afghanistan is facing its coldest winter in a decade and more than 120 people have died due to freezing temperatures. the extreme cold comes as the country endures a humanitarian crisis in the wake of the taliban seizing power in 2021. germany appears to be on the verge of supplying ukraine with leopard 2 tanks. reports from berlin suggest the chancellor, olaf scholz, has bowed to intense pressure to approve the exports. other countries could also be allowed to re—export their german made tanks. lawyers for the former us vice president mike pence have revealed that a small number of classified documents were found at his home last week. the papers have been handed over to the fbi. investigators are already looking at the handling of such documents by president biden and donald trump.

now on bbc news it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. venezuela's authoritarian leader, nicolas maduro, has, for the moment, outmanoeuvred those forces inside and outside the country intent on his removal. last month, the opposition gave up on their own alternative president and indicated a willingness to negotiate with maduro. in the us, in latin america and in europe, they seem ready to engage with the caracas regime, not least because oil supplies are at a premium. my guest is leopoldo lopez, long—time venezuelan opposition leader and former political prisoner, now in exile in spain. is it time for him to acknowledge failure?

leopoldo lopez in madrid, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you for the opportunity. it's great to have you on the show. back in 2019, your big idea as a key leader of the venezuelan opposition was to undermine socialist president nicolas maduro by creating an alternative president and an alternative government. would you now acknowledge that big idea has failed? well, certainly, we were not able to remove the dictatorship.

and if we are measured by that standard, certainly, we didn't get to the results we expected. but it's also true for any other alternative that we've tried for over 20 years. we've tried voting. we won the national assembly with two—thirds of the vote, and the dictatorship also dismantled the possibility of the national assembly to exercise its constitutional powers. we've tried by protesting. we've protested with hundreds of thousands of people throughout the years, and we've also failed to remove the dictatorship in that way. and we've tried negotiations for over 20 years as well, with the help of the vatican, with the help of ex—presidents, with the help of the oas, now with the help of norway. and we've also failed to remove the dictatorship during those negotiations. so the reality is that we are facing a very strong dictatorship that, for many, many years was understood by the international community as a failing democracy

and not as a strong dictatorship as it has become. let me let me stop you right there, because we've spoken before, and in the past, you've always tried to persuade me that actually nicolas maduro and his government were fragile, that the venezuelan people were not with them, and that just with enough of a push from the venezuelan opposition, maduro would be gone. it seems you've changed your mind. you're now describing this very strong dictatorship. well, in fact, i believe that the venezuelan people do want maduro to be out of power. i believe that eight out of ten venezuelans want maduro out of power. eight out of ten venezuelans despise maduro. today, we are living under the largest humanitarian and migration crisis in the planet. let me rephrase this. venezuela has today the largest migration crisis in the planet. according to the un, 7.1 million venezuelans of a population of 30 million have fled our country looking for opportunities. so venezuelans want change.

and we did underestimate notjust the power of maduro, but also, the international support that maduro has gotten. we have received international support from the us, from europe, from other countries, mostly in diplomatic support, in political support. however, maduro has the support of china, of russia, of iran, of turkey, of belarus, of cuba in ways that are not comparable to the type of support that we have. well, we'll get to the international situation and diplomacy in just a second. but let's just stick with what's happening inside venezuela. you're popular will party, and let's remind ourselves that you, in a sense, were the mentor tojuan guaido, who, back in 2019, was declared by the national assembly as the interim president of venezuela by the opposition movement. you were a key player in that, but i'm just wondering how disappointed you were at the end of last year,

december 2022, when a clear majority of that self—same national assembly decided that the experiment with guaido hadn't worked. they basically said guaido�*s finished and it's time to negotiate with maduro. did you personally feel betrayed by that decision? yes, i believe it was a very unfortunate decision. it was unconstitutional. and we gave a strong hope that there was no need to give the legal representation, international recognition and the capacity to continue from that trench the fight towards freedom in our country. but this is the way things work with the legitimacy... so you did feel betrayed. and would you, leopoldo lopez, key leader of the opposition, now acknowledge that the national assembly moved against you and your big idea because of missteps and failings that you and juan guaido have made in recent years? you know, the efforts you made

to launch chaotic coups against maduro, in trying to use former american service people to further your efforts at a coup, a disaster, a fiasco. also, the way that you and others have tried to run some of venezuela's external assets, including, for example, a fertiliser company in colombia, which is now shrouded in allegations of corruption. to the venezuelan people and the outside world, you appear to have failed to be credible. well, in fact, there has been mistakes, as you very well mentioned. i want to make very clear that the one case that you mentioned as i stated last time we spoke, we had absolutely nothing to do with the group of mercenaries that came to venezuela in 2020. this is something that came up in our last interview, and i want to reiterate that — guaido, myself or our party had nothing to do with that. with respect to the management of assets, there are different approaches to that. we were able,

guaido was able to safeguard one of the largest assets that venezuela has, citgo refinery with absolute transparency, efficiency. and now, unfortunately, that asset is in a very fragile legal situation that might be lost precisely because of the dismantling of the interim government. there were mistakes, of course, stephen, there were mistakes. but there were no mistakes of intention. what i mean is that... but good intentions also need wise political instincts and actions. and i'm going to quote to you a writer who specialises in venezuela, william neuman in the atlantic magazine. just a few days ago, he wrote this — that, "juan guaido and leopoldo lopez continued to alienate "other groups in the venezuelan opposition. "acting unilaterally, heavy—handedly, "they lurched from mistake to mistake, "finally leaving the opposition base disillusioned." is this the end of the road for you

as a leader of the opposition? no, it's not the end of the road for the venezuelan people and the hopes of the venezuelan people to continue to struggle for freedom. and there is a very clear path forward, and that path forward that there is an agreement among all of the disagreements that we have, because there is a lot of noise. of course there is. but the commitment that we have is that we need to engage the compromise to go to the 2024 presidential elections with a single candidate elected by primaries. so our main focus and what we are asking the international community, what we are asking all of the venezuelan people is to engage in a process to build the unity of all the democratic sectors in venezuela through the people, not through an agreement from above, but through the people in a process of primaries that will call to the engagement of millions of venezuelans in venezuela and outside venezuela to have a strong candidacy. and whoever wins the primaries will have the possibility to defeat maduro in 202a.

if we don't rebuild the unity of the venezuelan people through the people using the participation of all of the venezuelans to partake in that decision, it will be impossible to defeat maduro in an election. and you just mentioned the importance of the international community and the pressure they can apply. isn't the truth that the most important single member of the international community when it comes to venezuela policy is the united states? you love the fact that donald trump was determined to put "maximum pressure" on maduro and his government. but now, things are very different. joe biden is, frankly, a pragmatist. he sees the opportunities to get some oil, some possibly very important supplies of oil from venezuela. and he's already allowed the oil company chevron to sign a six—month contract to start doing business again with venezuela. the tide has turned and not in a way that helps you.

i believe that it's very gullible to think that maduro can be a reliable source of energy. i think that's the same mistake that germany and europe made when they became dependent on russian gas. and now we are seeing the consequences. maduro will never be a reliable source of anything, much less of energy, and much less when he is a partner of putin and of iran, which are enemies, declared enemies, of the interests of the united states. so i don't think that that's a path toward stability. you may not like it, but in the context of the ukraine war, context of a global energy supply crunch, the fact is venezuela, which by some measures, has the biggest oil reserves in the world, is a key strategic player. the united states, the europeans, and look at what spain is doing, already talking about new energy supplies from venezuela. the reality is all of these countries that you want on your side are now looking

at maduro and thinking, here's a guy that we maybe have to do business with. yeah, and i think that's unfortunate, stephen. and i think that's putting profits and oil before democracy and freedom. and i think that's hypocritical at many times. i believe that the west, i believe that democracies, i believe that the free world needs to engage with determination against autocratic regimes, and thinking that there are some good dictators just because they have oil and that they can supply some stability of oil that they won't, because maduro won't do that, is something that in the long term will be against the interests of the united states and the free world. that's why, in our view, as venezuelans, of course, but also as a believer of democracy worldwide, we need to engage in pushing towards the democratisation of venezuela as the main priority or, i believe, should be the main priority of the united states and europe. of course, we all know... just on the diplomacy here, do you think, in all honesty, you made a mistake cosying up

too much to donald trump and to friends of yours in the us senate like republican marco rubio? in retrospect, was that a mistake? no, it was not a mistake to work with all of the parties in the united states. we delivered a policy and we articulated a policy that was bipartisan. one of the main supporters ofjuan guaido�*s interim government and of our cause is bob menendez, the head of the foreign affairs committee of the us senate, a democrat, and he worked closely with marco rubio and other senators. we were very determined to always keep our policy in a bipartisan perspective and we will continue to do that. we never fell for the trap of going into internal politics in the us, or in europe, for that matter. we go out to every free world, to every congress, to every parliament. we want to talk to the socialists, to the conservatives, to everybody, to engage in our struggle for freedom. right. i mean, i talked about the political tide turning against you. it's notjust

in the united states. look at latin america. you know, you've lost the support of key allies in the recent past. we could talk about neighbouring colombia, which is hugely important to venezuela, where the government now is engaging with maduro, has opened the border, cooperating with maduro. look at mexico, look at peru. look at the election of lula in brazil. these are all now governments that do not want to isolate venezuela. they want to reach out to venezuela and renew a dialogue. again, the tide is against you. yes. and we believe that dialogue is something that we need to continue to push. and we have been doing that. juan guaido started the conversations injanuary of 2019 in a secret way at the beginning, and then they became public. but it was his determination at the very beginning of his interim presidency to reach out to the norwegians, to start that process. we have always been willing to engage in negotiations. this is not new. and i read some statements by analysts saying that now is the time for negotiation.

we have been engaged in negotiations for 20 years with all of the support. i don't think that there is a case with more participation of external support for negotiations and the case of venezuela. but the results are there. maduro has always used, and chavez before him, always used negotiations to their benefit. so what we need is a very true and clear commitment not to profit, not to oil, not to the interests of external interests, but to the interests of democratising venezuela. that's what we expect from the international community. and i believe that that's something very reasonable that we are asking. and, yes, stephen, it's tough. yes, we continue to have maduro as a criminal dictator that has crushed and crumbled our country. but our commitment, all of us, it needs to be to continue to struggle for freedom and to continue to be optimistic that we will see a free venezuela, hopefully sooner than later. what is not an option

for us is rendition. just a few moments ago, mr lopez, you talked with great passion about the suffering of the venezuelan people and the fact that 7 million have fled the country because of the economic catastrophe that has faced them. one of the easiest things you could do right now would be to say to the united states, to the europeans, and others who've imposed harsh sanctions on the maduro regime, that in the interests of the humanitarian situation, the time is now right to ease and lift those sanctions. are you ready to do that? well, it's already happened that the unified platform that is negotiating with the support of the norwegians, there was an agreement for a social fund that will take some of the funds that were seized that need to be notjust identified but put to the disposal of the un in order to commit to humanitarian programmes. and we are supporting that.

we believe that that is important. however, the only way that maduro will be willing to negotiate is through sanctions, and the only real alternative for imposing pressure is through sanctions. and there is this dichotomy that you just mentioned that, you know, the maximum pressure didn't work. well, minimum pressure hasn't work. you've suffered a lot for your political position. you were a political prisoner for years. you were in solitary confinement. but also, it has to be said, you are a member, you know, of the venezuelan elite. you managed to escape the country. you live in madrid. and i dare say, you know, life's not, on the most literal level, too uncomfortable for you. whereas for millions of venezuelans right now inside the country, they are literally going hungry. their health care system is broken. it would make a huge difference to them if sanctions were lifted immediately. and maybe the opposition isn't really winning any support amongst many ordinary venezuelans now with this insistence that

sanctions must continue. well, i think that's not understanding, stephen, with all due respect, the origin of the crisis. the origin of the crisis was not sanctions. the migration crisis, the economic crisis, the humanitarian crisis started way before the imposition of sanctions. so the reality is that maduro is a criminal, he's a crook, he's corrupt. and all of the administration of a hitherto very wealthy country — we were producing 3.7 million barrels of oil 20 years ago, now we're producing less than 500,000 barrels of oil per day. venezuela is no longer an oil economy, and that's all because of the corruption of maduro, not because of the sanctions. sanctions are a means to an end, and they need to be put in the table for negotiation. and as the united states has been very, very clear, and we hope they commit to what they have been saying

publicly, is that sanctions will be lifted if, and only if, there is meaningful progress towards the democratisation of venezuela. so, in brief, you're saying sanctions can only be lifted if maduro commits to a free and fair election for the presidency in 202a? what would represent a free and fair election? for example, do you insist that you be allowed back into venezuela, freed from all legal charges and allowed to run in that election? no, i have said very clearly that i have no intention to participate as a candidate in the primaries or in the election. i have said very clearly that i understand my position in exile. i'm in exile, and my position now is to support the people who are in venezuela, juan guaido and others, who are in venezuela. i believe that the front line for the freedom of venezuela is in venezuelan territory. but that also needs to take into consideration the millions of venezuelans that are outside that can also support. do you seriously think juan guaido, after everything that's happened and the fact that he's essentially been fired by his own national assembly from the interim presidency post that he

claimed, is he a serious contender against maduro in 202a? well, he's certainly one of the contenders that could be there. but my point, stephen, precisely, is that the people of venezuela should decide that. not you, not me, not anybody. it should be the people of venezuela through a process of primaries. and whoever wins, it doesn't matter who wins, should get the support of all of the rest of the parties and the venezuelan people. and that's the only window of opportunity that we have to have a mobilisation to inject enthusiasm and the possibility to go united towards an election in 2024. that's the only possibility that we have. you mentioned colombia, you mentioned brazil, you mentioned mexico, you mentioned argentina. well, all those are

leftist governments, but they were elected. and what we are asking those governments is the same opportunity that they had to give their people the possibility to choose their way forward. we don't have that luxury in venezuela. we don't have free and fair elections. so you ask me what do you need... i understand, leopoldo lopez, that it always, in the end, for you it comes back to democracy. and i am very interested to note that in the last few weeks you have been working with a series of international pro—democracy activists trying to establish a network, a worldwide network of democratic activists who are sharing knowledge about confronting authoritarian regimes. ijust wonder, given everything we've talked about, and let's face it, the fact that you haven't managed to deliver democratisation in venezuela, certainly not in the way that you'd hoped, what can you teach democratic activists in russia, iran and elsewhere? it's not about teaching anybody.

it's about sharing, because none of this — there has been no transition to democracy over the past 20 yea rs. in fact, there is a rise in autocratic regimes over the past 15 to 20 years, and there is a democratic recession. there has been no transitions either by voting or by protest towards democracy. there are very, very few exceptions. and the ones that have made it like tunisia, egypt or bolivia, in short term afterwards they reverted towards autocratic regimes. what are pro—democracy activists getting wrong, in your view? i think that the autocrats are getting right the hold to power, notjust democratic movements getting something wrong. i think autocrats are learning from each other. they are using repression. they are manipulating media. they are manipulating the social control mechanisms. they are imprisoning. there is a growing pandemic of political prisoners in the world that is coming undermined by the public opinion, and that is

something that we all share. for me, stephen, it has been a very growing experience to meet people from africa, asia, latin america, eastern europe that we couldn't be more different with skin colour, religion, history. but when we talk about our struggle for freedom it's exactly the same story, it's exactly the same reality, and that's why we are coming together. we had the launching of what we call the world liberty congress last year in november. we held it in lithuania because we wanted to do it in the border with russia. and we had 180 leaders from 44 countries. and now we're putting together this liberty congress as an action—oriented alliance that will help the movements to promote grassroots activism. we're almost out of time, so this is the last question. when you meet these other democracy activists in countries where the situation is, like in venezuela, extremely difficult, do you leave these meetings very downhearted? because as you've just said

to me, the autocrats seem to have the answers. they control the media, they control the security apparatus, they are prepared to use violence if necessary. i'm just not hearing any solutions from the democracy side of the argument. no, i appreciate very much your question, because that's basically our main challenge. our main challenge is not to surrender. it's not to kneel to the pessimism, because many times when people go — these are very difficult circumstances, they only focus to tell the bad story, to tell the sad story of what's happening in our own countries. and what we are trying to do with this alliance is to be hopeful, is to look forward, is to learn from each other, is to figure out ways in which we can be more creative, to learn from our mistakes, to learn from the mistakes and the capacities that have been built elsewhere. and there is a lot to do. what we will not do is to surrender. we will never surrender to our dream to have a free venezuela and to have our free world. and we understand that this challenge that we have is not

just facing maduro. we're not only facing maduro, we're facing xijinping, we're facing putin, we're facing the mullahs of iran. we're facing an autocratic trend that wants to expand all over the world. it's a daring challenge, of course it is. but we're willing to take it on. leopoldo lopez, we have to end there, but thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much. tuesday brought some huge temperature contrasts across the uk. it was —9 in 0xfordshire in the morning and then 16 degrees in the afternoon in aberdeen.

but i think over the next few days, the temperatures will balance out a little bit more — it'll be closer to the seasonal norm. we'll also lose the frosts in the south of the country where, recently, it has been very cold, and here's an example in the south of the uk. those temperatures won't be quite so low overnight as we head into next week. ok, let's get into the forecast, then. here's wednesday's weather map, and a cold front is moving in the morning across northern parts of the uk through scotland and northern ireland. little bits and pieces of rain and murky conditions further south as well. there will be a touch of frost first thing anywhere from east anglia through the southeast down towards the west country, but the vast majority of us will have temperatures above freezing first thing. also the possibility of some mist and fog in the midlands, west country, possibly east anglia as well for a time. so, let's have a look at the forecast, then, for wednesday. here's that weather front as it moves from the north southwards, perhaps reaching northern wales, the peak district, early in the afternoon — lincolnshire, too. behind it, the skies actually clear, so some sunshine

later in the day for belfastjust before sunset. belfast, glasgow, ten degrees here. then notice that weather front sinks southwards and there will be some rain towards the rush hour, i think, in the south of the country, and then eventually clearing the kent coast late wednesday evening. thursday, we've got an area of high pressure building across the uk nosing in, and that spells a lot of sunny weather — it really is going to be a fine day for many of us on thursday. a little on the cool side, i think, on the north sea coast, so with that northerly breeze, perhaps one or two showers, i think beautiful weather out towards the west and those temperatures close to the norm for the time of the year — around nine in belfast, not far off that elsewhere across the country. then the outlook as we head into the weekend, you can see temperatures actually recovering to around double figures as we head towards sunday, and we're talking about generally dry weather. that's it from me, bye—bye. then the outlook as we head into the weekend, you can see temperatures actually recovering to around double figures as we head towards sunday, and we're talking about generally dry weather. that's it from me, bye—bye.

this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock with

the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world.