welcome to hardtalk i'm stephen sackur. the devastating train crash in greece which killed 57 people generated a wave of grief and anger. many greeks see the disaster as symptomatic of a failing state, characterised by a lack of investment in public infrastructure and a lack of accountability at the heart of government. other aspects of public policy are also facing harsh scrutiny, from migration

to internal security. my guest is greek migration minister notis mitarachi. has his government lost the confidence of the greek people? notis mitarachi in athens, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much. the whole world has watched with a great deal of concern and sympathy the unfolding of this disaster in greece. 57 lives lost in that terrible train crash. do you believe it's going to be seen as a turning point in greece, that business

as usual will no longer be accepted? it's obviously a devastating event. the level of grief in the greek people, the greek government, is enormous. 57 people, particularly young people, lost their lives in this accident. multiple causes. there is an independent review under way by specialists. there is the prosecuting authorities now questioning both what happened on the day and more importantly, what have been the systemic mistakes over the years that led to the fact that the railway system has not been completely upgraded by the time it should have done in 2017? as you know, the greek railways system was privatised in 2017. the network is still public. there is a lot of committed investment in that network. 70% of the upgrade has been completed, but not 100%. and the accident occurred in an area where partly the system has been installed. there was an electronic

monitor available for the stationmaster, who is currently held in custody, but obviously that was not enough. yeah, well, you mentioned the stationmaster, and it's very interesting that you chose to say, you know, you want the emphasis to be on the systemic investigation rather than the on—the—day failings. do you therefore think it was a grave mistake for your own prime minister so quickly after the terrible crash to say that "tragic human error" was responsible? obviously, when you have major disasters, there is a lot of reasons behind them. there appears to be multiple human error — not one — multiple human error on the day. and that was correct, factually, what it was said. but we want to go a step further. we don't want to hide behind human error, which is, appears to be obvious. we need to find out why the network had not been upgraded on time. yes, the european union expects the networks to be upgraded by 2030. so we're not behind the european union timeframe.

but that's not enough for us. and because you mentioned before, at the beginning of the programme, about public infrastructure, you need to know that the airline has been privatised and is working perfectly. the highways have been invested and we have state of the art highways. the subway, now things have been upgraded. the new subway in thessaloniki is up and running. the railway station — the railway system, apologies — is one area where we haven't done enough. the greek government spokesman said this. he said these delays to implementing all the ambitious plans to upgrade the rail system in greece, the delays are rooted in the chronic ills of the greek public sector. this government has tried to deal with it, but, quote, "we did not manage to eradicate it." it is a failure of your government, is it not? there was a contract that was signed in 2014. it should have been completed in 2016. it didn't happen. this current government, elected in 2019, signed an amendment to the contract, started the process again. they were working on the project.

they went at 70% completion. they expected to complete the whole project in 2023. so, we've done a lot — obviously not enough. how do you feel when you see people, greeks, take to the streets, clashing with police, bearing placards which are pointed at the government saying, "murderers"? i mean, genuinely, there is a very strong feeling of grief. and that's not a prerogative of specific groups that are in the streets. everyone in the greek society feels enormously sad for what happened. now, you know, ahead of general elections, some people will take it, try to take advantage of the anger. a lot of the anger is real and genuine, especially among young people that so, so many of their age group losing their lives at the event. what is important for us now is to move on and sure, and that will happen in the next few days. there will be an emergency plan for the railways to ensure that the upgrade goes faster and more efficiently. and we, the prime minister has

apologised for the political responsibility behind these failings. the relevant minister has resigned on the day as well. yeah, and one can only suppose that will have political implications. there were supposed to be national parliamentary elections to elect a new government in greece. everybody thought those elections would be in april. many said the 9th of april. given the very febrile atmosphere in your country as a result of this disaster, do you believe you and your government colleagues are now going to push the election date back? constitutionally, the election day is at the end ofjuly. that is when the term of the government ends. 0bviously, these are not... in the last few days, no—one in the government is talking about election. no—one in the government is thinking around elections. we're all concentrated on the terrible events of the previous week and the consequences to the greek society of this accident. i think it will take a few more

days for us to start even thinking about it. the government has set up an independent investigation. everybody in greece wants to see what that investigation will produce in terms of ascribing responsibility, accountability and blame. are you able to guarantee that that independent report will come out before greeks vote in this forthcoming election? this is the intention, and this will be, then become part of the prosecuting authority's file, which they will review and include it for any criminal charges they would like to, to put. obviously, we need answers before the elections. i think that has been very clear from the outset by the prime minister and from the minister of state that has been given interim responsibility to manage the competent ministers. we already referred to the thousands on the streets in recent days, many of them very, very angry and saying they have no trust in your government. would you accept that there are

deeper issues of confidence, trust, accountability in your government? you're in your fourth year and there have been a series of issues. and i want to point to one, which is the revelations about cyber surveillance of key public figures going on for, it seems, a very long time, supervised by your intelligence service. that has also undermined trust in your government, has it not? it has become a big issue of debate. but what are the facts? the fact is that according to the greek constitution, prosecuting authorities — with court order, only with court order — can listen into telephone conversations for issues of national security orfor serious crime. it doesn't appear that any of the wiretapping incidents that have happened during the current government have been done with any way other than a court order. so, there is no legality issue on these wiretappings and this government has also

taken measures... i'm sorry, minister, butjust, just saying that they've got a court order doesn't really address the question of why on earth the intelligence agency would be using the most potent spywa re to secretly surveil a leading financial journalist. that was the first revelation. but then it turned out the leader, the man who is now the leader of the pasok opposition, and, according to one newspaper investigation, a whole list of other politicians, including senior members of your own government. why on earth would that kind of secret covert surveillance be happening? i think you're confusing different stories here. first of all, the government doesn't use spyware. the government, when they need to tap somebody, they do it through the telephone networks with a court order. so the use of spyware is not something that this government does. but we know that

spyware was used. forgive me, but we do know that. the financial journalists that i mentioned found out quite specifically and explicitly that his phone was infected with this predator spyware. absolutely. and we have very vocally said that the government has no relationship whatsoever with the use or ownership of any spyware. you know, spywares are not the prerogative of governments or of the greek government, for that matter, for which reason somebody would have access to this kind of software and would like to listen illegally — because under greek law, it's illegal to wiretap anyone through the use of spyware — remains to be seen. and that's the subject of a judicial review. what surprised us, and i don't want to bring too much domestic politics into bbc hardtalk is that it was a serious felony illegal wiretapping. the previous left wing government made it a misdemeanourjust before the elections, and we had to change the law again and make it a felony. and now it's again a felony in greece to use any spyware

software to listen to an individual. it is only the prosecuting authorities through a court judgment, through the networks, that can listen to specific people. can you be sure that you weren't being tapped, your phone wasn't being tapped by your own intelligence service? if the prosecuting authorities in greece believe they have a reason to listen to my phone, for a serious crime, for example, and if a judge says that that's all right... i mean, we're not beyond control. as one newspaper reports it, the foreign minister, the finance minister, the labour minister, all have had their phones tapped. you don't even know whether you've had yours tapped, is that it? there have been in the newspapers lists of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of names. none of that has ever been proven. so it's very difficult for me to comment on what the press has said in greece. there have been enormous, limited number of cases where it appears that there was a legitimate wiretapping of phones.

you mentioned before — i just want to correct that — you mentioned the leader of the socialist party. he was not the leader of any party at that time. i understand that. he was a member of the european parliament. the socialists had two members of the european parliament. one is mrs kaili, who is being held in custody in brussels. the other is the person that was followed, obviously for not related purposes. the government right now has a series of different trust and confidence issues with the greek public. and in the context of that, you have a very difficult and challenging job that you still must do, which is running greece's migration policy. over the course of the last three years, do you think you've got that policy right? i mean, in 2015, we had almost one million irregular arrivals to greece. that was 10% of our population. that's obviously a number that neither greece nor the european union can cope with. we have been able to protect our external borders. we still have considerable flaws. we haven't put the problem to zero. we have 15,000 asylum

seekers now in greece, in 33 camps, but in camps with much better living conditions versus the ones we used to see in the previous yea rs. and i'm very pleased that in the last 12 months i haven't seen reports in the global media talking about the condition of the greek camps. we don't have a backlog any more in the asylum service. we are able to give asylum decisions within a few weeks from arrival. but more importantly, we are starting to invest more in legal pathways. europe shouldn't be closed. we need people to come and live in europe, but we shouldn't allow the smugglers to select who comes and lives here, for paying a fee. so we are signing bilateral agreements with a number of countries to provide for legal, safe, dignified pathways to people to come and live in greece. you described your own migration policy as, "strict but fair." now, the strictness isn't in question — the border fences, the new detention camps for migrants, they all speak to toughness. but when it comes to fairness, you've got a problem because there are many independent international organisations who continue to accuse greece of violating international law and international norms in the way you treat migrants attempting to enter your territory.

the so—called pushback policy that you've implemented is illegal, isn't it? first of all, it is clear that we have denied smugglers a few hundred million euros a year. that's a big business. yeah, but could you just answer my question? answer my question about violating international law. i will answer. not at all. the right to protect the borders is in the european regulation 656 of 2014. it is in the european court of human rightsjudgments in the case of spain and north macedonia. people don't have a right to cross illegally the borders. there is no international law that provides for access to territory. you can intercept. that's absolutely clear in international law, and that's what we do. there have been cases that we have been accused of doing more than that. yep. we have had an independent review of such claims. none of them

were substantiated. and i can recall the story of this little maria — if you remember — there was a story that also played in the uk media, but also in german media, that there was a so—called girl called maria that died in an island in evros. it was revealed a few months later that this person never existed. spiegel had to retract all the articles, and all that proved to be a smearing campaign against greece. listen... have you seen the most recent greek council for refugees report that came out on the 2nd of march, 2023? it says, "pushbacks of refugees into turkey are widespread. "they involve humiliation, illegal detention, "intimidation, physical, sometimes sexual violence "and arbitrary confiscation of personal belongings." they cite 11 different incidents in that report. it is still going on. i'm still waiting for the greek council of refugees, which is an ngo that took us to court for the case of little maria, to apologise and explain to the court why they misled justice by claiming a case

that doesn't exist. and this is the specific ngo — and thank you for asking this question just after i made the point about maria — that brought the case to the european court of human rights, and naturally greece not only will defend itself... with respect, minister, if this was only about one individual case, perhaps there wouldn't be such a problem. this is about multiple cases. it is indicative, stephen. stephen, it's indicative. that's why i emphasise it, because it became prime global news. for weeks, we have been accused of cruelty. we have been accused of abandoning a ten—year—old girl to die, and this girl never existed. so allow me to be a bit angry on that. yeah. you're building new fences along your land border with turkey. and after the terrible, catastrophic earthquake which hit both turkey and northern syria, it seems you speeded up work on your fortifications. is that because you are

determined to keep out what you think will be a new wave of refugees, particularly from syria? first of all, the fence in evros was announced well before the earthquake, so they're not linked at all. second of all, yes, there is a humanitarian crisis in turkey. it affects tens of millions of people. obviously, we need to do more in providing humanitarian aid. and if we decide in europe to relocate people, we will participate. but in an orderly relocation, notjust letting whoever pays the smuggler to cross the borders and just arrive in greece. for example, when the taliban took over power in afghanistan, greece was among the first countries in europe to provide 1,000 visas, humanitarian visas for people to come to greece. and we focused on female leaders from afghanistan that were obviously under threat. so we do participate in humanitarian relocation programmes. but as i said, we should do that in a european—organised way. we have opened our borders to the ukrainian displaced people. more than 100,000

people came to greece. we do participate in each and every initiative that has a humanitarian angle, but we should do that as an organised state. minister, am i right in thinking you're the mp representing the island of chios? is that right? that's correct. yeah. and you're building one of, i believe, a total of at least four new migrant detention camps on chios. they are described by the 0xfam head of office to the eu, evelien van roemburg, in the following way — she says, "they are all about barbed—wire fences, "surveillance cameras, scanning fingerprints "at gate entrances." in essence, what she's describing are glorified prison camps. is that what you think is right and properfor chios? we've done five of these camps. three are already operating. the european union doesn't share the same view that 0xfam has. but i need to make a clarification here. this camps are only for a few weeks. these are first reception camps, people arriving.

we haven't tested them yet, whether they are part of the eurodac terrorist database. we don't know who they are. they are not in detention. they are allowed to leave the camp as many times in the day they want. theyjust need to be there for the night. so it's not a prison at all, but it provides for a safe environment forfamilies, for unaccompanied minors, for these few weeks that we need in order to determine whether these people are entitled to international protection or not. so this is just short—term accommodation, and it should have appropriate living standards. we're the first camps in europe that meet the very strict new european union standards for reception facilities. but also a level of safety. let me remind you what happened in moria, where it was burned down, and thank god no—one died that day. mm. so we need to provide that we don't have similar incidents. but i think they're very important... and another aspect of your very strict, some would say hawkish approach to the whole migration issue is the government's attempt, for example, to take through the courts,

and indeed prosecutors, charged with espionage, two dozen humanitarian ngo workers who were trying to improve the lives of migrants who were trying to make it to greece or had already made it into greece. these people were put before the court, and it was only after an appeals court dismissed the case as being fundamentally flawed that the case was dropped. were you embarrassed, as ministerfor migration, to see that case go before a court? let me be very clear here. if you are an ngo, a humanitarian worker coming to greece to help people, you are extremely welcome. we work with tens and hundreds of ngos in a lot of the camps. they're residents, they're helping people... to accuse these people of espionage, minister, seems absurd. listen, if you find somebody at the borders with illegal radio equipment in frequencies which are military frequencies... they're trying to save lives, minister. these people are

trying to save lives. they're not trying to save lives. they're trying to ensure that smugglers send people through. they are part of... some of them could be part of a network, and it's up to the police and the court to determine who is helping people and who is smuggling people. and calling yourself an ngo, it could mean many different things. it could mean all these well—known organisations that we respect their work so much and we work with them, and it can mean three people that have formed a small "ngo" and they have colleagues on the opposite side that send boats every day, and they co—ordinate from the greek side to tell them where the coastguard boat is. mm. when the coastguard vessel goes, then they call and say, "0k, come, start now." this is called smuggling. not in greece, in every european country, or every western country. so this is a critical difference. and thank god our courts are extremely competent, they're fully independent, and they takejudgments on a case—by—case basis. well, yeah, that case was thrown out. although, as i understand it, the individuals involved may face further criminal charges, so it's not over for them yet.

but let's move on quickly, before we finish. i'm very interested to get your reaction to what's happening here in the united kingdom. of course, the uk is no longer in the european union, but the prime minister here, rishi sunak, has outlined a new policy in which he says there will be zero—tolerance for illegal entrants, as he calls them, into the united kingdom. they will never, he says, be allowed to stay in the uk, and he's hoping that a great number of them will be transported to third countries. his particular focus at the moment is rwanda. is that the kind of approach that greece wants to take, and do you believe it's the kind of approach that the european union as a whole will seek to take? obviously, i cannot comment on british politics. that would not be appropriate for me. but i can say the following thing. when people, in the case of greece, cross through an ally country, which is a safe country, which is a member of nato and the council of europe,

it means that that country can provide for international protection in cases where it's needed. you mean turkey? and just to be clear with you... i mean turkey. and just to be clear, turkey has said... turkey is no longer prepared to sit by the agreement signed in 2016 and guarantee to take the "returns" — that is, the migrants that you want to send back to turkey. they never said that, actually. when michel and von der leyen went to see president erdogan, that's not what he said. i mean, we get, sometimes, conflicting messages from the turkish authorities. sometimes they cooperate, sometimes they're not. but obviously that highlights one critical thing here, stephen, that we need to co—ordinate ourselves. and, yes, there are a lot of reasons why we need to provide humanitarian support to people in need. and europe should not be closed. we should not deny asylum to people that need it, but we need to co—ordinate ourselves.

and in the european union, we are still struggling to find an agreement on the new pact on migration asylum. we still suffer. we cannot find a way to provide solidarity among ourselves in the european union. first reception countries, countries in the centre of europe. we need to solve these issues. and on thursday, at the council of the european union, i hope we do a step forward in finding a suitable and lasting solution in the european migration pact. you're still a very long way from that, aren't you, minister? within the european union. we are very far away from an agreement. that's true. because we don't have a solidarity mechanism, but that's what's missing. at the heart of the pact is the solidarity mechanism and the voluntary mechanism we agreed last year. listen to that — it only relocated less than half a percent of the 2022 arrivals. less than half a percentage point. and that's a big problem. we have to end on that rather bleak note. minister notis mitarachi, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. thank you.

hello there. up to now. most of the snow that's been falling has been across more northern parts of the uk, especially northern scotland. and we've got some snow and ice here at the moment, but that cold arctic air has swept down across all areas now. and coming into that cold air, this weather front is sliding in from the atlantic. that's bringing some wetter weather, a mixture of rain, sleet and some snow, snow perhaps up towards the m4 corridor. and there could be a couple of centimetres in places in time for the early morning rush hour. icy conditions here further north with clearer skies. it's going to be very cold and frosty. temperatures could be —13 in the glens of scotland. that wetter weather across southern parts

of england and wales moves away fairly quickly. but then we'll see some more wet weather coming in from the southwest and that will start to turn to snow as well. more cloud across wales, southern england and the midlands. further north, some sunshine, fewer snow showers around. but wherever you are, it's going to be a cold day. again, temperatures three to five degrees. let's focus on that wetter weather coming into the south. west is moving in more quickly now and it's moving a bit further north as well. so we'll see that rain turning to sleet and snow more widely during the evening rush hour and more significant snow in places as well, perhaps five to 10 centimetres. that snowier weather then moves away later on in the night. and then we see a next area of low pressure coming in from the atlantic. this one is slowing down a bit and the snowier weather is moving northwards more slowly. so we do see some wet weather coming back in from the southwest on thursday. for southern parts of england, it may well be rain turned to rain in south wales, the south midlands turning to snow across north wales, northern england during the afternoon. snow beginning to arrive here, still dry through much of the day across scotland and northern ireland. this is the area that the met office have issued. the heavy snow warning, yellow warning. snow may not get as far north

in scotland, but there's still the potential for some heavy falls of snow. i think over the pennines in particular, with the snow developing a little more widely in these areas after dark, that area of low pressure not moving as far north, then slides away. we're still left with some snow falling actually for a while on friday, especially across central and eastern parts of england. that will be replaced by brighter skies from the north with some sunshine. but again, a few more snow showers. we're still in cold air for much of the country. may make seven or eight degrees in the far south, but otherwise four or five is more typical.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm monica miller. the headlines: britain's prime minister says he's "up for the fight" to bring in new legislation to prevent migrants crossing the channel. the un refugee agency says it will punish asylum seekers. people must know that if they come here illegally, it will result in the detention and swift removal. the white house says it supports a bipartisan bill in congress that will give president biden new powers to ban the chinese—owned app tiktok in the us. two of the four americans kidnapped in northern mexico on monday have been found dead, refocusing attention on gang

violence in the country.