this is bbc news. the headlines: police in georgia are clashing with tens of thousands of protesters gathered in the capital tbilisi for a second day, over a law the government says will root out people working against the interests of georgia. but critics say it could crack down on any sort of opposition. the us justice department has found the louisville metro police department used routine discrimination, illegal searches and excessive force. they've released a report prompted by the killing of breonna taylor who was shot by police during a raid on her home in 2020. the uk prime minister is defending asylum reform plans, including banning anyone arriving in a small boat, from being able to claim asylum

or seek citizenship. rishi sunak said his government is "on the side of the british people." the opposition called it a gimmick. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur and today i'm in nice on the french riviera, a glamorous corner of europe, which has long been a favorite haunt of russia's oligarchs. and my guest today, sergei pugachev, is one of them, or at least he was — the billionaire businessman helped vladimir putin make it all the way to the kremlin. but their relationship soured. pugachev was accused of massive financial crimes. he fled from moscow, first to london and then here to nice, where he enjoys

french citizenship. he now has his own private security and an extraordinary story to tell, which gives us insights into both the strengths and the weaknesses of vladimir putin. sergei pugachev, welcome to hardtalk. hello, thank you for the invitation. it's a very great pleasure to meet you. let me start with something you said three years ago. you said theoretically, "i think i am number three on vladimir putin's hit list." do you still do you still think that? yes, sure.

do you have evidence to back up the feeling that you like navalny, like browder, are an enemy that putin wants to eliminate? yes, of course. what is the evidence? what does this do —

this feeling you have that you still represent a threat that putin would like to eliminate, what does this do to your psychology? for example, we're sitting here talking to each other in a luxury hotel, you didn't want me to come to your home in nice, you also you walked in here with a bodyguard. and i'm just wondering, do you have this constant feeling of anxiety in the back of your mind? why should vladimir putin care about you today? because i've looked at your record, i mean, you told a judge in london, when the russian state was taking you to court in london seven years ago, you said to the judge, "look, i am in grave danger." i'm not sure the courts really believed it then, but why should we believe it now? because you've been living in nice as a private citizen for the last seven years. why should putin worry about you now?

i'm very interested in your background with putin. you just said to me, "i was never friendly with him." that surely flies in the face of many facts. you essentially were one of the key campaigners for putin to take yeltsin�*s job back in 1999. i think you called yourself one of the key reasons that brought putin to power. you said, "i worked day and night for months to achieve this."

we know that you went drinking with putin. i believe, you went to the steam baths with putin. yes, right. you were his friend. the truth is, putin, when he became president, when he moved into the kremlin, he was clearly grateful to you. you were given great political access to him inside the kremlin. he made sure that you got a position as a senator in the russian senate. and when he called meetings of the oligarchs, you were in those meetings? yes. so in a funny sort of way, why are you denying the truth of your closeness? no, no, no, no.

did you, when you worked so hard to get putin into the kremlin, did you think he would be good for russia or did you think he would be good for you as a billionaire, one of the oligarchs who had made so much money out of the political chaos in russia?

putin was a relatively unknown person in moscow, he was from st petersburg, he was from a poor family, he'd been a middle ranking agent in the kgb. is not the truth that you and the other billionaires, the oligarchs, you thought you thought you could control putin in the kremlin? no, no, no. and what happened was that... no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. no, no, no.

but even as you tell that story, i'm thinking you and many others in the russian business elite, you underestimated vladimir putin. do you recognize that now as you look back on that period? did you personally overreach yourself, push yourself too far in russia? you were supremely wealthy for a time, i think

you claimed at one point you were worth $15 billion. your interests went beyond your bank, but they also included shipbuilding, also included one of the most valuable coal fields. mining company, it was biggest in the world. yes. but you were building these assets. i built it before putin, you have to understand. yes, but then you need to understand that those assets became strategic. they became things that the kremlin wanted to have close control of. and, therefore, when you and your bank hit huge trouble in 2008, that was an opportunity for the kremlin to move against you.

that story would be fine were it not for the fact the russian state believes and claims that you took basically $1 billion of russian money with you that they had given to your...you say it's not yours any more, but the bank was given this vast sum of bailout cash, and the russians claim you put it in your pocket.

i guess the common theme of this conversation and why it matters when we bring it to the present day is, how much did you then and do you today really understand vladimir putin? maybe you don't understand him as well as you thought because even when you said, "i'm cutting my ties with russia, i'm going to live in europe." and the russians obviously instructed by putin, the russian state chased you all the way to london.

they took you to court in london. and they were actually making a very strong case about your corruption in the courts in london. my corruption? yes. of course not. well, then why did you run away? you ran away from the court in london. they took your passport and you fled to france? yes. why did you do that? that was absolutely legally. no, it was absolutely not legal. if you go back to britain, you face years in prison... no, i mean... ..for contempt of court. no, you have to understand... excuse me, we're actually talking about the royal courts of justice. rather than face that justice, you ran away

excuse me, we're actually talking about the royal courts of justice. rather than face that justice, you ran away to france illegally. it depends. well, you know that if you go back to london, you will be locked up for contempt of court. no... before, yes. are you saying that in your experience, some of the uk's key institutions, politics,

judicial, whatever, were corrupted by russian money? of course, of course. and yet you are still a wealthy man. you are now completely cut off from russia. you cut your ties just from putin, from yourformer... tell me how strong you think putin is within russia today.

but that ability he has had for 20 years to mold the russian mindset — why then do you say he's not strong? that makes him very strong.

we in a sense turn to people like you for insights into putin's mind. but i end up being puzzled by the things you say, because at the same time you say, a, putin is driven by money. you make him sound in a way like the sort of boss of a criminal enterprise, maybe a sort of quasi mafia boss. but on the other hand, you also say that, and i'm quoting you now, "everything in putin's

consciousness flows "from the soviet union and his feelings about the power "of the soviet union." so which is it? money or ideology? tell me about those oligarchs, vastly wealthy people

like yourself who, unlike you, did not fall out with putin. i'm thinking about people like abramovich, deripaska, friedman. do you think they have any influence over vladimir putin today? if they said to him, mr putin, mr president, this war is not good for russia, this war is killing our economy and its prospects, would he listen to them?

how does this end, do you think? you, as a native—born russian — i know you're now french but you were born in russia, you made your big money in russia. i was born in soviet union. yes, very fair point. but to russians, that means you are russian. but you are telling me you absolutely want ukraine to win this war, to destroy the russian military?

whose will do you believe will be stronger, putin's or the west's and the west's determination to support ukraine? we've established your long relationship with putin, your closeness to him. catherine belton wrote a book, putin's people, in which she described you as putin's banker. it's arguable that without you, putin would not be in the kremlin today. are you ready to actually say to me that you feel a real sense of regret or remorse that vladimir putin is there in the kremlin today... no, no, no. ..and you have to take your share of responsibility?

with respect, mr pugachev, you want to believe it's a different putin today, but maybe, maybe you just got putin wrong from the very beginning. you underestimated...

sergei pugachev, we have to end there, but i thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello, there. we have some disruptive weather on the way. certainly, the next 2a to 48 hours look very snowy indeed across a central swathe of the uk. the met office have issued an amber warning for heavy snow across northern england, particularly over the pennines, where we're likely to see up to a0 centimetres of snow by the time we move through thursday, thursday night and

into friday morning. reason for it, this deep area of low pressure, with all its rains pushing into the cold air. so although we'll have rain south of the m4 corridor, some of this rain could be quite heavy across southern england, south wales, it will be turning readily to snow across the northern half of wales through thursday, into the midlands, certainly the north midlands, and across northern england where we'll see significant accumulations starting to pile up over the pennines and also for north wales. a milder day to come, i think, across southern areas, ten to 13 degrees here. this is where we'll have the heavy rain. a chilly but sunny day across scotland, with a few snow showers around. now, as we head through thursday evening, thursday night, the snowfall continues across north wales, northern england, certainly over the pennines and developing into northern ireland, southern scotland, as well. again, to the north of here, it's likely to stay very cold with clear skies. but we have a widespread yellow snow warning for northern ireland, much of southern scotland, northern england, the midlands into north wales — two to ten centimetres at lower levels, up to 15 centimetres

on the hills. but it's this amber warning we're most concerned about over the pennines — 25 to a0 centimetres likely, by the time we reach friday morning. so the snowfall continues in those similar areas through the early hours of friday, starting to pull away, though, from northern ireland and southern scotland. here, it's going to be another very cold night. snow showers for northern scotland. that wintry mix of rain, sleet and snow will be affecting large parts of england and wales, as we start friday morning. that area of low pressure starts to pull away in towards the near continent, taking the snow with it. but also, we'll see a spell of strong northerly winds for a while on its back edge as it pulls away. so a cold, windy, snowy morning across central and eastern parts of england, in particular for friday, could see some drifting of snow as well. but it clears out quite quickly, and then we'll see plenty of sunshine moving in its place for friday afternoon, but it's going to be a cold day wherever you are. take care.

this is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. a crackdown in georgia as police clash with demonstrators after parliament backed a draft law which critics say limits press freedom and civil liberties. this place outside georgia's parliament in at the capital tbilisi has been the scene of so many anti—government and anti—russia protests over the years, but this time the government may have gone too far. an investigation into the killing of breonna taylor concludes that a us police force routinely discriminated against black people. a major us train operator faces a senate panel following the toxic chemical

spill in east palestine. and it's a frustrating night for tottenham as they crash out