this is bbc news. the headlines: the british prime minister, rishi sunak, has sacked the chairman of his conservative party, nadhim zahawi. mr sunak said in a letter to mr zahawi that it was clear that there had been a serious breach of the ministerial code. a bus has crashed into a ravine in pakistan, killing at least a0 of the 48 people aboard. officials in balochistan province said the bus plunged off a bridge after hitting a pillar and burst into flames. israel's security cabinet has approved a raft of measures in response to the fatal shooting of seven israelis in occupied eastjerusalem by a palestinian gunman. they include depriving

residency and other rights of an attacker�*s family members. the memphis police department has disbanded the so—called scorpion special unit — whose officers are accused of murdering tyre nichols. you're watching bbc news. now it's time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello, and welcome to political thinking. he's the man who leads the organisation which represents britain's biggest employers talking the country down. or is he simply speaking up for the policies needed to get the country growing again? my guest on political thinking this week is tony danker. he is the director general

of the cbi, or what we used to call the confederation of british industry. he's gone from selling menswear on the shop floor in his home city of belfast to being an adviser, first for the chief rabbi and then a treasury minister during the banking crisis. it is thejob he does now, though, which led the times to argue in an editorial this week that he, as the leader of the cbi, should not be talking the country down. tony danker, welcome to political thinking. you just made me sound much more dangerous than i am. thank you, nick. any regrets about that quote about not being part of team uk? that was kemi badenoch, government minister. i know. she is great, kemi, by the way. i spent the first two years of this job being booster—ish about britain. i decided i was going to out—booster boris. i got so much stick from our members

saying everything is going to pot and you cannot sound optimistic like boris. yet last week, i sounded a warning and i am talking britain down. i am not blaming you, nick, but i might suggest... is it the media's fault? it is not the media's fault, but it is more interesting to say he is for britain, he inspired the prime minister than a more nuanced approach. but i'm delighted to give you the reasons why i said such strong words. you don't sound very regretful. the times editorial i read, i quote, "danker dampener," it says. "perceptions matter. "and an overly pessimistic assessment by the supposed champion of 190,000 businesses can do little good for attracting foreign investment." it's a proper slap on the wrist, that. yeah, it is a little bit. let me tell you about it because i had a long chat with kemi about it in davos, where we were both selling britain. i spend every week in this job talking to a global chief executive about britain.

what is the terrible truth about the last few months, even though the government wish it were not so, is britain got a bit of a knock to its reputation from what happened last autumn. i promise you, global boardrooms noticed. i am telling you they have voted with their feet. not for ever, not for ever, but a lot have turned round and said, i don't know what is going on in britain right now, i mightjust skip it for a second. we will eminently bring that back, and i think the prime minister and the chancellor are doing a very good job on steadying the ship and having a more stable economy. so much has happened, people might not instantly say, last autumn, you mean the toppling of borisjohnson and the liz truss budget, the toppling of truss and the installation of another prime minister? yes, this has been happening whilest a bif thing has been a big thing has been happening in the word,

which isjoe biden deciding he was going to suck in all the global investment in the world, particularly in green energy. last week, the european said, we are going to do it, too. we have been top of the world at the green economy and green energy for ten years. we really have, whether it was ed miliband originally or theresa may laying down markers. and suddenly we are losing share. i did something i haven't done for two years, which was to sound a bit of a warning. this was a deliberate slap in the face? not a slap in the face, but a kind of bucket of cold water, a bit of a reminder to ministers to do so? yes, it was a call to arms, so i will give you the tactical reason why it was a call to arms, and then i will give you the strategic reason. the tactical reason was, i am really glad that rishi sunak and jeremy hunt are in charge. they are bringing stability to the british economy, they are doing it well. they are completely right that the side of the conservative party that is saying let's have mass tax cuts and get the economy growing are wrong.

if we did that, we would increase inflation. but there are some very big issues to solve in this economy. there are some very big decisions to take on growth. i'm worried that in the service of stability, we literally spend a year doing nothing. and i tell you why that worries me, in the long run. my big passion, the thing i have worked on above most is how on earth we change the fact that for 15 years, nothing to do with brexit, but for 15 years, the british economy has been flatlining. my hope and my fear is that we don't use these crises, brexit, covid, war, inflation, to change the trajectory of the growth of our economy. i am worried we are going to miss the chance. so, yes, i was a little bit outspoken. people can hear you almost climbing down the microphone. the passion. is that why you were hired, tony? i mean, the cbi got a bit of a kicking after the brexit referendum. all the talk about the experts

were wrong from michael gove. they were targeting the cbi, amongst others, saying all the talk of business from borisjohnson, he meant the cbi. they were sick of being lectured by you guys in big business. were you hired to get the cbi off its back, off the floor and come out and punch a bit? well, i don't know about that. i mean, look, when i remember my first interview withjohn allen, chairman of tesco, he was president of the cbi. and he sort of said to me, well, you know, what would you do with the job? and i said, i think i would actually say brexit is an opportunity for britain. and he looked at me with an eyebrow raised, not because i think it's good for the economy and free trade, because it's clearly not good forfree trade. but because it would force us finally to have a national strategy about how our economy can compete in the world. and we are becoming a smaller, pluckier country, let's be honest.

we are just not participating in continent so let's have it, let's have a strategy, let's have brexit part two. that's why i took the job. let's now talk about where you got some of that punch, where the fight came from. now you don't grow up in northern ireland — the clue is in the accent, ladies and gentlemen — without knowing a bit about politics, you don't grow up in belfast without knowing a bit about politics. was it a politicalfamily? the six o'clock news every night in belfast in the �*70s and �*80s was gripping, thrilling and terrifying, heartbreaking. there would be political change once a week. there would be bombs and murders and london involved and dublin involved. there'd be leaders of political parties rowing, there'd be actors, voiceovering politicians. it was gripping and consuming to me, and i didn't realise

that it was anything unusual until i went to manchester at 18, to university and i noticed two things straightaway. 0ne, police in the streets didn't have guns. they had torches. i remember thinking it was hilarious that the police only had torches. i thought to myself, i could take the police. and then i remember watching the local news in manchester and i think it was, "tonight, major shock as post office held up!" and i was like, really? that's all you've got? but in part because that makes your story intriguing. you're in northern ireland, you're in the city of belfast, but you're not of the dispute because you arejewish. you're not part of the warring communities. did you feel apart from it? yeah, i felt nontribal. i mean, look, i didn't feelapart from it in the sense that was the family conversation every night. how did you get home tonight? did you miss the riots in duncairn gardens? did you hear the bomb scare? did that affect your drive home? where are you going? be careful. that's a bad area.

that is the everyday conversation of anybody in northern ireland growing up in the �*70s and �*80s. now is that a political conversation? some people might think oh, gosh, that is very political. so the troubles were on your doorstep? of course, of course. you know, friends of mine engaged in the troubles. two men i know very well lost their lives. men i knew who i went to school with joined the police and were injured or maimed. so the troubles were everywhere. but that doesn't mean that everybody was political. in fact, the great thing about northern ireland in the �*70s and �*80s, and you will know, because you have visited, is that actually despite it all, belfast was a happy place where people liked to go drinking and go out to the giants causeway and go to the beach in 15 celsius. so the great comedy derry girls, channel, 4 captures channel 4, captures that sense that you had to be in one community or the other. there was the famous scene in which they were talking in class about the difference between the protestants and the catholics, and protestants, we're told, keep toasters in the cupboards and catholics like bingo.

were you constantly tested? which tribe are you in? it's an old joke, isn't it? because i've heard various people, michael grade once did a joke with me about, are you a protestantjewish or a catholic jewish? and i did have this, i did have this twice, i had a gang of schoolboys come up to me and go, you protestant or catholic? and i would say, jewish. and the face of complete confusion giving me the two second gap i needed to run like hell. so i did get that. but i guess the thing about belfast was i became very politicised and engaged in politics. but i was never tribal. what about values? we dug out — i'm going to embarass tyou — the belfastjewish record. you — the belfastjewish record. now, this is not a big circulation. can i tell you, this is its biggest moment ever, nick! there were 100 jewish families, roughly, when you were there, in belfast. anyway, we have a picture

of the bar mitzvah... oh, this is a stich—up! this whole things a stitch—up! but i thought what was interesting in the report of that bar mitzvah... oh, my god, you are reading from a report of my bar mitzvah! have you ever stooped this low, nick? there are some quite embarassing bits, but i'm not going to read them. but the bit i thought was interesting about values, the family is all—important, it says in the report, and are brought up on lsd. now, i paused there. i thought, does tony danker have a confession? do you know what lsd is? gosh, how do you answer that? that's like when you ask michael portillo, did he take drugs at university? no, i don't know what lsd is — i've never heard of it! love, security, and discipline. were the values of thejewish community... you went on to be president of thejewish student union, you went on to be adviser to the late, greatjonathan sacks, one of the most powerful voices in the country for a long time. were those values, are those value still important to you? i think so. definitely family, and love,

i would love to bring love to westminster, nick, what do you think my chances are? don't give up the dayjob. after you are an adviser to the chief rabbi, you become an adviser, through an old student friend, to liam burton, labour's chief secretary to the treasury under gordon brown. sometimes people talk about rats leaving a sinking ship, you joined a sinking shipjust as the financial crisis was happening, what was it like? it was such a mega crisis. everybody felt, we are not quite doing god's work — i had literally done some of god's work — but we were doing incredibly important things and it felt very serious and very un—political. two years later we would go on to try and fight an election. this is the period of the nationalisation of the banks, the moment at which gordon brown, later as prime minister, would go on to try and lead the international

community to deal with the crisis that was happening. it was the moment that led to a famous note written by your boss, left for his successot at the left for his successor at the treasury, remind us what it said? the "no money left" note. you didn't write it, did you? no, i didn't write the note. not even liam would try and throw me under that bus. i tell you what is interesting about the note. the note was sort of... it embodies that time in the british economy where, and it is all back again, really, we had the right relationship between debt and spending, that is what we did. you were political editor at the bbc, you might not remember this. i remember calling you from the treasury and said, you have got to get the balance right bringing down the deficit, some has got to be done through cuts, some through tax and some through growth. sound familiar?

did i listen? yes, all too familiar. i think gordon brown had told me it again, again and again. it is ten years after you leave the treasury that you get hired by the cbi to do this job. i think it is fair to say, isn't it, as i said at the beginning, the cbi needed to do something different, having suffered during the brexit referendum? were there some of the people around that table who are hiring who just wanted to don a t—shirt and to say, we told you so? we said brexit wouldn't work, and we don't think it has. i remember my very first conversation with borisjohnson. i tried this line on him, which was a bit ballsy, but you could get away with it with boris. i said, this whole brexit thing, for us it was just business. for you, it was bigger than that, personal, sovereignty was a massive idea you had worked your whole life for. for business people,

it was business. would you like to reduce free trade and do more paperwork, to which the answer was, no, why would we say yes to that? to my predecessor's credit and everybody at the cbi's credit, the moment the vote was over, they said, let's get the best brexit. that is what business people say? yes, this idea business people are walking around moaning, they are moaning about the fact it isn't done. not the fact that it was done. it is kind of like, let's get on with this. let's go to stage two? yes, also let's trade. business people trade, they don't do politics. it was an interesting point you make, it was just business. the criticism michael gove and borisjohnson made of big business was essentially arguing you are part of the problem. you were the reason so many people, not you personally, but you, corporate britain, was the reason

people felt they had been left behind, that people felt that westminster didn't represent them, that people felt there was this great divide between the rich and the poor. do you think there has been enough reflection in corporate britain of what people were telling you in that referendum, not just the politicians? oh, god, there is a lot there. let me begin with the obvious rebuttal that if any politician was saying brexit was a vote against big companies rather than westminster, i think they doth protest too much. but i am a big supporter of what i call progressive capitalism. it is a fundamental belief that first of all you need prosperity to give people life chances. government doesn't give people life chances, business, firms, companies do. secondly, that increasingly now, companies are doing that of their own volition, it is part of the corporate dna. not brought about by regulators

and politicians or brexit voters, but because those are the contemporary values of people that work in our workplace and shape our companies. is every company good? no, there are some bad companies in the world. i wish they weren't, because i go on television the day after they do something bad, it is very hard. i remember having this conversation with keir starmer and i said labour need to make a choice about business. is business the barrier to a fairer society? or is business the deliverer of a fairer society? my politics are 100% the latter. he said? no, mine. do you think he's found the answer yet? i think we are currently led by a set of politicians on both side of the house who think business is part of the answer and not the problem. yet the woman sitting in that chair on this podcast programme last week, sharon graham,

general secretary of unite, would say, hold on a second. these are businesses led by chief executives who are paying themselves more and more at a time, notjust during the short term inflation repeak, but over many years workers have seen cuts in their real wages. they don't really get it at all? should i think people should see cuts in wages? no, they should grow. wages will grow if we have high performing companies alongside a good minimum wage. i think we agree more than we disagree. this idea that, you know, there is definitely truth in saying one of the drivers of brexit was that the economy did not work for everyone. that is absolutely right. i take that very, very seriously. and therefore, now that we all are post brexiteers, i would like to suggest, we need to work out how the economy can work for everyone.

i don't want economic policy to be driven about an old brexit debate about sovereignty and get rid of any rule that has a blue flag with golden stars from brussels. i want the economy that works for everyone, creates opportunity for everyone. i think borisjohnson was completely right to talk about levelling up. that is what business can do for britain, and those are my politics. you have talked about borisjohnson once or twice. i just want to play you something... oh, god. ..from borisjohnson. tony, i went, as we all must, to peppa pig world, peppa pig world is very much my kind of place. it has very safe streets... ..discipline in schools, heavy emphasis on new mass transit systems, i notice.

peppa pig world... you were on stage when the then prime minister riffed about peppa pig world, lost his place, spent 20 seconds saying "forgive me, forgive me". could you believe what was happening? the most famous thing i have ever done in my life is sit next to borisjohnson when that happened. it is the thing i am most famous for. was something going through your mind which is, i must not, i am on camera, put my head in my hands, roll my eyes to the ceiling? this is a big revelation, for the 200 people who think peppa pig is the greatest thing around. my biggest revelation is, i thought the peppa pig stuff was very funny. i didn't agree with borisjohnson about much, but i always thought he was very funny. and if you replay that stuff, it's actually pretty funny. the "forgive me, forgive me" stuff was terrible. because he lost his place? he lost his place. i remember thinking,

what if he has lost his place and he doesn't recover, do i stand up and offer to help? i was his host. i remember thinking, do i say something? i thought to myself, if i get up and try to help him, that is the worst thing ever. i had no alternative to sit on my hands and try to smile. i came off stage... what did he say to you? he was gone afterwards, not surprisingly. i remember coming off stage and on my whatsapp had 83 messages. mostly filled with, help that poor man. do something, do something. i thought the peppa pig stuff was funny and his speech was quite good. i also made a really good speech that no one will remember. we just delivered it again, it is absolutely fine. let's just go back to this idea we are all post brexiteers. i am going to challenge that, plenty of people are listening and watching who don't feel

like brexiteers at all. they think it is a mistake and those who think they are pro—brexit, say we are not post brexit because all the things that were promised — a leaner, nimbler britain — have not been delivered. we had a referendum and we still don't know where to go as a country? first of all, i am a jewish boy from belfast, i would like us to move forwards, not backwards. i don't want to go back to tribes, the roundheads and cavaliers of 2016. numbertwo, i have said before, brexit was about sovereignty, not the economy. the economy hasn't played out so well. i don't know why anybody is surprised, it wasn't an economic movement, it was a sovereignty movement. and now, therefore, you say to the government, it's not a choice between curbing inflation and growth, you say be bold. for example, making people who have left the labour

force get back to work, even if it is painful? helping them get back to work, being smart about how that happens. the first one is, let's have a tax system where companies that don't invest in britain pay more tax, companies that do pay less, it was rishi sunak�*s idea, i would love it to happen. what do we do about economic activity in this country, what do we do that after covid lots of people are at home either for reasons of choice, mental health or long—term health conditions? how do we get them back because this set of politicians don't want to use immigration to plug labour shortages so we need to think boldly about childcare and all those policies. i want to come back to what you said about tribalism. do you fear that modern politics, notjust brexit, we could talk about corbyn or trump, we could talk about boris johnson, but that modern politics, fuelled by social

media, has too much become what you remember as a child — whose tribe are you in? if you look at some of the tragic events with members of parliament in the last few years, you would say so, wouldn't you? and if you read social media, every time i say the word brexit, it goes mad. so to some degree, yes. the only ray of light, i might say, again i come back to it, this is me being nice to politicians, i don't think our political parties are being led by extremists. i think the political parties are being led by one nation politicians. it mayjust be that era is coming to an end. i really hope so. because i think... i guess my experience of being thejewish boy from belfast amid the conflict, is that conflict takes you to bad places. working together takes you to goood places, prosperity takes you to goood places. i realise there will be a general

election next year so i imagine we will kick the living hell out of each other. i hope we work on an emerging consensus in britain about the balance and growth in britain and how it has to be for everybody in society. when you mention brexit, like you just have, and your social media will light up and the letters and e—mails will come to the cbi attacking you for what you have said, how do you switch off? what does tony danker do? i like to watch liverpool beat manchester united at football. hasn't happened for some time, i think. that is true. i like to watch old clips. you play in a band? i do play in a band. you are not going to play a clip? the bar mitzvah photo was enough. we started at university, now we are just a dad band, we are greyer and larger. we cannot get gigs any more so we play at each

other�*s birthday parties. and it's called ? it is called spread the word, but no—one did. your title? i don't know about that one. i think i'll share the rights on that one. it could be your motto. tony danker, thank you for being on political thinking. thank you. hello. after a cloudy start to the day across england and wales, there are signs that the weather will slowly brighten up into the afternoon. however, across northern areas we're looking at some very windy weather moving in this afternoon. the strongest winds will be running in just ahead of this cold front. there will be bringing rain to both scotland and to northern ireland this afternoon. now those winds will gust about 60 miles an hour into parts of scotland, generally

into the 40s of miles now for northern ireland and the northwest of both england and wales. so a notably blowy kind of afternoon. now those strong winds will also help break the cloud up to the east of high ground. so across parts of eastern england, to the east of the pennines, to the eastern side of wales, across the midlands, should see some breaks in the cloud and some sunny spells. it is a mild afternoon despite the windy weather, temperatures reaching as high as 12. in aberdeen, we then have a cool and showery spell of weather to start the new week with some very strong winds expected tuesday night across northern areas.

this is bbc news — welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. iam ben i am ben brown. our top stories... the british prime minister, rishi sunak, has sacked the chairman of his conservative party, nadhim zahawi, following a prolonged controversy over his tax affairs. israel's security cabinet agrees new measures in response to the deadly attack on a synagogue in eastjerusalem. i will submit to the security council additional tips that might have stepped the fight against terrorism. this includes significantly hastening and expediting the use of weapons authorised for use by civilians. a bus has plunged into a ravine in pakistan, killing