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tv   Political Thinking with Nick...  BBC News  February 25, 2023 8:30pm-9:01pm GMT

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this is bbc news, the headlines... millions of nigerians have been voting in their country's most competitive election since military rule ended there more than two decades ago. security fears and logistical problems are being blamed for delays to voting. the uk and the european union appear to be on the brink of finalising a new deal on post—brexit trading rules for northern ireland. downing street says talks have been "positive", while the irish prime minister said they were "inching towards a conclusion". china's plans for peace in ukraine cause ripples around the world. president zelensky says he wants to hear more, and the leader of russia's key ally belarus announces plans
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to fly to beijing. a winter storm brings rain and snow to southern california, the likes of which hasn't been seen there for more than three decades. there are also flood warnings in coastal areas. you are watching bbc news. now it's political thinking with nick robinson. hello, and welcome to political thinking. my guest this week shows how one person armed with passion, determination and a mobile phone, can force politicians, companies and regulators to listen. kwajo tweneboa tweeted pictures of the terrible state of the flat in which he and his sisters lived in, and which his father died in. it was riddled with damp and mould and infested with cockroaches and mice.
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he enlisted his neighbours on his south london estate in his fight for decent living conditions, and due to a growing media profile is now able to help people in social housing all over the country. kwajo is just 2a years old, and he only graduated from university this week. kwajo, welcome to political thinking. thank you for having me on. and congratulations on graduating. thank you. can you take in how much your life has changed over the past couple of years? no, when i do get the opportunities to sit back and actually think about it, it does blow my mind, that all of this happened in such a short space of time. i mean, 18 months or thereabouts. and i always wanted it to progress in that way because of the cause. did i think it would happen so soon? absolutely not. so it has been a complete 180 of where i was only a few years ago. we are going to talk about the issue, we are going to talk about how you became the campaigner you are. but before we do, just give us a sense, what is your life like? what is a typical day,
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a typical week like for kwajo? busy! no two days are the same. it really isn't. like, today already i've had two meetings before our meeting, and it's like that most days. some days are quieter than others. that's meeting with tenants in social housing? yeah, tenants, tenants in social housing, i met with one already today, and a chief executive for a housing provider. and i'm meeting and speaking to tenants on a daily basis. some days are a lot busier than others. i mean, there was a day only a few months ago when i had 30 tenants reach out on that single day about their poor living conditions that needed help. and then as well as that i also do talks and speak to groups on behalf of my campaign, and my campaigning work. and come here to westminster to meet ministers? yes, yes, politicians. and politicians. yeah. it's crazy. let's go back to how it all began. you are in a flat in mitcham in south london.
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do you remember a moment when you looked round that flat and realised just what the terrible conditions you were living in were? yeah, i did, i did. and i think it was just before things changed. and when i had a missing ceiling on my front room, because that happened for a period overwinter. no ceiling at all? yeah. so it's a town house, three floors, and the middle floor is the front room. and that ceiling began to cave in because of a leak and it had to be taken down, so it was just beams above it. and you could see daylight out of the brickwork. and it wasn't dealt with over the winter period, many months. and i rememberjust going, being stood there and looking at it and thinking, i can't... like, how can anyone be paying rent to live in this, never mind me and my family? but it was the case, having mice, having cockroaches and that, it was a daily nightmare. no one wants to live with vermin in their home. i guess you can only imagine the impact that has on your mental health,
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as well as not having a bathroom to be able to use, or a kitchen that's over 100 years old and rotting, or thereabouts, near 100 years old, but completely rotting and not fit for purpose. it was, i can only describe it, a nightmare. i mean, it was described as the contractor, they wouldn't even let animals live in those conditions. and that was embarrassing to hear. but it's when your father, kwaku, fell ill, and had to be nursed in those conditions, that i get the sense you first began to think that you had to fight this. yeah, when my dad was diagnosed with oesophageal cancer stage one, i think i was very naive in thinking, no one around us had ever become ill or diagnosed with cancer or passed away near me, so i had never experienced that, or grief or anything like that. and i was naive in the sense that i thought, well, it's lucky we found it at stage one. i didn't realise how aggressive the cancer was, and he did progress very rapidly to stage four in the space of a year, and he went from walking around, being independent, doing his normal
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day to day routine, to not even being able to swallow his own saliva, never mind eat or walk, so he was completely bedbound. and watching him in those conditions and watching the district nurses come in three times a day to feed him in those sorts of conditions, and just the disgust and horror on theirface, and then asking us questions about the conditions that he was in. even up until today it makes me feel guilty, for the fact that he was in that condition. but now i'm able to look at it from a bigger picture and see that it wasn't our fault. it was the fact that we were being kept here. 0ur provider knew that these were the circumstances and he was having to live in there. 0urfight was trying to get him better at the time. that was our priority. unfortunately that didn't happen. eventually you post photos on social media. you get picked up by the media itself, and you get some attention, but before that, had you had contact with clarion? they are the big housing group that are your landlords still to this day, and the biggest, aren't they, in the country? yeah, yeah. i think 350,000 people,
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more than that, live in homes that are run by clarion. so had you had contact before it went public? yeah, idid. i complained, i rang up, i spent more time — and i can say this now because i worked in a school opposite my house — and i spent more time in my office on the phone trying to get through to clarion than i did actually doing myjob on some days. and i can say it now because i'm not there and my head teacher now, my ex manager, knows that. not only that, by the way, but your head teacher said to a school leavers�* assembly, kwajo will change the world. 0bviously pretty proud of you. yes, yes. she was. she used to actually be my old re teacher, so we have a very, very good relationship, and she was as horrified as anyone when she found out the conditions i was having to live in, whilst working there. so, when you're e—mailing, when you're calling, are people being kind? are theyjust fobbing you off? it was a mixture. the majority of it was you just felt
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like you were being spoken down to, and that again, you should be grateful for what you have, and they will get round to you when they're ready. and that they're busy. so when you decided to tweet the photographs, which are shocking when you see them, did you have any idea that this would explode on social media, or is itjust getting it out of your system? i had nothing left. i had no other option, no one knew the conditions that we were having to live in. why? because we felt a huge sense of shame. but i was so angry that day because i'd phoned my provider, and spoken to someone to ask where are they, they were supposed to come out and carry out works. and they were so rude to me on the phone and dismissive, and then hung the phone up on me, that i said, this is where things change. i'm no longer going to contact you, i said, next it will be a journalist. and my thought was the way i do that is by exposing the situation we are having to live in. i have to be vulnerable in that sense. and yes, we might be ashamed, we might get absolute backlash for it, but we have nothing
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else to lose. there is no other option for us, because they are simply not listening. so i went around and took photographs of inside our home and videos, i posted that, whilst i was at work. and in the space of a few hours itjust blew up. and then you went to your neighbours and tried to enlist them in all of this as well. when you knock on the door of people you don't know, not your immediate neighbours, but the people on the estate, did they look at you as if, god, who are you? what are you doing here?! no, it was quite the opposite. the reason i did that, the reason i went round to the estate, and i wasn't necessarily going to in the beginning, but my provider put out a statement, and it was something along the lines of, "we are sorry kwajo feels as though him and his family haven't received the service that they deserve," after knowing about my dad passing away and all of that. and that angered me, and i said to myself, if that's the game we're going to play, so be it. so i made the decision i was going to go around my whole estate after work that evening. why did those words anger you so much? because i thought my dad had died in those conditions. you had people coming in my home
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saying it wasn't even fit for animals to live in. i had... the provider said that? it was contractors that were sent out by the provider to carry out work. so it was my kitchen, and it was to deal with the mice. and he apologised and he was sincere about it, and he was like, i'm so sorry you are in these conditions. he didn't know about my dad. but my provider clarion did. and that's what frustrated me the most because i was like, we are not going to do this. my dad has died and still you are saying, "we're sorry, kwajo." it feels as though he hasn't received that service. you just thought they were saying what they needed to say? exactly. deal with the publicity. yeah. i knew it was much worse than this. i'm not going to pull the ladder up behind me. and i said, i know i'm tired after work but i'm going to go round every single home and my estate. and what i did, because at that time i wasn't a campaigner and no one knew of me like that, is i printed letters in the school, and my school was good and said, print as many as you need to. and i printed 500 and whatnot and knocked on people's doors and posted them, spoke to tenants that i could, and it was after school
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so i put the letters in. and by the time i'd done a full circle of the estate, my phone was already blowing up with tenants sending me videos, pictures, complaints, saying, please highlight it. it is really bad. and people are living in, on that estate, far worse conditions than me and my family were living in. and that gets you onto the tv news, and that gets the attention of the housing minister, michael gove. yes, yes, it did. now, his staff, his officials got in touch with you. there were various mps. the mayor of london i was trying to reach out to. various others at the time, i can't remember all of them. but i wasn't really getting anywhere with it. and things began to grow, and all of a sudden the secretary of state's team reached out, and at first i thought something, some sort of scam, or... you were suspicious? i didn't believe it, yeah. i was suspicious. what, you thought it might not be his staff at all? no, i didn't. you thought it was a joke or a scam? yeah, yeah, ithought some sort ofjoke. and then i read through the e—mail and there was a bit of a back
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and forth and then they said, he's seen your tweets and he's seen the things you've been highlighting, notjust about my estate and my home, but i've been around at this point and highlighted others. and that he wanted to speak to me to meet with me. would i be up for it? and i thought, absolutely. the cause is the most important thing and ultimately the change is going to come from the government, that's the only place it can. and i expected that there was going to be... there was this perception that i have, and i think a lot of people, of politicians, and you think they are there to toe a line, and i thought there was going to be a head to head and i was going to have to justify why it is that this needs to change. so i was surprised. did you prep for it, though? idid, yeah. did you prep for that confrontation? yeah. you put on a suit for the occasion? no, i didn't. i didn't put on a suit. i went exactly like how i normally would. i went in my tracksuit. i don't know how often people go into the home office wearing a tracksuit but i said at the end of the day the reason i'm coming here is not based on what it is i'm wearing, but what it is i'm here to say.
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what struck people? because many of your followers, i'm going to suggest, are probably not natural conservative supporters, and not necessarily natural fans of michael gove either. but when he lost his job, he's coming back again now, but he lost his job at one point, you tweeted in defence of him. sort of a, "say what you like about him, but..." kind of message, wasn't there? yeah, and the reason i did that was to express my worry. that was my primary reason i tweeted that tweet. and my concern. and i got a huge backlash for it. the biggest amount i think i've had so far, and people were beginning to question my ability, my ability to campaign and do the work i'm doing. and that i found really disheartening. and it was a bit depressing to read all of that, because the point... people were overseeing the point i was trying to make. which was what? what did you want to get over? the reason i tweeted that was because i was worried that borisjohnson got rid of michael gove for his own personal reasons and for personal gain. the reason i was worried now
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was because this jeopardises any progress that was made in terms of the progression on social housing, the regulation. and what is it that you've seen or what has he done that has made, if you still think this, made you think, here's a guy i can do business with? listened, first and foremost. didn't come out on the defensive, like i would have expected. and i was ready to go head to head. that wasn't the case. and actually, i went in there with a set of, a list of points that i thought would help in terms of fixing this housing crisis, and i put them on the table. and he listened to them, took them into consideration, and at that point i saw that some of those are going to be included into regulation that's set to come out hopefully later this year. there's something called awaab�*s law, isn't there? yes. after a terrible case in rochdale, little two—year—old awaab who died because of the reaction of his lungs to the damp and the mould. yeah, and that was, so that law came out because of the campaigning work of his family. but in terms of regulation,
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and the regulators and various other things, i did suggest it, and he did take it on board, which is what people didn't see. and the reason i tweeted that was because i'm very... if things aren't going right, if a politician isn't doing what they are supposed to be doing, i'm very happy to call them out on that, and i've been very vocal and i've done it online before. but i think it's also important to be as transparent as possible, especially for the benefit of tenants out there living in disrepair and say when i believe things are starting to look like they are going right, and when i am worried and concerned. so, you meet michael gove and you've come with things to say to him. and you'vejust said you did think he listened. is there an example of something you proposed he did that you're pleased with? yeah, so one of the points i wanted to raise, and i did my research and knew he had been a part of education, and i worked in a school, so i wanted to look for an analogy that worked. so in terms of regulation, which i wasn't happy with at that point, i said i'd like to see the regulators operate
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0fsted—style inspections, and that's to go in from the top to the bottom and regulate properly as opposed to just speaking to the landlords and getting their opinion, not speaking to any tenants, because that's what happened in my case, when i reported my landlord to the regulator on my estate. and i wasn't happy at all. and he took that on board and he completely understood that analogy that i was trying to give. and he said, absolutely. because what i said was, 0fsted wouldn't ring up a head teacher of a school, say, "how are you doing?" the head teacher turns round and said, "we're great, we're amazing, here's an outstanding..." that's not the case. they go and look for themselves, top to bottom. that's what regulation is, that's what regulation in housing should be. and he seems to have taken that on board. you think that will now happen? yes, yes. it's been mentioned as part of the regulation, but again we have to know how it's going to be enforced and how strict it's going to be when it is enforced. but i was glad to see that. you talked of how you felt when you got that backlash. did you at any stage think, enough? i've got into the shark—infested waters of politics, people liked me
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when i was just saying things that were bad, but as soon as i try to do anything about it, people don't like it very much. yeah. did you think, enough? i can go and be a student, have a few beers, go dancing, have a life? yeah, idid. there were questions of that, and i did start to doubt it. i started to feel like, what's the point, especially when i was getting backlash from a lot of people that supported me and supported the work that i'd done, and said how great it was, but now all of a sudden a few people are turning around and saying, well, they started questioning my campaigning, saying i'm naive, i don't know what i'm doing, i don't know what i'm talking about, when that's completely not the case, and they've completely misread what it is that i'm trying to say. and i wasn't fully feeling great at that point too. i mean, people only see a small percentage of the work that happens online, or what i choose to show people. they don't necessarily see what's going on, and the hard side of things behind the scenes. hard because you're seeing images, you're reading stories, you're hearing stories that
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are pretty hard to take? right, exactly that. when you're hearing people are dying, whether that be of cancer like my dad, they've got terminal illnesses, they've been injured in their homes, and you're hearing that day in, day out, it's difficult, especially less than three years after my own dad passed away of similar conditions, it is very, very hard. so to then have that on top ofjust backlash, and i'm very thick—skinned, but to have that, ijust thought to myself... i thought to myself, can i continue? should ijust stop now? am i pushing myself too far? but then i realised i've come so far and a lot of progress has been made that may have not necessarily been made in the past, and will i be doing myself, notjust myself, but other families out there going through what me and my family have been through, a disservice by stopping now? how do you protect yourself? because it must be all too easyjust to look at that phone late at night, there's another photograph, there's another story, and they believe you can
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make a difference now. so it's not only that you're seeing the horror, but it's "kwajo, come, do something, help me, make this better." yeah, it's a lot of pressure. it's difficult and i haven't found the answer to that, i don't think. no one puts more on me than me. even when i went to ghana i was taking calls from tenants over here whilst i was supposed to be on holiday, and ifind it hard to switch off. i feel guilty if i can't get back to people, but the reality is i get hundreds, if not thousands of messages now from tenants, and i can't get back to absolutely everyone. why? because i'm a human being and i still have to try and clean my house and do the normal things that normal people have to do whilst trying to juggle that with my campaigning work. but the change i can make is trying to get change for as many people as possible at government level. sounds like you're a man pondering, what, a career in politics? i don't think... to even talk about that, you know, and when i was younger i never
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thought i would get into politics. but since doing this work, i've been telling myself that sometimes if you want change you have to be the change and you have to go in there and try your best in order to do that. does that mean council, a member of parliament, mayor? who knows? i mean, the idea of mayor would be... would be nice, notjust because of the title, but because of the work that can be done. and notjust housing, but other areas that i don't think have been prioritised or dealt with in the right way up until this point. and i think i come from a different perspective than some other politicians, or different backgrounds. and i don't think there's enough representation. we talk about representation and diversity, and it's very much a tick—box exercise in westminster. we talk about race, we talk about background and those sorts of things. what we don't take into consideration is class, and i don't think there's any class diversity in westminster at all. i think there's more class diversity in a loaf of bread then
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there is in westminster. if you go for politics, do you know which party you'd be in? hmm... i've tried to keep my politics out of the work that i do now, but i have to say politically i'm disappointed by all parties and i've made that very, very clear. i think on one hand, taking out housing, i've been, and i think a lot of people up and down the country, have been disappointed by the conservatives for not just the last year but many years. just because you work with michael gove doesn't mean you're a tory. yes, yes. but then on the other end you've got labour, who i've gone and i've publicly been disappointed with, and i've put that on social media, where i don't think they are doing enough to represent the people that labour once upon a time represented, and people from my background and working class backgrounds believed in. what would you say to some people listening to this who'd say, look, he'll learn, you can't work the system, you have to overthrow the system? basically, the real problem here, they would argue, is the very constructs of society, capitalism, the way
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the rules are done. any sympathy with that, or do you believe in the end that working in the system can work? sometimes you need radical change, i think. and to an extent i do believe that. but ultimately i think if i want change now i have to work the system because that change comes from those in power. and i've made it very clear. i've made it very, very clear, it doesn't matter who is in power, if it's conservatives or labour or who is willing in westminster to tackle this issue of poor housing. i'm willing to work with them, whoever is willing to take it on. at the moment it's michael gove, but like i mentioned earlier, if it was labour, and they were in power, i'd be saying and doing the exact same things i'm doing now, because ultimately that comes above my political opinion. all these people are writing to you. is there a case you look back on and think, i feel good about that one, that's something i'm proud of? there's many, there's many.
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the one i can think of in particular was when it was last year, when i went up to birmingham and i went to visit a tenant who happened to work in the nhs. her mum was elderly and every single wall and door in that home was covered in black mould and damp. and her mum had recently had a stroke, blind, on a hospital bed in the front room. and she told me, she broke down and cried and said, "i'm worried my mum's going to die in these conditions and i can't help her." and i raised it on social media and within a matter of days she was moved out. and in a few months they were found permanent accommodation which they were so happy with, they had a garden and everything. and she was just so grateful. and i said, don't even thank me, this shouldn't be happening. you shouldn't have gone through this for the last ten years, and it made me feel good. no money value can be put on that. that's the satisfaction i get and why i continue to do what i do. that's the sole reason. it must have brought it all back for you, though. yeah, it did. because i always go back to my dad.
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i wasn't able to help him, so being able to go through those situations and helping other families and seeing them come out on the other side, it brings me some sort of relief, yeah. has it occurred to you, you might have much more power if you carry on being a housing campaigner than if you become just another politician? yes, yeah, it has. i mean, housing will always be something i'm campaigning on. i would like the change to come about and me not have to do it as much, but i will always be there to put pressure on providers, on politicians, landlords. but who knows, i haven't decided as of yet exactly what i'm going to do. but for now, i'm kwajo, housing campaigner. and i intend to be so until it's sorted. we began by saying how much your life had changed in the last two years. how do you keep yourself grounded? i mean, you make a documentary for channel 4, you're surrounded by people who live a completely different life from yours. you know, you're in a world when you come to westminster of people in suits.
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how do you keep yourself grounded and not thinking, perfectly reasonably, i'd like a bit of that? because part of me doesn't. in the sense that i know where i'm from. i am very grounded in the sense of the people around me, my friendship group hasn't changed since i started. they keep me very, very grounded. you're still in the same flat. still in the same flat. slightly better than it was. yeah, i mean, they've had to carry out repairs. i would have hoped! i've still got issues with mould in my house at the moment, but that i'm sure will be dealt with. but in terms of my friendship group, where i am, it's no different to where i was two years ago, not taking into consideration, obviously, i'm on here speaking with you now, and i do go to westminster and i do talk and speak to politicians. i still remember where i'm from and my life in that sense hasn't changed much. unsurprisingly, too, i know i'm here doing these talks, and meeting politicians and going out and about and being
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on various programmes, but there's times at home that i'm just alone, and i like being alone. i like being locked away and i keep myself to myself as much as i can, so i haven't changed in that sense. and don't really want to. was your head teacher right? is kwajo going to change the world? i'd hope so. even if it's a bit. i mean, i always said in the beginning, if i could help one person, and one family, even if it was just my next—door neighbour, then it's a job well done. and i've managed to do that so far. and now that i've sort of built this platform i want to help as many people as possible because i've climbed up that ladder and i want to help as many people up it has possible. kwajo tweneboa, thank you very much forjoining me on political thinking. thank you. hello.
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it was quite a chilly day, with variable amounts of sunshine and one or two fleeting showers here and there. how about tomorrow? well, sunday is going to feel a little less cold. we think the winds won't be quite as strong, and also a little more sunshine expected in some parts of the country, particularly in the south. so here's that high pressure saturday evening and into the early hours of sunday. it's right over us. and you can see that chilly dry air circling around that area of high pressure. and it's the dry air that has made it feel particularly chilly. but dry air doesn't necessarily mean all that sunny, farfrom it. you can see the clouds streaming in off the north sea and they'll continue to do so. these are the clouds that are bringing one or two light showers. nothing prolonged or heavy. and we are generally talking about clear skies overnight and also a touch of frost, obviously, where the sky is clear this time of the year. minus three in the lowlands of scotland. many towns and cities around freezing. but the north sea coast, exposed to the breeze, should be just about frost free. so starts off quite sunny across many western and northern areas.
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central areas too. it does look as though it will be sunnier across the southern half of england and wales tomorrow. not completely clear blue skies, but in the north east of england, we think thicker cloud at times and also one or two showers. similar temperatures, seven to nine degrees celsius. but remember, the winds will be a little bit lighter. so i think it will feel closer to those values, and that high pressure is very much there on monday, again centred over scotland, but this time again changes in wind direction mean that areas of cloud will drift into other parts of the country. so i think on monday it looks as though it's more england and wales and maybe eastern scotland that will be pretty overcast, and also one or two drizzly showers here and there. and again, the temperatures aren't changing. they are hovering around the average for the time of the year, which is eight degrees celsius. so that was monday. how about tuesday, wednesday, thursday into friday and even into the weekend? very little change, in fact the jet stream split around the area of high pressure.
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but in the first week of march, we are at least anticipating the possibility of things turning a little bit colder. so perhaps winter's not over yet, but in the short term, or at least this week and into the weekend, it's a case of very little change. bye— bye.
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