this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. hello. it's adam in the studio. and chris in the studio. last time we were set here we were with kenneth last time we were sat here we were with kenneth clarke, wading through the budget, and the budget of office responsibility which had another 300 things in it. now that you have had time to sleep on all those things with them

under your pillow, what are your thoughts? 50 under your pillow, what are your thoughts?— under your pillow, what are our thou~hts? ., , your thoughts? so we have been on day two. _ your thoughts? so we have been on day two, today, _ your thoughts? so we have been on day two, today, thursday, . your thoughts? so we have been on day two, today, thursday, of| on day two, today, thursday, of the budget. the big picture thing is that some of the think tanks, westminster�*s brains beyond government have been crunching through it and they have concluded what many a newscaster will know as the kind of bleeding obvious really, but they presented in the spreadsheet and the rest of it, which is that times are really tough people, that wages are squeezed, living standards are squeezed, living standards are squeezed, living standards are squeezed, that household income is squeezed and will be for a while, that the tax burden is the highest it has beenin burden is the highest it has been in yonks and yonks and yonks and is likely to be for a while as well. and then i think as we were discussing on the last edition of the podcast, a lot of the budget was quite kind of nerdy and in the weeds. there is the discussion around child care in england that we talked about, there is this row going on about pensions for very well—paid doctors and others to try and encourage them to stay at work and not retire and spend time in the

garden centre and actually, since then, the whole political discussion has moved on a bit with the whole announcement we were just talking about about tiktok, and then this hoped—for within government, and within some of the unions, resolution to some of the nhs disputes and strikes that we have seen in the last few months.- strikes that we have seen in the last few months. more on that in the — the last few months. more on that in the second _ the last few months. more on that in the second let's - the last few months. more on that in the second let'sjust i that in the second let's just catch up with whatjeremy hunt the chancellor said on bbc breakfast this morning on thursday when he was asked about the fact that the tax burden in the uk is going to be the highest it has been for ages. the highest it has been for aces. ., . the highest it has been for aies, ., ., , ages. for a while, the burden of tax is going _ ages. for a while, the burden of tax is going to _ ages. for a while, the burden of tax is going to be - ages. for a while, the burden of tax is going to be higher, l of tax is going to be higher, but conservatives cut taxes when — but conservatives cut taxes when we _ but conservatives cut taxes when we can, and only last year. — when we can, and only last year. for— when we can, and only last year, for the first time ever in this— year, for the first time ever in this country, you can earn £1000 — in this country, you can earn £1000 a _ in this country, you can earn £1000 a month without paying a penny— £1000 a month without paying a penny of— £1000 a month without paying a penny of tax or national insurance. that is a conservative reform, which lightens _ conservative reform, which lightens the burden on some of our lowest paid.— our lowest paid. now, chris, our lowest paid. now, chris, you mentioned _ our lowest paid. now, chris, you mentioned this, - our lowest paid. now, chris, you mentioned this, the - our lowest paid. now, chris, you mentioned this, the sort our lowest paid. now, chris, i you mentioned this, the sort of resolution to the long—running dispute about pay between the government and lots of nhs

workers in england, which on thursday tea—time sort of reached a denouement. that's a really pretentious word! that is a great _ really pretentious word! that is a great word! _ really pretentious word! twat is a great word! resolution potentially. is a great word! resolution potentially-— is a great word! resolution otentiall . ~ ., ., potentially. well, a resolution ofthe potentially. well, a resolution of the negotiations _ potentially. well, a resolution of the negotiations they - potentially. well, a resolution of the negotiations they were | of the negotiations they were having. of the negotiations they were havinu. ., , ., ., having. lots of the health union have _ having. lots of the health union have been - having. lots of the health union have been talking l having. lots of the health | union have been talking to having. lots of the health - union have been talking to the department of health for a couple of weeks now. they've been moving towards reaching some sort of arrangement pretty much since christmas, and they have come out and said that, yes, they have reached a mutual agreement between the leaders of the unions, most of them, and the department of health, of a 5% pay rise the next financial year, starting in april, plus a one—off payment that won't be to use the jargon consolidated, so it literally is a one—off, it won't be built into future pay settlements, and the leaderships of most of the unions are recommending to their members that they should back it. compromise on both sides because the garment has spent ages saying we are not reopening this year's pay

settlement. they can technically say they aren't doing that but they are bringing more money towards paying this year as far as pay is concerned, and a pay settlement that is not as high as some of the unions wanted, but is higher than the treasury was saying was affordable. so compromise, prevailing wind pointing in the direction of sorting things out that the members get to decide, so we're not quite there yet. there's still the junior doctors still thejunior doctors dispute, and the still the junior doctors dispute, and the union that are not in a place where they want to sign up to a deal. you can kind of see where things are going with the strikes but not quite over yet.— quite over yet. might not feel very over _ quite over yet. might not feel very over if — quite over yet. might not feel very over if you _ quite over yet. might not feel very over if you have - quite over yet. might not feel very over if you have a - quite over yet. might not feel very over if you have a very . very over if you have a very postponed appointment as a result of all this industrial action. loads and loads to chew over with our first guest of this episode, the shadow chancellor rachel reeves. great to be here- _ chancellor rachel reeves. great to be here. this _ chancellor rachel reeves. great to be here. this is _ chancellor rachel reeves. great to be here. this is a _ chancellor rachel reeves. great to be here. this is a nice - to be here. this is a nice tradition _ to be here. this is a nice tradition we _ to be here. this is a nice tradition we have - to be here. this is a nice tradition we have going. to be here. this is a nice i tradition we have going on where there is something big happening in the house of commons fiscally and you come in and talk about it. i commons fiscally and you come in and talk about it.— in and talk about it. i would say quite — in and talk about it. i would say quite a _ in and talk about it. i would say quite a lot _ in and talk about it. i would say quite a lot last - in and talk about it. i would say quite a lot last year - say quite a lot last year because we had four budgets and many— because we had four budgets and many budgets during the course of the _

many budgets during the course of the year, some of which were more _ of the year, some of which were more disastrous than others if i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted _ i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted to _ i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted to a _ i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted to a lot - i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted to a lot of - i remember correctly. anyway. you've reacted to a lot of news this week but one last bit of breaking news, the deal that has been done on the nhs tracks. what is your reaction? i really do hope this does resolve _ i really do hope this does resolve the industrial disputes we have — resolve the industrial disputes we have seen over the last few months — we have seen over the last few months. you will remember last year— months. you will remember last year i _ months. you will remember last year i was — months. you will remember last year i was saying that the government needed to get round the table — government needed to get round the table with public sector workers _ the table with public sector workers and with the trade unions _ workers and with the trade unions. the government said no, we're _ unions. the government said no, we're not — unions. the government said no, we're not going to do that, the office — we're not going to do that, the office the — we're not going to do that, the office the offer. eventually they— office the offer. eventually they did get round the table and i— they did get round the table and i very much hope now this is the — and i very much hope now this is the end _ and i very much hope now this is the end of the industrial unrest _ is the end of the industrial unrest. , ., is the end of the industrial unrest. i. .,, is the end of the industrial unrest. ., unrest. so if you hope that it is that reid _ unrest. so if you hope that it is that reid is _ unrest. so if you hope that it is that reid is a _ unrest. so if you hope that it is that reid is a cross - unrest. so if you hope that it is that reid is a cross to - is that reid is a cross to suggest that you want the members of the trade unions to vote for it, that is labor's position now, is it?- vote for it, that is labor's position now, is it? no, that is their decision, _ position now, is it? no, that is their decision, i'm - is their decision, i'm certainly not going to recommend to nurses or ambulance workers what they decide — ambulance workers what they decide to do, but i do hope that— decide to do, but i do hope that this _ decide to do, but i do hope that this industrial unrest can come — that this industrial unrest can come to— that this industrial unrest can come to an end and a deal can be come to an end and a deal can he done — come to an end and a deal can be done-— be done. but that means they have two back _ be done. but that means they have two back it. _ be done. but that means they have two back it. it _ be done. but that means they have two back it. it meant - have two back it. it meant they have two back it. it meant they have to come _ have two back it. it meant they have to come to _ have two back it. it meant they have to come to a _ have two back it. it meant they have to come to a compromise| have two back it. it meant they i have to come to a compromise on

a couple of the unions have said they will a couple of the unions have said they wil— said they will bucket and recommend _ said they will bucket and recommend it _ said they will bucket and recommend it to - said they will bucket and recommend it to their i said they will bucket and - recommend it to their workers. i recommend it to their workers. iwouid — recommend it to their workers. iwouid not _ recommend it to their workers. i would not want to make a recommendation to them one way or another, — recommendation to them one way or another, that's their decision.— or another, that's their decision. , �* , ., decision. doesn't seem to you like a reasonable _ decision. doesn't seem to you like a reasonable middle - decision. doesn't seem to you l like a reasonable middle ground compromise? it like a reasonable middle ground compromise?— like a reasonable middle ground compromise? it was always going to take compromise _ compromise? it was always going to take compromise on _ compromise? it was always going to take compromise on both - to take compromise on both sides— to take compromise on both sides and that is why it was so frustrating last year when the government said we have made our offer. — government said we have made our offer, we are not going to reopen— our offer, we are not going to reopen any of it, and everyone said _ reopen any of it, and everyone said but— reopen any of it, and everyone said but got to, because that is how— said but got to, because that is how disputes are resolved, and _ is how disputes are resolved, and eventually they did do exactly _ and eventually they did do exactly that. but if they had -ot exactly that. but if they had got around the table earlier on, — got around the table earlier on. we _ got around the table earlier on, we could have avoided all of this, — on, we could have avoided all of this, and the disruption, particularly in our hospitals and — particularly in our hospitals and operations and procedures and operations and procedures and appointments, we could have not had _ and appointments, we could have not had all— and appointments, we could have not had all of that and been in a better— not had all of that and been in a better state because of it. let's — a better state because of it. let's talk— a better state because of it. let's talk about the budget. what is so bad about let letting people save so much that they want to end their pensions?— that they want to end their ensions? �* .. , , .,

pensions? because it requires a bi tax pensions? because it requires a big tax break- — pensions? because it requires a big tax break. usually _ pensions? because it requires a big tax break. usually when - pensions? because it requires a big tax break. usually when we | big tax break. usually when we earn _ big tax break. usually when we earn money, we are taxed on it, at 20. _ earn money, we are taxed on it, at 20, or— earn money, we are taxed on it, at 20, or 40. _ earn money, we are taxed on it, at 20, or40, or in earn money, we are taxed on it, at 20, or 40, or in this case of people. _ at 20, or 40, or in this case of people, 45%. now what the government are proposing is that— government are proposing is that you _ government are proposing is that you can put in as much money— that you can put in as much money over your lifetime, tax-free, _ money over your lifetime, tax—free, a pension, and the cost — tax—free, a pension, and the cost of— tax—free, a pension, and the cost of that, and the cost of the changes they have brought in this— the changes they have brought in this week is just over £1 billion _ in this week is just over £1 billion. 0n the changes that they've _ billion. 0n the changes that they've made will only benefit they've made will only benefit the people with the 1% biggest pension— the people with the 1% biggest pension savings in the country. and at— pension savings in the country. and at the _ pension savings in the country. and at the same time, we know that many— and at the same time, we know that many people, well over a million. — that many people, well over a million, have reduced what they are saving — million, have reduced what they are saving into pensions, because _ are saving into pensions, because they are struggling with— because they are struggling with the cost of living, and taxes _ with the cost of living, and taxes for _ with the cost of living, and taxes for the average family from — taxes for the average family from april are going to go up by an— from april are going to go up by an average of £650. sol just— by an average of £650. sol just don't— by an average of £650. sol just don't think the rate parity— just don't think the rate parity this week was an across—the—board tax break for the too — across—the—board tax break for the too i%~ _ across—the—board tax break for the top 1%. 0f across—the—board tax break for the top 1%. of course we need to resolve _ the top 1%. of course we need to resolve the doctor's issue, and _ to resolve the doctor's issue, and again. _ to resolve the doctor's issue, and again, wes streeting and labor— and again, wes streeting and labor have been saying since

last september there needs to be a _ last september there needs to be a fix — last september there needs to be a fix for doctors so they work — be a fix for doctors so they work more over time and they don't — work more over time and they don't retire so early because of the — don't retire so early because of the punitive pension charges. of the punitive pension charges— of the punitive pension charaes. ., , ., charges. so doctors could have better pensions _ charges. so doctors could have better pensions or _ charges. so doctors could have better pensions or better- charges. so doctors could have better pensions or better tax i better pensions or better tax treatment for their pensions than everyone else? that would be ok? ~ , ., ., , than everyone else? that would be one ,., ., _, be ok? well, there is already a fix forjudges. _ be ok? well, there is already a fix forjudges, so _ be ok? well, there is already a fix forjudges, so this _ fix forjudges, so this wouldn't be just unique actually to doctors, there is already— actually to doctors, there is already special arrangements forjudges pensions, and you could — forjudges pensions, and you could make a fix for doctors, because _ could make a fix for doctors, because that is where there is a big — because that is where there is a big problem. we know because of the _ a big problem. we know because of the lack— a big problem. we know because of the lack of nhs workforce planning over years now, there aren't— planning over years now, there aren't enough doctors in the health— aren't enough doctors in the health service, and as a result there — health service, and as a result there are _ health service, and as a result there are 7_ health service, and as a result there are 7 million people waiting _ there are 7 million people waiting for procedures. that has got _ waiting for procedures. that has got to be cleared. if we can— has got to be cleared. if we can get— has got to be cleared. if we can get more doctors to do more operations— can get more doctors to do more operations more quickly, that would — operations more quickly, that would help resolve that issue, but you — would help resolve that issue, but you do not need to do this for everybody that's got £1 million _ for everybody that's got £1 million plus in pension schemes.— million plus in pension schemes. �* ., , million plus in pension schemes. �* ., schemes. but if there was a relatively — schemes. but if there was a relatively easy _ schemes. but if there was a relatively easy fix _ schemes. but if there was a relatively easy fix that - schemes. but if there was a relatively easy fix that was l relatively easy fix that was more sector specific that the government's perspective at a time of squeezed budgets would save their money, why would

they have not done that? the chancellor — they have not done that? the chancellor said, _ they have not done that? the chancellor said, good question, chris. _ chancellor said, good question, chris. but— chancellor said, good question, chris, but probably one you should _ chris, but probably one you should put to the chancellor not to — should put to the chancellor not to me. the chancellor said in his— not to me. the chancellor said in his statement yesterday that since _ in his statement yesterday that since becoming chancellor he has decided that this is a bigger— has decided that this is a bigger issue thanjust has decided that this is a bigger issue than just doctors, and he — bigger issue than just doctors, and he wants to fix this across the board _ and he wants to fix this across the board. now, look, more than half of— the board. now, look, more than half ofthe — the board. now, look, more than half of the people who have got £1 million plus in pensions i believe _ £1 million plus in pensions i believe are in the private sector~ _ believe are in the private sector. some of them might be able _ sector. some of them might be able to— sector. some of them might be able to save huge amounts in pensions _ able to save huge amounts in pensions. if for example you build — pensions. if for example you build up _ pensions. if for example you build up a _ pensions. if for example you build up a pension pot of £2 million. _ build up a pension pot of £2 million. it— build up a pension pot of £2 million, it means that you will pay £250,000 less in tax than under— pay £250,000 less in tax than under the _ pay £250,000 less in tax than under the arrangements that ewist— under the arrangements that exist today. ijust don't think that— exist today. ijust don't think that is— exist today. ijust don't think that is the right priority. but why should _ that is the right priority. elf why should they, why should a judge or a doctor have a better tax arrangement, as far as their pensions are concerned, than somebody in the private sector? , ., than somebody in the private sector? , . . ., sector? there is a particular issue around _ sector? there is a particular issue around doctors - sector? there is a particular issue around doctors at - sector? there is a particular issue around doctors at the | issue around doctors at the moment— issue around doctors at the moment and we have declare this backlog — moment and we have declare this backlor. ,, , ., , backlog. sure, but how is it fair, backlog. sure, but how is it fair. why — backlog. sure, but how is it fair. why is— backlog. sure, but how is it fair, why is it _ backlog. sure, but how is it fair, why is it fair? - backlog. sure, but how is it fair, why is it fair? it - backlog. sure, but how is it fair, why is it fair? it is - fair, why is it fair? it is about whether - fair, why is it fair? it is about whether it - fair, why is it fair? it is about whether it is - fair, why is it fair? it is about whether it is a i fair, why is it fair? it is i

about whether it is a good fair, why is it fair? it is - about whether it is a good use of taxpayers money, and i think it is a _ of taxpayers money, and i think it is a good _ of taxpayers money, and i think it is a good use at the moment to get— it is a good use at the moment to get doctors to do over time, and to— to get doctors to do over time, and to choose to stay in work a bit longer— and to choose to stay in work a bit longer than they are currently doing so. so we would make _ currently doing so. so we would make that — currently doing so. so we would make that fix, because it is good — make that fix, because it is good value for money for taxpayers, and in the end that's— taxpayers, and in the end that's what the chancellor has to make — that's what the chancellor has to make a decision on. sol would _ to make a decision on. sol would back that but not across—the—board... so would back that but not across-the-board. .. so someone in the city — across-the-board. .. so someone in the city who — across-the-board. .. so someone in the city who owns _ across-the-board. .. so someone in the city who owns a _ across-the-board. .. so someone in the city who owns a fortune, i in the city who owns a fortune, pays a fortune in tax, they are not as worthy of that saving and should pay more tax? ln not as worthy of that saving and should pay more tax? in the end it is about _ and should pay more tax? in the end it is about political- end it is about political choices. if you have £1 billion to make _ choices. if you have £1 billion to make a _ choices. if you have £1 billion to make a permanent tax cut with, _ to make a permanent tax cut with, which is what the chancellor did yesterday, you have — chancellor did yesterday, you have to — chancellor did yesterday, you have to decide where that money should _ have to decide where that money should go — have to decide where that money should go. i personally think if you — should go. i personally think if you are _ should go. i personally think if you are going to be reducing tax burdens were people it should _ tax burdens were people it should be those on more modest incomes— should be those on more modest incomes who are facing as i said — incomes who are facing as i said before an increase in their— said before an increase in their taxes, said before an increase in theirtaxes, both said before an increase in their taxes, both because of their taxes, both because of the fiscal— their taxes, both because of the fiscal drag, people being dragged into paying higher taxes _ dragged into paying higher taxes because the tax brackets have _ taxes because the tax brackets have not— taxes because the tax brackets have not kept in line with inflation, and also because council— inflation, and also because council tax is going to be going _ council tax is going to be going up in april. so you have

to make — going up in april. so you have to make choices as a politician and my— to make choices as a politician and my choice would not be this tax break— and my choice would not be this tax break for the 1%. i�*m and my choice would not be this tax break for the 1%.— tax break for the 1%. i'm glad ou tax break for the 1%. i'm glad you mentioned _ tax break for the 1%. i'm glad you mentioned fiscal- tax break for the 1%. i'm glad you mentioned fiscal drag, i tax break for the 1%. i'm glad i you mentioned fiscal drag, one of my favourite buzzwords around this time of year! laughter easily pleased! what is to one microcosmic position on that, would you be increasing that every year if you were chancellor? no more of these phrases that raise money down the line. h phrases that raise money down the line. ., phrases that raise money down the line. . ., , ., the line. i want taxes on working _ the line. i want taxes on working people - the line. i want taxes on working people to - the line. i want taxes on working people to be - the line. i want taxes on working people to be as| the line. i want taxes on - working people to be as low as they— working people to be as low as they can, — working people to be as low as they can, but the public finances at the moment are in a real mess _ finances at the moment are in a real mess. sol finances at the moment are in a real mess. so i can't make a commitment tojust real mess. so i can't make a commitment to just reverse this, — commitment to just reverse this, because the money isjust not there — this, because the money isjust not there in the public finances. it is why i have said that— finances. it is why i have said that my— finances. it is why i have said that my number one priority, and _ that my number one priority, and keir— that my number one priority, and keir starmer set out the missions— and keir starmer set out the missions of an incoming labor -- labour— missions of an incoming labor —— labour government, it is to have _ —— labour government, it is to have the — —— labour government, it is to have the highest growth in the g7 have the highest growth in the 67 because it is only through growth — 67 because it is only through growth that you have the money to improve living standards,

keep— to improve living standards, keep taxes low and have money to public— keep taxes low and have money to public services. 30 keep taxes low and have money to public services.— to public services. so you're not saying _ to public services. so you're not saying when _ to public services. so you're not saying when i _ to public services. so you're not saying when i am - to public services. so you're - not saying when i am chancellor i promise income taxes would go up i promise income taxes would go up with inflation every year? you will abolish fiscal drag? adam, i would like to be able to say— adam, i would like to be able to say that but that requires their— to say that but that requires their being the money available and that— their being the money available and that requires growing the economy, which is why i have put economy, which is why i have out so — economy, which is why i have put so much focus on the plan for growth. put so much focus on the plan for growth-— for growth. when you were on laura's show _ for growth. when you were on laura's show on _ for growth. when you were on laura's show on sunday, - for growth. when you were on laura's show on sunday, or i for growth. when you were on laura's show on sunday, or a | laura's show on sunday, or a few sundays ago, i lose track... lt few sundays ago, i lose track- - -_ few sundays ago, i lose track... . , ,, ._ track... it was the sunday. what a long _ track... it was the sunday. what a long week! - track... it was the sunday. what a long week! i - track... it was the sunday. what a long week! i know| track... it was the sunday. i what a long week! i know to some people picking up on social media, this pledge he made at conference a few years ago, and i remember being there, it was something like 28 billion a year on green technology and getting to net zero. but now you are saying oh, if the public finances allow. so is that 28 billion definitely going to happen every year under the labour government, or is it only if the economy is growing and you can quote and quick pay for it? that's what i said in a conference in 2021, i set out

the fiscal— conference in 2021, i set out the fiscal rules that an incoming labour government would — incoming labour government would abide by, subject to that investing — would abide by, subject to that investing in the things that will grow our economy. but if i look— will grow our economy. but if i look at — will grow our economy. but if i look at the _ will grow our economy. but if i look at the public finance numbers, there is the room to make — numbers, there is the room to make those investments, and actually, _ make those investments, and actually, a good chancellor has -ot actually, a good chancellor has got to — actually, a good chancellor has got to know when to say no, and iam— got to know when to say no, and i am absolutely willing and happy _ i am absolutely willing and happy to say to people, as i've 'ust happy to say to people, as i've just said — happy to say to people, as i've just said on the fiscal drag issue. _ just said on the fiscal drag issue. i_ just said on the fiscal drag issue, i can't promise to do everything i want to do straightaway. i can't make spending commitments without saying — spending commitments without saying whether money is going to come — saying whether money is going to come from, but also a good chancellor— to come from, but also a good chancellor needs to know when to say— chancellor needs to know when to say yes _ chancellor needs to know when to say yes to good investments that can — to say yes to good investments that can boost our productivity and growth, and i do take inspiration from what president biden— inspiration from what president biden is— inspiration from what president biden is doing in the us, to boost — biden is doing in the us, to boost investment and growth into the — boost investment and growth into the us, you know, turning the rust— into the us, you know, turning the rust belt into an electric vehicle — the rust belt into an electric vehicle belt, attracting good manufacturing jobs to the us, getting — manufacturing jobs to the us, getting that inward investment. and my— getting that inward investment. and my real worry is that the uk is — and my real worry is that the uk is losing out in this global

race — uk is losing out in this global race for— uk is losing out in this global race for the jobs and industries of the future, which is why— industries of the future, which is why actually that green prosperity plan that i announced in september 2021 is even _ announced in september 2021 is even more relevant and even more — even more relevant and even more important today, because other— more important today, because other countries are now stealing a march on us. how often do _ stealing a march on us. how often do you _ stealing a march on us. how often do you say _ stealing a march on us. how often do you say no - stealing a march on us. how often do you say no to - stealing a march on us. how often do you say no to yourl often do you say no to your colleagues, relative to when you say yes?— you say yes? laughter would have _ you say yes? laughter would have to - you say yes? laughter would have to get - you say yes? laughter would have to get them you say yes? laughter i would have to get them in answer— would have to get them in answer that! would have to get them in answerthat! but would have to get them in answer that! but i think my colleagues respect me, i hope they— colleagues respect me, i hope they respect me for it, because they respect me for it, because the easiest thing would be do we want _ the easiest thing would be do we want more money in transport, do we want more money— transport, do we want more money in — transport, do we want more money in schools, in childcare, in the — money in schools, in childcare, in the nhs? so many things are not working properly. 0f in the nhs? so many things are not working properly. of course i not working properly. of course i want _ not working properly. of course i want to — not working properly. of course i want to make investments in our public— i want to make investments in our public services, of course i our public services, of course i want — our public services, of course i want to— our public services, of course i want to reduce the tax burden on working people, but liz truss— on working people, but liz truss and kwasi kwarteng last september, and we spoke about this at— september, and we spoke about this at the time, made a load of unfunded tax cuts, and they crash — of unfunded tax cuts, and they crash the — of unfunded tax cuts, and they crash the economy. i'm not going — crash the economy. i'm not going to _ crash the economy. i'm not going to make either unfunded

tax cuts — going to make either unfunded tax cuts or unfunded spending commitments, because that is the way— commitments, because that is the way to ruin, and i will always— the way to ruin, and i will always have, at the heart of my economic— always have, at the heart of my economic strategy and policy, is that— economic strategy and policy, is that rock of economic and financial— is that rock of economic and financial stability. but that's the fundamental _ financial stability. but that's the fundamental truth, - financial stability. but that's the fundamental truth, isn'tj the fundamental truth, isn't it, if you guys are in government in a year, 18 months�* time, what you�*re going to inherit, where we have a tax burden, generationally high, the room for manoeuvre, if you guys, or if the conservatives win, what they could do, to do things that are significantly different is really constrained. what you can promise that will be substantially different, given where taxing and spending is? it's where taxing and spending is? it�*s true to say there�*s big it's true to say there's big constraints on what an incoming labour— constraints on what an incoming labour government can do. we may— labour government can do. we may not— labour government can do. we may not be able to do everything we want as quickly as we — everything we want as quickly as we want. keir and i everything we want as quickly as we want. keirand i have both— as we want. keirand i have both said _ as we want. keirand i have both said that. let me give you a couple — both said that. let me give you a couple of— both said that. let me give you a couple of examples of different choices i would have made — different choices i would have made if — different choices i would have made if it was a labour budget. i made if it was a labour budget. i have _ made if it was a labour budget. i have already spoken about growth _ i have already spoken about growth and the importance of those — growth and the importance of those industries of the future.

but if— those industries of the future. but if you _ those industries of the future. but if you look for example at what — but if you look for example at what is — but if you look for example at what is happening with energy bills and — what is happening with energy bills and the profits of energy companies, it wasjanuary bills and the profits of energy companies, it was january 2022 ifirst— companies, it was january 2022 i first called for a windfall tax on _ i first called for a windfall tax on the big profits the energy— tax on the big profits the energy giants are making. at the time, _ energy giants are making. at the time, rishi sunak as chancellor resisted that, and eventually they came in with an energy— eventually they came in with an energy profits levy. it had so many — energy profits levy. it had so many holes in it, it meant that shell— many holes in it, it meant that shell didn't pay a penny of that— shell didn't pay a penny of that energy profits levy last year~ — that energy profits levy last year~ i_ that energy profits levy last year. i said that labour would fix the — year. i said that labour would fix the holes in that, get rid of those _ fix the holes in that, get rid of those loopholes, we believe that would raise another £10 billion — that would raise another £10 billion i_ that would raise another £10 billion. i welcome the fact the government said they would freeze — government said they would freeze gas and electricity bills _ freeze gas and electricity bills for a further three months, instead of funding that through— months, instead of funding that through tax receipts or borrowing, they could have funded _ borrowing, they could have funded it from the energy

giants _ funded it from the energy giants. that's a different choice _ giants. that's a different choice that labour would make compared to the conservatives. i compared to the conservatives. i have _ compared to the conservatives. i have just _ compared to the conservatives. i have just remembered we were talking about fiscal drag a few minutes ago. the conversation from a few days ago, the lesser known sibling of fiscal drag — moral hazard. known sibling of fiscal drag - moral hazard.— moral hazard. that banking crisis. taking _ moral hazard. that banking crisis. taking us _ moral hazard. that banking crisis. taking us back- moral hazard. that banking crisis. taking us back to - moral hazard. that banking . crisis. taking us back to 2008. someone — crisis. taking us back to 2008. someone mentioned it in the context of the whole row about the silicon valley bank on the west coast of america.- west coast of america. that's the argument _ west coast of america. that's the argument made, - west coast of america. that's the argument made, you - west coast of america. that's| the argument made, you can't bail out — the argument made, you can't bail out someone. you need to allow— bail out someone. you need to allow things to fail.— allow things to fail. would you rive the allow things to fail. would you give the government - allow things to fail. would you give the government credit. allow things to fail. would you j give the government credit for wrapping up the whole silicon valley bank over a weekend and no cost at the taxpayer? l no cost at the taxpayer? i welcome the fact that hsbc have taken _ welcome the fact that hsbc have taken on — welcome the fact that hsbc have taken on the clients. i hope it's the _ taken on the clients. i hope it's the end of the matter. i have — it's the end of the matter. i have been following what has been — have been following what has been happening at credit suisse this week. �* , this week. and the 'ittery marketsfi this week. and the 'ittery markets around _ this week. and the jittery markets around the - this week. and the jittery l markets around the world. hopefully now the swiss government has stepped in with, you know. — government has stepped in with, you know, a huge deal with credit—

you know, a huge deal with credit suisse, have calmed things— credit suisse, have calmed things down. it certainly looks like that— things down. it certainly looks like that for now. but we've said — like that for now. but we've said to _ like that for now. but we've said to the government, they do need _ said to the government, they do need to— said to the government, they do need to look at the impact of rapidly— need to look at the impact of rapidly rising interest rates on financial substantial. we've not to on financial substantial. we've got to let _ on financial substantial. we've got to let you _ on financial substantial. we've got to let you go. _ on financial substantial. we've got to let you go. there's - on financial substantial. we've got to let you go. there's a . got to let you go. there�*s a takeaway curry waiting for you at home. laughter would you like to reveal that? which i�*m very much looking which i'm very much looking forward _ which i'm very much looking forward to. we discussed what i was going — forward to. we discussed what i was going to drink when i got home — was going to drink when i got home. ~ ., ., ,, was going to drink when i got home. ~ ., ., ., was going to drink when i got home. ~ ., ., .. , home. what do you wash a curry down with? _ home. what do you wash a curry down with? now _ home. what do you wash a curry down with? now that _ home. what do you wash a curry down with? now that you - home. what do you wash a curry down with? now that you ask, i home. what do you wash a curry down with? now that you ask, a| down with? now that you ask, a class of down with? now that you ask, a glass of red _ down with? now that you ask, a glass of red wine. _ down with? now that you ask, a glass of red wine. marvellous. i glass of red wine. marvellous. garlic or pain _ glass of red wine. marvellous. garlic or pain naan? _ glass of red wine. marvellous. garlic or pain naan? plain. - garlic or pain naan? plain. let's do — garlic or pain naan? plain. let's do a _ garlic or pain naan? plain. let's do a food _ garlic or pain naan? plain. let's do a food podcast, i let�*s do a food podcast, they�*re very popular! rachel reeves, thank you very much. thank you very much.- thank you very much. right, should we — thank you very much. right, should we go _ thank you very much. right, should we go back _ thank you very much. right, should we go back to - thank you very much. right, should we go back to where l thank you very much. right, i should we go back to where we actually started that conversation with rachel reeves, the deal struck between the department for health and lots of the unions representing nhs workers who have been on strike. that�*s nurses, paramedics, all sorts of people who work in hospitals, who

basically can�*t doctors and other bits of the nhs as well. we can chat to someone who has been at the heart of those negotiations, it�*s sarah gorton, head of health at the union unison. i rememberthe days of the brexit negotiations. they were physically tiring for the people involved in that. lots of late night pizzas and stuff. has that been your experiences of the negotiations? little has that been your experiences of the negotiations?— of the negotiations? no pizzas but lots and _ of the negotiations? no pizzas but lots and lots _ of the negotiations? no pizzas but lots and lots of _ of the negotiations? no pizzas but lots and lots of late - but lots and lots of late nights. it�*s been a very fascinating process. i�*m sure at some point after i slept, some of it would seem like fun. it definitely stretched the sort of robustness of the relationships on all sides. 0oh, really? that sounds like there may have been some table thumping. flat there may have been some table thuminu. ., ., there may have been some table thuminu. ., , thumping. not table thumping, no. remember _ thumping. not table thumping, no. remember the _ thumping. not table thumping, no. remember the health - thumping. not table thumping, | no. remember the health sector in particular is dominated by trade unions full of female members. and we had a lot of

women negotiators in the room. and in fact, just thinking about our trade union side, the vast majority of us were women. you know, when we walk into those rooms, you know, there was seven of us on our side negotiating from the health trade unions. and we know that we are representing 1.3 million health workers. and you know, you name checked quite a few of the groups that got lots of the air time the groups that got lots of the airtime during the groups that got lots of the air time during the dispute, the nurses and paramedics, but actually this is about the whole health team. and on picket lines up and down the country, there�*s been cleaners, health care assistance, porters, dietitians, physiotherapists. this is the whole health team. you know, very recently, the most recent batch of strike mandates we got included workers in the nhs blood and transport service. you know, really vital service

that often goes unnoticed. we take our responsibilities to talk up for those people very seriously. talk up for those people very seriously-— seriously. isn't it the truth that both _ seriously. isn't it the truth that both sides _ seriously. isn't it the truth that both sides have - seriously. isn't it the truth i that both sides have budged, there�*s been compromise and that�*s where we have ended up where we are. in a private negotiation that has to be presented publicly, they need to get to a place where either side can say, "we were right all along, we needed to do what we did, our approach is pragmatic and we think this is a victory." pragmatic and we think this is a victory- '— a victory." that's the art of negotiation. _ a victory." that's the art of negotiation. everyone - a victory." that's the art of. negotiation. everyone walks away feeling a bit disgruntled. there�*s things i can look at in the package and think it could have been better, fairer. if you look at the way the lump sum is constructed, it�*s a decent chunk of cash, it�*s heading around 3 — £3 billion worth of extra investment in the health workforce, not to be sniffed at. when you look at the payments, they�*re decent

sums of money, stretching from just over £1600 to £4,000, and most of the registered occupations getting over £2,000. that's a occupations getting over £2,000. that�*s a considerable sum. you look at the way it�*s constructed and in a cost of living crisis, lots of people would look at that and say why aren�*t the figures the other way around. d0 aren't the figures the other way around-— aren't the figures the other way around. aren't the figures the other wa around. i. ., ., way around. do you demand from the government _ way around. do you demand from the government they _ way around. do you demand from the government they don't - way around. do you demand from the government they don't pay i the government they don�*t pay for this by cutting other bits of the nhs so the sums add up for them?— of the nhs so the sums add up for them? that was clear in the negotiations. — for them? that was clear in the negotiations, there _ for them? that was clear in the negotiations, there was - for them? that was clear in the negotiations, there was no - negotiations, there was no intention to cut health services to pay for this. what counts as _ services to pay for this. what counts as a — services to pay for this. what counts as a health _ services to pay for this. what counts as a health service? i counts as a health service? someone in government was saying to me, we don�*t cut "front—line services" but it seems to me that�*s quite a fuzzy concept as to exactly what that is.— what that is. exactly. the devilwill_ what that is. exactly. the devil will be _ what that is. exactly. the devil will be in _ what that is. exactly. the devil will be in the - what that is. exactly. thej devil will be in the detail, won�*t it. devil will be in the detail, won't it-_ devil will be in the detail, won't it. you were talking about the _

won't it. you were talking about the stamina - won't it. you were talking. about the stamina required won't it. you were talking - about the stamina required on all sides. what was the latest at night you ended up working till? room or digitally in the room negotiating with the government?— room negotiating with the government? the talks were constructed _ government? the talks were constructed with _ government? the talks were constructed with a _ government? the talks were constructed with a range - government? the talks were constructed with a range of i constructed with a range of different types of sessions. so, i mean, it was a really interesting process. and we were using — we were using the nice conference rooms at the top of the department of health which used to be the secretary of state�*s office. which used to be the secretary of state's office.— of state's office. with the cctv camera! _ of state's office. with the cctv camera! with - of state's office. with the cctv camera! with the i of state's office. with the - cctv camera! with the camera. there was _ cctv camera! with the camera. there was no — cctv camera! with the camera. there was no snogging, - cctv camera! with the camera. there was no snogging, as - cctv camera! with the camera. there was no snogging, as far. there was no snogging, as far as i witnessed. they�*re really, really nice rooms, really well set up. we have plenary sessions chaired by the secretary of state, normally two or three of those a day, to cover off the points in progress where, you know, we have updates on where we got to with particular points of work. did you go to midnight? flat

did you go to midnight? not one did you go to midnight? not gone midnight. _ did you go to midnight? errf gone midnight. last night it was very, very late but not quite midnight. it was very late when i got home. but i didn�*t leave after midnight any night. certainly my family have not seen much of me. i haven�*t been much help with the gcsc revision. ., ., , ., revision. how would you describe _ revision. how would you describe steve - revision. how would you describe steve bark- revision. how would you | describe steve bark lay? revision. how would you - describe steve bark lay? he is someone _ describe steve bark lay? he is someone with _ describe steve bark lay? he is someone with lots _ describe steve bark lay? he is someone with lots of - describe steve bark lay? he is someone with lots of energy. | describe steve bark lay? he is| someone with lots of energy. i wouldn�*t say ooze, i wouldn�*t say ooze in any context. don�*t like that word. particularly not when you connect it with any kind of individuals. individuals oozing is probably a bit icky. he was very energetic and he was obviously very committed to, you know, i sort of expected that the meetings would be — that he would delegate that role to the nhs employers, who the

department kind — they contract them to deliver the, that kind of bargaining. for the health service. so, it was quite surprising to me that he was going to take personal responsibility. going to take personal resonsibili . �* ., , ., responsibility. admirable from this perspective, _ responsibility. admirable from this perspective, do _ responsibility. admirable from this perspective, do you - responsibility. admirable from | this perspective, do you think? well, i don�*t know. i mean, you have to ask the employers. and figure out what they would have given us and see whether we got a better deal.— a better deal. yes, still negotiating _ a better deal. yes, still negotiating even - a better deal. yes, still negotiating even when | a better deal. yes, still. negotiating even when you a better deal. yes, still- negotiating even when you have agreed a deal! you negotiating even when you have agreed a deal!— agreed a deal! you now need to neuotiate agreed a deal! you now need to negotiate with _ agreed a deal! you now need to negotiate with your _ agreed a deal! you now need to negotiate with your members i negotiate with your members because — negotiate with your members because you're recommending they— because you're recommending they vote _ because you're recommending they vote for it. some people have — they vote for it. some people have questions and other people going _ have questions and other people going i_ have questions and other people going i would have liked some more. — going i would have liked some more, because actually it's still— more, because actually it's still not _ more, because actually it's still not really pay keeping up with inflation, even with an inflation _ with inflation, even with an inflation plus pay increase for next — inflation plus pay increase for next year~ _ inflation plus pay increase for next year. we'll let you have a well _ next year. we'll let you have a well earned rest.— well earned rest. thank you very much- _ well earned rest. thank you very much. if— well earned rest. thank you very much. if you _ well earned rest. thank you very much. if you had - well earned rest. thank you very much. if you had a - well earned rest. thank you i very much. if you had a rachel reeves style — very much. if you had a rachel reeves style curry _ very much. if you had a rachel reeves style curry alongside i reeves style curry alongside his episode of news cast, i hope you enjoyed it and this podcast. that�*s by. l�*m

hope you enjoyed it and this podcast. that's by.— hope you enjoyed it and this podcast. that's by. i'm off for a korma- _ hello. thursday brought a fair amount of rain for some parts of the uk, but it also brought northern ireland its warmest day of the year so far, with temperatures peaking just above 16 celsiusat helens bay, not too far away from belfast. it�*s all because of low pressure, the centre of which you can see swirling here on our earlier satellite image. that has been bringing rain in places, but it�*s also been drawing warm air, or at least mild air, up from the south, and it will continue to do so during friday. the far north of scotland sticking with something just a little bit chillier, because here we�*ve got a northerly wind, a band of cloud and some patchy rain to start friday. elsewhere, this area of wet weather moving across southeast england and east anglia. some of that rain could

turn heavy and thundery for a time before clearing. and then for most of us, it is a story of sunny spells and showers. again, some of the showers could be heavy with some flashes of lightning, some rumbles of thunder mixing in. but in between the showers, there will be a decent amount of sunshine, maybe not quite as mild as it was on thursday across northern ireland. highest temperatures, perhaps a little further east, 16 celsius there in newcastle. but with these northerly winds, it will be a little bit chillier across the likes of caithness and sutherland, 0rkney and shetland, six celsius, for example, in lerwick. the northerly wind continues here into the evening. elsewhere, southerly winds pushing areas of cloud and rain northwards. i think it will turn quite misty and murky in places. a little bit chilly in the far north, again, one celsius there for lerwick, but elsewhere generally between 6—9 celsius to start saturday morning. now, for the start of the weekend, this area of low pressure will be transiting eastwards across the uk, near the centre of the low, very light winds. so that means where the showers do pop up through saturday, they are likely to be very slow moving.

if you catch a shower, it could be with you for quite some time. again, some could be heavy and thundery, some sunny spells in between, the chance for some slightly more persistent rain into northern ireland and especially northwest scotland. again, it is going to be mild, ten celsius degrees for aberdeen, 12 celsius for belfast, perhaps 14 celsius in norwich and in london. and then we get to sunday, not as many showers on sunday. there should be some spells of sunshine around, although cloud will roll in from the west, bringing some rain into northern ireland and perhaps western scotland later in the day. perhaps not feeling quite as mild at this stage, but still not bad for the time of year, 9—14 celsius.

welcome to bbc news. i�*m lisa—marie misztak. our top stories — a $30 billion rescue package is confirmed, as 11 top us banks step in to shore up the embattled first republic. anger in france, after the government pushes through pension reform without a vote. we have a special report on the front line of eastern ukraine, and the fighters resisting the russian advance. talks between the leaders of south korea and japan are hailed as a milestone in their previously tense relationship. and the families on a remote scottish island with a high risk of cancer, after scientists discover a harmful gene.