now time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking. it's not every week that a political party declares that the man who led it in the last election, the man the party proposed to be our next prime minister is now considered unfit to be a member of parliament. that is what happened this week when keir starmer declared that his predecessor, jeremy corbyn, would not be representing the labour party at the next election. my guest on political thinking this week is one of those who is urging keir starmer on. steve reed, labour's shadowjustice secretary was part of a group

that tried to keep people in the labour party when many were thinking of leaving it during thejeremy corbyn years. this week he is announcing a new approach to crime, an approach that attempts to prevent crime, protect communities, he says that whenjeremy corbyn was leader, labour gave the impression they were more concerned about the criminals than they were about the victims. welcome to political thinking. thank you. when keir starmer finally announced that there was no way back forjeremy corbyn, as someone who is a veteran for the struggle inside the party, how did it make you feel? i felt relieved, is the truth. there are two reasons for this, one is the necessity for keir starmer as a leader of the party to show that he has changed the party and that he will change the country. that has been done.

for me too, my history and politics goes back to lambeth when i was first elected as a councillor, lambeth had previously been run by the hard left under ted knight. so i have seen the damage they can do and how they can alienate the public. red ted as he was known in the 1980s in the tabloids. called him part of the loony left. and he was close to corbyn. i had seen it back then, i thought it off then, we fought it off in lambeth, and we had run a pretty decent council after that by connecting back with communities. so when i saw corbyn come in as labour leader, i feared that we would see a repeat of that and we did see a repeat of that, with the anti—semitism, with the moving away from our voters and it culminated in our worst electoral defeat in december 2019 for 85 years and that is what we have had to rebuild from.

so i was heartbroken when jeremy corbyn was elected leader, because i'd seen what the hard left had done in lambeth and i am relieved we are at the end of the process and keir starmer has genuinely taken this party back, in his words made it to the political wing of the british people again which is what it needs to be. we will talk about what that means the crime and punishment, but before we do, i cannot help point out, given how dreadful it is, how did you go to the electorate and say make him our prime minister? we were faced with a choice, if you don't like the direction it's going in, do you walk off the pitch and leave it to those who you don't agree with or do you stay on the pitch and try to win his back? lets talk about what you are saying about crime when it comes to working people.

it's quite a quote i read out in the introduction, labour gave the impression they were more concerned with the criminals than their victims. in what way? i think we did give that impression. some of it was about how the party at the point was talking about... there was too much trying to understand what had led an offender into offending, which sounded like excusing their behaviour and not enough talking about how we supported victims, understood victims, understood the need, the human need for retribution. it's quite a phrase, need for retribution. you've been a victim of crime, you were involved in a mugging case a few years back, what happened? i was walking back from a barbecue, it was late in the evening, i walked around the corner in clapham in south london, two guys jumped out at me from behind the wall, put a knife at my throat, took

my bag, rifled my pockets, took my wallet, let go, punched me in the stomach and ran off. i called the police, we had a police station nearby, i knew the name of our local police officer, they came in a squad car we looked around, we couldn't find anything. later on, i got back afterwards, doing my teeth in the mirror, there was a nick on my neck where the knife had been and that is when your mind turns, thinking how much worse that could have been and you have been assaulted, they have taken things from me, they could have caused serious physical harm, yes, i did feel the need for retribution, i wasn't thinking about what had led them to do this, i thought when they have just done this to me, they are probably doing it to other people, they need to be got hold of and stopped. one way of trying to stop people

becoming victims is to get people when they are young, trying to stop them becoming, in the jargon, a career criminal. you are proposing, specifically on the issue of parenting, that in the case of someone who commits a crime, their parents could become the subject of a parenting order? what have you got in mind? the first point you say is really important, we talk about the crime escalator, serious criminal start out doing horrible criminals start out doing horrible crimes committed if you can catch them and divert them away the and divert them away through appropriate sanction and support, you can stop them from committing those crimes in the first place, you can stop a young life becoming a life of crime, more importantly, people who will never become the victims because they have been stopped. if you look at anti—social behaviour, low level offending, it absolutely scars and debilitates many communities up and down this country, where people feel the wrong people are in control of

the streets. we need a range of measures to start to tackle that, to give people back control of their own communities. one of those is parenting orders. one of the proposals we have come up is this. what this is is that you very often have parents whose kids are committing multiple offences, but the parents are not taking their parental response billeted seriously. we will allow the police to issue parental orders that will require a parent to go on a training course to learn how to better manage their kids. i have spoken to many parents in these circumstances, it's not simply punitive, because many parents in these situation are at their absolute wits end, they don't want their kids committing crimes, ending up in youth offending institutes, they want their kids to have decent life. if these are big, strapping teenage lads, is a parenting order really going to allow

parents to get control? the ages that kids start offending can be surprisingly young. ten and ii—year—olds can be offending, vanishing from home and it's at that point that you need to support the parents to get control of them. many do and there are parenting classes offered by councils, but you are talking about any different which is compulsory parenting classes. mandating them. you go along to mum and dad and say, right, little johnny is now out of control and they might say something with the word "off" in, you try to sort them out, i cannot control them, which you then do? what you then do? i've spoken to people in that situation and that is not generally what they say. parents love their kids, if the kids are tearaways, they are committing this kind of offences, then the parents don't want the doing that. they want to know how they can

better turn lives around. if we can offer more support, yes, it will be mandatory, but many parents will welcome that is my experience, they want their kids to do well in life, they do not want their kids criminalised and ending up in prison and sometimes we have to help them. you have to have a sanction? there are sanctions for breaking all sorts of orders, but the key point here is to help the parent by carrot and stick, to accept support that will turn their kids�* lives around. from speaking to parents in the circumstances, they will welcome at. would you be philosophically be interested in going futher. if you talk to criminologists, talk to people like you that used to run a council where there are high crime levels, they will be able to say, that house, that family, that flat, we know where the crime�*s coming from, even for kids as young as two, no that they commit crime, they will go on, it is feared, and commit crimes.

you could say let's intervene much earlier with those families, but they will some who say you are stigmatising them, you're labelling them. that's exactly what we did when i was leader at lambeth council. it's notjust about criminal justice, it's also about family support and youth services, the provision of positive activities for young people to do. a long time ago in 2006, over that year 06/07 three teen homicides, any number of other kids getting involved in gangs, open drug dealing on the streets outside the train stations, businesses closing down, people frightened to go into those areas, we had to do something about it. we commissioned the biggest piece of research that has been done into the causes of violent youth crime and structured a series of interventions around that. there were many of them, we don't have time to go and all of them, but one of them was early intervention with families and

supporting families. quite often that support came from better for quite often that support came better for those families if it was linked into somebody who is living the same life in the same community, living the same lives as them. so we had a programme called home start, which got parents living in a similar community, from a similar background, who had successfully parented their kids and linked them with families that were struggling and gave them advice. they have family was appointed to provide support to the family and it really made a difference. we talked about lambeth, where you grew up politically, but it's not where you grew up, you grew up in watford. let's talk about your family. from st albans, actually. a lot of people think, the south, st albans, quite posh actually. it's a commuter place for people travelling into london for often well—paid jobs. so yours was not a tough, rough, red wall sort of bringing? it certainly wasn't tough and rough i wouldn't say that. my parents are listening — i lost my dad last year, but my mum — it wouldn't be fair to characterise it

like that. what happened, there is a sort of an analogy with what happened with the community in the north, where industry was taken and nothing was put in their place. that was the red wall. we were more of a red brick, living in the south and the same circumstances didn't apply as in the former industrialised area. my family worked in a print factory in watford. my father and my uncles and aunties worked there. the intention is i would work there as well. it was the centre of the community. you thou~ht was the centre of the community. you thought that — was the centre of the community. you thought that would be your life? i - thought that would be your life? i was told this would be my life. it was told this would be my life. it was a decentjob, a secure sense of who you were, whatjob you would do. i was brought up speaking the language of printing and we did our summer holidays with people from the

factory and had christmas parties in the factory. it was our life. but it is not that _ the factory. it was our life. but it is not that you _ the factory. it was our life. but it is not that you changed - the factory. it was our life. but it is not that you changed your - the factory. it was our life. but it l is not that you changed your mind, but it closed?— but it closed? during the thatcher recession, but it closed? during the thatcher recession. as _ but it closed? during the thatcher recession, as happened _ but it closed? during the thatcher recession, as happened in - but it closed? during the thatcher recession, as happened in many l but it closed? during the thatcher- recession, as happened in many parts of the north, it closed down. and all of those people in my family that worked there lost their jobs. they had been working there for several generations, i would they had been working there for several generations, iwould have been the third generation going there if that had happened. for those people, nothing was put in its place, it was a microcos. of having a steel works closed or a pit closed down. ourwhole a steel works closed or a pit closed down. our whole community, a steel works closed or a pit closed down. ourwhole community, ourwhole life was centred around this place and people's lives fell apart if i'm honest. i5 and people's lives fell apart if i'm honest. , . , honest. is that the first time you felt political. _ honest. is that the first time you felt political, when _ honest. is that the first time you felt political, when you - honest. is that the first time you felt political, when you thought. honest. is that the first time you | felt political, when you thought in your opposition what you blame margaret thatcher for, we should say

it was owned by robert maxwell? former boss of the mirror? it made me angry. — former boss of the mirror? it made me angry. because _ former boss of the mirror? it made me angry, because i— former boss of the mirror? it made me angry, because i was _ former boss of the mirror? it made me angry, because i was a - former boss of the mirror? it made| me angry, because i was a teenager and was seeing what was going on in the country and the key was not that you should be anti—change, but there was nothing put in its place. there was nothing put in its place. there was nothing put in its place. there was no industrial strategy or training for the newjobs. people were thrown on the scrap heap. i saw talented, compassionate, caring people that i loved enormously, have their lives thrown away. i felt that profoundly and i felt a government that allows that to happen is not a government i could support and it is that time ijoined the labour party at 16. that time ijoined the labour party ati6. my that time ijoined the labour party at 16. my family voted labour. there was a reason — at 16. my family voted labour. there was a reason you _ at 16. my family voted labour. there was a reason you became _ at 16. my family voted labour. there was a reason you became more - was a reason you became more political and you were open about your politics, but not about the reason, the deep personal reason you felt angry with the conservative party.

felt angry with the conservative pa . ~ , felt angry with the conservative pa . g , ., , felt angry with the conservative pa ., party. my sexuality, i was growing u . party. my sexuality, i was growing u- a party. my sexuality, i was growing no gay and — party. my sexuality, i was growing no gay and i _ party. my sexuality, i was growing no gay and i was _ party. my sexuality, i was growing up gay and i was still _ party. my sexuality, i was growing up gay and i was still coming - party. my sexuality, i was growing up gay and i was still coming to i up gay and i was still coming to terms with it, back then it was the era of aids and you saw tv adverts with head stones collapsing and i was terrified by that. leave aside the other social pressures not to be gay, i didn't come until my 20s. but by the time i was coming to terms with that and coming to terms with who i was, there was the thatcher government enacting legislation, section 28, that was describing gay relationships as pretend family relationships, banning children being taught about sexuality in schools. kids like me growing up 93)’, schools. kids like me growing up gay, no one would speak and where do you get information from? you saw negative stereotypes. you you get information from? you saw negative stereotypes.— you get information from? you saw negative stereotypes. you talked of rurowin u- negative stereotypes. you talked of growing no in _ negative stereotypes. you talked of growing no in a _ negative stereotypes. you talked of growing up in a time _ negative stereotypes. you talked of

growing up in a time of _ negative stereotypes. you talked of| growing up in a time of tory-fuelled growing up in a time of tory—fuelled hate and showed off your wedding ring. it is only thanks to a conservative—led government you could get married. conservative-led government you could get married.— conservative-led government you could get married. most tory mps voted against _ could get married. most tory mps voted against it _ could get married. most tory mps voted against it and _ could get married. most tory mps voted against it and labour- could get married. most tory mps voted against it and labour mps i could get married. most tory mps i voted against it and labour mps got it through. but the story is, it is actually a story of why politics matters. people often say to me, i won't vote, it doesn't make any difference. it couldn't be more profound for me. there i was on marches outside parliament against section 28 and then some years later, there i was in parliament, almost the first debate i spoke in was for equal marriage and now i have a wedding ring, because last yeari have a wedding ring, because last year i got married to my long—term part dmer and new house. and what a story of transformation and change for our country and for me it couldn't be more profound that i'm allowed to openly love the person i love. but we had a government saying i wasn't allowed to be who i was, i

was second class. my experience was the conservatives in their recession allowed my family and community to sink. with no support for them to pick up the pieces or contribute in the way they wanted to. also they were trying to stop me loving the person i loved. so i'm no conservative!— person i loved. so i'm no conservative! ., _ ., ., conservative! that is clear and eo - le conservative! that is clear and oeoole often _ conservative! that is clear and people often remark _ conservative! that is clear and people often remark in - conservative! that is clear and - people often remark in parliament you sound more angry with the tories than many other people on the labour front bench. briefly, before we return to your responsibilities, there is another cause which for some people is an exact parallel with gay rights, the issue of trans rights, for some it is exactly that sort of issue, standing with, fighting for people who feel victims. there are others and i discussed it last week with the new chair of stone wall, who said it is a bit different, because trans

rights can intrude in some certain circumstances on women's rights. do you think the labour party on this has to move a bit. because it has not been clear on the broader issue that women's rights in other safe places could be at risk? has a that women's rights in other safe places could be at risk? as a shadow justice secretary _ places could be at risk? as a shadow justice secretary i _ places could be at risk? as a shadow justice secretary i have _ places could be at risk? as a shadow justice secretary i have been - places could be at risk? as a shadow justice secretary i have been clear i justice secretary i have been clear and said you won't put somebody who rapes women in a women's prison. what has happened in the labour party is people were trying hard not cause offence to the trans community and could cause concern with some women. it is always going to be about balancing rights and responsibilities, but protecting the rights and interests after safety of

women should be paramount. you said keir starmer— women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted _ women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted to _ women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted to be _ women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted to be the - women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted to be the arm - women should be paramount. you said keir starmer wanted to be the arm of. keir starmer wanted to be the arm of the british people, a phrase first used by tony blair all those years ago. do you see the position you have outlined, the position you have talked about on crime and punishment as reconnecting the labour party with the sorts of voters who had concluded that you were really about sort of avacado—eating, the language that will be used by the new tory vice chairman? sham; that will be used by the new tory vice chairman?— that will be used by the new tory vice chairman? any political party that can't win _ vice chairman? any political party that can't win the _ vice chairman? any political party that can't win the support - vice chairman? any political party that can't win the support of- vice chairman? any political party i that can't win the support of enough british voters to get into government is never going into government. you're not a party of government, you're a party of protest. we need to become a vehicle for the british people to make the change it wants to see. that is what it meant by the political wing of

british people. the it meant by the political wing of british people.— british people. the fear is you abandon your _ british people. the fear is you abandon your beliefs - british people. the fear is you abandon your beliefs to - british people. the fear is you abandon your beliefs to get i british people. the fear is you - abandon your beliefs to get elected. when keir starmer ran for leader, he was asked if he would decriminalised cannabis, h said i wouldn't immediately, making sure he was in favour of a more relaxed. i immediately, making sure he was in favour of a more relaxed.— favour of a more relaxed. i don't remember— favour of a more relaxed. i don't remember that. _ favour of a more relaxed. i don't remember that. i _ favour of a more relaxed. i don't remember that. i didn't - favour of a more relaxed. i don't remember that. i didn't hear- favour of a more relaxed. i don't i remember that. i didn't hear that. i rememberthat. i didn't hearthat. i have supported schemes where you're not arrested for it or prosecuted. aha, not arrested for it or prosecuted. lot of police forces don't arrest you for small scale possession, because they take decisions about their time. because they take decisions about theirtime. keir because they take decisions about their time. keir has appointed me shadow secretary of for justice. their time. keir has appointed me shadow secretary of forjustice. my experience of seeing kids die on the streets in london, because of their involvement with drug dealers and drugs gangs and the horror i saw in the parent's eyes tells me we are not going to be legalising drugs. but we need to give kids better

alternatives than getting involved in gangs that will destroy their lives. , ., ., ., ,, . ., , ., lives. the shadow home secretary on dru: oli lives. the shadow home secretary on drug oolicy and _ lives. the shadow home secretary on drug policy and lots _ lives. the shadow home secretary on drug policy and lots beside, - lives. the shadow home secretary on drug policy and lots beside, she - drug policy and lots beside, she decided she wanted to say what she had done when she was younger and she had smoked cannabis, do you think we have a right to know the answer to that question? you think we have a right to know the answer to that question? you have a riaht answer to that question? you have a ri . ht to answer to that question? you have a right to ask — answer to that question? you have a right to ask it. _ answer to that question? you have a right to ask it, yeah. _ answer to that question? you have a right to ask it, yeah. i _ answer to that question? you have a right to ask it, yeah. i did _ answer to that question? you have a right to ask it, yeah. i did once - answer to that question? you have a right to ask it, yeah. i did once at i right to ask it, yeah. i did once at university. but i didn't like it and i didn't do it again. i have never smoked cigarettes. it is a thing i regret. fin smoked cigarettes. it is a thing i rearet. ,., . , smoked cigarettes. it is a thing i rearet. _ �* regret. on drug policy, you're clear. i couldn't _ regret. on drug policy, you're clear. i couldn't help - regret. on drug policy, you're clear. i couldn't help noticing | regret. on drug policy, you're i clear. i couldn't help noticing you also talk of something interesting, also talk of something interesting, a trauma—informed politicaljustice a trauma—informed political justice system. a trauma—informed politicaljustice system. start by saying what that means? it system. start by saying what that means? ,., , system. start by saying what that means? , ~ system. start by saying what that means? , ,, ., ., , means? it sounds like “argon. it is how do means? it sounds like “argon. it is howdo you — means? it sounds like “argon. it is how do you prevent i means? it sounds like jargon. it is how do you prevent crime - means? it sounds like jargon. it is how do you prevent crime at i means? it sounds like jargon. it is| how do you prevent crime at source and stop it from happening, so

people don't become criminals through their lives. if you look at a lot of hardened criminals or lower level offender, it often stems from experience early in life, adverse childhood experiences. that means if a kid is born into a, a baby is born into a family where there is domestic violence happening and as they develop consciousness, they see violence, or there is a parent addicted to drugs, who can't give them the love and attention that they need when they need it. that affects that child's cognitive and emotional development and it can affect their sense of right and wrong. so they don't have the same sense of right and wrong as most other people. that leads them to be more likely to go into crime. by

tackling that trauma, family support, helping to stop those traumatic experiences becoming hard wired into a brain, you can make it less likely that they offend. isn’t less likely that they offend. isn't there almost _ less likely that they offend. isn't there almost a _ less likely that they offend. isn't there almost a contradiction between talking about the trauma of someone who carries out a crime and on the other hand saying, look, we mustn't pay too much attention to what causes crime, we have got to worry about the victims? ihla causes crime, we have got to worry about the victims? no contradiction, because what _ about the victims? no contradiction, because what we _ about the victims? no contradiction, because what we are _ about the victims? no contradiction, because what we are saying - about the victims? no contradiction, because what we are saying is i about the victims? no contradiction, because what we are saying is that l because what we are saying is that in some circumstances, an individual has had these experiences early on in their life, goes on to offend. but most do not. so there is an element of choice here. you know, people making bad choices, who go on to cause harm to society, we do need to cause harm to society, we do need to deal with that choice they have made. but as i was saying about my experience, for all i wanted punishment for the people that held me up with a knife, i would rather never have been held up with a

knife. so if and i don't know their backgrounds, if there is an opportunity to intervene earlier why would you not do that? because you're stopping people becoming victims of crime. aha, you're stopping people becoming victims of crime.— you're stopping people becoming victims of crime. a slogan could sum this u - , victims of crime. a slogan could sum this no. tongh _ victims of crime. a slogan could sum this no. tough on _ victims of crime. a slogan could sum this up, tough on crime... _ victims of crime. a slogan could sum this up, tough on crime... tough i victims of crime. a slogan could sum this up, tough on crime... tough on | this up, tough on crime... tough on the causes of crime? it this up, tough on crime... tough on the causes of crime?— the causes of crime? it is, you're riaht, the causes of crime? it is, you're right. that _ the causes of crime? it is, you're right. that was — the causes of crime? it is, you're right, that was tony _ the causes of crime? it is, you're right, that was tony blair's i the causes of crime? it is, you'rel right, that was tony blair's phrase 30 years ago. but we need to take that slogan and make it meet the future, the challenges of today and the years to come. and... future, the challenges of today and the years to come. and. . ._ the years to come. and... you're aoologetic _ the years to come. and... you're apologetic about _ the years to come. and... you're apologetic about it _ the years to come. and... you're apologetic about it being - the years to come. and... you're apologetic about it being a i the years to come. and... you're apologetic about it being a a i apologetic about it being a a reworking. do you call yourself a blairite. i reworking. do you call yourself a blairite. ., ., ., , blairite. i “oined the labour party at 16 blairite. ijoined the labour party at 16 before _ blairite. ijoined the labour party at 16 before any _ blairite. ijoined the labour party at 16 before any heard _ blairite. ijoined the labour party at 16 before any heard of- blairite. ijoined the labour party at 16 before any heard of tony i at 16 before any heard of tony blair. i respect tony blair and i learned from him.—

blair. i respect tony blair and i learned from him. bringing this full circle, do learned from him. bringing this full circle. do you _ learned from him. bringing this full circle, do you understand _ learned from him. bringing this full circle, do you understand why i learned from him. bringing this full| circle, do you understand why some people this week who supported jeremy corbyn find that hard to take, 20 years ago he was out on the streets campaigning against the iraq war, a war pursued by tony blair, the broad point would bejeremy corbyn's analysis proved to be right and a whole host of issues and tony blair's proved to be wrong. ida. i blair's proved to be wrong. no, i don't agree _ blair's proved to be wrong. no, i don't agree with _ blair's proved to be wrong. no, i don't agree with that. _ blair's proved to be wrong. no, i don't agree with that. the i blair's proved to be wrong. no, i don't agree with that. the tony i don't agree with that. the tony blair won three elections in a row and transformed the country and made it stronger and wealthier and improved schools. jeremy corbyn lost two elections, and left labour unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank — unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. _ unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. it _ unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. it is _ unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. it is not _ unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. it is not a - unelectable. no comparison. steve reed thank you. it is not a phrase he would use, but there is a growing sense that labour is going back to the future, back, they say, to a connection with working class voters

who the party was founded by and to represent. there is of course a danger that those very voters may say, that isn't what you were saying to us four year ago when you were arguing forjeremy corbyn to be our next prime minister. how that place out could shape much of the next yearin out could shape much of the next year in british politics. thanks for watching. hello again, over all the weather is going to be brighter today across england and wales, with some sunny spells. northern ireland stays cloudy, but in scotland it is turning increasingly wet in the north and west where strong winds will develop ing in the afternoon.

gusts up to 50mph. mild across the board. tonight it gets windy in northern scotland with gusts up to 70 million and could bring some localised disruption. here as a band of rain works in. to the south the winds will pick up with so drizzle in western areas. but a mild night with temperatures for a few of you staying into double figures. a mild start to the day on monday. again with extensive cloud and some drizzle in western areas. but mild and temperatures up to 16 in eastern england.

this is bbc news. welcome, if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. our top stories: the us secretary of state says china is considering supplying weapons and ammunition to russia for its war against ukraine. we have seen them provide non—lethal support to russia for use in ukraine. the concern that we have now is based on information we have that they are considering providing lethal support. borisjohnson urges rishi sunak not to drop the northern ireland protocol bill — as speculation mounts of a compromise over post—brexit arrangements. a uk—based iranian broadcaster which has covered anti—government protests in iran extensively says it's had to suspend its operations

in the uk following threats against its journalists.