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tv   BBC Wales Investigates  BBC News  January 30, 2023 1:30am-2:01am GMT

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wales' women on the pitch... commentator: they think they've gone over! - wales score! ..proud to wear the three feathers. you know, it's a wonderful game and it's our national game. it was a dream job. charlotte wathan was hired in 2018 to help transform the women's game in wales. i believed that i could be a force for good. i believed that i could, you know, bring about some positive change. but she quit after four years, telling the wru she was sick of being exposed to bullying, sexism and sexual harassment at work. and that's really sad. um...
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the women's game had long struggled for crowds and credibility. and, in 2018, things had hit rock bottom. commentator: well, they beatl wales here at twickenham, 52-0. after 20 years working in sport, charlotte's job was to get more women and girls playing and to develop a strategy for the future. i was working as a consultant, research and insight, particularly for sports organisations. what were people telling you as you're about to... mm. ..take this step and join the wru? mm. "don't." "are you sure?" i'd heard whispers around some of the challenges the young female team within the women's programme had faced. just feeling quite ridiculed, undervalued.
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misogyny, sexism. it was... everything was always an additional hurdle. when she started herjob, she says she soon began to see it for herself. there was an attitude that it was ok to make derogatory comments to, you know, to make sexist/sexual comments around women, or about women, within groups of the organisation. it was always sort of palmed off as banter, but i think again, there's...there's a line. that line got crossed for me, personally, and i know for others. wru is always keen to push its commitment to the women's game. we're committed to making the best professional programme in the world. over the last 12 months, - we've seen some real progress in the women's game in wales. we've seen the first i professional contracts, we've seen the professional staff, the support staff-
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bolstered. while progress was being made, some in the organisation were still worried about the culture in parts of the wru. it's not a culture that likes to be challenged. marc roberts has just quit the wru after 20 years of helping to develop the men's and women's game in north wales. when i first started and i thoroughly enjoyed the experience, i think, unfortunately, the last five or six years, the culture has got worse. marc says he warned bosses about what he'd seen and heard from a number of women in the organisation. i'm aware of several instances where females have left the business or mental health has been affected and, certainly, it's part of my decision to leave welsh rugby union. were they able to complain about it?
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there's been a lack of support to some females who have had complaints, and when one person relays that story to another, there's a reluctance then to go forward and voice opinions. are you pretty satisfied that this happened because they were women? yes, 100% it was because they were women. charlotte's role was to change the game and attitudes, but says she found some too entrenched. overt references. "they're all gay, they're all. you know, it's that kind of culture. you know, or god forbid, we, you know, we show the women's game because, you know, they're going to detract from us as a brand. it was, you know, those types of things. and who was it coming out with this? was itjuniorfigures or were these senior figures within the organisation? seniorfigures and juniorfigures. senior figures...and it was... it was the lack of the game being taken seriously.
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i remember charlotte coming into the organisation and, as guilty as it makes me feel, i remember looking at her, thinking, "woman, blonde and working in women's rugby." that made me feel, "you're going to be the next target." we've spoken to another former employee about her time at the wru. she's asked us not to identify her. an actor tells her story. being from a rugby family and a rugby background, the concept of working for the wru had always been a bit of a dream. to the outside, the wru was this bright, shiny organisation. inside of it, it's just toxic. she quit in 2018 after six years at the wru and says while there was investment in the women's game, not everyone bought into the idea. some attitudes were on the pitch we're not equals.
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and women's rugby was the game for lesbians. it wasn't something they liked. it's something that was played on a sunday, on a day that didn't interfere with the men's game. sometimes that kind of language was used around the national centre of excellence about the national team. it was just the culture. but that was the view amongst some. the national centre of excellence is where wales�*s top players train and where charlotte says she witnessed worrying attitudes too, including how, in 2019, a male colleague referred to an exercise drill with young women. he referred to one of the drills in one of the sessions as the c—word drill, you know, in front of other senior members of the team. and that...it was ok. we had 17—, 18—year—olds there. and they used the c—word in front of them? and referred to the
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drill as the c—word. charlotte says she reported her concerns to bosses. we understand one of those bosses didn't recall that conversation. the man in question left the wru. she says she was told the complaint couldn't be investigated further. marc says he also reported incidents elsewhere. he says that, last march, he witnessed colleagues making jokes about child sexual abuse during a staff team—building event. very early on in that day, somebody on a bus journey to the activity referenced somebody was, um, from a private school. and because they went to a private school, there would be some kind of sexual abuse to him as a child by teachers, etc... um... i was quite shocked that that sort of terminology was used. as we got off the bus, the most senior manager on that particular journey then echoed the same statement to the same individual.
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that particular day, you know, it was unprofessional behaviour throughout, to the point where that day was actually investigated by an external hr company. marc says he told them what he'd overheard. the wru told us, "this is new information which will be followed up and acted on." women's rugby was everything i wanted to do. i remember those days when i pulled on a red jersey were some of the most wonderful days of my life. tonia antoniazzi was a wales international. she's now a welsh mp. she says it was never easy playing in the women's game, but she'd hoped, 20 years on, things would be different. there are still issues around misogyny and sexism in rugby. there is a massive problem. this is at different levels.
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three completely different people came to me with a complete... ..with concerns around governance and the way that women are being treated. but from three different perspectives, and those different perspectives is what convinced me that i needed to take this further. this is on a level of gymnastics. this is on the level of what's happened in cricket. allegations of abuse in gymnastics and racism at yorkshire cricket led to independent inquiries into those scandals. at the wru, concerns about culture were flagged in an online meeting in 2020, when marc and charlotte say they overheard a colleague make a racist comment. in a zoom meeting, one of the senior managers
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within the rugby side, we were chatting about cricket just before the start of meeting and... ..and he referred to a minority group as the p—word. well, the conversation was between the manager and the individual who used that p—word, and nothing was said. i actually brought it up and said, you know, that term was unacceptable and inappropriate. and my colleague referred to a newsagent in the village with the same term. at no stage did a senior manager stop and say, "you cannot use that term. "that is not the appropriate term." but it's not the first time that manager was accused of failing to act. according to charlotte, there was another serious incident the year before. so, i had an experience of someone referring about me in an office environment, in front of...in front of other staff, in front of other young female staff as well, um, that...they wanted to rape me. um... i remember standing in shock.
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i remember ijust carried on looking at what i was doing, going, "did ijust hearthat?" you know, "did ijust hear that?" ijust rememberfeeling, oh, you know, like sick, punched in the stomach and, you know, and everyone's laughing. and there was a senior member of staff there, and...it was funny, ha—ha. and i remember ijust left the room and i burst into tears and ifelt sick, and i thought, "crikey, is this what it's come to?" and there was a senior manager who witnessed that? any repercussions at all? no repercussions. take me back to the hotel. tie me to the bed and rape me. 0n hearing that, what's your response to those allegations? it'sjust wrong.
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it's wrong that anybody, any woman or girl should be subjected to that kind of vile, vile treatment, language in a workplace. and where it is witnessed, and those people do not put a stop to it, they are... ..they are complicit in it as well. what would you have expected to happen? i'd have expected the conversation to be shutdown completely, totally and utterly at that moment in time. charlotte decided not to report her allegations at the time. you know, i didn't go to hr on it. two reasons, i think. 0ne, because... i. . .just total apathy to, one, it being listened to, dealt with or, you know, and...
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and the fear of repercussion, you know, to me and others, i suppose, around, you know, just... life was already tough enough. but she did eventually write to the wru, detailing that allegation and others as part of a formal grievance. the wru hired a lawyer to look into her allegations, and charlotte gave them a list of potential witnesses to corroborate what she was saying. but we've discovered that a number of them were not contacted and the man she accused of saying he wanted to rape her in his hotel room wasn't interviewed as part of the grievance inquiry. he still works for the welsh rugby union. the manager who charlotte said witnessed the incident told the inquiry though he
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remembered the man accused saying that she could visit him in his hotel room, he couldn't recall the word "rape" being used. disbelief. because it's such a strong word, you know? evokes such a strong reaction, doesn't it, to most people? so, i think — i think i'm surprised if he can't recall that word being used. we've been told that a witness, identified by charlotte to the wru, was willing to make a statement, confirming that they'd seen and heard the man make the rape comments, but they were not asked to do so. with the serious nature of what i'm calling out, why wouldn't you do that? why wouldn't you find out for yourselves? ask the people that were there? but they haven't. the wru told us that charlotte's allegations remain unsubstantiated following a thorough, independent legal
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investigation. it says it takes any allegations from staff regarding behaviour, attitude and language seriously and if any allegations are substantiated, it will act swiftly as such behaviour has no place in the wru or in welsh rugby. charlotte is not the only woman to challenge the wru. the colleague who saw the signs right at the start of charlotte's time at the organisation says that she'd already told hr how bullying and sexism at work had left her feeling suicidal. this wasn't about an incident here and an incident there. it was constant undermining of me or my gender. she says it began when she returned from maternity leave
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and the manager began targeting her. i would say it was bullying. you just didn't know that day what kind of mood they were going to be in. the thought of leaving the house to go to work would bring on almost a panic attack. i was considering taking my own life because i couldn't see the way out. i went as far as to start drafting a manual for my husband on what to do in the event that i died. takes you to a very dark, dark place, where you can genuinely look at your husband and think, "you're young enough "to meet someone else and my daughter is young enough "to get another mother." but ultimately, that's the point that i got to, and that's probably at the point i reached out to hr.
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she says she was advised to put in a grievance against the manager and that she could move offices but that would still be in the same building, so she left without taking it further. to hold my hands up and to genuinely challenge what was going on was the most high—risk strategy to me. but she says she did give the name of that manager to hr. we've discovered that the same person, along with other managers, was also the subject of complaints in charlotte's case. by the early spring of 2021, charlotte says that her mental health was deteriorating. she told the wru she felt broken, the culture was toxic, and she was too ill to return to work. at my lowest point, i thought, "enough�*s enough. "i can't. "i don't want to be here any more."
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they beat me down. they won. and you just, at that point think, "there's no hope. "there's no hope," you know? "nobody wants to take this seriously." in april 2021, she began a formal grievance against the wru. with the team struggling on the pitch, the union announced it was doing an independent review of women's rugby. the wru announced it was commissioning an independent review of women's rugby. it was meant to be a long, hard look at what was going wrong. current and former players would be asked for their views. executives and coaching staff too. the aim — to move the women's game forward with a promise from the wru there would be no avoiding difficult decisions off the back of the findings.
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tonia antoniazzi took part in the review and wanted its findings published, but the wru refused. what are the welsh rugby union hiding? i believe it is too embarrassing and too damaging. no recommendations from the women's review have been published. they may have been acted on but they're not in the public domain. where is that transparency? we've seen extracts of the review�*s findings. out of 20 areas examined, strategy, players and also the culture, not a single one was said to be performing well. players at the time describe the environment and culture as draining, demoralising, frustrating. some senior staff said it was underfunded. mental health, for some, was suffering. past players described it
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as "toxic" and wanted an end to inequality, quick fixes and empty promises from the wru, which was warned that its finances and reputation were at significant risk if things didn't improve. while the authors found passion, hard work and commitment from players and staff, just three out of eight executives took part in the review. i think if there were positive outcomes of that review, you would plaster it all over everywhere and show everybody the positive outcomes. if it's a negative one, um, my opinion — a good culture, a good environment would still put it out there. marc wasn't the first to quit, warning the culture needed to change. aviva boss amanda blanc, recently voted the sunday times businessperson of the year, stepped down in late 2021 as chair of the wru's professional rugby board. what she said in her resignation speech hasn't been revealed until now.
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we've discovered she described her shock at the board asking if she had enough business experience for the role, and warned about the treatment of some women in the organisation. she said that she was beyond disappointed with the review into the women's game and that it verged on being insulting towards women. she referenced a meeting held to discuss an allegation of bullying of a female member of staff, but that the board spent most of their time talking about how to defend the man accused. and she said she was staggered to hear about an elected wru member say that women should know their place in the kitchen and stick to the ironing, and that some board members felt it unfair to take too many free tickets away from him as a sanction. she also warned that when it came to equality, diversity and inclusion, they were sitting on a ticking
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time bomb. that doesn't surprise me. i find it abhorrent that you cannot put your hands up and say what you found that was so awful and tell people what you are doing to put it right. the wru insist they have implemented change as a result of the review. it didn't comment on amanda blanc's concerns, but it did strongly refute any suggestion that the women's game has been held back by the issues described and remains committed to it now and into the future. charlotte spent a year fighting the wru over her allegations and began employment tribunal proceedings. a hearing was scheduled for this summer, where those accused would be publicly named. this was probably one of the worst experiences of my life.
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and it was dark, it was grim, and it could've cost me my life. just because i was trying to develop the women's game. the woman who said she'd faced bullying and sexism also tried taking action against the wru, which had denied any wrongdoing. i tried to take them to an employment tribunal. they bullied me by saying they would put a cost order against me because they would argue that the claim was vexatious and that as a result of that, it could amount to fees — extraordinary, extraordinary fees i would have to pay. 0n the balance of what was the most important at that time — my family and our livelihood versus trying to fix an organisation i'd left — i chose my family and my livelihood. at the time, she says the wru argued she'd left it too late to bring a claim, and that she had no grounds for one.
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it told us her case was investigated and proper procedures were followed. unless you are a woman, and — excuse the expression — but with balls and deep pockets, how on earth do you take on somebody like the wru and stand up to them without there being financial detriment, reputational detriment? there has to be an independent body set up to look at complaints. i would like to see the welsh government take the bull by the horns and develop a system that is robust enough to hold sporting governing bodies to account. um... will that happen?
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i don't know. the mp wants a senedd inquiry into the wru, on a par with yorkshire cricket. she's also written to the wru's most famous patron about what women have told her. the prince of wales needs to know that this is a real issue. the well—being and mental health of people that have worked at the wru is a concern, and it should be a concern for him. the wru said how sad it was to hear how individuals in this programme felt, and said it will continue to work with staff to ensure they feel valued and listened to. two months after we interviewed charlotte wathan, her case against the wru was settled in what both sides described as an "amicable agreement" — that means there won't be an open hearing. the wru says the settlement also prevents them from responding to charlotte's complaints in this programme. for those who've walked away
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from the welsh rugby union, there's still hope that the women's game can keep moving forward as they try to do the same. it doesn't matter how much counselling i go through to try and heal what's there but ultimately, the wru will stay as this open wound for me. i've just got to learn to live with it. i'm hoping that i give other women courage. actually standing up for yourself and saying, you know, "this isn't 0k." i want to leave a better legacy. and that's — that's my goal. and ultimately, i hope that it brings around transformational change because it could be such a wonderful organisation.
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hello. we're looking at a pretty quiet start to the new week weather—wise. there should be a lot of fine weather around this monday and the winds that were pretty keen, particularly to the north of the uk, on sunday will fall considerably lighter. and here's why — this area of high pressure pushing up from the south—west. this area of low pressure that brought the windier conditions on sunday is off towards scandinavia. still a bit of a breeze for the north and west of scotland, still one or two showers feeding in here. could be the odd one coming in off the irish sea coast early on in the day as well. but overall, monday, we're dominated by dry weather. there should be a lot of sunshine and temperatures eight to 10 degrees. high cloud, though, pushing into northern ireland later on in the day is the first signs of some weather fronts that will sweep into the north—west of the uk late monday into early tuesday. some wet weather for scotland, briefly for northern ireland.
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ends the night, that front, across northern england, feeding into wales. clear skies behind the weather front but quite a lot of showers slamming into northern ireland, but particularly western scotland on what will be a very strong westerly wind. and that's because of this low pressure centre here to the north—west of the uk. it's going to mean strong winds right the way across the uk on tuesday. but gales for western scotland and to the north of the country, too. frequent showers, wintry across the higher ground. some showers of rain for northern ireland, northern england. largely dry further south, but distinctly windy, yes. temperatures still 11, 12 to the south of the uk, but feeling chillier — just 7 degrees there, for example, in aberdeen. and then through the evening, into the early part of the night, as that centre of the low pressure goes through to the north, a real squeeze in the winds across northern scotland. severe gales, possibly damaging winds, widespread gales for scotland certainly to take us into wednesday. but off goes that low towards scandinavia for the middle part of the week and the winds become relatively lighter once again. it will be a breezy day on wednesday.
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we'll see our next weather front trying to push in to the north—west, so more cloud as the day plays out for northern ireland, for western scotland, northern england and some outbreaks of rain. but sunshine for southern and eastern areas. another pulse of rain to run through to the north of the uk on thursday. to the south, though, high pressure close by keeping things fine. and then for the end of the week, it looks like the high will come to dominate and there should be a lot of fine weather across the uk. and in terms of our temperatures, after those big extremes of last week, it looks like we're going to see a fairly average picture across the uk.
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welcome to bbc news. i'm vishala sri—pathma. our top stories: heading for the exit — the chairman of britain's governing conservative party is sacked following an investigation into his tax affairs. russian troops continue to attack the ukrainian city of kherson. three people are killed. president zelensky describes it as atrocious. translation: the enemy does not count personnel, _ and despite numerous casualties, keeps the intensity of its attack high. america's secretary of state is to visitjerusalem to try and de—escalate growing tensions between israel and the palestinians. and iran says it has foiled an unsuccessful drone attack
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on a military facility in central isfahan province.

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