this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. ever since the failure of the so—called oslo process to deliver a lasting israeli—palestinian peace, that conflict has been a matter of mutual recrimination and sporadic violence. but now the conditions seem ripe for something different, something worse. israel has the most far—right

government in its history. palestinian disillusion with the status quo seems to be stoking militancy. my guest is palestinian politician, physician and civil rights activist mustafa barghouti. what, if anything, can the palestinians do to improve their situation? mustafa barghouti, in ramallah, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. nice to be with you. thank you. good to have you on the show. let's start with the situation in the west bank, where you sit, in ramallah.

is there any semblance of political authority or control in the west bank right now? unfortunately, the existing authority is the authority of occupation, israeli military occupation, which is really, from security perspective, controlling the whole area. the palestinian authority has been weakened dramatically by the israeli side. since 2002, when the israeli army re—invaded all palestinian cities and all the so—called area a, which is supposed to be under palestinian authority, since then, practically, the palestinian authority is an authority under military occupation, under israeli occupation. so it's an authority without real authority. i just want to be clear about what you're saying. are you saying, in essence, the palestinian authority — created, of course, through that oslo process — is dead? it's not dead.

it continues to try to do as much as it can in terms of civilian work and taking care of education, taking care of health care, in cooperation with palestinian civil society. but it is deprived from any ability even to be in area c, which is about 62% of the west bank. it is prevented from being able to do anything inside eastjerusalem, which is also occupied. and even in area a, they are running civil affairs, but they don't have real authority over security matters. that is the reality. and what about basic legitimacy? i mean, you sit with me, nominally, as a palestinian mp, a member of the palestinian legislature. but of course, there haven't been elections since 2006. and mahmoud abbas has been leader of the palestinian authority since 2005, and there hasn't been elections for his post either. so there is a fundamental lack

of legitimacy, isn't there? absolutely. i agree with you. and as you know, we belong to democratic opposition in palestine, as palestinian national initiative, and we've been calling all these years for having democratic elections. it is unacceptable and it's not correct not to have elections for all these years, since 2006. the outcome, especially after the fact that the president dissolved the parliament — illegally, in our opinion — since then, we have no separation of powers between executive, legislative and judiciary powers. and that's why we need elections so much. but also, i must say, i do blame the authority for not doing elections, but i also blame israel, which is doing everything it can to prevent elections from taking place. and that's why, in 2021, when we were about to have elections, israel insisted not to allow elections in jerusalem, which was, of course, used as an argument not to have elections.

but in principle, i believe we should have elections despite israeli rejection. we should not give israel the veto power over our democratic life, and we should conduct elections in jerusalem as an act of nonviolent resistance. and let them be... if i may... we'll get back to your political sort of solutions, as you see them, in a moment. but let's stick with, actually, the issues of raw power and control, because it seems to me, right now, in towns and cities across the west bank, including nablus, jenin, hebron as well, the real power increasingly lies with young, militant palestinians who are very well armed, and over the last few months have shown a new willingness to engage in armed struggle with the israeli military, but also to target israeli jewish civilians as well. would you agree that that is a new and very striking phenomenon?

i would describe it in a different way. i will say that what we see here in palestine is...who came to power in israel is the most, as you said, the most extreme government in the history of this region. but not only that, it's a government with fascist elements in it. smotrich, who is the second most powerful man in this government, described himself as a fascist. and this government, smotrich, says to palestinians that you cannot have a state. they say that they should continue to build settlements. his plan, as he said, is to flood the west bank with settlers and settlements so that palestinians would eventually conclude that they cannot have a state of their own, and they would have one of three options — either to emigrate or to die or to accept a life of subjugation to the system of israeli apartheid and occupation.

the young palestinians understood that, and that's why the young palestinians, this young generation, will not accept to be slaves of a system of occupation and apartheid. they realised that the whole so—called peace process has failed dramatically. 0slo is dead because of netanyahu in particular, and the israeli government, which blocked any possibility for negotiations or peace in this region. and palestinians realise something they realised in the first intifada, which is that they have to rely on themselves, they have to self—organise, and they have to defy this system of occupation and apartheid. that's why you see many younger people turning in that direction. but to say that this... but the impact of that is a spiral of violence that we've seen in recent months. i believe, since the beginning of the year, at least 14 israelis have been killed and a far higher number of palestinians as well.

ijust want... you are known throughout your career to be a politician and a rights activist who advocates nonviolence. absolutely. but right now, are you calling for the palestinian authority — which still nominally has control over the towns and cities ijust mentioned — are you calling for the palestinian authority to disarm those militant young men who, in groups like the lions' den, appear now to be intent on using violence against israelis? i would not accept a proposal from the israeli or american side to push palestinians into internalfight and into civil war with each other so that occupation and apartheid will prevail and continue to enslave us. the palestinian authority and these young people in nablus and jenin, as well as we, we are all subjected to a system of enslavement and oppression. that is the reality.

you mentioned 14 israelis killed. since the beginning of this year, 84 palestinians were killed, including 15 children, including a woman who was 69 years old in her own house injenin doing nothing. she was in the kitchen of her house when the israeli army shot her. palestinian civilians are the main victims in this situation. right. but i just want to... i understand the rhetorical point you're making, but in practical terms... it's not a rhetorical story, stephen. this is not rhetorical. this is the reality of our life. i am a medical doctor, as you know. and i've learned through my life that if i want to save a patient, ishould not concentrate only on the symptom of the disease. i should look for the causes of the disease. the cause of everything we have today, including what you call the violence, is the continuous occupation, which is the longest in modern history, 55 years of military

occupation of west bank, gaza and jerusalem. we have been subjected to ethnic cleansing in 1948. six and a half million refugees are outside this country, not allowed to come home, while anyjewish person anywhere in the world, even if his ancestors were not here for thousands of years, can land in the airport, in el�*ad and immediately be granted citizenship. we have been subjected to a system of apartheid. let me explain to you. well, hang on, i have to, if you don't mind, have the opportunity to ask you questions. and the things you are saying are very important, not least because your voice, as i said before, has always been one that has recommended and insisted upon nonviolence. but it seems to me today... and i still do. ..given what you've said about the nature of the israeli government, given what you've said about the state of the situation for palestinians across the west bank,

you seem to be saying that in this constant discussion the palestinians have about the right approach, the right tactics to take, you seem to be saying that right now you are supportive of a return to armed struggle. is that what you are saying? no, that's not what i am saying. that's what you are saying. what i am saying, and actually i have proposed, not only me, but me and my colleagues, a very clear strategy about changing the situation. and our strategy is based on five pillars of struggle, as we call it. first, the activation of popular nonviolent resistance as much as possible. i've been an advocate of nonviolence, but i don't deny palestinian people the right to resist occupation in every possible way that is approved by international law and international humanitarian law, which says that people under occupation have the right to resist occupation as long as they respect international law and international

humanitarian law. and that i support. second... yeah, but, again, language matters. in the recent past, you've described a 13—year—old palestinian boy who shot dead two israelis, a father and son, you described him as, quote unquote, a victim. you've also begun to refer to hamas rockets as, quote, not intended to hit and kill israeli civilians. so it seems to me that on your own journey, you are now beginning to feel that use of violence can be justified. no, stephen, this is not my course. my course, i will explain to you how i changed. all my life, i supported a two—state solution. all my life i supported the establishment of an independent palestinian state in the west bank, gaza, including eastjerusalem. all my life i supported nonviolent resistance. but i tell you, i think israel has killed already the two—state solution and they are presenting us with now one option, which is one apartheid state,

trying to push us out of this country and creating a new ethnic cleansing. and that's why i'm telling you, this is not the solution. and we will never accept to be slaves of occupation or a system of apartheid that is much worse than what prevailed in south africa at one point of time. well... we will demand one democratic state with equal rights, and that means the right of refugees to come back home. it means that we are all enjoying the same rights and the same duties. but to be slaves of a system of occupation while the world continues to use double standard when it comes to israel is unacceptable. allowing israel, which is now having a minister calling... ..calling for killing palestinians if they even participate in nonviolent resistance. and israel, where you have smotrich, who is calling to segregate palestinian and jewish patients from each other if they are in the same hospital.

a person who is demanding that no mixed marriage should be allowed. a fascist, as he calls himself. this man is considered now the governor of the west bank. and his other associate, his other associates... you've made the point about mr smotrich several times and your view of the israeli government today, and you've used the word apartheid, which other palestinians use, but indeed some israeli critics of the current government also use to describe what they fear may become the reality if this government continues with its current policies. apartheid's an interesting word, because it also raises memories and comparisons with, for example, the liberation struggle in south africa and the role of the anc. i would put it to you that a fundamental difference between what we saw in the liberation struggle in south africa and what we see amongst palestinians today

in your communities, we do not see unity. we do not see a coherent leadership in the palestinian communities. we also do not see the same level of support from the international community. let's start with the internal division. how can you present yourselves to the world as a national resistance when you are so deeply divided? i totally agree with you. 0ur internal division is one of our biggest weaknesses. and that's why the strategy i was telling you about, i started with popular resistance, but then i should have continued. the second very important factor is to have a unified national palestinian leadership. and to get to unity, the path is very clear. it's through democratic elections. allowing the people to choose their leaders democratically. but in addition to that, we need the world. we need a campaign of boycott,

divestment, sanctions against the system of apartheid and occupation like it was used before in the case of south africa. we need also to help people steadfast against this terrible system of oppression. you know that 62% of the west bank today is deprived from the right of even building a clinic or a kindergarten or a school. you know that the west bank now is divided by israel in 224 ghettos — or i call them, actually, ghetto stands — separated from each other by 644 military checkpoints, a wall that is. . .that took away 18% of the west bank. and on top of that, we have the settlers and the settlements. we spoke about the israeli army, but we should also speak about the fact that settlers are the ones who are most aggressive today. those are the ones, the mobs, that attacked huwaida, which smotrich also spoke about erasing and...completely from existence.

yes, let's. .. these settlers have... excuse me, just one moment. these settlers have become one of the most important political forces in israel. smotrich himself is a settler. ben—gvir, who was accused of being a terrorist, or at least he was... he belonged to a system, to a party, kach — kahana movement — that was classified as terrorist even in israel. these people are settlers and they have 15 members in the israeli knesset, and they are the ones who are running the show. if i may say so, mr barghouti, you're very keen always to bring the focus back onto what the israeli government is saying and doing. i really want you to focus on what's happening within the palestinian community. you talk about the need for unity. there is no unity whatsoever. we have a palestinian authority which agreed to meet the israelis at the end of february at the so—called aqaba summit, overseen by thejordanians, americans, egyptians. but at the same time, we... at the same time, we have hamas, which remains

committed to resistance, to refusing to recognise the right of the jewish state to exist, and which, according to many of its historical documents, wants to establish a palestinian state from the mediterranean to the jordan. how are you going to bring these palestinian agencies — the pa on one side, hamas on the other — together? it would be very easy if we are allowed at least to have some control over our lives. in reality, the ones who are talking about a state from the river to the sea, they are... ..is the israeli government, which declares in its declared official statement that there is no place for palestinian state. come on, mr barghouti, we know that on both sides of this conflict today there are many people, many palestinians as well as israelis who now say, "we want it all.

"the time for talk of a two—state solution is over, "there will have to be one entity through "that whole territory." stephen, let me answer a couple of questions you asked, please. first of all, it is israel that bombarded or undermined the whole aqaba meeting. i think the aqaba meeting was used as a cover for what israel is doing. the aqaba meeting did not speak about freezing settlement activities. it spoke about freezing only planning for settlements. and, actually, israel hasjust approved 13 new settlements and they continue to build them. they approved 10,000 new units. now, even the planning will not be frozen. that's what smotrich said. he said, "i am the governor of the west bank. "i will not allow this to happen." netanyahu said, "settlement will continue "as it was

"planned," and ben—gvir said, "what happened in aqaba stays in aqaba." so the israeli side, even the little thing that was done in aqaba, was rejected officially by the israeli government. let's be frank here. nobody should continue to blame the victim in this conflict. every... the whole world has not been good with us. there has been constant double standard, blaming the palestinians all the time, regardless of the fact that we have been subjected to occupation, to a system of apartheid and now a terrible amount of violence that is practised not only by the israeli government and the israeli army, but also by israeli settlers who are very, very dangerous. and they could really bring this whole place into a big explosion if they attack al—aqsa mosque as ben—gvir is promising or if they continue to pressure palestinian prisoners, where prisoners are now subjected to an increased amount of oppression.

you, earlier in this conversation, said that, "our national resistance "as palestinians must be "matched by the outside world, putting new levels "of pressure on israel." look at the reality. the united states, led byjoe biden, clearly is not interested in playing a very proactive role and pressuring the israeli government. and if you look at the arab world, you see the peace deals and the diplomatic recognition that has been offered to israel from the gulf, from countries like morocco and sudan. that's the new reality. rather than isolation of israel, israel has made unbelievable inroads which leave you palestinians looking increasingly friendless. actually, now things are changing in the opposite direction. the plan of mr netanyahu was very clear. he said, "i will put aside the palestinian issue. "i'll make peace with the arab countries, normalise "relations with them, and then i might come back

"to palestinians to enforce of them a solution." not solution, actually, but enslavement. in reality, his plan failed. he made some normalisations with the emirates, with bahrain, with all due respect. but look at what happened with saudi arabia. saudi arabia hasjust normalised relations with iran. saudi arabia, in my opinion, changed the whole game. and, in my opinion, this whole process of normalisation is failing, not only because the countries he made peace with are almost irrelevant to the palestinian issue, but also because they are now unable even to receive netanyahu because of the escalation in palestine. the palestinian people are the factor that will determine whether there will be peace and stability here. everything i said to you in this talk... no, this is important. it's not againstjewish

or israeli people. no, no, let me say that — it's not againstjewish or israeli people. it's against apartheid, it's against occupation. these fascists in the israeli government are hurting even the israeli judiciary system now, are hurting what they call democracy, although it is only forjewish people. they are crumbling from within, from inside. netanyahu has never been in a bad situation as he is today, trying to run away from the four cases of corruption that he should be tried for. mr barghouti, just to end, i want to have this quick thought with you. not long ago, before he died, the late saeb erekat spoke to me and he was full of despair. and he said, "stephen, frankly, i have failed." now, he was one of the great advocates and architects of oslo. you didn't believe in the oslo process, but nonetheless you have always believed in a nonviolent solution to the israel—palestine conflict. are you full of despair today? no.

as a matter of fact, i still believe in what i believed in, as you said, and i believe we will overcome this situation. i am actually full of hope. i think the world is beginning to see what israel is really about. they begin to see what netanyahu is about. they begin to see the suffering we are having today. and i also can tell you, i am optimistic that one day we will not only achieve our internal unity, we will not only achieve our internal democracy, which i struggle for, i believe we will reach that day when there will be peace, but a just one. ajust peace. and i believe we will manage to have a one—state solution with full democratic rights for everybody, where palestinians will have to be respected as equal human beings. mustafa barghouti, we have to end there, but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. it's quite mild out there and that's how it's going to stay over the next few days. but with that comes a lot of cloud and occasional outbreaks of rain. and that's what we've got in the headline for thursday. so here's the satellite picture and you can see this thick cloud streaming in from a south—westerly direction. you can see the weather fronts here, a broad area of rain—bearing cloud and that mild current of air all the way from the azores, wrapping around the low pressure, and we've got those weather fronts pushing through. so the forecast through the early hours shows that heavier rain across more northern parts of the country. rain, dribs and drabs, elsewhere and very mild in the morning, about 10 in the south and also in northern ireland. still a little on the chilly side in northern scotland, around two degrees, where, earlier on, we had some snow across the highlands. so the forecast for thursday shows that heavier rain making its journey further north. there will be some rain also

around other western parts of the country, but also sunny spells developing in northern ireland, but also heavy showers, possibly some thunderstorms, too. one or two glimmers of brightness possible also in east anglia and the south—east. mild, up to 15 degrees in some spots, but still chilly in stornoway, 7 degrees, and about 5 degrees in the northern isles. now, that low pressure is still with us on friday. in fact, multiple areas of low pressure and weather fronts sweeping across the country. it won't be raining all the time. in fact, on friday, from the morning onwards, you can see that rain is quite showery out towards the west. also a spell of showery rain for the extreme south—east and also east anglia. there will be some sunny spells, so certainly not raining all the time. temperatures every bit as mild, if not milder, 15 or even 16 celsius. still that colder air sitting in the north and the north—west of scotland, around 8 degrees or so. into the weekend, a very undulating pattern in ourjet stream. and when we see these big ridges in the jet stream,

that means that milder air is still streaming in from the southern climes. and you can see that mild air engulfing many parts of western europe and even reaching central parts of europe as well. so the outlook into next week shows those temperatures into double figures, in fact, hovering around 14, 15 degrees. but with that, a lot of cloud, outbreaks of rain, but sunny spells from time to time, too. bye— bye.

welcome to newsday. reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: the race is on to recover the wreckage of an american surveillance drone. swiss financial regulators discuss stepping in after a share crash at credit suisse causes jitters in european markets. three people charged over an indonesian football arena and authorities in pakistan put imran khan's arrest on hold as violent clashes erupt. three people charged over an indonesian football arena stampede await their fate. voice-over: live voice—0ver: live from our

studio in singapore, this is bbc news.