception to that is providing a useful context for people to learn about andrew tate within. so for example, he's already out there, his content has been viewed over 13 billion times on tiktok alone. right? so if your viewers haven't heard of him, there are sons and nephews of theirs will have. and for the first time through our reporting, we've managed to give a voice to kind of women from his past. so now when someome googles him they won't just see andrew tate and him talking about himself and justifying himself, they'll also get a chance to hear the voices of women who allege that he raped and physically abused them and make a more informed decision about whether to follow him. if he's committed crimes... and by the way, helen, i i think he made absolutely the right choice because having someone who's a credible - journalist from the atlantic just creates a halo - of credibility that he does not deserve being in the same i room with him.

so i think i applaudl your decision there. but if he's committed crimes, i he should be held accountable. but it's debatable as to i whether his content online should be banned. it's unhealthy, it's wrong. but you could find a lot - of other content like that that doesn't get banned wherej what i think we're missing in the media is that i do think there are a lot of young menl who are looking for explanation l or they feel as if they haven'tl been given, that they've beenj on the wrong end of a societal movement and that they aren't being treated fairly. _ and i think there is a lot - of evidence showing that no cohort has fallen further, faster than young men, i and that there's a certain amount of masculinity, l whether it's being aggressive or physically strong, - that is conflated with toxicity. . you hear the term toxic- masculinity more than you hear the term masculinity. and if we want to talk - about what the media can do to help here, other- than highlighting how wrong he is, which quite frankly, l is attractive to many young men, it's to start finding positive role models- of masculinity and lifting

them up and recognising that there is more benign and positive masculinity. in the world than there is toxic masculinity. i we need to fill this void - because there is a void there. there is a need amongst young men to understand why- they are failing. helen, do you think there's a void that the media could fill? to use scott's phrase. i think there's definitely something i found all the way through making the new gurus, which is a kind of search for either replacement father figures or replacement kind of, you know, for the sort of bar, the pub, you know, the kind of place that male spaces dominated by men where men can hang out. and i think that is one of the things that is a downside to so much more of social life having moved online is instead of going down to your local wetherspoons, where a kind of cross—section of people were there saying, don't worry, lad, you know, it'll all work out in the end. instead, young men end up finding themselves falling into these circles. the bit where i slightly deviate with it is that something i saw with all of the gurus and something that makes you very appealing online is a sense of injustice

and being wronged. and this is sometimes voiced by actual literal millionaires and people with, you know, russell brand has got 6 million subscribers on youtube and presents himself as this tiny, henpecked voice standing up against the man. well, he's any definition of the man that you want to have. so while i have sympathy with scott's position, i would also caution about uncritically accepting any guru's grievance narrative. what matt does very successfully is what he's talking about there is contextualizing andrew tate. so you don't just give andrew tate a platform to do the performance of andrew tateness, which is, you know, to be clear, extraordinarily charismatic and captivating. but you put it in the context of both the victims of allegations. and one of the things i think comes out very strongly in the vice documentary is that he's got a set of lines as good as any politician i've ever worked with. if you get beyond the lines, he starts umming and ahhing and looks very uncomfortable. so what you have to be very careful not to do is set it up like a cage fighting. you know, the guy is a kickboxer. he you know, he plays he's like a heel in wrestling and he will play that.

but what you have to do, i think now we have to think more about in the media is about the idea that when you put out to your audience, what's the package, what's the stuff you put around it, how do you give people the information to understand not just this captivating performance that they're seeing? but, helen, you're right. if we watch the whole of matt's documentary, there's a huge amount of context which is valuable to judge the exchanges with andrew tate. but actually, matt, you document yourself how you went onto his podcast and then your appearance on that podcast and the way that tate dealt with you was chopped up in a way that presented the whole thing to viewers on tiktok in a way that didn't really represent what had happened. so even though you were taking as many precautions as you could, your involvement with tate instantly got misrepresented. and that's the reason i went on the podcast was to try and figure out how this machine works. and you're right, within kind of seconds of going, within minutes of going on there, his arms were cutting, you know, that

podcast up and resharing it and manipulating it in lots and lots of ways. however, now if you look him up along with my name or along with vice news, you'll hear from the women who allege that he, you know, again, raped and physically abused them. and also, you'll hear what we've also published, which is voice notes from these women. and this is the really crucial thing which purportedly appeared to show andrew tate discussing it, admitting to these crimes, voice notes which were submitted to the police and the crown prosecution service in the uk and they declined to prosecute. and you're right, those are now in the public domain. but, scott, when you're creating media and when we look at the media around andrew tate, does everyone working within the media need to accept that anything that we all produce is going to be chopped up, twisted, turned around, and as such, the way it's consumed, immediately we lose control of that. yeah, well, whoever holds the editing software can i position it however they want. and unfortunately, he's- enlisted this army that creates content that's very snackable and the algorithms love. -

but i wonder if we're talking about this. . i think he's the symptom, he's not the disease. - and i think the disease is that there are a lot i of young men in the us, l for every one male college graduate, which is still the ultimate onramp . to the middle class in america, there's going to be two female | college grads, four times as likely to be addicted, i three times as likely to kill. themselves, 12 times as likely to be incarcerated. and they're looking for answers. - and i think until, and also i think we on the left - sometimes don't want - to acknowledge that there is a difference in boys have different needs. | they need male role models in their life. | and i think we have - to figure out programmes. helen was talking about third spaces, whether it's - afterschool sports, - whether it's boy scouts, whether it's church, - whether it's programmes that get more men, prison release programmes. | what happens when they have prison release programmes? i crime goes down because young males get more men back- in their neighbourhood. i think we're treating... he's a symptom. but the more thoughtful- conversation is how do we find out, how do we address why

young men have become - so susceptible to this blame . game and create a much more robust, much more enlightened view of masculinity, _ such that a guy like me . doesn't feel like he needs to deprogram his 15—year—old from this content. _ so he'sjust a symptom. someone else . will fill the void. we have to go after these. how do you go about deprogramming a 15—year—old son? very carefully. does he want to be deprogrammed? well, that's the thing. when dad says it, you worry that you're going to - just encourage it. and what i try to do . is highlight some other examples of what i would call masculinity that are more - and just some basics, some basics. - when you start blaming i women for your problems, you know you failed. that means you failed. that means you have lost the plot basics. i and we know from the news that teachers and parents are engaging with an awful lot of teenage boys at the moment because of andrew tate�*s content. i mustjust ask, matt

and helen, before we wrap up, about the experience of being on the receiving end of a lack of enthusiasm, shall we say, from people who support the kind of figures like andrew tate is, or that were featured in helen's programme as well. because i'm assuming, matt, that as well as being punched in the face a number of times during your visit since you left romania, you've also been attacked repeatedly online. yeah, that's right. i've got hundreds of death threats and also, you know, claims that... hundreds? the women in... sorry, hundreds of death threats? yes. hundreds of death threats. and also claims that i've paid the women, you know, money to be in the film, claims that i've doctored the voice notes that are clearly in andrew tate�*s voice, where he appears to discuss these crimes of rape and abuse. you know, all that's come through. yeah, in a big way. and helen, what about you when you made your programme? well, the response to the new gurus has been one

of, i mean, iwas worried because, as you say, lots of these communities are innately hostile to the mainstream media. they don't want to engage with you and they think you will only ever stitch them up. and any kind of objectivity is kind of taken as offensiveness. so, but it was one of the less alarming response responses i've ever had. but matt's right to bring this up, this is a continuing issue forjournalists, is that luckily news organisations are becoming better at safeguarding their reporters from this. but if you are reporting on communities like this, you should expect everything from death threats to doxxing, to people trying to hack into your emails, to your social media accounts. and news organisations have to have a duty of responsibility to protect and supportjournalists in those circumstances. and to that final point, scott, if whole communities are set up to be suspicious of the mainstream, you're advocating mainstream media evolves what it does, but perhaps it can't reach those people because they already have a fixed view of the type of media content that will be coming from those sources. that's a tough one.

at the end of the day, in my opinion, look, l it reverse engineers to anyl time you have an arbitrage, you transition something to another source. - there's emissions, whether it's oil to petroleum or it's - attention to advertising. and we have these mediums now that are very _ profit—motivated, where some of our most talented people i and well—resourced companies have a profit motive _ in elevating contentj that enrages people because enragement. equals an engagement. and there's a real. externality to that. and until we hold these platforms to the same i responsibility and _ accountability that we would hold the bbc or the new york times or the atlantic, - they're going to continue to. engage in these externalities and let people continue to smoke or put carbon| into the air. it's that simple. scott, yours will be the last thought on this matter because we're out of time. thank you very much to you, that's professor scott galloway from the prof gee podcast and the pivot podcast. thanks to you to helen lewis, staff writer at the atlantic, and to match matt shea, the film—maker who's produced the dangerous rise of andrew tate for vice. that's it for this edition of the media show. thanks as ever, for watching. we'll be back

with you next week. bye— bye. hello. we have seen some cloudier, milder conditions moving in from the north—west but many of us further south and east have still got clear skies overhead and some frost and some fog. nearer the ground, this is the picture in sowerby bridge a little bit earlier on. now, we're going to see a real mix through the course of sunday. still sticking with the cloudier, milder theme in the north and west with some rain around, but further south and east, cold, frosty with some lingering fog, too. and that contrast�*s down to the fact that we've still got this cold air mass with us across central and southern areas. but this weather front in the north and the west is bringing milder conditions and some fairly patchy rain through the course of the day, too. so, for the rest of the overnight period, there's that rain, then, pushing in across the west of scotland, northern ireland. fog forming through the early hours across many central,

eastern and southern parts of england in particular, so to start off our sunday morning, we're going to see temperatures down to about —6, possibly —7 degrees towards the south and east but frost—free in the north—west. so, through the day on sunday, then, there's that early fog in the east, slowly clearing away. some rain for parts of western scotland and through some of these irish sea coasts, pushing into pembrokeshire, perhaps cornwall, for instance, as well. some sunshine develops once that fog slowly lifts away from southern and eastern england but it will feel cold — just two or three degrees in the east, even colder if you see the fog lingering, but perhaps double figures for the likes of belfast, for instance. some clearer skies for a time across the north of scotland. as we move through sunday night now into monday, more of the same — cold and frosty towards the south and east with temperatures down below freezing but frost—free with milder weather holding on across scotland and northern ireland. so, we've got this area of high pressure which is really building across much of the uk as we move through into monday. just weather fronts in the far north there. so, i think there could be some rain in the far north of scotland and northern isles, for instance, and the odd splash around some of these irish sea coats.

some sunshine again developing for the bulk of england and wales after that fog gradually clears away. so, top temperatures again around 3—5 degrees, on the chilly side, but there'll be some sunshine towards the south and east, milder but cloudier in the north and the west. and then, as we head through the middle of the week, still high pressure around, perhaps just a weak front just making its way south and introducing a few splashes of rain. but in the outlook, generally, a lot of dry weather. it will be turning milder through the week ahead but also rather cloudy at times, too. bye—bye.

good morning. welcome to breakfast, with rogerjohnson and nina warhurst. 0ur headlines today: labour reports borisjohnson to the parliamentary standards watchdog over claims that bbc chairman richard sharp helped him secure an £800,000 loan guarantee. a concert featuring global stars, a day of volunteering, and a big lunch — buckingham palace reveals new details for the king's coronation weekend. the british researchers using hollywood avatar technology to improve treatment for patients with rare genetic disorders. frank lampard says he is determined to fight on and doesn't fear being sacked, despite another defeat for his everton side that leaves them joint bottom of the premier league.