this is bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak and these are the headlines. police in israel say that a 13—year—old palestinian has carried out a shooting attack outside the old city injerusalem in which two people, a father and son, were seriously wounded. the teenage attacker was shot and injured. graphic footage is released showing the moment tyre nichols was arrested and beaten by five police officers in the us city of memphis. president biden described the video as "horrific". british regional airline flybe ceases trading for a second time, cancelling all flights to and from the uk after going

into administration. hundreds of staff have been made redundant you're watching bbc news. now it's time for the media show. hello. with the conservative chairman nadhim zahawi's tax affairs dominating the headlines, we will be talking to two of the people behind the story. and later in the programme, netflix films have picked up programme, netflix films have picked up a load of oscar nominations. closer to home, the streamer has just bought its first welsh language tv drama. llinos—griffin—williams from sac is one of the people involved in the deal. congratulations, what is the show called and what it is about? it is

called and what it is about? it is called and what it is about? it is called dal y _ called and what it is about? it is called daly mellt, _ called and what it is about? it is called dal y mellt, it _ called and what it is about? it 3 called dal y mellt, it has been produced by rocks pictures, it has got mark lewisjones in it and it is a cheeky heist, based on the adaptation of a novel by ewan roberts, who also wrote the script, so it is a crime drama, but with a bit of a twist. so it is a crime drama, but with a bit of a twist-— so it is a crime drama, but with a bit of a twist. sounds great, and we will hear much _ bit of a twist. sounds great, and we will hear much more _ bit of a twist. sounds great, and we will hear much more about - bit of a twist. sounds great, and we will hear much more about it - bit of a twist. sounds great, and we will hear much more about it later. | will hear much more about it later. but first, if you were watching prime minister's questions on wednesday, there was more pressure on nadhim zahawi before the chancellor and current chairman of the conservative party over his tax affairs. last friday the guardian broke the story that mr zahawi has paid a penalty imposed by hmrc as part of an estimated £5 tax bill, something the prime minister said on wednesday he didn't know at the time when he made nadhim zahawi tory chairman. this story has come out into the open thanks to the work of journalists and tax investigators, and two of them are with us today. and isaac, the city editor of the guardian, wrote the story last week about the penalty, and dan is a

former city tax lawyer who now has his own consultancy tax policy associates. welcome to both of you. dan you are not a journalist but you have been blogging and publishing stories about nadhim zahawi since last summer, take us back to where you started following the story? i retired to set up a micro think—tank, tax policy associates, and people — think—tank, tax policy associates, and people were asking me to look at this politician, that politician, they— this politician, that politician, they thought they had avoided tax, and i_ they thought they had avoided tax, and i did, _ they thought they had avoided tax, and i did, and mostly it was rubbish, _ and i did, and mostly it was rubbish, there was something about sooner_ rubbish, there was something about sooner on_ rubbish, there was something about sooner on channel a saying he had avoided _ sooner on channel a saying he had avoided tax, rees—mogg, rubbish, and i said avoided tax, rees—mogg, rubbish, and i said that _ avoided tax, rees—mogg, rubbish, and i said that. and thenjust really to be mischievous, jim picard at the ft and i_ be mischievous, jim picard at the ft and i launched a freedom of information act request to see if any ministers had been the subject of hmrc_ any ministers had been the subject of hmrc inquiries, and to my surprise, _ of hmrc inquiries, and to my surprise, shock, even, they came back_ surprise, shock, even, they came backand— surprise, shock, even, they came back and said yes, between one and five had, _ back and said yes, between one and five had, and we said, really, are you sure? — five had, and we said, really, are you sure? they said, yes, we are sure _ you sure? they said, yes, we are sure and — you sure? they said, yes, we are sure. and then there was something of a panic— sure. and then there was something

of a panic inside whitehall, i believe. _ of a panic inside whitehall, i believe, at this, and then we got a correction— believe, at this, and then we got a correction from hmrc saying, sorry, that was— correction from hmrc saying, sorry, that was a _ correction from hmrc saying, sorry, that was a mistake, our bad, actually— that was a mistake, our bad, actually there are no ministers under— actually there are no ministers under inquiry. which made... you hardly— under inquiry. which made... you hardly have — under inquiry. which made... you hardly have to be bernstein and woodward for your antennae to twin at that _ woodward for your antennae to twin at that. then there was that amazing story in_ at that. then there was that amazing story in the _ at that. then there was that amazing story in the independent claiming that nadhim zahawi had been under investigation at one point by hmrc, apparently they had found nothing, he denied — apparently they had found nothing, he denied it, but i am familiar with those _ he denied it, but i am familiar with those investigations, normally the sobject— those investigations, normally the subject does not know they are being investigated. so what i then did is kind of— investigated. so what i then did is kind of what my dayjob was when i was a _ kind of what my dayjob was when i was a tax _ kind of what my dayjob was when i was a tax lawyer, people think tax lawyers _ was a tax lawyer, people think tax lawyers are — was a tax lawyer, people think tax lawyers are dreaming up tax avoidance schemes, not in the last 20 years. — avoidance schemes, not in the last 20 years, usually it is much less glamorous _ 20 years, usually it is much less glamorous. you have got a client who is taking _ glamorous. you have got a client who is taking up— glamorous. you have got a client who is taking up taking over a company, what _ is taking up taking over a company, what other— is taking up taking over a company, what other tax skeletons are in the closet _ what other tax skeletons are in the closet of— what other tax skeletons are in the closet of that company? because if you buy— closet of that company? because if you buy it— closet of that company? because if you buy it and it finds out yet they did bad _

you buy it and it finds out yet they did bad tax— you buy it and it finds out yet they did bad tax stuff, that is going to cost you. — did bad tax stuff, that is going to cost you, the buyer, money. so entireiy— cost you, the buyer, money. so entirely selfish capitalism incentives drive companies acquiring other— incentives drive companies acquiring other companies and the tax lawyers working _ other companies and the tax lawyers working for— other companies and the tax lawyers working for them to try and uncover tax problems, so for me to do that on tax problems, so for me to do that oh zahawi's— tax problems, so for me to do that on zahawi's companies was not really any different from what i had been doing _ any different from what i had been doing for— any different from what i had been doing for many years as a tax iawyer~ — doing for many years as a tax la er. �* , . , doing for many years as a tax la er. �* , ., , ., , doing for many years as a tax la er. ,, doing for many years as a tax la er. , , ., lawyer. and this was last summer and ou lawyer. and this was last summer and you mentioned _ lawyer. and this was last summer and you mentioned the _ lawyer. and this was last summer and you mentioned the independent - lawyer. and this was last summer and you mentioned the independent and l lawyer. and this was last summer and you mentioned the independent and i | you mentioned the independent and i should bring in an isaac who is now at the guardian but talk to me about when you got involved in this story, because you were at the independent at that point?— at that point? that's right, in early july _ at that point? that's right, in earlyjuly last _ at that point? that's right, in early july last year _ at that point? that's right, in early july last year i - at that point? that's right, in early july last year i worked l at that point? that's right, in i early july last year i worked with earlyjuly last year i worked with simon waters, who has been a long—standing lobby reporter who was working freelance for the independent at that stage on the story about hmrc investigation into zahawi and that was july last year, and that started to feed into a buzz around his financial affairs. i should add that lots of people have

asked and done various reports over the years, going back even a decade, to ask a few questions about where mr zahawi's wealth comes from, he has been a very successful person, by all accounts, has a lot of money, people have naturally taken an interest in public interest examinations of that money, but that was when we heard about this hmrc investigation for the first time. that piqued your interest and you started looking up, looking at it, how much pickup at that time was there in the wider press about the story, dan? there in the wider press about the story. dan?— there in the wider press about the sto , dan? , ., , story, dan? so, my initialfindings, let's call it— story, dan? so, my initialfindings, let's call it a _ story, dan? so, my initialfindings, let's call it a tax _ story, dan? so, my initialfindings, let's call it a tax anomaly, - story, dan? so, my initialfindings, let's call it a tax anomaly, it - let's call it a tax anomaly, it looked — let's call it a tax anomaly, it looked to— let's call it a tax anomaly, it looked to me like a naive attempt at tax avoidance, a very experienced former— tax avoidance, a very experienced former hmrc inspector said it looked like a _ former hmrc inspector said it looked like a ntan— former hmrc inspector said it looked like a man in the pub tax avoidance, which _ like a man in the pub tax avoidance, which doesn't work, and that is what i which doesn't work, and that is what i thought _ which doesn't work, and that is what i thought. tax which doesn't work, and that is what ithou:ht. ., ., ., ., . which doesn't work, and that is what ithouuht. ., ., ., ., . ,�* i thought. tax avoidance isn't ille . al? i thought. tax avoidance isn't illegal? tax— i thought. tax avoidance isn't illegal? tax avoidance - i thought. tax avoidance isn't illegal? tax avoidance is - i thought. tax avoidance isn't illegal? tax avoidance is notl illegal? tax avoidance is not necessarily _ illegal? tax avoidance is not

necessarily illegal, - illegal? tax avoidance is not necessarily illegal, that - illegal? tax avoidance is not necessarily illegal, that is i necessarily illegal, that is correct _ necessarily illegal, that is correct. it looked to me like someone _ correct. it looked to me like someone had done something thinking tax would _ someone had done something thinking tax would be avoided but actually i was really — tax would be avoided but actually i was really confident it would not be avoided, _ was really confident it would not be avoided, so — was really confident it would not be avoided, so when the yougov shares ended _ avoided, so when the yougov shares ended up— avoided, so when the yougov shares ended up being sold, yielding perhaps— ended up being sold, yielding perhaps £27 million, or even more, i wondered _ perhaps £27 million, or even more, i wondered if— perhaps £27 million, or even more, i wondered if mr zahawi had paid tax on that— wondered if mr zahawi had paid tax on that or— wondered if mr zahawi had paid tax on that or if— wondered if mr zahawi had paid tax on that or if he had assumed his old scheme _ on that or if he had assumed his old scheme worked and didn't? that was the nub— scheme worked and didn't? that was the nub of— scheme worked and didn't? that was the nub of it — scheme worked and didn't? that was the nub of it and this was covered again— the nub of it and this was covered again by— the nub of it and this was covered again by picard in the ft. most so, it is interesting that fast forward to january, it is a long time after last summerand it to january, it is a long time after last summer and it has taken this lon- last summer and it has taken this long for— last summer and it has taken this long for the sun, earlier this month, _ long for the sun, earlier this month, to... property there was a bit in _ month, to... property there was a bit in the — month, to... property there was a bit in the middle. i month, to. .. property there was a bit in the middle.— bit in the middle. i will get to that, because _ bit in the middle. i will get to that, because after _ bit in the middle. i will get to that, because after the - bit in the middle. i will get to that, because after the sun, l bit in the middle. i will get to i that, because after the sun, you followed it up with your story, anna isaac, about how some of that was a penalty, but it has been rumbling on sincejuly, first of all, anna isaac, why do you think it took so long to break through, presumably this arejust very

long to break through, presumably this are just very hard stories to get over the line? it is not like you've got endless information and access to individual tax status? absolutely, it takes an awfully long time to get to the point where you can be confident enough to publish something in some cases, where you might have very little by way of additional information provided by the other party. you also have to make sure that you've got really sound public interest grounds for getting involved with private information, for instance, so you have to really do an assessment of, and i sure this isn't a fishing expedition? am i sure there is a justification for examining someone's private arrangements? and you have to go through all of those stages to make sure that you're being really sound in the way that you approach an investigation. there are also legal considerations, and while i'm not talking about this story specifically, for reporters in general, we are finding their is an increasing use of lawyers and the legal system to try and suppress

public interestjournalism, and that has to be a huge consideration when we think about how long some of these stories take to come out, we really have to weigh up a lot when it comes to putting a story like this together, it is a tricky process and very intricate. brute this together, it is a tricky process and very intricate. we will talk a bit about _ process and very intricate. we will talk a bit about the _ process and very intricate. we will talk a bit about the experience - process and very intricate. we will| talk a bit about the experience you had, dan, with lawyers in this. i should say the hmrc have made very clear they consider in terms of nadhim zahawi's tax affairs that it was a careless and not a deliberate error, which is what he has maintained. but the same question to you, dan, from july to now, it is a difficult story to get over the line, what was going on in the meantime?— line, what was going on in the meantime? ., ., , ., , ., meantime? so, i wrote that story and auestion meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was. — meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was. mr _ meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was, mr zahawi, _ meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was, mr zahawi, did - meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was, mr zahawi, did you - meantime? so, i wrote that story and question was, mr zahawi, did you payj question was, mrzahawi, did you pay tax on _ question was, mrzahawi, did you pay tax on this? _ question was, mrzahawi, did you pay tax on this? his response was to brief— tax on this? his response was to brief on — tax on this? his response was to brief on background that the arrangements with this gibraltar company— arrangements with this gibraltar company which had received the shares _ company which had received the shares in — company which had received the shares in yougov that i think would have been— shares in yougov that i think would have been his, they were justified because _ have been his, they were justified because his father, through this

company, — because his father, through this company, provided the start—up capital~ — company, provided the start—up capital. and i look at that in a lot of detailed — capital. and i look at that in a lot of detailed with forensic accountants helping me and decided that what— accountants helping me and decided that what he said was not correct, and i_ that what he said was not correct, and i said — that what he said was not correct, and i said so. and then he moved to another, _ and i said so. and then he moved to another, new— and i said so. and then he moved to another, new explanation that his not mentioning start—up capital, saying _ not mentioning start—up capital, saying that his father had provided know-how — saying that his father had provided know—how in the start—up of yougov, and two _ know—how in the start—up of yougov, and two journalists at the times, billy and — and two journalists at the times, billy and george, changed that down and couldn't find support, worked at yougov, _ and couldn't find support, worked at yougov, got— and couldn't find support, worked at yougov, got an official denial out of yougov, — yougov, got an official denial out of yougov, and then that made me say publicly— of yougov, and then that made me say publicly that _ of yougov, and then that made me say publicly that i didn't believe the first explanation we had been given, the one _ first explanation we had been given, the one about start—up capital, from mr zahawi, — the one about start—up capital, from mrzahawi, and it was the one about start—up capital, from mr zahawi, and it was that which fronted _ mr zahawi, and it was that which fronted him to get lawyers to write to me _ fronted him to get lawyers to write to me ordering me to retract that claim _ to me ordering me to retract that claim. �* , ., ,, , claim. and were you keeping the story alive _ claim. and were you keeping the story alive on — claim. and were you keeping the story alive on social— claim. and were you keeping the story alive on social media, - claim. and were you keeping thej story alive on social media, were you goading, what were you doing, when it came to back and forward with lawyers?— when it came to back and forward with lawyers? well, so, initially, i

was out playing — with lawyers? well, so, initially, i was out playing with _ with lawyers? well, so, initially, i was out playing with the - with lawyers? well, so, initially, i was out playing with the kids, - with lawyers? well, so, initially, i was out playing with the kids, and with lawyers? well, so, initially, i. was out playing with the kids, and i -ot was out playing with the kids, and i got a _ was out playing with the kids, and i got a twitter message from someone i didn't— got a twitter message from someone i didn't know. _ got a twitter message from someone i didn't know, a partner at a law firm who high— didn't know, a partner at a law firm who high had heard were acting for zahawi _ who high had heard were acting for zahawi and — who high had heard were acting for zahawi and he said, can we speak? i am an— zahawi and he said, can we speak? i am an experienced lawyer, i know how these _ am an experienced lawyer, i know how these things _ am an experienced lawyer, i know how these things work, i said, anything you want— these things work, i said, anything you want to — these things work, i said, anything you want to say to me, please put in writing, _ you want to say to me, please put in writing, and — you want to say to me, please put in writing, and i— you want to say to me, please put in writing, and i won't accept without prejudice _ writing, and i won't accept without prejudice correspondence, meaning, confidential correspondence i can't repeat _ confidential correspondence i can't repeat. laterthat confidential correspondence i can't repeat. later that day i got an enail— repeat. later that day i got an e—mail from them which was headed with without prejudice, the very i ask them — with without prejudice, the very i ask them not to do, which ordered me to retract _ ask them not to do, which ordered me to retract and — ask them not to do, which ordered me to retract and said that i could not publish _ to retract and said that i could not publish or— to retract and said that i could not publish or even refer to this communication, if i did there would be serious — communication, if i did there would be serious consequences. i didn't be serious consequences. ididn't mention— be serious consequences. i didn't mention this on social media at all. partly, _ mention this on social media at all. partly, i— mention this on social media at all. partly, i thought the e—mail was so confused, — partly, i thought the e—mail was so confused, i— partly, i thought the e—mail was so confused, i didn't really understand what confused, ididn't really understand what their— confused, i didn't really understand what their position was, and i wanted — what their position was, and i wanted to— what their position was, and i wanted to draw them out a bit more. just for— wanted to draw them out a bit more. just for a _ wanted to draw them out a bit more. just for a second, just to say, anna

isaac, mostjournalists presumably isaac, most journalists presumably don't isaac, mostjournalists presumably don't necessarily have the confidence to deal with legal letters, they are quite scary, i suppose, if you're working in a company, there will be a lawyer to advise you, but even so, there are fears about it, maybe it helped that dan was a lawyer himself, he could read them, in a way? ihla dan was a lawyer himself, he could read them, in a way?— dan was a lawyer himself, he could read them, in a way? no question dan has made a — read them, in a way? no question dan has made a really _ read them, in a way? no question dan has made a really valuable _ has made a really valuable contribution to illustrate some of the kinds of letters that members of the kinds of letters that members of the media might receive. i would pay huge tribute to the media lawyers i have both at the guardian and the independent who have to weigh things up independent who have to weigh things up sometimes a bit differently, but have cancelled it and allowed each stage of this reporting process to go ahead. the stories have been published. but i do think what dan is illustrating, and there is a broader point here, again not talking about this story in particular, about how the legal system in general might be used

against public interestjournalism. against public interest journalism. there against public interestjournalism. there are a lot of cases at the moment, for instance there is one involving the permission given by the treasury for the legal actions of someone linked to the wagner group againsta of someone linked to the wagner group against a journalist, eliot higgins. so what we are talking that is a broader context forjournalism in the uk and i think it's really important that we consider this is part of a bigger picture and that dan's contribution is part of this bigger picture which is very important. bigger picture which is very important-— bigger picture which is very imortant. �* , , , bigger picture which is very imortant. �* , , important. because these letters are off-cuttin. important. because these letters are offputting- yes. _ important. because these letters are offputting. yes, and _ important. because these letters are offputting. yes, and that _ important. because these letters are offputting. yes, and that line - offputting. yes, and that line between using _ offputting. yes, and that line between using them - offputting. yes, and that line between using them as - offputting. yes, and that line between using them as a - offputting. yes, and that line . between using them as a signal, offputting. yes, and that line - between using them as a signal, and i being fair, proportionate, and i doing myjob properly? and the line between trying to suppress journalism, that is what our media lawyers have to help us consider. and i should make clear that mr zahawi's lawyers have said that they sentjust zahawi's lawyers have said that they sent just a zahawi's lawyers have said that they sentjust a polite, confidential letter through them, through the solicitors, to mr needle, to collect a few inaccuracies, this is fairly

common practice, legally. but you chose to make the responses public, why was that? it is chose to make the responses public, why was that?— why was that? it is indeed common ractice why was that? it is indeed common practice for — why was that? it is indeed common practice for libel _ why was that? it is indeed common practice for libel lawyers _ why was that? it is indeed common practice for libel lawyers to - why was that? it is indeed common practice for libel lawyers to send i practice for libel lawyers to send letters which asked people to retract and claim that their confidential things should not be published, it is common practice, and it is a disgrace. and it has now been confirmed to me, solicitors may not do that. do use a yourself now as a journalist, and if so, where do you think you stand in terms of being impartial? people could read your blog and get the sense that in a sense, you set a nadhim zahawi in your sites and you were going to get him, that was what you were up to? i really wasn't. and if he had responded saying, for example, yes, ithink— responded saying, for example, yes, i think there — responded saying, for example, yes, i think there are... i think you are making— i think there are... i think you are making some— i think there are... i think you are making some mistakes in what you say but i making some mistakes in what you say but i think— making some mistakes in what you say but i think you are identifying some issues _ but i think you are identifying some issues that— but i think you are identifying some issues that i need to look at more closely— issues that i need to look at more closely with my advisor, i will do

that and — closely with my advisor, i will do that and i— closely with my advisor, i will do that and i will let you know and thank— that and i will let you know and thank you. _ that and i will let you know and thank you, dan. if he had done something _ thank you, dan. if he had done something like that, then not only would _ something like that, then not only would high i've walked away, but i would _ would high i've walked away, but i would have walked and looked like an absolute _ would have walked and looked like an absolute idiot if i had pursued him aggressively. so, it was his denials that made — aggressively. so, it was his denials that made me certain in my mind, and the way— that made me certain in my mind, and the way that— that made me certain in my mind, and the way that he was behaving, certain. — the way that he was behaving, certain, that he had something to hide, _ certain, that he had something to hide, and — certain, that he had something to hide, and of course he did because it turned _ hide, and of course he did because it turned out— hide, and of course he did because it turned out that at the same time that he _ it turned out that at the same time that he was— it turned out that at the same time that he was sending me those letters, — that he was sending me those letters, he was engaged in discussions with hmrc to settle the tax liability that he was denying to be that _ tax liability that he was denying to be that he — tax liability that he was denying to be that he had. and tax liability that he was denying to be that he had.— tax liability that he was denying to be that he had. and anna isaac from the guardian. _ be that he had. and anna isaac from the guardian, journalist _ be that he had. and anna isaac from the guardian, journalist revealing i the guardian, journalist revealing how a story is put together, showing the to—ing and fro—ing behind the scenes, is something of a trend these days, and clearly we have seen dan neidle, not a journalist but putting a lot of it out there on social media, and working with journalists as well, 20 years ago this was the thing thatjournalists kept quiet about it some extent, and now it feels like we reveal our workings much more? i now it feels like we reveal our workings much more?- now it feels like we reveal our workings much more? i think it is imortant workings much more? i think it is important because _ workings much more? i think it is important because it _

workings much more? i think it is important because it can - workings much more? i think it is important because it can show. workings much more? i think it is important because it can show a i important because it can show a consideration of fairness, it can show, here are all the factors i considered when i was working for you, the reader, the viewer, to arrive at these points. i think some of the constraints are always a little bit more, sometimes, in some instances, where you have to in general terms be very protective of your sourcing so you have to be really considered about how you engage with some of, for instance, a legal letter butjust in general with how you show your workings, source protection has to be paramount. and you also have to consider how you are gauging when you publish correspondence, for instance the independent made a decision to publish some of the e—mails that were received by journalist while i was there between journalists and mr zahawi, that is a bit different from the legal correspondence that dan is referring to but that is something that listeners might find interesting to take a look at, but it has to be so carefully considered. i think showing your workings about showing the reader where they can trust in

your processes... is a the reader where they can trust in your processes. . ._ the reader where they can trust in your processes... is a quite unusual for a broadsheet _ your processes... is a quite unusual for a broadsheet to _ your processes... is a quite unusual for a broadsheet to do _ your processes... is a quite unusual for a broadsheet to do that? - your processes. .. is a quite unusual for a broadsheet to do that? i - your processes... is a quite unusual for a broadsheet to do that? i think| for a broadsheet to do that? i think it has been — for a broadsheet to do that? i think it has been known _ for a broadsheet to do that? i think it has been known for— for a broadsheet to do that? i think it has been known for instance - for a broadsheet to do that? i think i it has been known for instance where there has been a court case, there has been a lot of reporting of media court cases and that often allows material to go into the public domain and court reporting is a really important part of what media has done for a long time, i think the specific issue of media correspondence is a case—by—case and you have to consider all of the factors at play when you can make that decision.— that decision. and i suppose, dan has sent that decision. and i suppose, dan has spent presumably, _ that decision. and i suppose, dan has spent presumably, you - that decision. and i suppose, dan has spent presumably, you have l that decision. and i suppose, dan - has spent presumably, you have spent quite a long time being a source, many years being a source, before you became more front and centre in these sorts of stories, is that right? and to you, that question... not a source, per se. for many years i not a source, per se. for many years i would _ not a source, per se. for many years i would act — not a source, per se. for many years i would act as _ not a source, per se. for many years i would act as a sounding board for journalists — i would act as a sounding board for journalists relating to tax points, and most — journalists relating to tax points, and most certainly... journalists relating to tax points, and most certainly. . ._ journalists relating to tax points, and most certainly... because this stuff is complicated _ and most certainly... because this stuff is complicated for _ and most certainly... because this stuff is complicated for it - and most certainly... because this stuff is complicated for it is, - and most certainly... because this stuff is complicated for it is, and l stuff is complicated for it is, and finding experts is hard and i was

happy to help them, naturally never when i had a client involved or an interest involved. and dan spent an awful lot of time on this, you presumably have, too, but you have got a day job presumably have, too, but you have got a dayjob to do as well, and there was precious in a newsroom about getting a daily story going, and getting something over the line, it is harder to get these kind of stories over the line, journalists are under pressure to deliver stories much more regularly than a story about nadhim zahawi, but these are the ones we remember, of course? yes, that line between the big investigations and the daily reporting that helps you think about what is worth investigating is really hard to draw. i started my work looking at the cabinet because this is not the only tax story i have written about a member of the cabinet, i started really closely examining the tax affairs and the finances of cabinet members early last year, so, it has been... maybe a bit less on social media but i

have been plugging away at it for a very long time and both the independent and the guardian have been very generous with allowing me time to take a look at these things. if you get those kind of stories, they will keep letting you do it which is great. and dan, do you see yourself as an activist now, how do yourself as an activist now, how do you see your role going forward? i am not an activist, most of what i do is _ am not an activist, most of what i do is writing — am not an activist, most of what i do is writing about tax policy, problems— do is writing about tax policy, problems income and tax policy, how it could _ problems income and tax policy, how it could be _ problems income and tax policy, how it could be improved, most of what i have written — it could be improved, most of what i have written is about that, i have -ot have written is about that, i have got a _ have written is about that, i have got a couple of stories which have to be _ got a couple of stories which have to be delayed because otherwise they bash into _ to be delayed because otherwise they bash into zahawi and could confuse anyone. _ bash into zahawi and could confuse anyone, which are nothing to do with day-to-day_ anyone, which are nothing to do with day—to—day politics, one of which involves — day—to—day politics, one of which involves tax — day—to—day politics, one of which involves tax avoidance in a well— known industry on involves tax avoidance in a well—known industry on a involves tax avoidance in a well— known industry on a scale involves tax avoidance in a well—known industry on a scale which makesm _ well—known industry on a scale which makes... chicken field. another involves— makes... chicken field. another involves let's call it administrative practice which has caused _ administrative practice which has caused harm and suffering to hundreds of thousands of people. these _ hundreds of thousands of people. these are — hundreds of thousands of people. these are the kinds of things i really— these are the kinds of things i really want to write about, i am a tax nerd. — really want to write about, i am a tax nerd. i— really want to write about, i am a tax nerd, i don't have a desire to be some — tax nerd, i don't have a desire to be some attacks which find a generat _

be some attacks which find a ueneral. �* ., be some attacks which find a ueneral. i, .., be some attacks which find a ueneral. 1, ,., , be some attacks which find a ueneral. �* ., ,., , ., general. both sound interesting and do lease general. both sound interesting and do please come _ general. both sound interesting and do please come back— general. both sound interesting and do please come back on _ general. both sound interesting and do please come back on the - general. both sound interesting and do please come back on the media | do please come back on the media show if you get any of those over the line because they sound fascinating as well. we like to delve into the processes behind getting these stories out there, so thank you both for coming on the programme. anna isaac and dan neidle, that is absolutely brilliant. now, have a listen to this... they speak welsh. that is the crime drama dal y mellt and last week netflix announced they had bought it, theirfirst welsh language drama. it is published by the welsh language broadcaster foc. —— is aa the chief content officer at sac is llinos—griffin—williams, and adrian baker is executive producer of dal y mellt and co—founder of vox productions, also based in cardiff. adrian,

congratulations to you, we heard at the top it is a crime heist, but tell us a bit more about it and also about the practicalities of making a drama in welsh.— drama in welsh. well, i think it's like any other— drama in welsh. well, i think it's like any other programme, - drama in welsh. well, i think it's l like any other programme, frankly. you know, we have a crew and we go and shoot it. you know, we have a crew and we go and shoot it— and shoot it. does all your crew have to speak— and shoot it. does all your crew have to speak welsh? - and shoot it. does all your crew have to speak welsh? no, - and shoot it. does all your crew have to speak welsh? no, no, | and shoot it. does all your crew. have to speak welsh? no, no, no, and shoot it. does all your crew- have to speak welsh? no, no, no, the key technicians — have to speak welsh? no, no, no, the key technicians do, _ have to speak welsh? no, no, no, the key technicians do, the _ have to speak welsh? no, no, no, the key technicians do, the directors - key technicians do, the directors and producer and uppishly the actors, or are very much native welsh speakers, but we interface with english crew as well. so, it doesn't have to be entirely in welsh, and in fact the name of the show, when it comes up on netflix, is going to be called rough cut, because it is going to be an easier title to follow. flan because it is going to be an easier title to follow.— title to follow. can utilise anything _ title to follow. can utilise anything more _ title to follow. can utilise anything more about - title to follow. can utilise anything more about the | title to follow. can utilise - anything more about the story, it is anything more about the story, it is a crime heist, diamonds are involved?— a crime heist, diamonds are involved? no, diamonds are involved with the welsh _ involved? no, diamonds are involved with the welsh translation _ involved? no, diamonds are involved with the welsh translation i - involved? no, diamonds are involved with the welsh translation i believe l with the welsh translation i believe is along the lines of catching the lightning, which is to do with the

diamonds. and it's a story that takes a group of reprobates from south wales white up to north wales, it's got some fantastic countryside alongside all the capers, which takes us to soho, up to anglesey. so, i don't want to say too much because there are lots of spoilers that i could give, and i would rather not. that i could give, and i would rather not-— that i could give, and i would rather not. ., ~ , , rather not. there enough, anglesey, one of my favourite _ rather not. there enough, anglesey, one of my favourite places _ rather not. there enough, anglesey, one of my favourite places in the - one of my favourite places in the uk. llinos, why do you think netflix choseit? uk. llinos, why do you think netflix chose it? �* . uk. llinos, why do you think netflix chose it? �* , �*, chose it? because it's unique, i think. chose it? because it's unique, i think- when — chose it? because it's unique, i think. when you've _ chose it? because it's unique, i think. when you've got - chose it? because it's unique, i think. when you've got so - chose it? because it's unique, i| think. when you've got so much choice. — think. when you've got so much choice. and _ think. when you've got so much choice, and people are looking for something — choice, and people are looking for something with a bit of a different feel, something with a bit of a different feel. i_ something with a bit of a different feel, i think it is full of beautiful cinematography, killer soundtrack, it's based on glorious wales. _ soundtrack, it's based on glorious wales. it's — soundtrack, it's based on glorious wales, it's also got that welsh sense — wales, it's also got that welsh sense of— wales, it's also got that welsh sense of humour, cheekiness, banter, but it— sense of humour, cheekiness, banter, but it is— sense of humour, cheekiness, banter, but it is a _ sense of humour, cheekiness, banter, but it is a really fast—paced heist drama _ but it is a really fast—paced heist drama that will suck you in and keep you there _ drama that will suck you in and keep you there for the whole box set that

you there for the whole box set that you can _ you there for the whole box set that you can binge on. and for us i think we are _ you can binge on. and for us i think we are hugely proud of it, our head of script— we are hugely proud of it, our head of script has — we are hugely proud of it, our head of script has worked really closely with vox — of script has worked really closely with vox productions and the talent there _ with vox productions and the talent there was— with vox productions and the talent there was such a long time to get this to _ there was such a long time to get this to air~ — there was such a long time to get this to air. we are thrilled that netflix — this to air. we are thrilled that netflix have recognised how beautiful a piece of work it is and how unigue — beautiful a piece of work it is and how unique it is and i think also it is because — how unique it is and i think also it is because it's a really great series _ is because it's a really great series. ., , is because it's a really great series. ., . . is because it's a really great series. ., , ., ., ., series. how big a deal for your channel is _ series. how big a deal for your channel is it _ series. how big a deal for your channel is it that _ series. how big a deal for your channel is it that netflix - series. how big a deal for your channel is it that netflix have l channel is it that netflix have given you this accolade and a load of cash, presumably? this given you this accolade and a load of cash, presumably?— given you this accolade and a load of cash, presumably? this is nothing new in terms — of cash, presumably? this is nothing new in terms of— of cash, presumably? this is nothing new in terms of us _ of cash, presumably? this is nothing new in terms of us selling _ of cash, presumably? this is nothing new in terms of us selling sac- new in terms of us selling sac content — new in terms of us selling sac content globally, we've done that for years. — content globally, we've done that for years, and content globally, we've done that foryears, and our content globally, we've done that for years, and our channel strategy is to take _ for years, and our channel strategy is to take wales and welsh talent to the world _ is to take wales and welsh talent to the world. we want people to hear it, the world. we want people to hear it. see _ the world. we want people to hear it. see it. — the world. we want people to hear it, see it, speak it, see the value in welsh — it, see it, speak it, see the value in welsh language but also recognise the talent _ in welsh language but also recognise the talent in companies like vox productions and the producers, writers. — productions and the producers, writers, actors here in wales. it's great _ writers, actors here in wales. it's great that— writers, actors here in wales. it's great that they are picking it up and i_ great that they are picking it up and i think to have netflix as a

brand — and i think to have netflix as a brand pick— and i think to have netflix as a brand pick it up gives that the stamp — brand pick it up gives that the stamp of. _ brand pick it up gives that the stamp of, this is something worth watching — stamp of, this is something worth watching. but it has been out on our channel— watching. but it has been out on our channel back in october, boxer is available — channel back in october, boxer is available at the moment. and channel back in october, boxer is available at the moment.- channel back in october, boxer is available at the moment. and it is on bbc iplayer— available at the moment. and it is on bbc iplayer as _ available at the moment. and it is on bbc iplayer as well, _ available at the moment. and it is on bbc iplayer as well, sac - available at the moment. and it is on bbc iplayer as well, sac click l available at the moment. and it is | on bbc iplayer as well, sac click on bbc iplayer. it on bbc iplayer as well, sac click on bbc iplayer-— bbc iplayer. it is, and we want to make our content _ bbc iplayer. it is, and we want to make our content really - bbc iplayer. it is, and we want to l make our content really accessible, whether— make our content really accessible, whether you speak welsh or not, you can watch _ whether you speak welsh or not, you can watch it — whether you speak welsh or not, you can watch it with subtitles, if you are a _ can watch it with subtitles, if you are a new — can watch it with subtitles, if you are a new speaker, you can follow it but also _ are a new speaker, you can follow it but also it _ are a new speaker, you can follow it but also it is— are a new speaker, you can follow it but also it is for our welsh speaking audiences well. adrian colun . a speaking audiences well. adrian colunga made — speaking audiences well. adrian colunga made this _ speaking audiences well. adrian colunga made this drama - speaking audiences well. adrian colunga made this drama just i speaking audiences well. adrian colunga made this drama just in welsh but i have looked at your production company and you often make shows in english and welsh at the same time, which i think is called back—to—back production, how does that work? called back-to-back production, how does that work?— does that work? when i started i couldn't work _ does that work? when i started i couldn't work out _ does that work? when i started i couldn't work out how _ does that work? when i started i couldn't work out how to - does that work? when i started i couldn't work out how to do - does that work? when i started i couldn't work out how to do it i does that work? when i started i couldn't work out how to do it at | couldn't work out how to do it at all but actually it is relatively simple. the actors do have to be bilingual, we made a show called keeping faith, which we shot

back—to—back, actually the lead in that was not a welsh speaker at the time, she learned welsh, brilliantly, and managed to do it in two languages. bud brilliantly, and managed to do it in two languages-— brilliantly, and managed to do it in two languages. and that was picked u . two languages. and that was picked u- b two languages. and that was picked u - b bbc two languages. and that was picked up by bbc one _ two languages. and that was picked up by bbc one and _ two languages. and that was picked up by bbc one and did _ two languages. and that was picked up by bbc one and did really - two languages. and that was picked up by bbc one and did really well. i up by bbc one and did really well. do you do the same scene twice, if you see what i mean?— do you do the same scene twice, if you see what i mean? pretty much, we ma be you see what i mean? pretty much, we maybe either— you see what i mean? pretty much, we maybe either start _ you see what i mean? pretty much, we maybe either start the _ you see what i mean? pretty much, we maybe either start the scene _ you see what i mean? pretty much, we maybe either start the scene in - maybe either start the scene in welsh or english, we will then do the exact replica shot in the other language, so we might go from english to welsh and then we will stay with the welsh for the next shot, and then we go to english for the next shot and then we come back to the third sequence and we started all over again. to the third sequence and we started all overagain. so to the third sequence and we started all over again. so we literally leapfrog a llinos, have you done a lot of this back—to—back production in your previousjobs? lot of this back—to—back production in your previous jobs? yes. lot of this back-to-back production in your previousjobs?— lot of this back-to-back production in your previous jobs? in your previous “obs? yes, we have done ones in your previous jobs? yes, we have done ones which _ in your previous jobs? yes, we have done ones which we _ in your previous jobs? yes, we have done ones which we have _ in your previous jobs? yes, we have done ones which we have to - done ones which we have to produced. i done ones which we have to produced. i was _ done ones which we have to produced. i was making _ done ones which we have to produced. i was making shows in sac, with the states— i was making shows in sac, with the states as _ i was making shows in sac, with the states as well as with european broadcasters and networks like bbc, channel _ broadcasters and networks like bbc, channel 5_ broadcasters and networks like bbc, channel 5 and channel a, keeping faith _ channel 5 and channel a, keeping faith was —

channel 5 and channel a, keeping faith was one that we have done here at 54c— faith was one that we have done here at sac before as a back—to—back production. _ at sac before as a back—to—back production, hinterland was another one with _ production, hinterland was another one with the bbc. so, we have got a track— one with the bbc. so, we have got a track record — one with the bbc. so, we have got a track record of doing back—to—backs. light _ track record of doing back—to—backs. light in— track record of doing back—to—backs. light in the — track record of doing back—to—backs. light in the hall, which is currently— light in the hall, which is currently on channel a, has already gone _ currently on channel a, has already gone out _ currently on channel a, has already gone out on — currently on channel a, has already gone out on sac earlier on in the spring _ gone out on sac earlier on in the spring so. — gone out on sac earlier on in the spring. so, we want to be really collaborative, not competitive, as a network. _ collaborative, not competitive, as a network. we — collaborative, not competitive, as a network, we want to be able to back talent _ network, we want to be able to back talent across the uk and across the world _ talent across the uk and across the world and _ talent across the uk and across the world and we also want to be making sure that _ world and we also want to be making sure that we are adding value to the viewers _ sure that we are adding value to the viewers back at home because we can add that— viewers back at home because we can add that cash injection with back—to—back or we can take our content — back—to—back or we can take our content to— back—to—back or we can take our content to a _ back—to—back or we can take our content to a broader audience through— content to a broader audience through acquisitions. and content to a broader audience through acquisitions. and llinos, i think ou through acquisitions. and llinos, i think you brought _ through acquisitions. and llinos, i think you brought the _ through acquisitions. and llinos, i think you brought the welsh i through acquisitions. and llinos, i. think you brought the welsh version of gogglebox to wales, the first time you had brought a british format, why? and how has it gone down? i format, why? and how has it gone down? ~' . . format, why? and how has it gone down? ,, ,, , ., , ., down? i think sac is transforming, it wants to — down? i think sac is transforming, it wants to be _ down? i think sac is transforming, it wants to be a _ down? i think sac is transforming, it wants to be a channel— down? i think sac is transforming, it wants to be a channel for- it wants to be a channel for tomorrow, that is relevant,

populist. _ tomorrow, that is relevant, populist, which serves our audience here. _ populist, which serves our audience here. and _ populist, which serves our audience here, and which brings people to the welsh _ here, and which brings people to the welsh language, as a psp. gogglebox for us _ welsh language, as a psp. gogglebox for us was _ welsh language, as a psp. gogglebox for us was a _ welsh language, as a psp. gogglebox for us was a way of really reflecting a modern wales and the audience. — reflecting a modern wales and the audience, all over wales in the way that welsh— audience, all over wales in the way that welsh is spoken all over wales. we got _ that welsh is spoken all over wales. we got a _ that welsh is spoken all over wales. we got a really good relationship with channel a, so they did have ekclusivity— with channel a, so they did have exclusivity on it in the uk and where — exclusivity on it in the uk and where more than happy to open it up to us— where more than happy to open it up to us as _ where more than happy to open it up to us as partners.— to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do ou to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do you feel _ to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do you feel there _ to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do you feel there is _ to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do you feel there is this _ to us as partners. adrian, briefly, do you feel there is this growing i do you feel there is this growing market forforeign—language market for foreign—language generally on the market forforeign—language generally on the streaming platforms and presumably you spotted that this is changing the industry, very briefly, and afraid? the is changing the industry, very briefly, and afraid?— is changing the industry, very briefly, and afraid? the last decade we've seen — briefly, and afraid? the last decade we've seen the _ briefly, and afraid? the last decade we've seen the scan _ briefly, and afraid? the last decade we've seen the scan to _ briefly, and afraid? the last decade we've seen the scan to our - we've seen the scan to our revolution, we've seen the french revolution with shows like upin and others, and these are shows which are rectally bought off—the—shelf, so they can naturally choose the very best, so what they are doing is choosing the very best stories, and they happen to have subtitles, and for technological reasons, it is

willie easy to access. i’m for technological reasons, it is willie easy to access. i'm afraid that is it today. _ willie easy to access. i'm afraid that is it today. thank - willie easy to access. i'm afraid that is it today. thank to - willie easy to access. i'm afraid that is it today. thank to all i willie easy to access. i'm afraid that is it today. thank to all my j that is it today. thank to all my guests, adrian bate, co—founder of vox productions, llinos—griffin—williams, from sac, and isaac and dan neidle, the media show will be back next week, thanks for watching, goodbye. hello. here is how the rest of the weekend weather is shaping up. mainly dry out there this afternoon despite all of the cloud in wales and england, just limited sunny spells, and from the thickest cloud in some northern areas, just a little drizzle here and there, not amounting to very much. northern ireland and scotland, dry with sunny spells with the odd passing shower in the far north and north—west of scotland. keeping a lot of cloud, wales and england, tonight, limiting the potential for frost.

just parts of eastern, southern scotland, far north of england, where there are clear spells, temperatures could get close to freezing, just a few pockets of frost. a breezy day across the uk tomorrow, much windier across northern scotland, with gales. outbreaks of rain pushing down into northern england but not until late in the day. much of wales and england will stay dry but parts of south wales and southern england could get some light rain early on.

this is bbc news. welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm lukwesa burak — the headlines. israeli police say a 13—year—old boy has shot and injured two people in eastjerusaelm a day after seven people were shot dead near a synagogue. graphic footage is released showing the moment 29—year—old black man tyre nichols was beaten by five police officers in the us city of memphis. protests have taken place across the united states in response — the police officers have been charged with his murder. a 15—year—old girl has died after being stabbed in northumberland. police have arrested a 16—year—old boy on suspicion of murder.