against the government's planned judicial reforms. and prince harry describes writing his memoir as an act of service — he hopes that sharing details will help others. now it's time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking, a conversation rather than a news interrogation. my guest this week is an mp whose heroes have included tony benn, arthur scargill, and borisjohnson. he is a man who, depending on your point of view, tells it like it really is, or relishes insulting those unable to fight back.

whether it's telling people who are struggling to make ends meet that they should learn to shop cheaply and cook for themselves, nurses that have got no need to use a food bank, or refugee charities that they are just as bad as people smugglers. he is lee anderson, former num member, miner, labour councillor, now proud mp for his hometown of ashfield in nottinghamshire, and deputy chairman of... the conservative party. it has been quite a journey. lee anderson, welcome to political thinking. you have not created a controversy for a few weeks now, have you been neutered, have they caged you in this newjob? well, no, two weeks ago when i got thejob i was on a home affairs select committee visit to uruguay on the legalisation of drugs, and then i think the week after we were on recess so this is my first full week back, not been any controversies,

i don't think, this week, but i keep looking at my phone for updates to see what i have said and who i have upset. joking apart, do you relish the controversies, do you plan them or do you just say what you think? nothing is planned, nick, what i say is not controversial, i don't think it is. it may be controversial to the bbc, it may be controversial to the mainstream media, it may be controversial to the people in parliament, i am saying what i believe most people in my constituency think, and when i get home on a thursday people come out to me as i walk up home from the train station and say, lee, you're saying what we're thinking, keep doing it. the reason i was joking you have been caged or neutered is that you founded something, you chaired the blue—collar conservatives, it is all about tax cuts, as i understand it, about demanding control of immigration, for voters like the ones you represent in what we now call the red wall, but you are backing a man who doesn't believe, as far as we can tell, in those two things, certainly hasn't delivered them yet,

so that's why i suggested to you maybe you have been caged or neutered? absolutely not, i left the blue—collar as chair because i have got this new role within the party, rishi is a low tax politician, he has told me that to his face, but he has inherited a rum deal, we've gone through two years of covid, the war in ukraine, we've got lots of debt, over £500 billion spent of taxpayers�* money, we've got to balance the books, and i'm pretty sure and i'm confident for next year, i think rishi has just proved with the northern ireland issue... so, for those people, you will know, plenty of tories who actually said, he's a socialist, rishi sunak. i have interviewed tories who say that, and you were a borisjohnson backer, you were a liz truss backer, you now think it is not that you have been neutered, it is that those people got rishi sunak wrong? no, there is that much talent within the labour... nearly said labour party there! within the conservative party, that we have got some really good people... old habits die hard!

yeah, well, that is true. rishi is a smart man. let's talk more about politics, i want to talk about where those old habits, where they came from and why you were a labour man and why you went on to be a tory. you talk about being a proud ashfield man, born, brought up, all yourfamily. for people who don't know it, what do you mean by that, what sort of place is it, what are you proud of? ashfield is a coal mining constituency built on coal and textiles. and your dad was a miner? yes, all my family were coalminers. all the male members. they weren't many females worked down the pit, there weren't any. ifollowed my dad into the pits when i left school and i was incredibly proud to do thatjob. and your dad, traditional working—class, hard—working, i imagine, demanding? labour man, through and through, trade unionist, been on strike �*72, �*74 and �*81i, he's got the badge. he did all that. because he thought it was right what he was doing, to protect hisjob, to protect his community, and then ao—odd years later he finds

himself voting for me at a general election. so, in your house, then, i don't imagine there is a lot of debate about politics, presumably politics meant labour, and the union? it did, in the �*70s, growing up, and i tell this story often, it was scargill, skinner, tony benn, that was our political diet, that was what we listened to on the wireless and watched on the tv, and just a few miles away, chesterfield town hall, sometimes on a friday night, i would go and watch tony benn speak. i can remember going to one event, i think it was tony benn, scargill and skinner, all on the same bill. and as a 16—year—old, listening to those three people speak, you come out of that building feeling 20 feet tall. it doesn't matter what they've said, it's just the delivery, they were absolutely superb. but it must have mattered what they said, to a certain extent. what was it that appealed then, was it a sense that they were fighting for your class, was it

the community, was itjust, at that stage, a visceral dislike of the tories? it was the con trick, i think, they were pretending they were fighting for our class, i think. what did you believe at the time at.. i believed it because in a coalfield community, a constituency where most men worked down the pits, we saw the nasty tories as taking away our pits and our livelihood, and you go to these rallies and these are speeches and you've got real important people, who you think they're important, like skinner, tony benn and scargill, and they are telling us the same message, and the people we have got to blame is the nasty tories, so you come out, you are a tory hater, you hate maggie and you want to start the revolution. and did you hate maggie? yeah! yes, with a passion. if i had been in your house, you would have said some potentially unrepeatable things in your house? yes, we was conditioned to, it was a coalmining community, things have been taken away from you, who do you blame? you blame the nasty tories, maggie was leading the tories, that just follows. that was most households.

has it taken you a long time to forgive the tories? because you have still been critical of what you think margaret thatcher did? iforgive her, i look back now and i will repeat the story every week, this country needed margaret thatcher in the �*70s and �*80s, the country was being held to ransom, the unions were running amok. we thought it was unfair because we suffered, we got the brunt of it but you cannot have a situation where the trade unions are going on strike every five minutes, holding the country to ransom and making everybody miserable and that is what was happening. sure. but i want to remind people you didn't convert to the tories until 2018, it wasn't that you thought, it was in the blair period, the brown period, the ed miliband period, you were working for a labour mp against people who tried to become the tory prime minister. and that is when the penny dropped. when i started working fora labour mp. let's talk about that in a second. first of all, what else about ashfield? your dad was a miner, paul.

your mum jennifer was a factory worker, two wages, and yet you describe when you talk about this a very poor house, how come? i think that was typical of households in ashfield at the time, the men worked down the pits, some did seven days a week, my mother worked at the factory, and things were more expensive i think back in the �*70s, food was definitely more expensive, relatively speaking, people were paying a lot more as a percentage of their wages on food then. that is how it was but there was also a quota of a lot of the miners went out for a drink as well, they liked the odd pint, we had one holiday per year which was a caravan in skegness, we had a garden full of vegetables, chickens at the bottom of the garden for the eggs, and that was our food bank. 0ur garden was ourfood bank, so if we were short of anything me dad went in the garden or the allotment and got the food out. we didn't think it was in poverty, i didn't think we were impoverished or dirt poor, i didn't think that.

but perhaps if some people today could go back in a time machine and see how we lived, they would probably think we were very, very poor but i didn't see that at the time. is there a bit of you that is nostalgic for that? yes, absolutely. i look at my dad getting up in the morning to go to work at half past four to a coal mine, remember every morning his alarm clock going off, that woke me up, and that sort of conditioned me to thinking, when i leave school, that's what i will be doing, i will have my own alarm clock, and just a few years later, i was getting up with my dad and going to the pit and going to work together and doing a shift underground. what's interesting is, you then leave the mines, because your relationship breaks up, you've got two boys to bring up, charlie and harry, and you bring them up as a single parent and again, these are tough times. yes, it's difficult, you go from going to work and providing for a family to all of a sudden finding that you're on your own, looking after children, you've got great support

from my family obviously, i spent a little bit of time out of work but i was volunteering at the same time at a local charity... citizens advice. citizens advice bureau, which was very good to me. i learned some new skills, it kept me in the workplace, it kept my brain ticking over, and eventually, i got a job with citizens advice bureau and i did that for several years and i drifted into politics and that is where i met gloria when i was working at the cab. gloria de piero, labour mp for ashfield, now a telly presenter, who you worked for. what is interesting, when i read your background, background in poverty, you then experienced poverty as you're bringing up your children... i'm not saying it was poverty, i didn't think it was poverty. but people who don't know you think, isn't this the guy who is very unsympathetic to people who are struggling to make ends meet now? doesn't he remember how it was, doesn't he empathise, doesn't he remember the people he used to help in citizens advice you also worked in a hostel

for the homeless? yeah, i did, i worked in several hostels for homeless people. so what has happened? i will tell you what it was, nick. when i first started working at cab we were seeing families that were coming in with all sorts of social problems, it was debt, it was housing problems, it was relationship problems, benefit problems, and we used to help these people, and this is 20 years ago i think it probably is, and we would see these families and we would patch them up and move them on and think i have done a really good job there, and then fast forward ten years when i working for a labour mp, i'm seeing the sons and daughters of the same families have got the same issues, and i'm thinking, we've not solved anything, all we have done is allowed a new generation of young people to come along and have the same problems that their mum and dad had, and that got me thinking, that we was wrong, in our approach, totally wrong. that is interesting, so, the experience of working with people who are struggling, you might not like this word, but hardened you, made you think... it did, yeah. i went from, come on in, let's sort you out, blah, blah,

blah, we need to help you, to thinking, my goodness, ten years later i am seeing the children of these families and thinking we have not helped you, we have made it worse for you. but when you say as you did, no nurse needs to use a food bank... i didn't say that. i said nobody on 35 grand needs to use a food bank, slightly different. but you were talking about nurses. anybody, any public sector worker on 35 grand should not be using a food bank. i did challenge a reporter to provide any public sector worker in ashfield to come and see me, who uses a food bank, i am still waiting. there may be a reason for that. i know the reason, it doesn't exist. sure but that may be because ashfield, i hate to say this, to a proud ashfield man, ashfield isn't the world. it's my world, nick. but there may be people in other parts of the world who do struggle on a salary which would make you relatively rich in ashfield.

let's just take an example like barking in essex and dagenham, to buy a house in your constituency, we checked this out because before going on air, on average is 214,000, in barking and dagenham, it is a03,000, i suspect, i haven't got the figures, rent is a lot higher. so, isn't it a bit glib to say, because i don't know a nurse who needs to use a food bank, there aren't any nurses who need to use a food bank? well, where are they? have you got any? well, i haven't got them here but the royal college of nursing can provide you with them. unite the union can, unison can. well, they will do. the unions have all got an agenda, you know that, they will provide these case studies. you've got an agenda, they've got an agenda. my inbox is full, when i make these so called controversial comments, which by the way are not controversial, my inbox floods from people, notjust just from ashfield, from places like barking, from all over the uk, saying, you know what, lee, thank goodness somebody is speaking out, we agree with you. i get pensioners contacting me from southern constituencies who are on peanuts, less than 20

grand a year, they are not using food banks. nobody is saying that everybody on that salary has to use a food bank, what i am asking is, do you have empathy or sympathy with some who find themselves using a food bank? they might have other problems... of course i do and i always said when i was working at the cab we used to refer people to food banks, although at the time with the labour government we were not able to broadcast the fact. if somebody has suffered domestic abuse, lost theirjob, become ill, suddenly got a disability, had a major trauma in their life, i think the state should be there to wrap their arms around them and help them in a difficult time, it should not be a way of life. i was brought up differently and i'm a product of where i was born and brought up. before we move on, because of what you saw, as a volunteer, and then working for a labour mp doing no doubt lots of casework with people with problems in the constituency, you're very critical of the benefits system, universal credit, do you think it keeps people poor? yes, it keeps generation

after generation poor and it stifles aspiration and it ruins children's outcomes, educational outcomes, expectations. i saw a family when i was working for gloria, it was a man and a oman, they had never worked, they had five children, i think three of the children was on disability living allowance foradhd, behavioural problems, they were getting £53,000 a year net. now, to get that sort of wage, you have got to be earning over 70k, we know that. but the worst thing for me with that was not the actual amount of money they were getting, it was their children were labelled as disabled so when they left school they were going to be having the same problems as their parents, and we are not breaking the poverty cycle, it's cruel because we are ruining people's lives. but are you telling your party? yes, of course i am, and they are listening to me. so, they're changing? you worried me then because you became all diplomatic and gave me a party line. i thought the whole point

of lee anderson is you don't give me a party line. i have spoken to the party many times, now i have got a bit more of a voice. you started to say, and i interrupted you, that you left the labour party because of what you saw when you were working for them, working for the local mp, gloria de piero. i was in a labour group meeting in february 2018 i think it was, when one of the momentum members said to me, have you ever read the works of karl marx? isaid, no, i haven't, so they said, why don't you off and join the tory party? and i said you know what, mate, that is not a bad idea, so i did, and then within 18 months, i was his mp, so the labour party give great career advice. before you got given a job by rishi sunak, when it comes to the issue of small boats, migrants crossings, you said it is like the band on the titanic playing the same tune and ignoring the obvious. what was like the small band on the titanic? i just thought the whole of parliament was like that, notjust my own party, i thought the whole of parliament was just not taking it as seriously as it is —

it comes up all the time on the doorstep, our inboxes are full of it, we've now got leafy suburbs where the hotels are full of illegal migrants. i went to calais the other week and witnessed firsthand the nonsense that's going off there, it scares me, it frightens me. when you said, "ignoring the obvious", what did you mean? the obvious, it is a big problem, that is the obvious, it is creating big social problems in this country. we've got undocumented tens of thousands of young men coming in from all over the world, we don't know who they are, where they have been, some of them are blatantly lying when they go through the process. there are protests now outside the asylum hotels you described which are sometimes in leafy suburbs, they are quite often actually in the poorest parts of the country. they are, yeah. do you have some sympathy with the protesters? of course i do. when i hear that protesters are protesting, and these are not far right extremists, they are just normal family people from some of these towns and villages that are upset that overnight, 200—300 young men have

arrived and they are saying things to young girls, and i know there has been a few attacks and some horrible incidents, so, of course, people are going to be concerned, that'sjust human nature. at the end of the day when you live in a community you expect to be safe and you don't like sudden change, that is how humans behave. what is frightening about having a hostel or a hotel full of young asylum seekers, who frankly just want a better life in the way my grandparents wanted a better life when they fled the nazis? well, you have hit the nail on the head, they have come here for a better life, they are not asylum seekers, they are abusing the asylum system, we know that. i spoke to the young men in the camp in calais, none of them were fleeing violence or persecution, they were coming to the uk, and the word they kept saying was el dorado, el dorado. all they doing at this care for calais camp, they are walking them through the asylum process, they meet them when they get to the hotels in the uk, walk them through the asylum process again, they are being coached and they are abusing the system.

but you've made a generalisation again. now there may be people who would agree with you about albanians, for example, syrians, iranians, afghans, somalis, are people coming from war—torn countries, you're saying they are not really. but there are lots of people staying in those war—torn countries. what people don't like is the optics of tens of thousands of young men, we are not seeing, very often women and children and vulnerable people, and if we saw that, then maybe people, the general public, and especially in places like ashfield, would be more sympathetic. but they have to have a way of getting here, don't they, mr anderson? how do they get here? you know there are schemes for people to come here legally, nick. but there are not schemes for lots of countries. but why are young men coming here and leaving their women and children behind? that is not the sort of young men that are going to be having sympathy in this country? they are earning money and sending it to theirfamilies and they hope their families will follow them. in 1941, when the nazis were poised,

my grandad left the coal mine and he went to fight the nazis, he didn't get on a boat and escape to america and sent for his family. he put a uniform on, got a gun and went to fight for this great country of ours, and that is what is in the hearts and minds of a lot of my constituents. when my grandparents were in nazi germany, they fled to italy and according to your advice, they should have stayed in the first country they went to? no, not at all. there were death camps all across eastern europe, people being murdered and executed. that is completely different. just before we move on, you have got a bit of criticism for mixing with people who have extreme views. the so—called skegby scooter club. people you praised as top lads who made me proud of ashfield. do you understand why when people have looked into the political views of those people that they find them completely unacceptable? yeah, the skegby scooter club has got about 200 members, male and female, they do lots of charity work throughout the community, they have charity nights, they are always booked up,

and for me to be photographed with a couple of people who may have had far right leanings many years ago at a charity do where they have raised money for local good causes, they didn't show all the other photos that i had had taken that night with other people. but there were shirts saying "no remorse white pride, fluke dudley... no there wasn't. 0din�*s cross, white power symbol... let me stop you there, there was nobody wearing that t—shirt at the event i was at. do you not think you should check out people you mix with? what, everybody, hundreds? i have hundreds of photos taken every week, you think i should check everybody i have a photo taken with? so now you wouldn't meet those people? they are part of the scooter club, they have actually publicly renounced what they did 25 years ago, the fluke dudley one said he did it 25 years ago, he is not part of it any more. crudely, the question is, whether you codemn the people who behave that way? it is like when you become an mp and you get a bit of a profile, lots of people want photos with you, simple as that. i don't fill a form out and say

have you ever been apart of this group, that group? ijust have a photo took in good—faith. you once described borisjohnson as a friend, said he would do well in ashfield working men's club. corbyn wouldn't. could he be prime minister again? oh, that is a good question. i've been asked this a few times. i don't think age is on his side, to be honest, i think he is coming up to 60, i would love him to have a go for london mayor again, i think that would be interesting because i think he would win in london. he would beat khan because we need to get rid of sadiq khan, he has not been good for the city. but there is nothing in his behaviour, because you were critical of him at times, which means, look, he should not be prime minister again, on ethical grounds? i think everybody has got a right to chuck their hat in the ring at some stage, i don't think he will do, i think his day is gone. but he is still a big force in politics, boris, he is a big character, people want to meet him, regardless of what you think about him, he's a big draw, is boris. his day is gone and rishi sunak

for the moment is your man. yeah. for those who, again, i am sure say to you, he is never going to do these things you believe in, you have been had, you've been captured, he has done what he wanted, to say, how do i shut lee anderson up? i know, i'll give him a big job and then he will be all diplomatic like he is being to nick robinson on the radio and the telly. why are they wrong? the brief i got when i accepted the job was, keep on saying what you're saying and doing what you're doing, that's why we love you, that's why we're giving you the job. so you're saying, if he doesn't deal with the small boats, he's in trouble? what i will say to that, and this is not a politician's answer, i don't change my opinion on anything just because i have had a promotion. what i said six weeks ago i stand by it, including small boats, the economy. so, you're still on the titanic, fiddling? we are all on the titanic, political parties, especially if you are in government, we are all on the titanic at some stage. we've got to get the course right, steady the ship and deliver on our promises, if we do

that we will be fine. you've described quite a journey, and i imagine at times quite a painfuljourney for anyone changing their politics because people don't like it. your son in particular, harry, wasn't massively impressed when you said you were going to be a tory? no, harry, bless him, he went to university in sheffield. he had only been there six months and came back a different man, he had got his beard and he was a vegetarian and obviously changed for the worse, i think, actually. first vegetarian ever in our family. but he was a labour party member, and idealistic, a nice young man. and a corbynite? and a corbynite, yeah. believed in all that. and when ijoined the tory party, i think it was because he was in that circle of friends as well at university, like a left—leaning socialist group of friends, when the news broke, because i think it broke on the bbc, he was very upset and he rang me, he was deeply upset but we are still

best of friends. upset sad or upset angry? he was sad that i'd left the labour party, probably a little bit angry with me as well because i am his dad. probably angry that i didn't tell him, because everything was such a whirlwind at the time. and i suppose he felt a little bit let down by me as well. but that is what happens in families, sometimes you feel like you have let your loved ones down, and i hadn't, ithought i did it for the right reasons, but now, he is totally over it... when he sees those headlines, does he call you up or message you and say, what have you said now? no, he sees the other end, when i am being attacked he says, dad, are you 0k? he looks after you? he looks after me, yeah. lee anderson, thank you forjoining me on political thinking. thank you. mr anderson is if you like the red wall made flesh, bit of a phrase, the red wall, it covers so many things, but he knows what it means,

it means speaking up for the people he thinks don't get a hearing. it means the tories reaching parts the country that they struggle to reach without him. the question is, having him onside, giving him a bigjob, is that enough, or as he starts to sound more and more like another politician, and if rishi sunak fails to deliver the things he used to say were vital just a few weeks ago, will it be anything like enough? thanks for watching. hello. it feels chilly enough already out there today but things will get colder over the week ahead.

today there is a lot of cloud, little or no sunshine, probably more showers than yesterday, typically affecting northern ireland and northern scotland, wintry over the mountain tops. temperatures could make eight or 9 degrees in northern ireland in western scotland, chillier than yesterday but more cloud and showers to come. change across scotland with this band of rain, sleet and snow over the hills and the air gets colder in northern scotland, snow showers and ice and a first and we could see cloud breaking across eastern england, leading to first early on monday. things get colder because we have a northerly wind pushing down across the whole of the uk, bringing cold air from the arctic. the colder air follows the band of rain, may be sleet and snow over the pennines, ahead of that across england and wales there is cloud and some showers. some shine for northern

england, scotland, northern ireland, is no especially in northern scotland, temperature is only one or 2 degrees. southern parts of england and wales could see temperatures of eight or 9 degrees but this band of cloud and rain moving south, cold they are taking in behind could bring snow to southern england, cold and frosty and icy on tuesday with many places dry with sunshine, snow showers packing in on the northerly wind. temperatures on tuesday four or 5 degrees, but when you factor in a strong northerly wind affecting northern scotland and the east coast of england it will feel especially cold. this is a reminder of what is to come on monday and tuesday, snow showers across the north and east of scotland and north—east england, as much as 20 centimetres higher parts of northern scotland. after that on tuesday night, any widespread clear

skies and wind, a widespread sharp frost with temperatures as low as -10. the frost with temperatures as low as —10. the future is more uncertain, the forecast keeps changing, looking like it will be cold but with weather fronts coming in, like it will be cold but with weatherfronts coming in, the like it will be cold but with weather fronts coming in, the chance of snow is a little more wide.

this is bbc news — welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. our top stories. after a decade of talks, more than 100 un member states agree on a treaty to protect our oceans. the ship has reached the shore. china will boost military spending by more than 7% and will train more of its soldiers under combat conditions. supporters of pakistan's former prime minister imran khan gather at his house after reports he's about to be arrested. we'll be live in islamabad. and prince harry describes writing his memoir as an act of service in the hope that sharing details will help others. once the book came out,

i felt incredibly free.