this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. in deep mid—winter, ukraine is taking stock of wartime options. in the short run, kyiv is trying to repel relentless russian attacks around bakhmut in the east. but very soon, other more significant thrusts and counter—thrusts are likely. to prevail, ukraine needs more western weapons, in particular modern battle tanks. but germany remains reluctant

to send in the leopards. well, my guest is ukraine's foreign minister, dmytro kuleba. are ukraine's strategic options being narrowed by wavering amongst western allies? foreign minister dmytro kuleba in kyiv, welcome to hardtalk. it's my pleasure to be with you. it's great to have you back on the show. i'm sure you watched very closely what happened in ramstein, germany, when ukraine's allies met at defence minister level to discuss new weapons supplies to ukraine.

what appears to have emerged is yet more uncertainty, particularly about whether you're going to get tanks. how damaging is that uncertainty? the meeting in ramstein itself was the quintessential moment of weeks of different talks and negotiations and also public appeals, so everything that was not decided in ramstein, including main battle tanks, will be decided within a short term perspective. i'm absolutely confident about that because we continue our work. we hear more and more important messages coming from different capitals, and i have no doubts that we will receive leopards. the only question is when, and now we are focused on making it happen rather sooner than later. but that is my very point, foreign minister. you in ukraine are trying to draw up a coherent strategy, military strategy, for the next few months.

how can you do that when the german defence minister, pistorius, says after ramstein, "we cannot say when a decision on sending the tanks will come and we cannot say what it will look like." well, i think it's an issue of german politics, of how they frame their decisions and when they make it. ourjob is to make them make those decisions sooner, as soon as it is possible. yes, of course, one can feel frustrated about the pace of this decision—making process. but on the other hand, as i said, i have enough indicators to conclude that this decision will be made and this issue will be resolved. i understand that sometimes in capitals, it takes time to make decisions. fine. while they are making decisions, we continue ourfight. and it's true, it's a sad truth,

but i have to say that every day of a protracted discussion in one of the capitals, or in some capitals, means that more ukrainian soldiers will die because of the lack of weapons and more... hang on. that's important. are you saying those deaths are germany's responsibility, that ukrainian blood right now is on german hands? i think it would be unfair to put all the responsibility on berlin and cover their hands with ukrainian blood. germany has done a lot to support us militarily, including with state—of—the—art air defence systems. but it will be fair to say that if germany makes decision on tanks, it will save many lives of ukrainian

soldiers, it will speed up liberation of ukrainian territories and, therefore, also ukrainian civilians living under occupation and suffering from russian presence. just clear up a specific confusion for me, if you would, foreign minister. the polish prime minister said... of this issue of whether germany would authorise poland giving leopard tanks to ukraine, he said, "in the end, consent is of secondary importance. we will either get agreement from berlin quickly or we'll do the right thing ourselves" — ie send you the tanks. now, after the ramstein meeting, the german foreign minister, baerbock, said that germany wasn't standing in the way of poland or other nations asking berlin for permission to send those tanks. so just clear this up for me. do you understand that the poles have asked germany for permission to send the leopards or not? well, the polish—german relationship is a very special case

in today's diplomacy, so i would really leave it to them to sort it out. but i would take this opportunity to do something very important, to appeal to all countries who have leopards and who are willing to share them with ukraine to immediately officially request german government to allow the delivery of these tanks to ukraine. this is the move that will make the whole situation crystal clear and we will see where it takes germany. this is something that needs to be done right away and everything will become obvious. you are putting real pressure on germany with that statement, aren't you? no, i'm very friendly towards german friends, and they have to understand one simple thing — and i appreciate that they do — i represent a country that is fighting a war,

a war for the right of our nation to exist and to continue with our identity and to continue with freedom that we enjoy. so never... never since day one of this war did i ask for anything out of my whims. everything we're asking for is to put the war in the middle of europe to an end as soon as possible with victory of ukraine. and this victory will be also in the interests of germany. one more question on this diplomacy with berlin. it's a blunt question. do you think ukraine has a germany problem right now, in a wider sense, not just about tanks? but you have a germany problem, because chancellor scholz, defence minister pistorius and others, particularly in the spd, part of the government, they have close, long ties with russia. they have established friendships in russia. and that may be a problem for ukraine.

compared to germany we had to deal with prior to 2a february 2022, no, we do not have a problem with germany now. and when you see that the new defence minister, appointed by chancellor scholz, opposed some of the sanctions on russia as recently as 2018 because he said they simply weren't working — and that, of course, is long after the invasion of crimea and parts of eastern ukraine — you still think that you have friends in berlin, do you? that brings me back to my previous answer. i know germany we had to work with before the large scale invasion, germany that was not willing to provide ukraine with any weapons, germany that was drowning in the normandy talks, trying to accommodate some of russian concerns, germany in which many politicians and representatives of the political elite campaign openly against sanctions.

this germany is completely different. a partner and friend, with whom we may have some differences, but we always find a solution. and this is why i'm so confidently saying that i have no doubts we will have a solution to the leopard issue. let's just talk a little bit about the state of the war. now, i'm mindfulthat you're foreign minister, not defence minister, but you watch these things very carefully. many officials in your government are talking about what they see as a massive scaling up of russia's military operations over the next few weeks and months. you've got defence officials saying that they believe the russian military will go up to 1.5 million mobilized personnel. can ukraine live with this relentless scaling up of russia's war effort? well, it's a good question, but a more precise question

would be, "how far can russia go in scaling up?" we believe that what is happening now is the last attempt of russia to bring the situation in its favour, to change the situation in its favour on the battleground. russia has its own limits. and this is why it is so important to provide ukraine with all necessary weapons now, so that we stop their offensive and we show them clearly that it's not going to fly and they will not... they are not going to win this war. but you don't... with respect, you don't know where russia's limits are. and if one listens to vladimir putin, it seems the limits are beyond anybody�*s imagination. they are clearing their prisons to give prigozhin more personnel in his wagner group, they are talking about mobilizing hundreds of thousands of new recruits to send to the front, they are talking about possibly opening up fronts to the north, through belarus. they are already claiming

a new offensive around zaporizhzhia. i'm just getting to this point about whether ukraine can defend itself and consider offensive operations on such a scale. ukraine can — this is a short answer to your question — for two reasons. first, because we have no other choice. and second, because we are fighting a just war against the aggressor and the people of ukraine understand it. it's not going to be easy. it's going to be tough. no—one can promise an easy ride for the next months. and our enemy has learned the lessons of its failed offensive in february and march 2022, but we also learned our lessons. yes, russia is scaling up the war and the entire world should be ready for that. it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be localised. but we are now preparing to deter

them and to defeat them and we are confident that we can do it. on one specific point, what is your message to belarus? should they be considering letting russia launch a new offensive from belarus's territory? my message to belarus is clear — stay away from ukraine. do not follow mistakes of president putin. and if they do not, is it possible to imagine a ukrainian offensive going into belarus territory? well, first, if they cross into ukrainian territory, many belarusians will die because our soldiers will be killing invaders irrespective of their nationality and passports. and we know how the people of belarus hate the idea of fighting the war against ukraine and dying for the sake of russian interests. i think the entry of russian of belarusian soldiers into ukraine

will create unimaginable problems for president lukashenko. ukraine doesn't provoke him. we watch our border closely, and our advice to them is just "mind your own business and stay out of ukraine." now, as a diplomat, you constantly have to monitor the chain of support that ukraine has built, particularly in the western world, and you have to look for weaknesses. one very obvious weakness right now is hungary. you're foreign minister. how are you trying to fix your hungary problem? oh, that's a rather philosophical question, how to fix hungary's problem. i think that first and foremost, hungary is an eu problem because hungary simply takes ukraine as a hostage in its attempts to solve problems it has with the european commission. and i think that this problem,

the issue of hungary, can be solved through unity, through unity with the rest of the european union and those countries who understand that ukraine is fighting not only for itself but also for europe as as a whole. and hungary should also be reminded of the fact that the worst nightmare for budapest is to have russia as a direct neighbour, so budapest should be genuinely interested in the success of ukraine. right, butjust to remind people, i mean, hungary right now is threatening to block economic aid — eu economic aid to ukraine — if it doesn't get things it wants from the european union. they're also demanding that the eu lift specific targeted sanctions on a host of key individuals, so—called oligarchs, including usmanov and a few others as well. is there any possibility, do you think, of zelensky, your president, trying to reach out to viktor orban?

we know orban has regarded zelensky as something of a political enemy in the past. are you trying to heal those wounds or not? hungary is making a historic mistake by trying to help some russian oligarchs, the head of the russian orthodox church and some russian officials to avoid sanction. in the moment of historic magnitude, you know, you have to be on the right side of history. and second, since president zelensky took his office, he did not inflict any single wound on prime minister orban, so we do not feel as if we did something bad that we have to heal towards him. we appreciate only equal and mutually respected relations, and this is what we are ready to pursue with hungary. everything else is just a political game hungarian leadership is playing. if i were to look for

another weak link — or potential weak link — in ukraine's web of support in the west, it would might be looking at the republican party in the united states, particularly at the so—called sort of trump wing of the republican party. and let us not forget that, now, the republican party controls the house of representatives, so it has congressional power. are you, as foreign minister, worried about what that might mean for long term us military and economic support to kyiv? i think it will not diminish the bipartisan, the overall bipartisan support that ukraine enjoys in both democratic and republican camps. yes, there will be more voices coming from the republican party which may sound irritating or disturbing to some, but i'm sure that in the end, both democrats and republicans will remain united around the issue of ukraine.

well, i don't know how you can be so sure. another senior republican, steve scalise, is saying, "obviously there is a deep concern that the money is going to places other than those intended." he's worried about corruption in your country and the misuse of us taxpayers�* money. these are real problems for you. these are exactly the voices that i mentioned, and there will be more of statements like this, but in the end, i'm sure that we will continue to enjoy the support across the board — i mean both democrats and republicans. and everyone in the united states who is making such groundless statements is always welcome to come to ukraine to see everything with his or her own eyes and to assess the situation and to see how efficient and how transparent ukraine is in using support it is given.

but how can you say "groundless", foreign minister, when we know that ukraine still struggles with endemic corruption? in the last couple of days, we've had a deputy minister — he's responsible for communities and infrastructure — arrested on suspicion of taking a $400,000 bribe. we've had allegations in the ukrainian press about defence procurement being riddled with corruption, where foodstuffs, for example — basic foodstuffs for military personnel — are being overpriced so people can cream off a profit. these are allegations that are coming from within ukraine which suggest you haven't fixed the corruption problem. with all respect, stephen, i think the word "endemic" is an overstatement. as any other country in the world, yes, we have cases of corruption, but i remember ukraine many years ago when officials would be turning a blind eye to corruption cases and would continue serving.

now we are in a completely different ukraine, and the deputy minister that you mentioned was immediately fired by the government from his position. law enforcement agencies have full freedom and autonomy in prosecuting him and making his case in the court. minister of defence, i'm sure — if this information revealed by a journalist will be proven — of course, relevant officials will also be fired. we have no tolerance to corruption. it's absolutely, absolutely clear. and our deeds support our words. thing is, you've got to get this right, because the european union, which is going to be a key player when the reconstruction of ukraine begins — and, you know, it's going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars — the european union is looking at this very closely. the former estonian

president kersti kaljulaid, who is a great friend of ukraine, she said just last month, "the continuation of reconstruction aid beyond the basic humanitarian disaster elimination mission has to be dependent on ukraine's continued institutional development." so that means zelensky has to deliver on good governance. is he capable of doing that? i think president zelensky has delivered better than any other leader in the world on the issue of governance, when he managed to keep the country running and properly governed under the enormous and unbelievable in scale russian aggression. trust me, president zelensky is capable of doing everything else that relates to governance. and i can tell you openly that if anyone has a fact of mismanagement of financial aid

or military aid coming from the united states, the european union or anywhere else in the world, we will immediately react to these facts, they will be immediately investigated and those responsible will be severely punished. we fully understand what is at stake here. and... just quickly, then, in that context of you giving those promises and those pledges, the imf reckoned a few months ago that ukraine needed between $3—5 billion a month to keep its economy afloat during this terrible time of war. are you getting the support you need, yes or no? not in full amount. which means your economy, over time, is going to collapse? no, no. listen, you remind me of the highly reputed generals and experts

who promised that ukraine would collapse in maximum ten days after the russian invasion begins. no, we're not going to collapse. what we need is just to continue adapting our economy to the war reality. but what we need even more is more weapons to defeat the enemy, expel them from ukraine, win the war and restore normal life of the country, including the normal running of the economy of ukraine. a final thought, then — because, again, you're foreign minister. why are you not winning the diplomatic war, when it comes to huge numbers of governments and peoples around the world who are notjoining the western—led effort to give ukraine massive economic and military assistance? i'm thinking of china, india, brazil, south africa. in all of those countries and many more, there's a demand that you guys make peace immediately and there is a resistance to blaming russia for this war. why is that?

all the countries that you mentioned belong to the community of states called brics, and the letter r in this "brics" speaks for russia. this is a community that was formed many years ago to create an alternative to g7, to which the united kingdom, united states and other countries belong, so you should seek the roots of this position in the history of political alignment of these countries. you suggest to me, then, that the world is polarising over this war. is that the way you see it? ithink... i don't think the world is polarising. i think that while one part of the world actively supports ukraine in its struggle against russian aggression, another part of the world is sitting and waiting to see who is going to prevail in the end.

and they will have no problems if ukraine prevails, but while they're sitting and waiting, they make statements which are relevant for their long—standing political traditions. foreign minister dmytro kuleba, i thank you so much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello. i'm about to show you two weather watcher images of some very nice—looking afternoon sunshine today, both of them from weather watchers named emma — one emma in sunny aboyne in aberdeenshire, another emma in pontypridd in the rhondda. two quite similar—looking afternoons

but feeling very different. we started the day with a hard frost across england and wales, and through the afternoon, temperatures slowly climbed up into the lower end of single figures. we started the day with double figures across scotland and northern ireland and we stayed that way into the afternoon. atlantic air to the north of the uk, arctic air, which has come via the continent, further south. and overnight tonight, where we continue with some clear skies across quite a slice of the south—west, the midlands, into east anglia, we will see a hard frost developing yet again. a bit more cloud coming in to the far south mayjust protect some south—eastern counties. mildest, though, will be scotland and northern ireland, where it stays cloudy, and we continue to bring the air in from the atlantic on that south—westerly breeze. this finger of high pressure extends across england and wales through the night, and where we have clear skies, the high pressure will mean light winds. and all of the moisture still hanging around from the recent rainfall could set us up for patches of freezing fog, potentially

across parts of the midlands, through into the welsh marches and maybe some for east anglia. not exclusively, but these are the spots most likely to see that developing. further south, a little bit more cloud around. that will stick through the day on tuesday, adding to the chilly feel. where we get some sunshine after a frosty start, we could see highs of five or six. if the fog sticks, we'll be lucky to get above freezing. further north again, though, double figures — 10 or 12 degrees. tuesday into wednesday, we start to see some movement, that finger of high pressure to the south breaking down and a weather front sliding in from the north. now, what that will actually do, even though it's introducing north—westerly winds, is pull milder air south across the uk, squeezing away that cold arctic air that's sitting to the south. temperatures come down a shade across scotland but actually lift across england and wales through the day. some southern—most counties may not get the milder air until quite late in the day, however, but relatively milder to the south of the uk for the end of this week.

about average temperatures for all of us.

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