for you at the top of the hour when we return to newsday. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the war in ukraine has focused attention on vladimir putin's apparent desire to remake a greater russian space, incorporating chunks of the former soviet empire. with that in mind, keep an eye on what's happening in the tiny, disputed territory of nagorno—karabakh, where ethnic armenians backed by russia continue to defy azerbaijan's claim to sovereignty. my guest is ruben vardanyan, an armenian who made his fortune in russia and who is now de facto prime minister of nagorno—karabakh. his enclave is in deep trouble. will russia save it?

reuben vatanen in nagorno—karabakh, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. now, mrvardanyan, many in our hardtalk audience will not know very much about nagorno—karabakh, but suffice to say, you are the state minister in a tiny territory of some 120,000 people. and right now, you have an urgent crisis because your land route out to armenia is currently blockaded. what is the situation for the people living in your territory today? first of all, i want

to say thank you for doing this interview. it's very important for the world knowing what's happening in a locked out territory where 120,000 people living in their own homeland for thousands of years and last 35 years was fighting for our own independence. and 38 days in december 12th, the azerbaijan named eco—activists block the road and with the support of the azerbaijani state now they control the road and we don't get anything except from red cross and russian peacekeepers. and we have a thousand kids. and we have 30,000 kids. it's winter, no electricity, limited electricity, no gas, basically, now, and no food and medicaments and gasoline without help of red cross and russian peacekeepers can come to our territory now. so the red cross is making sure that some vital medicines get through. but i, i noticed that the authorities in your enclave have implemented a ration

system where buckwheat, rice, sugar, pasta, and cooking oil is made available. but it sounds to me, if this continues, your territory is not going to be viable for very long, is it? i mean, people are going to suffer and this cannot continue. first of all, red cross has only one truck, two trucks, and 15 tonnes is a very limited number of the medicaments or food they can bring. no illusion about how much they deliver. the second you don't know well is the armenians and artsakh is very strong people. we've been living in this for thousands of years and we are very strong in their commitment to stay in the homeland. and like i said, the 35 years is this fight happened and we are defending our territory and we believe in our

values and our system is why, with all the difficulty we're facing, i believe the people will stay and strong and will stay committed to the, our own homeland. you just referred to your territory as artsakh. i should make it plain that while you, in yourterritory, refer to it as artsakh, the azerbaijani government, of course, calls it nagorno—karabakh, as indeed does the international community. so i just want to be clear about that. the biggest confusion for me about what is happening right now is that you have around 2,000 russian military personnel on your territory as supposed peacekeepers. now, why are they not opening the road to make sure that supplies can get through? before answering this question, i want to say, if you look there, the class, the history books in azerbaijan, azerbaijan soviet republic time in 1980s, it was the same artsakh name and will be mentioned as armenian territories. i'm not doing something new, it's already been existed in a soviet time in azerbaijan, a historical book in the school.

but let's go back to your question. first of all, people need to understand there's only 2,000 peacekeepers and they have a very limited mandate to use the weapon. and it's eco—activists, civilians, who closed the road formerly. and we have 540 kilometers of the border, which needs to be also controlled by russian peacekeepers. without delusion, it's a very small number of the soldiers. they have only light weapons and they have no right to shoot. it's why, with any peacekeeper, it's always very difficult to interfere between two sides. but what isn't the truth, mr vardanyan, that right now vladimir putin has much bigger problems on his plate? the invasion of ukraine has led to a war which is sucking up resources in moscow, and the last thing putin really, frankly, wants to do is get involved in a conflict in nagorno—karabakh. that's the truth. it leaves you much weaker, doesn't it, because russia's

support is just not forthcoming. first of all, i don't know what's happening in his decision making, but we have a limitation. in november 9th 2020, azerbaijan, armenia and russia signed the documents, which was the number of the soldiers limited by azerbaijani side, which is why i don't know what you are talking about. maybe they had sent or not sent, but today they follow the document, it was signed which azerbaijan today fully violate. because we are guaranteed open road for armenians living in artsakh without any control and now there are violations. yeah, i understand that there was this understanding, it involved the armenian government and the azerbaijani government. what's interesting to me is that the armenian government, led by led by prime minister nikol pashinyan, is now very critical of moscow, saying that that

russian peacekeepers are failing in their duties. but you, interestingly, are being much less critical of moscow. why? you know, i advise you to come here with us and you will understand how it's important when you are surrounded by a state who has 10 million people with a lot of money, a lot of weapons, and we have only 120,000 people, and 30,000 kids, which needs to be safe. and we have 2,000 russian soldiers. do we want to peace with them? i want to ask you this question. are you ready for peace with the people who stay with you in this situation? i'm here in london, you're in nagorno—karabakh, it's the reality for you that has to be dealt with. and it seems right now that not only are the russians not helping you, but your relationship with armenia and in particular with prime minister pashinyan is becoming increasingly toxic. and it seems the yerevan government doesn't really have a working relationship with you. i don't know this information.

and by the way, in our country, the number one person, the president, who has always good contact with the prime minister, that's why i don't know about what you're talking. and this the speculation, which i'm not sure it makes sense to reflect the reference in our conversation. i think it's important to look at your background and why you are sitting in nagorno—karabakh today. you're a very wealthy man reputed to be worth at least $1 billion, thanks to a business career in moscow, which coincided with vladimir putin's rise. and clearly the two of you are quite close. why did you decide last year to renounce your russian citizenship, which required special permission from putin and remove yourself from russia and decide to live in nagorno—karabakh? why did you do that? first of all, i started my business in 1991 with the $35,000 with american

investors and i built together with my partners the best investment bank in the region. we bring a lot of investors to russia and biggest companies. i made the business in england. i made the business in the united states. i have a board membership in 30 different countries. and i been doing a lot of things in many places in philanthropy. that is why i think your conclusion about my closeness to vladimir putin is not right because i've been working with many, many people in the power in a different countries and are many, many private sector. well, you know that the organized crime and corruption reporting project and the navalny anti—corruption foundation have both accused you of, let's put it this way, dodgy business dealings in the past. now you've never been charged with anything but nonetheless there are allegations that you have been part of an oligarch system that vladimir putin, you know, watched over, and that that's partly

an explanation of your great wealth. look, four years ago, this publication happened. in these four years, i continue to stay and keep my position in many, many international organizations which confirm what people who know is true, people who knows me personally understand this is allegation without any proof, because no legal case, any place, any country's ever happened. there was an allegation about the king charles, about george clooney, about many other my colleagues and friends who have been working with me in a different project, like the minister, mentor of singapore, lee kuan yew, and many, many other people, which i've been privileged to know and work with. that's why, with all my respect to journalists who did my work, it's allegation it was just the publication without any proof. and second, the financial institution which i was run at the time had the trillions of dollars of turnover

with the hundreds of thousands of clients and blaming ruben vardanyan to doing something is it was like blamingjpmorgan or i know citibank has or doing something which way of course being responsible but not not being doing themselves. i think it was manipulation. and you're using this information again. i'm simply reflecting the record. and you're, of course, welcome to challenge anything i say. but the truth is that the azerbaijanis, in particular, they say that you are, and i'm quoting here political analyst elson sanyaolu in in baku, he says, ruben vardanyan is moscow's man in karabakh, and the kremlin is preparing for you to take complete charge of nagorno—karabakh. is that your intent? you know, i thought our programme would be about human rights, about the situation, humanitarian catastrophe, and if we will go about all the speculation and the special azerbaijani side doing and we can go forever. i will prefer to talk about how the 125,000 people surviving in during this horrible time.

and i have a pressure from, you name it, political scientist or eco—activist, by the way, i recommend you to check how many ecological protests have ever happened in azerbaijan during the last 30 years. and how many times autocratic regime of aliyev allowed any opposition for azerbaijan and not armenians allowed to say when it was against him? it's why we are talking about something which i am really a little bit surprised, but you're not touching the point of what's happening now real in here. and what is the behavior of azerbaijan, by the way, today? no, i'm more than more than, more than interested in talking about what is happening. but what is happening clearly is part of a bigger picture. the bigger picture is that the conflict on around your territory between armenia and azerbaijan has been going on for many decades. what we saw in 2020 was that the azerbaijani

military scored a major victory, pushed nagorno—karabakh back. you lost, what, two thirds and more of the territory you controlled before 2020. you now control a tiny enclave which is suffering from an economic blockade right now. and it seems to me your only realistic option is either to work out a political deal with azerbaijan or for the people, the armenian community in nagorno—karabakh, to decide that this is no longer sustainable and leave the territory. so which is it to be a political deal or leave? first of all, let me finish. today, the parliamentjust approved a resolution with strong message to president aliyev requesting de—blockade the road we're showing is not

only russia, but in france, in europe, parliament and the united states, surprisingly have a common view about this issue, which is really something very special, because we all know what this relationship between major european countries and russia today. even if the blockade is lifted, my question remains how can your community in nagorno—karabakh be viable in the long term? even the government in yerevan, the armenian government, says that this is no longer a territorial issue, ie they're not making a claim to turn nagorno—karabakh into an independent state or part of armenia. they say in yerevan it is simply a matter of rights. that is a question of negotiated negotiating, guaranteed security and human rights for the armenian community inside your territory. but the implication is that in the long run you will be part of the azerbaijani sovereign state. do you accept that? artsakh people, armenians who live in artsakh from 1988, when there were soviet times that we will not be part

of azerbaijan and they fight for theirfreedom and they did all the right legal other steps. and we are today facing a very clear question to the world saying do whatever right for self—determination, especially in a state who violate all the human rights for your own people, how you see possible to us to live in a country where is the regime, by the way, just for your understanding, for other people, understanding the family who are ruling republic being part of soviet union or independence 44 years. one family controlled the country. there is no rights for the azerbaijani people, not about talking about the armenian, how you see the possibility for ethnic minority, how they treat us to get any rights or any defense. for us, it's not a question about do we want it or not? we don't see any chance. by the way, it's blockade. and yesterday example was very simple the kids, which was because we are the separate families who unfortunately kids

was blocked in armenia, couldn't come back. after six weeks, the russian peacekeepers tried to bring them back to artsakh and they've been stopped and we been checked and psychologically attacked by others. xenophobia so high. i want to be clear about this then. so sorry to interrupt, but i do want to be clear. are you saying that for you? and of course, frankly, many people say that right now you are running things in nagorno—karabakh, you are in no way prepared to have any sort of negotiation or dialogue with president aliyev and the azerbaijan government? no, we are ready for our negotiation. we are ready for our negotiation with understanding from azerbaijan side with this negotiation for two sides. because what we said and we said from the first day of the asking in independence, we understand and we accept it will be we were living side to side, but we'll be separate territory, we'll be separate state. it will be separate rules of law because we are a democratic country. we cannot see ourselves be part of azerbaijan,

but we respect what we've been living in the same region and we need to find a way, despite all the difficulty, to find a solution which will be acceptable from both sides. right. do i take from that then that you fundamentally disagree? with the government in yerevan who say it is now simply a question of negotiating the right sort of dealfor your people, frankly, inside an azerbaijani state? they say it's a question of rights, human rights and security rights for your people being guaranteed. but they say it is no longer an issue of territory or sovereignty. armenian government, the leader of armenia, said, whatever will make the decision, the leaders of artsakh, we will follow our choice first. second, we got already read clear messages from france, from the united states, from russia. but we also see this issue is not closed. the page is not turned out. this is why, despite all the rhetoric around azerbaijan, international international

community there, by the way, in un discussion, in un security council, it was clear it was this topic is not over. it's not over because we have a right to self—determination, because it ethnic cleansing is restricted by un charter, which is why, despite all the speculations from azerbaijan, the story is not over. we believe we have a rights for our own independence, for our own rights, to live in our own homeland. most of the people who live in artsakh understand the difficulties what we are facing ready for stay and defend our own home. despite we are small and we are very big. yeah, well, you say it's not over, but one big factor in all of this is russia, is it not? i mean, for decades, armenia has relied on russia for military support. i just wonder what you have drawn in terms of lessons from putin's invasion, his war of aggression

in ukraine? do you regard that war, first of all, as something you should condemn? and do you also see that it has dangerous lessons for armenia? look, i am now a state minister of the small republic with 120,000 people suffering because of the huge attack from azerbaijan state. and i'm responsible to defend my kids who lives here and my nation. and whatever needs to have to be defended, i will do it is why i want to answer this question the way what i will say whatever is necessary to save artsakh i will do it. but that's no answer at all. ijust asked you whether you would condemn putin's invasion of ukraine, and i answer you saying ijust asked you whether you would condemn putin's invasion of ukraine. and i answer you saying whatever was necessary to defend my own people, whatever would be right for them in this situation, to stay silent. because i believe whatever my

answer to about position in russia, about france, about the un state or others will damage the opportunity to get support of international. it will be wrong for me to comment. this is why, with all my regret, what's happening in a different conflict, by the way, not only where in ukraine, but in yemen, in syria and many other places in the world. see, i carry only about what's happening with my people with i stay today in blockade for eight days with no electricity no gas. the thing is you're very much out of step with many armenians living in armenia because they're very worried by the implications of putin's invasion of ukraine. i'm going to quote to you benjamin ferguson, head of the center for political and economic strategic studies in yerevan. he said he says it is becoming obvious that we can no longer rely on russia. even if russia gets out of this ukraine war in one piece, they may well try to include us in armenia in a sort of union state with belarus, and that is not something we want. do you want that? do you think that armenia

is fate and future lies with russia, putin's russia? i don't want to talk about armenia. we are a separate country. i'm talking about artsakh. artsakh don't want to be part of azerbaijan, which is clear. it's all. and you're quite happy for a long term reliance on vladimir putin? what do you mean? well, i mean, it's quite simple. it seems to me that you're saying we are now quite distant politically from yerevan, from the armenian government. so your only guarantor, your only frankly hope for survival is vladimir putin. it's not true. the president macron clearly announced and made a lot of efforts to support artsakh. by the way, the speaker of the french senate was also made the same statement. the us ambassador said recently. what we will cooperate with russia and try to find a solution to help artsakh

to get out of this situation, which is why are manipulating a little bit because the western biggest country like france, the united states also clearly send a message that they are care about what's happening here. you know, there are people inside nagorno—karabakh and you're a small community, onlyjust over 100,000 people who think that your time as chief minister, state minister has been a disaster. bela la lion, she says that all you've done is stir up more trouble and jeopardize the security of our people. some want you out and they want you out now. it's the normal people have a different opinions. i'm happy person to be here with with our people. i'm walking in the street every day. but the point is the point is the point is many of the people in nagorno—karabakh think you're an outsider. you came in from moscow having made a fortune in russia. you're not, you weren't born in nagorno—karabakh. you were born in yerevan.

many people in nagorno—karabakh wonder if you truly have their interests at heart. now you can look my background. 20 years i've been doing here, my grandmother from here. i made around 89 projects in artsakh during the last 20 years. my son served in the army here. my daughter was here. so i it's all speculations which people, of course, exist. any places where you want to speculate and make the dirty stories without looking at the real story? i came here september 2nd of 2022 and i said, i will be like any other person. i didn't pretend to get any position. the president offered me the position, but i'm happy to stay without any position here. and i will stay here. i don't care. do i will be state minister or not? i'm here with the people who need my support. not because i'm rich, because they want to see the people outside of artsakh realize what artsakh is the key not only for them, artsakh is a key for entire nation because artsakh is one of the key dna keeper of armenian and armenian nation for thousands of years.

so to be clear and to sum up, because we're out of time, you are going nowhere. is that the message? i will stay with my people here. whatever. we will face it, it will face together. yes. thank you. hello. for some of us, it was a chilly weekend with frost and fog towards the south, milder conditions further north. and we're really keeping with that north west, south east split in the weather over the next few days.

frost and fog once again for parts of southern and eastern england in particular, but milder, cloudier conditions elsewhere. and that's because we've still got this cold air mass with us. you can see the blue colours through the course of monday into tuesday as well, pushing across really southern and southeastern parts of england, perhaps into south wales, but much milder conditions with the orange colours further north across the uk. so overnight we've seen quite a lot of fog forming, some dense freezing fog patches through parts of eastern england, east anglia, through to the west of london, for instance, minus seven degrees some of the overnight lows first thing monday morning, but milder and frost free further northwest. so monday then most places rather cloudy pretty much of the day. the best slice of the sunshine will be for parts of lincolnshire down towards the south coast of england as well. but we have got a few freezing fog patches and a bit more cloud working in across the far south east of england and there'll be more cloud for northern england, northern ireland and scotland, but a bit of brightness around the north coast here, ten or 11 degrees, but you'll struggle to get more

than about three or four down towards the southeast. so that contrast continues through monday night into tuesday as well. we've still got mild, cloudy and drizzly conditions in the northwest, clearer skies down towards the south. look at that, minus two, minus three, even in the towns and cities. so again, touch of frost and perhaps some freezing fog patches here and there that could be a little bit slow to clear. but there should be some sunshine breaking through on tuesday, particularly through central and southern england, a little bit more cloud into the far southeast. again, add a bit more cloud once again across the northwest of the uk where temperatures are going to reach 11 degrees or so despite a few spots of drizzle, but struggling at around three or four down across southeast england. now moving through tuesday night into wednesday, then high pressure dominating. but we've got this weather frontjust sinking its way a little bit further south. so that's a bit of a change, i think during wednesday. some rain for a time clearing out of scotland and northern ireland, pushing into england and wales, but it should also squeeze some of that milder air a bit further south. so we're still seeing

temperatures only about five degrees for the likes of london and norwich as well. and, actually, it's not going to be any colder to the north of that cold front. there will be some more sunshine around, but things looking mostly dry through thursday and friday. temperatures eventually turning a bit milder in the south, bye—bye.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm mariko 0i. the headlines: reports from california say police have found the body of the main suspect in saturday's mass shooting after they broke into a van. these were the first images released by police of the suspect in the monterey park shooting, which left ten people dead and a further ten injured. this community had been celebrating the lunar new year, full of hope and optimism for the future but like so many other american cities before them, they are now mourning the dead from a horrific act of violence. we'll have the latest on the investigation. also on the programme: