inflation — you guessed it — that's going up, too. we've seen signs of inflation really peaking now. but of course, it's far too high. the opposite to what the prime minister claims to you. we're halving inflation by paying 50% of people's energy bills and freezing fuel duty. not yet, he's not. there's price pressure on everyone — just as the extent of sunak and starmer�*s income is revealed. mega wealth for one, doing rather well for the other one — as official figures for the first time reveal very different numbers. more than two million people using foodbanks just to get by. a lot of the time, it means either starving or getting something to eat. so we have one big question this morning — when will everyone start to feel better off?

this man does the sums that tell the government how much money they have to spend. but why do they sometimes get it wrong? we'll ask the boss of indepent organisation the obr, richard hughes. it's michael gove�*s job to make sure the chance of a good life is spread fairly across the land, but can he level the country up when living standards are going down? labour's lucy powell has big plans for the bbc — what's the problem she's trying to fix? and remember this act of courage? marina ovsyannikova famously interrupted live tv in russia to protest against the war in ukraine. she'll tell us about her astonishing escape. translation: i was thinking it was better for me _ translation: i was thinking it was better for me to _ translation: i was thinking it was better for me to go _ translation: i was thinking it was better for me to go back _ translation: i was thinking it was better for me to go back to - translation: i was thinking it was better for me to go back to russia, | better for me to go back to russia, back to prison, but my daughter was saying, we have to go, we have to

cross the border.— cross the border. more of her amazin: cross the border. more of her amazing story _ cross the border. more of her amazing story in _ cross the border. more of her amazing story in about - cross the border. more of her amazing story in about half. cross the border. more of her| amazing story in about half an cross the border. more of her- amazing story in about half an hour. and welcome to my panel this morning. andy haldane, one of the best economic brains in the country, who spent many years as bank of england top brass. christiana figueres was once the un's top climate chief. and thejohn lewis boss turned conservative mayor of the west midlands, andy street. morning, morning. i promise you that way we'll be bringing you themes to be cheerful about as well as some grim news. but let's see what is getting people going this morning, straight to the front pages. a bit of a mixed bag today, the front of the sunday times has a story that says children as young as eight are being

strip—searched. the observer has a story that has caused red faces in the tory party, a sting where mps are of a £10,000 a day to work for a fake company. the tabloids, a mixed bag, the potential first minister kate forbes is on the front page of the mail in scotland. and the government's promised blitz on anti—social behaviour is on the sunday express. but let's talk about our panel about the bigger picture of what is going on in the country, inflation going up by surprise, interest rates going up again, andy, is it going to come down as the bank of england and the government hopes by the end of the? yes. of england and the government hopes by the end of the?— by the end of the? yes. i think it is re by the end of the? yes. i think it is pretty much — by the end of the? yes. i think it is pretty much nailed _ by the end of the? yes. i think it is pretty much nailed on. - by the end of the? yes. i think it is pretty much nailed on. good l is pretty much nailed on. good morning, by the way. as the effect of last yea r�*s morning, by the way. as the effect of last year's energy prices fall out, we will see inflation falling pretty rapidly in the next month or so, i think. pretty rapidly in the next month or so, ithink. but pretty rapidly in the next month or so, i think-—

so, i think. but by how much? the bank and the _ so, i think. but by how much? the bank and the government - so, i think. but by how much? the| bank and the government suggests down to 3%. bank and the government suggests down to 396-— down to 396. that is not out of the cuestion. down to 396. that is not out of the question- into _ down to 396. that is not out of the question. into the _ down to 396. that is not out of the question. into the second - down to 396. that is not out of the question. into the second half- down to 396. that is not out of the question. into the second half of. question. into the second half of the, we will see things be a little bit better for the average household after a horrible income squeeze over the last 18 months or so. fine after a horrible income squeeze over the last 18 months or so.— the last 18 months or so. one of the thins the last 18 months or so. one of the things about — the last 18 months or so. one of the things about this _ the last 18 months or so. one of the things about this is _ the last 18 months or so. one of the things about this is the _ the last 18 months or so. one of the things about this is the difference i things about this is the difference between what people have on spreadsheets and how they feel, andy, you represent millions of people in the west midlands. does the economy feel like it is working for the people you represent? goad for the people you represent? good morninu. for the people you represent? good morning- the _ for the people you represent? good morning. the answer _ for the people you represent? good morning. the answer is _ for the people you represent? good morning. the answer is that it is a mixed _ morning. the answer is that it is a mixed picture. if you are right at the bottom of income levels, facing spending _ the bottom of income levels, facing spending a — the bottom of income levels, facing spending a lot of your money on heating — spending a lot of your money on heating and food, it is really tough, — heating and food, it is really tough, we can see that. but what we also see _ tough, we can see that. but what we also see in_ tough, we can see that. but what we also see in our economy is after the bil also see in our economy is after the big adjustment from covid, some of our traditional sectors were hit hard, _ our traditional sectors were hit hard. and _ our traditional sectors were hit hard, and we are seeing incredible growth _ hard, and we are seeing incredible growth in— hard, and we are seeing incredible growth in new areas, technology, the green _ growth in new areas, technology, the green economy, and actually construction and professional services _ construction and professional services coming back strongly, so i mixed _ services coming back strongly, so i mixed picture. you

services coming back strongly, so i mixed picture-— services coming back strongly, so i mixed picture. you have been cross about how the _ mixed picture. you have been cross about how the government - mixed picture. you have been cross about how the government has - mixed picture. you have been cross| about how the government has tried to spread some of the country's wealth, such as it is, accusing the levelling plan of being asking people like you to go to whitehall with a begging bowl. find people like you to go to whitehall with a begging bowl.— people like you to go to whitehall with a begging bowl. and there has been a decisive _ with a begging bowl. and there has been a decisive response _ with a begging bowl. and there has been a decisive response in - with a begging bowl. and there has been a decisive response in the - with a begging bowl. and there has| been a decisive response in the last couple _ been a decisive response in the last couple of— been a decisive response in the last couple of weeks, which i'm sure you might— couple of weeks, which i'm sure you might talk— couple of weeks, which i'm sure you might talk to michael about any devolution deal that has been struck for us _ devolution deal that has been struck for us and _ devolution deal that has been struck for us and greater manchester, where we move _ for us and greater manchester, where we move to _ for us and greater manchester, where we move to trusting regions with a bil we move to trusting regions with a big sum _ we move to trusting regions with a big sum of— we move to trusting regions with a big sum of money, a single pot as it has been _ big sum of money, a single pot as it has been called, and we take decisions _ has been called, and we take decisions locally, so i decisive change — decisions locally, so i decisive change in _ decisions locally, so i decisive change in direction.— decisions locally, so i decisive change in direction. have you got all the power _ change in direction. have you got all the power that _ change in direction. have you got all the power that you _ change in direction. have you got all the power that you want - change in direction. have you got all the power that you want now? change in direction. have you got - all the power that you want now? we never have everything we want, but the boot— never have everything we want, but the boot is— never have everything we want, but the boot is on the other foot, we have _ the boot is on the other foot, we have to — the boot is on the other foot, we have to demonstrate what we will do with it _ have to demonstrate what we will do with it to _ have to demonstrate what we will do with it to show the trust is well placed — with it to show the trust is well laced. ., , , ., placed. one of the things you mentioned — placed. one of the things you mentioned is _ placed. one of the things you mentioned is food _ placed. one of the things you mentioned is food inflation, l mentioned is food inflation, christiana figueres, one of the things that you have looked at. is food always going to be expensive as we carry on with things as they are? that very much depends on how we are producing _

that very much depends on how we are producing food, — that very much depends on how we are producing food, so— that very much depends on how we are producing food, so let's _ that very much depends on how we are producing food, so let's look _ that very much depends on how we are producing food, so let's look a - producing food, so let's look a little _ producing food, so let's look a little bit — producing food, so let's look a little bit under— producing food, so let's look a little bit under the _ producing food, so let's look a little bit under the hood. - producing food, so let's look a - little bit under the hood. yesterday i little bit under the hood. yesterday i spent _ little bit under the hood. yesterday i spent some — little bit under the hood. yesterday i spent some time _ little bit under the hood. yesterday i spent some time with _ little bit under the hood. yesterday i spent some time with mothers . little bit under the hood. yesterday. i spent some time with mothers here in the _ i spent some time with mothers here in the uk _ i spent some time with mothers here in the uk who— i spent some time with mothers here in the uk who are _ i spent some time with mothers here in the uk who are hunger— i spent some time with mothers here in the uk who are hunger striking, i in the uk who are hunger striking, demonstrating _ in the uk who are hunger striking, demonstrating in _ in the uk who are hunger striking, demonstrating in front _ in the uk who are hunger striking, demonstrating in front of- demonstrating in front of parliament, _ demonstrating in front of parliament, because - demonstrating in front of parliament, because onej demonstrating in front of. parliament, because one in demonstrating in front of- parliament, because one in four micrometres— parliament, because one in four micrometres in— parliament, because one in four micrometres in the _ parliament, because one in four micrometres in the uk, - parliament, because one in four micrometres in the uk, one - parliament, because one in four micrometres in the uk, one of. parliament, because one in four. micrometres in the uk, one of the richest _ micrometres in the uk, one of the richest countries _ micrometres in the uk, one of the richest countries in _ micrometres in the uk, one of the richest countries in the _ micrometres in the uk, one of the richest countries in the world, - micrometres in the uk, one of thel richest countries in the world, have to choose _ richest countries in the world, have to choose between _ richest countries in the world, have to choose between feeding - richest countries in the world, have - to choose between feeding themselves and feeding _ to choose between feeding themselves and feeding their— to choose between feeding themselves and feeding their children— to choose between feeding themselves and feeding their children and - to choose between feeding themselves and feeding their children and you - and feeding their children and you know— and feeding their children and you know what— and feeding their children and you know what choice _ and feeding their children and you know what choice they _ and feeding their children and you know what choice they are - and feeding their children and you | know what choice they are making. one in_ know what choice they are making. one in ten— know what choice they are making. one in ten children _ know what choice they are making. one in ten children globally - know what choice they are making. one in ten children globally do - know what choice they are making. one in ten children globally do not| one in ten children globally do not have enough— one in ten children globally do not have enough food. _ one in ten children globally do not have enough food. there - one in ten children globally do not have enough food. there are - one in ten children globally do not| have enough food. there are many reasons, _ have enough food. there are many reasons, but— have enough food. there are many reasons, but that _ have enough food. there are many reasons, but that eu _ have enough food. there are many reasons, but that eu global- have enough food. there are manyl reasons, but that eu global reasons behind _ reasons, but that eu global reasons behind this — reasons, but that eu global reasons behind this. first, _ reasons, but that eu global reasons behind this. first, the _ reasons, but that eu global reasons behind this. first, the absolutely. behind this. first, the absolutely outrageous— behind this. first, the absolutely outrageous prices— behind this. first, the absolutely outrageous prices of— behind this. first, the absolutely outrageous prices of fossil - behind this. first, the absolutely outrageous prices of fossil fuels i outrageous prices of fossil fuels due to _ outrageous prices of fossil fuels due to the — outrageous prices of fossil fuels due to the politicisation - outrageous prices of fossil fuels due to the politicisation of- outrageous prices of fossil fuels| due to the politicisation of fossil fuels, _ due to the politicisation of fossil fuels, and — due to the politicisation of fossil fuels, and secondly— due to the politicisation of fossil fuels, and secondly the - due to the politicisation of fossil. fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields— fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields that _ fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields that are _ fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields that are also _ fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields that are also due - fuels, and secondly the decreasing crop yields that are also due to - crop yields that are also due to extreme — crop yields that are also due to extreme weather— crop yields that are also due to extreme weather events - crop yields that are also due to . extreme weather events because crop yields that are also due to - extreme weather events because of the burning — extreme weather events because of the burning of— extreme weather events because of the burning of fossil— extreme weather events because of the burning of fossil fuels. - extreme weather events because of the burning of fossil fuels. so - extreme weather events because of the burning of fossil fuels. so two l the burning of fossil fuels. so two different— the burning of fossil fuels. so two different problems _ the burning of fossil fuels. so two different problems with _ the burning of fossil fuels. so two different problems with the - the burning of fossil fuels. so two different problems with the same| different problems with the same root cause — different problems with the same root cause - _ different problems with the same root cause — fossil— different problems with the same root cause — fossil fuels. - root cause — fossil fuels. therefore, _ root cause — fossil fuels. therefore, we _ root cause — fossil fuels. therefore, we have - root cause — fossil fuels. therefore, we have to i root cause — fossil fuels. - therefore, we have to understand that moving — therefore, we have to understand that moving away _ therefore, we have to understand that moving away from _ therefore, we have to understand that moving away from fossil- therefore, we have to understand| that moving away from fossil fuels over to _ that moving away from fossil fuels over to clean — that moving away from fossil fuels over to clean energy— that moving away from fossil fuels over to clean energy and - that moving away from fossil fuels i over to clean energy and technology actuallv _ over to clean energy and technology actually is _ over to clean energy and technology actually is a — over to clean energy and technology actually is a measure _ over to clean energy and technology actually is a measure to _ over to clean energy and technology actually is a measure to protect - over to clean energy and technology actually is a measure to protect the | actually is a measure to protect the most _ actually is a measure to protect the most vulnerable. _ actually is a measure to protect the most vulnerable.— most vulnerable. later we will ask ou to

most vulnerable. later we will ask you to give — most vulnerable. later we will ask you to give to _ most vulnerable. later we will ask you to give to some _ most vulnerable. later we will ask you to give to some solutions - most vulnerable. later we will ask you to give to some solutions to i you to give to some solutions to that programme, but thank you for your thoughts just now. this morning, we're trying to work out when most people can expect to better off after years of hard times for many. in a second, we'll talk to michael gove. but one of the hard things is that the crystal ball is a bit dodgy when it comes to predicting what might happen. the office for budget responsibilty, set up in 2010, every six months tells governments and the rest of us how much the economy's likely to shrink or grown by their sums, so how much money the government's got to play with. it's important, they independently check the government's sums for us all, but the reality is, their forecasts often turn out ot be wrong. in march, they said the rate prices would increase would peak at 8.7%. it peaked at 11.1% and is currently io.4%. the obr predicted the government would borrow 177 billion last year — actually, it was 99 billion, giving ministers hypothetically a lot more cash to play with.

and the obr forecast the country would be in recession by now. we're not — although onlyjust. if the numbers slide all over the place, how can we know when the country will start to feel a bit better off? i asked the boss of the obr, richard hughes, why they often get it wrong. so all forecast in the end turn out to be wrong, every forecast has an error, even weather forecasters do not get the exact rainfall right on a given week of the exact temperature on a given day. and in particular in the uk we are forecasting an incredibly volatile environment, like every country at the moment, because energy prices have risen fivefold and then fallen back by half, interest rates have troubled over the course of the last day, so i volatile environment in which to be forecasting. do day, so i volatile environment in which to be forecasting.- day, so i volatile environment in which to be forecasting. do you have

too much influence _ which to be forecasting. do you have too much influence over _ which to be forecasting. do you have too much influence over politicians l too much influence over politicians making decisions?— too much influence over politicians making decisions? politicians always base their decisions _ making decisions? politicians always base their decisions on _ making decisions? politicians always base their decisions on a _ making decisions? politicians always base their decisions on a forecast. base their decisions on a forecast from somebody, it used to be they were done inside the treasury. in the uk, we made a decision to outsource those to be obr 13 years ago, and i think ourforecasting record turns out to be better than the forecasting record of the treasury when it was doing the forecasts before 2010. we have lower forecasts before 2010. we have lower forecast errors and less biased forecast errors and less biased forecast in the treasury used to produce. forecast in the treasury used to roduce. ., .., forecast in the treasury used to roduce. ., _, ., i. forecast in the treasury used to roduce. ., ., ., produce. how confident are you that inflation is going _ produce. how confident are you that inflation is going to _ produce. how confident are you that inflation is going to fall— produce. how confident are you that inflation is going to fall to _ produce. how confident are you that inflation is going to fall to less - inflation is going to fall to less than 3%? inflation is going to fall to less than 396? . inflation is going to fall to less than 396? , ., ., ., ., than 396? there is a huge amount of uncertainty — than 396? there is a huge amount of uncertainty around _ than 396? there is a huge amount of uncertainty around the _ than 396? there is a huge amount of uncertainty around the outlook - than 396? there is a huge amount of uncertainty around the outlook for l uncertainty around the outlook for inflation, but the double digit inflation, but the double digit inflation we are seeing at the moment, around half is coming from energy prices and food prices, and when you look ahead, there are a number of factors which should bring those prices down over the remainder of the year. do those prices down over the remainder of the ear. ,, those prices down over the remainder of the ear. , ., ~ of the year. do you think we will ever see food _ of the year. do you think we will ever see food prices _ of the year. do you think we will ever see food prices coming - of the year. do you think we will. ever see food prices coming down? the level of some things is astronomical compared to a few months ago. astronomical compared to a few months ago-— astronomical compared to a few months auo. ., ., ., ., months ago. you are right that our fundamental _ months ago. you are right that our fundamental challenge _ months ago. you are right that our fundamental challenge as - months ago. you are right that our fundamental challenge as a - months ago. you are right that our| fundamental challenge as a country is that we are a net importer of

food and energy, and the prices of the things we consume have been rising at twice the pace of the prices of the things we produce, and that means as a country we are poorer, we are worse off because our wages cannot keep pace with the rises in things like energy and food which is set in global markets and have been rising faster than the things we produce. haifa have been rising faster than the things we produce.— have been rising faster than the things we produce. how would you describe the _ things we produce. how would you describe the overall _ things we produce. how would you describe the overall state - things we produce. how would you describe the overall state of - things we produce. how would you describe the overall state of the i describe the overall state of the economy? i describe the overall state of the econom ? ~ . describe the overall state of the economy?— describe the overall state of the econom ? ~ ., . ., , , economy? i think we are clearly seen the bi est economy? i think we are clearly seen the biggest squeeze _ economy? i think we are clearly seen the biggest squeeze on _ economy? i think we are clearly seen the biggest squeeze on living - the biggest squeeze on living standards that we have faced on record, but we do expect, as we get past this year and go into the next three or four years that the real incomes will start to recover. it is still the case that real spending power does not get back to the level it was before the pandemic, even by the time we get to the late 20205. that is so grim, it may be another five or even 5ix that is so grim, it may be another five or even six years until people start feeling better off again. that is based on _ start feeling better off again. that is based on our _ start feeling better off again. trust is based on our latest forecast, and it is partly because uk growth has been held back by supply con5traint5 been held back by supply constraints on some of the key drivers of

growth. we have lost around 500,000 people from the labour force, seen 5tagnant people from the labour force, seen stagna nt investment people from the labour force, seen 5tagnant investment since 2016, and also our productivity has slowed dramatically since the financial crisis and not really recovered. hagar crisis and not really recovered. how much stronger— crisis and not really recovered. how much stronger with _ crisis and not really recovered. how much stronger with the economy be if we had stayed in the eu? it much stronger with the economy be if we had stayed in the eu?— we had stayed in the eu? it reduces overall output _ we had stayed in the eu? it reduces overall output by _ we had stayed in the eu? it reduces overall output by about _ we had stayed in the eu? it reduces overall output by about 496 - we had stayed in the eu? it reduces. overall output by about 496 compared overall output by about 4% compared to having stayed in the eu. hour to having stayed in the eu. how would you _ to having stayed in the eu. how would you describe _ to having stayed in the eu. how would you describe that, the equivalent of another conflict or a smaller pandemic? i equivalent of another conflict or a smaller pandemic?— equivalent of another conflict or a smaller pandemic? i struggle to put it in any kind _ smaller pandemic? i struggle to put it in any kind of _ smaller pandemic? i struggle to put it in any kind of sensible _ smaller pandemic? i struggle to put it in any kind of sensible context. i it in any kind of sensible context. it is a shock to the uk economy of the order of magnitude of other 5hock5 we have seen from the pandemic, from the energy crisis, they have also had similar impacts on the level of output in five or ten years' time. i on the level of output in five or ten years' time.— on the level of output in five or ten years' time. i want to ask you about one — ten years' time. i want to ask you about one long-term _ ten years' time. i want to ask you about one long-term issue, - ten years' time. i want to ask you about one long-term issue, newl about one long—term issue, new forecast that if nothing is done to halt climate change, our debt—to—gdp ratio might ri5e halt climate change, our debt—to—gdp ratio might rise to 299% of gdp by

the end of the century. that seems hard to imagine, what would that feel like? so hard to imagine, what would that feel like? ., ., , feel like? so that would be the level of debt _ feel like? so that would be the level of debt that _ feel like? so that would be the level of debt that we _ feel like? so that would be the level of debt that we had - feel like? so that would be the i level of debt that we had basically at the end of the second world war, at the end of the second world war, a catacly5m of that stage and consequences for the economy and government finances of that sort of magnitude. a lot of our economic model would cease to work, a lot of our infrastructure would end up being underwater or unusable, we would have housing which would be close to flood plains which would be under water, so the damage to the academy comes from the fact that the infrastructure you have got ceases to be usable because it is too close to be usable because it is too close to the water level or global temperatures mean things like uk agriculture become non—viable. our agriculture become non-viable. our thanks to agriculture become non—viable. our thanks to richard hughes. let's dive straight in with michael gove, welcome to you. you have just had the official number crunches say it may be five or six years before people really start to feel better off again, do you think that is right? off again, do you think that is riuht? ~ ., �* off again, do you think that is riaht? j ~ ., off again, do you think that is riuht? ~ ., ., off again, do you think that is riaht? .,�* ~ ., ., ., off again, do you think that is riuht? ~ ., ., right? we don't know, and to be fed to richard hughes, _

right? we don't know, and to be fed to richard hughes, he _ right? we don't know, and to be fed to richard hughes, he was - right? we don't know, and to be fed to richard hughes, he was very - right? we don't know, and to be fed | to richard hughes, he was very clear that forecasting i5 to richard hughes, he was very clear that forecasting is a very difficult exercise. i'm not going to criticise forecasters, i wrote a book called michael portillo: of the future of the right to, but we are dealing with the aftershocks of two significant events, so both the war in ukraine, the first time we have had war on this scale in the continent of europe since the second world war, and the covid pandemic, the biggest global health pandemic since the end of the first world war. they have had a huge effect on our economy and on others. but every country has — our economy and on others. but every country has had _ our economy and on others. but every country has had that, _ our economy and on others. but every country has had that, and _ our economy and on others. but every country has had that, and this - country has had that, and this country has had that, and this country has had that, and this country has also had a shock to the economy from the disruption of brexit, which you backed, and the impact of that for people right now, not forecasting into the future, is a very serious squeeze on living standards. now, by any measure, notwithstanding the fact that you have had to cope with all sorts of

different things, by any measure, the conservatives have been in charge for 13 years, so is it a failure that our viewers are living through the biggest drop in living standards on record? ida. through the biggest drop in living standards on record?— through the biggest drop in living standards on record? no, and to be fair, both standards on record? no, and to be fair. both in — standards on record? no, and to be fair, both in your _ standards on record? no, and to be fair, both in your question - standards on record? no, and to be fair, both in your question and - standards on record? no, and to be fair, both in your question and what richard hughes said, the context was provided, and rishi sunak has ensured that we take action to help people with the cost of living. so the steps that were taken both in the steps that were taken both in the recent budget and even before that have helped people through this difficult time, so we have a windfall tax on oil and gas companies... windfall tax on oil and gas companies. . ._ windfall tax on oil and gas comanies... ~ . ., companies... which you fought auainst companies... which you fought against to _ companies... which you fought against to begin _ companies... which you fought against to begin with _ companies... which you fought against to begin with and - companies... which you fought against to begin with and then | companies... which you fought - against to begin with and then took the policy from the labour party. not quite, because the labour approach would have been different. he took the firm but fair step of making sure we would ensure that companies benefiting from the conflict would pay their fair share to help people with their energy bills, which are half what they otherwise would have been, but those are not the only steps we have taken. we have also taken a

difficult and unpalatable decision to increase taxation on other businesses in order to help people through these difficult times as well. richard hughes has said very plainly we are a poorer country. so do you accept that we are a poorer country than we were going to be? everyone i think accepts. — than we were going to be? everyone i think accepts, yes, _ than we were going to be? everyone i think accepts, yes, that _ than we were going to be? everyone i think accepts, yes, that if _ than we were going to be? everyone i think accepts, yes, that if we - think accepts, yes, that if we hadn't had the war, the impact that it's hard as we have heard on fossil fuel prices and other supplies as well including food, if we hadn't had the covid pandemic, then we would have been in a position where our growth rate was significantly higher. our growth rate was significantly hiaher. ~ . . . our growth rate was significantly hiuher.~ ., , ., ., our growth rate was significantly hiaher. ., , ., ., ., higher. what is that also a reflection _ higher. what is that also a reflection on _ higher. what is that also a reflection on the - higher. what is that also a - reflection on the government? you say the government has spent billions to try to help people, that is true, but they have spent billions in an energy that could be targeted to those who really need

it. more than 2 million people are using food banks. for the first time we have had those official figures. surely you must accept the government has some responsibility for that and there is an element in failure in allowing people in the country to live that way. we could do better on _ country to live that way. we could do better on one _ country to live that way. we could do better on one of _ country to live that way. we could do better on one of the _ country to live that way. we could do better on one of the things - country to live that way. we could do better on one of the things we | do better on one of the things we are seeking to do is to make sure we can grow the economy overall and help the most vulnerable. in the budget we took steps to help people who were not working to work, so we took steps to expand the labour market as the economists would call it, but basically to help families. we are doing more on childcare in order to make it easierfor both parents to work or either parent to work. we are taking steps to change the pension rules so more people who have been retiring early, particularly in the nhs... find have been retiring early, particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will _ particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be _ particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be able _ particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be able to _ particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be able to get - particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be able to get a - particularly in the nhs. .. and very wealthy will be able to get a tax i wealthy will be able to get a tax break from the government. it wealthy will be able to get a tax break from the government. it helps cut waitin:

break from the government. it helps cut waiting lists _ break from the government. it helps cut waiting lists which _ break from the government. it helps cut waiting lists which is _ break from the government. it helps cut waiting lists which is critical, - cut waiting lists which is critical, but more broadly we are also making sure we targets apart on the poorest to help them through this cost of living crisis. everything from additional support for the very poorest through things like the pupil premium in school. fine poorest through things like the pupil premium in school. one of the thins not pupil premium in school. one of the things not in — pupil premium in school. one of the things not in the _ pupil premium in school. one of the things not in the budget _ pupil premium in school. one of the things not in the budget was - pupil premium in school. one of the things not in the budget was more l things not in the budget was more support for people with housing costs. this is your brief and i want to ask specifically, we had one of the contributors last week say there was nothing in the budget on housing and we have heard this week from bbc viewers and also from the official statistics that rent is going up, very significantly. we have heard anecdotal evidence of rent sometimes going up by 20,25, even 30%. is it acceptable for landlords to be putting rent up above inflation? ida. putting rent up above inflation? no. and what are _ putting rent up above inflation? firm and what are you going to do putting rent up above inflation? tin and what are you going to do about landlords who are doing that? we are brinuain landlords who are doing that? we are bringing forward _ landlords who are doing that? we are bringing forward reforms _ landlords who are doing that? we are bringing forward reforms later - landlords who are doing that? we are bringing forward reforms later this i bringing forward reforms later this year to look at how the private

rented sector can be better regulated. not rent freezes or rent caps for protection for tenants. at the moment there is a situation where tenants can be evicted without any fault on their part, and a tiny minority of unscrupulous landlords are using the threat of eviction to jack up rent and victimise tenants so it's important that we recognise that private rented sector is absolutely vital to making sure people have the right home at the right place, at the right time. but we do need to make sure we protect tenants from unscrupulous landlords, even as we also give landlords the power to get rid of anti—social tenants as well. power to get rid of anti-social tenants as well.— power to get rid of anti-social tenants as well. and do you think 'ust tenants as well. and do you think just briefly _ tenants as well. and do you think just briefly there _ tenants as well. and do you think just briefly there are _ tenants as well. and do you think just briefly there are landlords i tenants as well. and do you think. just briefly there are landlords who are profiteering? who are using the context of what's going on to make profit at the expense of their tenants? in profit at the expense of their tenants? , . ~ tenants? in every market there will alwa s be tenants? in every market there will always be actors — tenants? in every market there will always be actors who _ tenants? in every market there will always be actors who attempt - tenants? in every market there will always be actors who attempt to i always be actors who attempt to exploit circumstances in their interest, not in the public interest, not in the public interest, yes.— interest, not in the public

interest, yes. tomorrow the government _ interest, yes. tomorrow the government will _ interest, yes. tomorrow the government will make i interest, yes. tomorrow the _ government will make announcements on anti—social behaviour, the prime minister will be at an event announcing things i believe. it might feel familiar to viewers to hear a prime minister saying i'm going to crack down on what they might say are yobs in city centres and it is familiar because boris johnson announced this sort of thing. david cameron announced this, even tony blair back in the day promised he would be marching yobs as he called it to cashpoints to take money out for their fines immediately. it's a rebranding exercise, isn't it?— exercise, isn't it? no, it's a comprehensive _ exercise, isn't it? no, it's a comprehensive plan - exercise, isn't it? no, it's a comprehensive plan that i exercise, isn't it? no, it's a| comprehensive plan that will exercise, isn't it? no, it's a- comprehensive plan that will see more officers in hotspot areas where anti—social behaviour blights the lives, and fasterjustice which will see people who have been responsible for damaging the area in which they live repair the fabric, the social and civic fabric of communities they have undermined, and it will also see investment in making sure there

are alternative activities for young people and we divert them away from anti—social behaviour before it occurs. anti-social behaviour before it occurs. �* , ., anti-social behaviour before it occurs. , ., ., , ., occurs. and will levy extra money to do this? yes, _ occurs. and will levy extra money to do this? yes, £160 _ occurs. and will levy extra money to do this? yes, £160 million. - do this? yes, £160 million. anti-social— do this? yes, £160 million. anti-social behaviour i do this? yes, £160 million. anti-social behaviour is i do this? yes, £160 million. i anti-social behaviour is serious anti—social behaviour is serious when it happens to people but in the latest crime survey the level of anti—social behaviour is actually going down while at the same time we hear all the time about record waits for prosecutions, terrible rates of prosecutions for serious crimes like violent crime. is it the best use of money and the right priority to have when serious crimes many people would feel right now are going unpunished? i would feel right now are going unpunished?— would feel right now are going unpunished? would feel right now are going ununished? ~ i. ., ., ., unpunished? i think you have to do both, ou unpunished? i think you have to do both. you have _ unpunished? i think you have to do both, you have to _ unpunished? i think you have to do both, you have to walk— unpunished? i think you have to do both, you have to walk and - unpunished? i think you have to do both, you have to walk and chew i unpunished? i think you have to do i both, you have to walk and chew gum. if you were to go to any of the communities and he serves in the west midlands and say anti—social behaviour, not much of a problem, is

it? you would get a pretty tart response. there are communities across this country where people feel their high street has been damaged because of the behaviour of yobs. they feel they can't walk at night, women and girls in particular in public spaces because of intimidatory behaviour. we do need to deal with that. it is the case that if you want investment in those areas, you need to make sure the pride people feel in their communities is reflected in an orderly public space and that means you need to deal with anti—social behaviour. you are right however that we also need to do more to ensure a faster prosecution of very serious crimes, and again the work that rishi sunak and dominic raab have undertaken has seen a significant increase in the number of people prosecuted, and a faster prosecution for rape and serious sexual offences.— sexual offences. a lot of distress _ sexual offences. a lot of distress to _ sexual offences. a lot of distress to victims. - sexual offences. a lot of distress to victims. it i sexual offences. a lot of distress to victims. it is i sexual offences. a lot of distress to victims. it is the | sexual offences. a lot of i distress to victims. it is the case that the period _

distress to victims. it is the case that the period of _ distress to victims. it is the case that the period of time - distress to victims. it is the case that the period of time between | that the period of time between someone reporting on offence and the eventual sentence being passed for rape and serious sexual offences was far too long. it was a failure of the criminaljustice system. but it is an issue dominic raab has addressed and it requires everyone from the police who are responsible obviously through to the crown prosecution service and the courts working better together. one of the problems we have had in our criminal justice system is that each of them have operated in silence. we haven't had a system... one of the things about the anti—social behaviour action plan is an example of systems thinking because it brings together police, local government and the justice system.— justice system. part of that we understand — justice system. part of that we understand is _ justice system. part of that we understand is that _ justice system. part of that we understand is that laughing i justice system. part of that we i understand is that laughing gas, which some people used to give them a high, is set to be banned. is that trail, and why are you doing that when the independent panel that looks at these things says it is disproportionate to ban it? taste looks at these things says it is disproportionate to ban it? we are doinu disproportionate to ban it? we are doin: it disproportionate to ban it? we are doing it because _ disproportionate to ban it? we are doing it because if _ disproportionate to ban it? we are

doing it because if you _ disproportionate to ban it? we are doing it because if you walk - disproportionate to ban it? we are l doing it because if you walk through any urban park, you will see these silver canisters which are the evidence of people regarding public spaces as arenas for drug—taking which is unacceptable. people should feel those spaces are being looked after in a way that means they are safe for children, they are not the records for children who want to engage in this anti—social behaviour. this drug can have an intoxicating and potentially damaging effect on young brains and young nervous systems so we need to stop it. the advisory committee offers advice but ministers ultimately decide, and rishi sunak and the home secretary have been clear, and i agree with them, that we need to draw a line. there tends to be this approach, like oh its only minor or let people let off steam. no. these are public spaces that should be safe and orderly. once you begin to retreat from these public spaces and say anything goes, then as we know what appear to be

small infringements turn into a greater degree of lawlessness. there is a theory, the so—called broken windows theory that describes this behaviour. you lose the attractiveness and security that everyone has a right to expect in public spaces. the everyone has a right to expect in public spaces-— everyone has a right to expect in public spaces. the prime minister will rive public spaces. the prime minister will give more _ public spaces. the prime minister will give more detail— public spaces. the prime minister will give more detail on _ public spaces. the prime minister will give more detail on that i will give more detail on that tomorrow but i want to ask about some big characters and big changes happening in the political landscape. nicola sturgeon's last morning in the office tomorrow, what do you think her biggest achievement is? ., �* ., ., is? erm... i don't want to say anything _ is? erm... i don't want to say anything bad _ is? erm... i don't want to say anything bad or... _ is? erm... i don't want to say anything bad or... erm... i is? erm. .. i don't want to say i anything bad or... erm... what's is? erm. .. i don't want to say - anything bad or... erm... what's the word, negative about nicola sturgeon because she's a dedicated public servant and she has devoted her life to public service. and as first minister of scotland, i worked with her during the pandemic. i know that she was committed to coming to the right conclusions in the interest of

the people of scotland. i fundamentally disagree with her on many things but i wish her well. some of the people you have worked with and you know well and matt hancock and kwasi kwarteng. they had been filmed undercover in a sting by a campaigning organisation and have been shown to have taken a meeting which would have been a fake job advising a company in south korea and they seem to have been asking for rather a lot of money. do you think matt hancock and kwasi kwarteng are worth £10,000 a day? the market as it were decides these things but the most important thing is not these negotiations, it is what every member of parliament does for their constituents. so you can have people who are both members of parliament but also do other work. maria caulfield as a nurse alongside being a health minister. the ruestion being a health minister. the question is _ being a health minister. the question is whether you think they are worth £10,000 a day, as a former cabinet minister and kwasi kwarteng who had to resign because everything

blow up on his watch. they had not broken any rules, but conceptually are they worth £10,000 a day in your view? i are they worth £10,000 a day in your view? ., �* ,, ., ., view? i don't pass 'udgment on other mps. view? i don't pass 'udgment on other mps- there _ view? i don't pass 'udgment on other mps. there — view? i don't passjudgment on other mps. there are rules _ view? i don't passjudgment on other mps. there are rules about _ view? i don't passjudgment on other mps. there are rules about what i view? i don't passjudgment on other| mps. there are rules about what they mp5. there are rules about what they should declare but the jewellery here is the constituency, so it will be the case, a general election if matt and kwasi choose to stand again but ultimately they will have to answer for the decisions they have taken. liz answer for the decisions they have taken. . . . answer for the decisions they have taken. , , , ., , answer for the decisions they have taken. ,, , .,, ., taken. liz truss still has a constituency. _ taken. liz truss still has a constituency. yes - taken. liz truss still has a constituency. yes or i taken. liz truss still has a constituency. yes or no, | taken. liz truss still has a i constituency. yes or no, should taken. liz truss still has a - constituency. yes or no, should she be able to send her friends to the house of lords? i be able to send her friends to the house of lords?— house of lords? i think that is a matter for— house of lords? i think that is a matter for the _ house of lords? i think that is a matter for the prime _ house of lords? i think that is a matter for the prime minister. l house of lords? i think that is a matter for the prime minister. i | matterfor the prime minister. i don't think i should speculate on what has in itself been speculation about honours. a5 what has in itself been speculation about honours. as i say, myjob is to help to ensure that we support the local government in its job of delivery. there are people who are smarter, wittier and more perceptive

who can offer commentary on... i’m who can offer commentary on... i'm not sure you — who can offer commentary on... i'm not sure you don't have a view on that but you are being very diplomatic. lastly i want to show you and the audience something that happened this week. let’s you and the audience something that happened this week.— happened this week. let's have a show of hands, _ happened this week. let's have a show of hands, shall _ happened this week. let's have a show of hands, shall we? - happened this week. let's have a show of hands, shall we? who i show of hands, shall we? who believes borisjohnson was telling the truth yesterday? wow. that was my colleague fiona bruce asking the question time audience if anyone believed borisjohnson when he was questioned about what happened in partygate. i want to check with our panel, did any of you believed boris johnson check with our panel, did any of you believed borisjohnson was telling the truth? i believed boris johnson was telling the truth? . believed boris johnson was telling the truth? , ., ., the truth? i will put it half and i will explain _ the truth? i will put it half and i will explain why. _ the truth? i will put it half and i will explain why. what - the truth? i will put it half and i will explain why. what about i the truth? i will put it half and i i will explain why. what about you, michael gove? _ will explain why. what about you, michael gove? did _ will explain why. what about you, michael gove? did you _ will explain why. what about you, michael gove? did you believe i will explain why. what about you, l michael gove? did you believe what borisjohnson said to mp5 this week? yes, i did. d0 boris johnson said to mps this week? yes, i did. ,, ~ boris johnson said to mps this week? yes, i did. i. ~ .,, yes, i did. do you think he has alwa s yes, i did. do you think he has always told _ yes, i did. do you think he has always told the _ yes, i did. do you think he has always told the truth? - yes, i did. do you think he has always told the truth? i - yes, i did. do you think he has always told the truth? i think | yes, i did. do you think he has i always told the truth? i think we have all at _ always told the truth? i think we have all at some _ always told the truth? i think we have all at some point _

always told the truth? i think we have all at some point told i always told the truth? i think we have all at some point told a i always told the truth? i think we have all at some point told a lie | always told the truth? i think we i have all at some point told a lie or and on truth, but the fundamental thing here, and the privileges committee will make up its mind, it's looked at all the evidence, but what was boris's argument? he was working incredibly hard every hour the lord sent in order to try to do the lord sent in order to try to do the right thing. he believed that saying thank you to people who were leaving in the cramped and confined circumstances of 10 downing street was part of thatjob. did he attend those events in the spirit of self—indulgence? no, he did so in order to show his gratitude to those who were working with him. it will be for the privileges committee to decide, for members of parliament to decide, for members of parliament to decide, but i worked with boris during that period and i am inclined to give him notjust the benefit of the doubt but to believe that when he places a hand on his heart and says he did not think he was breaking the rules, i do believe him. ~ . ., breaking the rules, i do believe him. a ., ., ,, breaking the rules, i do believe him. a ., ., ., him. michael gove, thank you for cominu in him. michael gove, thank you for coming in and — him. michael gove, thank you for coming in and taking _ him. michael gove, thank you for coming in and taking questions i him. michael gove, thank you for| coming in and taking questions on such a range of subjects. let's talk

about that interview and what else is making the news today with our panel. andy street, i must ask you, you have put your hand half up when we asked you three if you believed borisjohnson this week. can you explain why? critical word in the discussion was wilfully, _ critical word in the discussion was wilfully, and we all know that what was done — wilfully, and we all know that what was done was wrong, the question was: _ was done was wrong, the question was, was — was done was wrong, the question was, was it— was done was wrong, the question was, was it done in a planned for wade _ was, was it done in a planned for wade to — was, was it done in a planned for wade to deceive and i do not believe that it _ wade to deceive and i do not believe that it was _ wade to deceive and i do not believe that it was. �* , , ., �* i. that it was. andy, why don't you believe boris _ that it was. andy, why don't you believe boris johnson? - that it was. andy, why don't you believe boris johnson? well, i that it was. andy, why don't you | believe boris johnson? well, i... that it was. andy, why don't you i believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one--- — believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one--- it— believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one... it is _ believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one... it is a _ believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one... it is a question _ believe boris johnson? well, i... on this one... it is a question of - this one... it is a question of judgment, and i accept the wilful point. there is a time and a place in public servicejust point. there is a time and a place in public service just to come clean on site mistakes were made. let’s on site mistakes were made. let's aet onto on site mistakes were made. let's get onto the _ on site mistakes were made. let's get onto the other _ on site mistakes were made. let's get onto the other subjects that michael gove was talking about, when

you heard him trying to explain why the uk is in effect, to what extent has the situation been down to this government and to what an extent as an economist is a down to things beyond our control, how would you measure out? i beyond our control, how would you measure out?— measure out? i think the lion's share has _ measure out? i think the lion's share has been _ measure out? i think the lion's share has been two _ measure out? i think the lion's share has been two horrible i measure out? i think the lion's i share has been two horrible shocks, first covid in the cost of living crisis, that has done the lion's share of the damage to our prospects as a country, to the incomes of households. it has been a huge effect. incomes, as richard said on the video, 8% lower than pre—pandemic, and for poorer households even more than that. we are materially poor as a country and as people as a result of the two shocks. ~ ., ., ,., ., as people as a result of the two shocks. ~ ., ., ., ., shocks. what about the role of politicians _ shocks. what about the role of politicians in _ shocks. what about the role of politicians in all— shocks. what about the role of politicians in all of _ shocks. what about the role of politicians in all of this, - shocks. what about the role of i politicians in all of this, though? when it comes to the ballot box, people want to know, are the politicians being honest about whose

fault things were and how credible their solutions are. fin fault things were and how credible their solutions are.— their solutions are. on the fixing art, their solutions are. on the fixing part. there _ their solutions are. on the fixing part. there is — their solutions are. on the fixing part. there is a _ their solutions are. on the fixing part, there is a role _ their solutions are. on the fixing part, there is a role for - their solutions are. on the fixing part, there is a role for public i part, there is a role for public policy through budgets and other stuff to repair the damage done. as richard said, right now it is a pretty leisurely pass back to restoring pre—pandemic levels of income, five years plus. is there a case for pressing the accelerator, to speed data recovery? yes, i think there is, some of that was in the budget, more is needed. christiana, when ou budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look— budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look at _ budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look at the _ budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look at the uk, _ budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look at the uk, you - budget, more is needed. christiana, when you look at the uk, you have i when you look at the uk, you have talked powerfully about meeting mothers who cannot make ends meet, how do you assess how the government has been coping here? well. how do you assess how the government has been coping here?— has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that _ has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that the _ has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that the uk _ has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that the uk is _ has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that the uk is not - has been coping here? well, i'm afraid that the uk is not doing i has been coping here? well, i'm| afraid that the uk is not doing as well as— afraid that the uk is not doing as well as it — afraid that the uk is not doing as well as it could and should. richard was very— well as it could and should. richard was very clear about of runaway

climate — was very clear about of runaway climate change on this country, and that is— climate change on this country, and that is only— climate change on this country, and that is only part of the impacts we are going — that is only part of the impacts we are going to have across the world. and all— are going to have across the world. and all of— are going to have across the world. and all of this is actually going to be implicating all of us, so when we think— be implicating all of us, so when we think cost— be implicating all of us, so when we think cost of— be implicating all of us, so when we think cost of living, we have to think— think cost of living, we have to think that _ think cost of living, we have to think that cost of living equals fossil— think that cost of living equals fossil fuels, think that cost of living equals fossilfuels, let's think that cost of living equals fossil fuels, let's please make that connection, because otherwise we are looking _ connection, because otherwise we are looking at— connection, because otherwise we are looking at factors that, yes, impact but fundamentally the trend that we are looking at is a very dire trend. ina are looking at is a very dire trend. ina couple— are looking at is a very dire trend. in a couple of minutes i will ask you for solutions, but, andy, iwant to ask you about the banks, and are they safe. for a few weeks in a row, there has been a bit of a wobble about one bank, we talked about silicon valley bank that was bought by another bank, so that was made safe, if you like, but then we see what has happened with credit suisse, huge institution that has

gone wrong, deutsche bank, a powerful bank, are they really safe? well, we have had a huge shock in financial markets over the last 12 months, interest rates have risen from almost nothing to 5% globally, and that will crystallise losses significantly. sbp and credit suisse are some of the casualties of that. there could be more casualties. i suspect many more of them will lie beyond these shores, perhaps in the us, there are regional banks. will this be the sort of collapse of confidence and credit that we saw 15 years ago? i think not, our banks are stronger. polite other andy, i can see you nodding your head, you were running john lewis during the last big economic crash that we had, the financial last big economic crash that we had, the financia . . . last big economic crash that we had, the financia— the financial crisis, when you look around businesses _ the financial crisis, when you look

around businesses in _ the financial crisis, when you look around businesses in the - the financial crisis, when you look around businesses in the west i around businesses in the west midlands, you said there was exciting growth in some new areas, but what is the overall sentiment, what is the standard feeling with consumers having less to spend? it is very interesting, because businesses _ is very interesting, because businesses are _ is very interesting, because businesses are always i is very interesting, because i businesses are always thinking is very interesting, because - businesses are always thinking about the future, _ businesses are always thinking about the future, and — businesses are always thinking about the future, and data _ businesses are always thinking about the future, and data that _ businesses are always thinking about the future, and data that we - businesses are always thinking about the future, and data that we have i the future, and data that we have 'ust the future, and data that we have just had _ the future, and data that we have just had is— the future, and data that we have just had is that _ the future, and data that we have just had is that future _ the future, and data that we have just had is that future business i just had is that future business sentiment _ just had is that future business sentiment is _ just had is that future business sentiment is remarkably- just had is that future business i sentiment is remarkably positive, better— sentiment is remarkably positive, better in— sentiment is remarkably positive, better in the _ sentiment is remarkably positive, better in the west _ sentiment is remarkably positive, better in the west midlands - sentiment is remarkably positive, better in the west midlands thanl better in the west midlands than elsewhere — better in the west midlands than elsewhere in— better in the west midlands than elsewhere in the _ better in the west midlands than elsewhere in the country, - elsewhere in the country, interestingly, _ elsewhere in the country, interestingly, and - elsewhere in the country, interestingly, and coming elsewhere in the country, i interestingly, and coming to elsewhere in the country, - interestingly, and coming to the point _ interestingly, and coming to the point you — interestingly, and coming to the point you were _ interestingly, and coming to the point you were teasing - interestingly, and coming to the point you were teasing out - interestingly, and coming to the point you were teasing out withl point you were teasing out with andy, _ point you were teasing out with andy, i— point you were teasing out with andy, i don't— point you were teasing out with andy, i don't hear— point you were teasing out with andy, i don't hear from - point you were teasing out with i andy, i don't hear from businesses andy, idon't hear from businesses about— andy, i don't hear from businesses about the _ andy, i don't hear from businesses about the credit _ andy, i don't hear from businesses about the credit crunch, _ andy, i don't hear from businesses about the credit crunch, the - about the credit crunch, the shortage _ about the credit crunch, the shortage of— about the credit crunch, the shortage of borrowing - about the credit crunch, the| shortage of borrowing lines. actually, _ shortage of borrowing lines. actually, we _ shortage of borrowing lines. actually, we hear— shortage of borrowing lines. actually, we hear that - shortage of borrowing lines. actually, we hear that all. shortage of borrowing lines. actually, we hear that all of| shortage of borrowing lines. i actually, we hear that all of our clearing — actually, we hear that all of our clearing banks _ actually, we hear that all of our clearing banks are _ actually, we hear that all of our clearing banks are making - actually, we hear that all of ourj clearing banks are making more actually, we hear that all of our - clearing banks are making more money available _ clearing banks are making more money available for _ clearing banks are making more money available for smes _ clearing banks are making more money available for smes and _ clearing banks are making more money available for smes and are _ clearing banks are making more money available for smes and are trying - clearing banks are making more money available for smes and are trying to i available for smes and are trying to bring _ available for smes and are trying to bring in _ available for smes and are trying to bring in different— available for smes and are trying to bring in different forms _ available for smes and are trying to bring in different forms of - available for smes and are trying to bring in different forms of lending, | bring in different forms of lending, so that— bring in different forms of lending, so that doesn't _ bring in different forms of lending, so that doesn't appear _ bring in different forms of lending, so that doesn't appear to - bring in different forms of lending, so that doesn't appear to be - bring in different forms of lending, so that doesn't appear to be the i bring in different forms of lending, l so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge _ so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge at — so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge at the _ so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge at the moment. - so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge at the moment. there i so that doesn't appear to be the big challenge at the moment. there are some big challenges, _ challenge at the moment. there are some big challenges, i _ challenge at the moment. there are some big challenges, i have - challenge at the moment. there are some big challenges, i have to i challenge at the moment. there are some big challenges, i have to ask. some big challenges, i have to ask you about this is the former boss of john lewis, there has been speculation that the current boss might actually be going to go away from the model where staff members are partners and it runs in a

more... they would say ethically than other big retailers, what do you think about changing the model? it is my old life, it is many years since _ it is my old life, it is many years since i_ it is my old life, it is many years since i left, _ it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and _ it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and i— it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and i do— it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and i do not - it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and i do not tend i it is my old life, it is many years since i left, and i do not tend to| since i left, and i do not tend to comment— since i left, and i do not tend to comment publicly, _ since i left, and i do not tend to comment publicly, but - since i left, and i do not tend to comment publicly, but i - since i left, and i do not tend to comment publicly, but i will- since i left, and i do not tend to| comment publicly, but i will give you my— comment publicly, but i will give you my reaction. _ comment publicly, but i will give you my reaction, which - comment publicly, but i will give you my reaction, which is - comment publicly, but i will give you my reaction, which is that. comment publicly, but i will give you my reaction, which is that it| you my reaction, which is that it would _ you my reaction, which is that it would be — you my reaction, which is that it would be a _ you my reaction, which is that it would be a tragedy _ you my reaction, which is that it would be a tragedy if _ you my reaction, which is that it would be a tragedy if that - you my reaction, which is that it i would be a tragedy if that occurred, because _ would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i_ would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i think— would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i thinkjohn_ would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i thinkjohn lewis - would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i thinkjohn lewis goes i would be a tragedy if that occurred, because i thinkjohn lewis goes a i because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond — because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond the _ because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond the shop. _ because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond the shop. you - because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond the shop. you can i because i thinkjohn lewis goes a bit beyond the shop. you can buyj because i thinkjohn lewis goes a i bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same _ bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same television _ bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same television and _ bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same television and other— bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same television and other places i bit beyond the shop. you can buy the same television and other places but| same television and other places but it was— same television and other places but it was about — same television and other places but it was about a — same television and other places but it was about a way _ same television and other places but it was about a way of _ same television and other places but it was about a way of doing - it was about a way of doing business. _ it was about a way of doing business, actually- it was about a way of doing business, actually showing | it was about a way of doing i business, actually showing the market — business, actually showing the market there _ business, actually showing the market there was _ business, actually showing the market there was a _ business, actually showing the market there was a better- business, actually showing the market there was a better wayj market there was a better way almost, — market there was a better way almost, and _ market there was a better way almost, and if— market there was a better way almost, and if you _ market there was a better way almost, and if you believe i market there was a better wayl almost, and if you believe what market there was a better way. almost, and if you believe what it says in_ almost, and if you believe what it says in the — almost, and if you believe what it says in the press, _ almost, and if you believe what it says in the press, that _ almost, and if you believe what it says in the press, that is - almost, and if you believe what it says in the press, that is under. says in the press, that is under threat, — says in the press, that is under threat, so _ says in the press, that is under threat, so i _ says in the press, that is under threat, so i would _ says in the press, that is under threat, so i would urge - says in the press, that is under threat, so i would urge the i threat, so i would urge the leadership— threat, so i would urge the leadership of— threat, so i would urge the leadership ofjohn - threat, so i would urge the leadership ofjohn lewis i threat, so i would urge the leadership ofjohn lewis to threat, so i would urge the i leadership ofjohn lewis to think about— leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what— leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what is _ leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what is really— leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what is really at _ leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what is really at the - leadership ofjohn lewis to think about what is really at the heart| leadership ofjohn lewis to think. about what is really at the heart of it, about what is really at the heart of it. about _ about what is really at the heart of it. about what _ about what is really at the heart of it, about what makes _ about what is really at the heart of it, about what makes it— about what is really at the heart of it, about what makes it special, i about what is really at the heart of. it, about what makes it special, and hold onto _ it, about what makes it special, and hold onto that _ it, about what makes it special, and hold onto that. find _ it, about what makes it special, and hold onto that.— hold onto that. and if it is losing mone , hold onto that. and if it is losing money. how— hold onto that. and if it is losing money. how can _ hold onto that. and if it is losing money, how can you _ hold onto that. and if it is losing money, how can you carry i hold onto that. and if it is losing money, how can you carry on? l hold onto that. and if it is losing - money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case. — money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case, over _ money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case, over 150 _ money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case, over 150 is, _ money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case, over 150 is, if - money, how can you carry on? it was ever the case, over 150 is, if you - ever the case, over 150 is, if you cannot_ ever the case, over 150 is, if you cannot go— ever the case, over 150 is, if you cannot go to _ ever the case, over 150 is, if you cannot go to the _ ever the case, over 150 is, if you cannot go to the equity- everthe case, over150 is, if you| cannot go to the equity markets, ever the case, over 150 is, if you - cannot go to the equity markets, you have to _ cannot go to the equity markets, you have to either — cannot go to the equity markets, you have to either trade _ cannot go to the equity markets, you have to either trade your— cannot go to the equity markets, you have to either trade your way- have to either trade your way through— have to either trade your way through it. _ have to either trade your way through it, and _ have to either trade your way through it, and some - have to either trade your way through it, and some of- have to either trade your way through it, and some of the i have to either trade your way- through it, and some of the best retailers. — through it, and some of the best retailers, nxt, _ through it, and some of the best retailers, nxt, primark, - retailers, nxt, primark, setfridge's. _ retailers, nxt, primark, selfridge's, all- retailers, nxt, primark, . selfridge's, all wonderfully successful— selfridge's, all wonderfully

successful at— selfridge's, all wonderfully successful at the _ selfridge's, all wonderfully successful at the moment, selfridge's, all wonderfully- successful at the moment, are proving — successful at the moment, are proving that _ successful at the moment, are proving that physical— successful at the moment, are i proving that physical businesses successful at the moment, are - proving that physical businesses can do that, _ proving that physical businesses can do that, and — proving that physical businesses can do that, and that _ proving that physical businesses can do that, and that is _ proving that physical businesses can do that, and that is the _ proving that physical businesses can do that, and that is the challenge i do that, and that is the challenge forjohn_ do that, and that is the challenge forjohn lewis _ do that, and that is the challenge forjohn lewis and _ do that, and that is the challenge forjohn lewis and waitrose. - forjohn lewis and waitrose. christiana. _ forjohn lewis and waitrose. christiana, we _ forjohn lewis and waitrose. christiana, we promised - forjohn lewis and waitrose. i christiana, we promised people forjohn lewis and waitrose. - christiana, we promised people some solutions for what you have talked about, the risk notjust the economy but to everyone from climate change, and you are chair of the earthshot prize, the prince and princess of wales casting around the globe for good solutions. we have seen some beautiful pictures of coral reefs, and some clever people have come up with a way of growing the coral, saving the coral, the reduction of which is an environmental threat. first, let's understand why it is really— first, let's understand why it is really important. coral reefs are representative of the livelihood of 1 billion _ representative of the livelihood of 1 billion people around the world. they— 1 billion people around the world. they are — 1 billion people around the world. they are also the home of one quarter— they are also the home of one quarter of— they are also the home of one quarter of all marine life. so they are basically the canary in the oceans — are basically the canary in the oceans. we have lost 50% of coral reefs _ oceans. we have lost 50% of coral reefs already, and we stand to lose

up reefs already, and we stand to lose up to _ reefs already, and we stand to lose up to 90% — reefs already, and we stand to lose up to 90% over the next 30 years, so we have — up to 90% over the next 30 years, so we have do— up to 90% over the next 30 years, so we have do notjust save up to 90% over the next 30 years, so we have do not just save what we have _ we have do not just save what we have but— we have do not just save what we have but actually restore them so that we _ have but actually restore them so that we can grow. and we have, in the earthshot prize, a fantastic start— the earthshot prize, a fantastic start in— the earthshot prize, a fantastic start in the bahamas who, together with many— start in the bahamas who, together with many other very similar companies and ngos are developing technologies to grow corals outside of the _ technologies to grow corals outside of the oceans and then replant them inside _ of the oceans and then replant them inside the _ of the oceans and then replant them inside the oceans to restore that very important and basic ecosystem. we see _ very important and basic ecosystem. we see them meeting prince william and princess catherine there where they are trying to do it, but when it comes to the challenges, and you have mentioned it yourself, fossil fuels and our addiction to the combustion engine, what is the solution? ~ ., , , solution? well, obviously the solution? well, obviously the solution on _ solution? well, obviously the solution on the _ solution? well, obviously the solution on the energy - solution? well, obviously the solution on the energy site i solution? well, obviously the solution on the energy site is| solution? well, obviously the i solution on the energy site is to move _ solution on the energy site is to move over— solution on the energy site is to move over to renewable energy, and the good _ move over to renewable energy, and the good news there is that we are definitely— the good news there is that we are

definitely very much on the cusp of an exponential shift, both in renewable energy generation but, more _ renewable energy generation but, more importantly, in doing what that does, _ more importantly, in doing what that does. that— more importantly, in doing what that does, that renewable energy generation capacity that has grown very quickly is that it allows for many— very quickly is that it allows for many other sectors to also shift. polite _ many other sectors to also shift. polite and — many other sectors to also shift. polite and hydrogen? a lot of westminster politicians talk about that if _ westminster politicians talk about that if you have enough renewable energy. _ that if you have enough renewable energy, you can produce green hydrogen. — energy, you can produce green hydrogen, and that green hydrogen can be _ hydrogen, and that green hydrogen can be used to produce ammonia and methane, _ can be used to produce ammonia and methane, which means that we can actually— methane, which means that we can actually clean industries, steel, cement. — actually clean industries, steel, cement, shipping, aviation, all of the things— cement, shipping, aviation, all of the things that we cannot electrify. forgive _ the things that we cannot electrify. forgive me for being sceptical, i have heard a lot of politicians talking about the potential of hydrogen, and it doesn't ever seem to quite come to pass. but” hydrogen, and it doesn't ever seem to quite come to pass.— to quite come to pass. but i think we really are _ to quite come to pass. but i think we really are there _ to quite come to pass. but i think we really are there now. - to quite come to pass. but i think we really are there now. let's - we really are there now. let's remember— we really are there now. let's remember that change takes longer than you _ remember that change takes longer than you think, and then happens faster— than you think, and then happens faster than— than you think, and then happens faster than you thought possible, that is— faster than you thought possible, that is true of hydrogen. it is true

that is true of hydrogen. it is true that we are _ that is true of hydrogen. it is true that we are decarbonising - that is true of hydrogen. it is true that we are decarbonising our - that we are decarbonising our economy, _ that we are decarbonising our economy, if— that we are decarbonising our economy, it i_ that we are decarbonising our economy, if i look— that we are decarbonising our economy, if i look across - that we are decarbonising our economy, if i look across the | that we are decarbonising our- economy, if i look across the west midlands. — economy, if i look across the west midlands. we _ economy, if i look across the west midlands, we are _ economy, if i look across the west midlands, we are building - economy, if i look across the west midlands, we are building electricl midlands, we are building electric vehicles _ midlands, we are building electric vehicles like — midlands, we are building electric vehicles like never— midlands, we are building electric vehicles like never before, - midlands, we are building electric vehicles like never before, the . vehicles like never before, the government— vehicles like never before, the government has— vehicles like never before, the government has put— vehicles like never before, the government has put the - vehicles like never before, the. government has put the change vehicles like never before, the - government has put the change into the rules, _ government has put the change into the rules, we — government has put the change into the rules, we are _ government has put the change into the rules, we are beginning - government has put the change into the rules, we are beginning to - the rules, we are beginning to retrofit — the rules, we are beginning to retrofit her _ the rules, we are beginning to retrofit her was _ the rules, we are beginning to retrofit her was to _ the rules, we are beginning to retrofit her was to make - the rules, we are beginning to retrofit her was to make therej the rules, we are beginning to - retrofit her was to make there was more _ retrofit her was to make there was more efficient, _ retrofit her was to make there was more efficient, and _ retrofit her was to make there was more efficient, and we _ retrofit her was to make there was more efficient, and we are - retrofit her was to make there was| more efficient, and we are thinking about— more efficient, and we are thinking about decarbonising _ more efficient, and we are thinking about decarbonising manufacturing j about decarbonising manufacturing production. — about decarbonising manufacturing production. so— about decarbonising manufacturing production. so i_ about decarbonising manufacturing production, so i know— about decarbonising manufacturing production, so i know it— about decarbonising manufacturing production, so i know it is- about decarbonising manufacturing production, so i know it is not- about decarbonising manufacturing production, so i know it is not fasti production, so i know it is not fast enough. _ production, so i know it is not fast enough. but — production, so i know it is not fast enough. but i _ production, so i know it is not fast enough, but i believe _ production, so i know it is not fast enough, but i believe we - production, so i know it is not fast enough, but i believe we have - production, so i know it is not fast- enough, but i believe we have passed an inflection _ enough, but i believe we have passed an inflection point. _ enough, but i believe we have passed an inflection point.— an inflection point. andy, is the elected politician _ an inflection point. andy, is the elected politician on _ an inflection point. andy, is the elected politician on the - an inflection point. andy, is the elected politician on the panel, | elected politician on the panel, when you saw the sting on matt hancock and kwasi kwarteng and other conservative politicians, we can see them there, they haven't broken any rules, but a red faces surely. the clue is in — rules, but a red faces surely. the clue is in how _ rules, but a red faces surely. the clue is in how you _ rules, but a red faces surely. the clue is in how you describe it, it is a _ clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, — clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, is— clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, is that _ clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, is that the _ clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, is that the right - clue is in how you describe it, it is a sting, is that the right wayl clue is in how you describe it, it. is a sting, is that the right way of going _ is a sting, is that the right way of going about — is a sting, is that the right way of going about things? _ is a sting, is that the right way of going about things? i— is a sting, is that the right way of going about things? i have - is a sting, is that the right way of going about things? i have never| going about things? i have never taken _ going about things? i have never taken a _ going about things? i have never taken a second _ going about things? i have never taken a second job _ going about things? i have never taken a second job in _ going about things? i have never taken a second job in this - going about things? i have never taken a second job in this role, l going about things? i have never taken a second job in this role, i| taken a second job in this role, i actually— taken a second job in this role, i actually believe _ taken a second job in this role, i actually believe the _ taken a second job in this role, i actually believe the first - taken a second job in this role, i actually believe the first priority| actually believe the first priority comes _ actually believe the first priority comes to — actually believe the first priority comes to your— actually believe the first priority comes to your constituents, - actually believe the first priority comes to your constituents, it l actually believe the first priority| comes to your constituents, it is actually believe the first priority . comes to your constituents, it is a full-time — comes to your constituents, it is a full-time iob~ _ comes to your constituents, it is a full-time job-— comes to your constituents, it is a full-time 'ob. ,, ., ~ , ., ,, full-time 'ob. should mps never take a second full-time job. should mps never take a second job? _ full-time job. should mps never take a second job? you _ full-time job. should mps never take a second job? you have _ full-time job. should mps never take a second job? you have to _ full-time job. should mps never take a second job? you have to be - full-time job. should mps never take a second job? you have to be very i a second job? you have to be very selective. — a second job? you have to be very selective. but _ a second job? you have to be very selective, but the _ a second job? you have to be very selective, but the general - a second job? you have to be very selective, but the general view . a second job? you have to be very selective, but the general view of| selective, but the general view of looking _ selective, but the general view of looking for— selective, but the general view of looking for a _ selective, but the general view of looking for a selection _ selective, but the general view of looking for a selection of- looking for a selection of nonexecutive _ looking for a selection of nonexecutive is- looking for a selection of nonexecutive is i- looking for a selection of nonexecutive is i do- looking for a selection of nonexecutive is i do not| looking for a selection of- nonexecutive is i do not agree

looking for a selection of— nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three _ nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three of— nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three of you. _ nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three of you, thank— nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three of you, thank you - nonexecutive is i do not agree with. all three of you, thank you very- all three of you, thank you very much for now, what an interesting conversation. we have heard what the panel think and we want to know what you think too. it would be interesting to hear how you have had to cut back, are you already feeling better off or feeling the pinch? as you know, we will keep talking about what's going on in ukraine. that conflict has shown there are all sorts of ways of being brave. remember this? journalist marina ovsyannikova was at work at her tv station one day last year when she decided she couldn't take it any more. her sign reads, "stop the war, they are lying to you here." the decision to burst into the live studio made her a target, a danger to putin, and she decided to flee, evading capture, border guards, one of her escape cars stuck in the mud.

she's now safe in paris, from where she explained why she took the decision to protest that changed her life for good. translation: | had| with mixed emotions because before this protest, a lot of factors came together. well, for a long time, i realised with the russian tv became like a gigantic brainwashing machine. well, secondly, i have ukrainian roots. my father is from ukraine. at that point, it was like this huge emotional outburst. but i didn't really care what would happen to me later. how did you feel in those moments? well, first of all, i was, like, 90% sure that i won't be able to get through with security to a studio because of all these issues with security. and so i was thinking i won't be able to protest, but even if i were,

it probably be a ten—year prison sentence for anti—war protests. and you had worked, though, at that channel for nearly 20 years. why had you not spoken up before? i did shut my eyes to it. i realised that under the circumstances when russia's all independent media was destroyed, i won't be able to secure any other employment on tv. i prefered to bury my head in the sand like a lot of other russian people, but the war became a point of no return for me. it did, though, of course, mean that you had to leave the country. how did you escape? well, at that point i didn't have a schengen visa

and my children's passport expired, so i didn't plan to immigrate to begin with. well, a year later i was arrested. and in the end, my solicitor did find a way for me to leave russia. obviously, i can't give you details. well, the only thing i can say is that it was overnight from friday to saturday. we changed about seven cars. the last car was stuck in the mud. it was not going according to a plan. i was almost screaming, thinking and saying, "it's better for me to go back to russia, go to prison." but my daughter was saying, "get up, let's go. "we have to cross the border." and how do you feel now about your country? do you feel ashamed of what's happening in russia? yes, i'm really ashamed that this war started

because when i was working with international channel, a lot of my friends from abroad was texting me, asking, "what is going on? has putin gone mad?" and i thought, "yeah, really he went mad." and how widely held do you think your views are inside russia? and are peoplejust frightened to speak up? well, you know, this propaganda is made on a very high level, as it showed recently what effect it has. but also, i wanted to say that these people who are working in the main media channels, they don't really believe it. they have similar views to me. and also, you can say that people who are pro—putin, who are convinced in him, it's no more than 10% or 20%. president putin has now been

handed an arrest warrant by the international criminal court. do you think that might help bring this conflict to a conclusion, or actually might that even be a badge of honourfor him — another symbol that he could use to say that the west is unfairly trying to target him? i think this is the first signal that the russian elite should take notice of, and perhaps some kind of resistance will start within the russian elite, and they might plot against him. at least this is some kind of hope for me. shortly after you left, you said that your son had told you that your decision to protest like that had ruined the life of the family. does he still feel that, or do you feel now you have more understanding, or does he understand

the personal decision you took? my son still called me a traitor, that i betrayed ourfamily, i betrayed our country. i can say that for a lot — for millions of families, the same situation. war ruins a lot of families. and this is a real catastrophe because russians are being destroyed by putin, not only physically by him sending them to war, but also on a psychological level. because now in russia, it's an incredible situation. russia now deep in depression. there is an apathy everywhere, and millions of people just don't know what the future holds. just lastly, marina, do you feel it will ever be safe for you to go home? i can't go back now, but i do see my future with russia.

my son is there, my family is there, my mum, and they don't want to leave the country. so for me, i'm not indifferent to the future of this country and i will fight for the future, even being outside of russia. marina, we hope one day you'll be able to make that return. thank you so much for speaking to us today. thank you. now, it's no secret that the bbc�*s had a tricky few weeks, with accusations of bias flying around from all sides, not least because of the row over gary lineker�*s exploits on social media and the position of the bbc chairman and friend of borisjohnson, richard sharp. labour's lucy powell reckons it's time for a proper conversation about how the organisation is run, an independent review, and she's with us from the bbc in salford this morning. good morning to you. lucy, what's wrong that you want to put right? thank you, laura. as the labour party, we support the bbc as a

universal, publicly funded, public service broadcaster that cure rates our national conversation, that educate our children, that provides trusted local news and news around the world and brings us together with some of its fantastic content. but the bbc faces some serious headwinds coming up the track. its future is constantly under attack, constantly being questioned. how it is funded in the future constantly questioned and under attack. we have seen questions around the independence and impartiality of the bbc, and in the streaming and platform and social media age, i think we have to look deeply and carefully about what the future is of an organisation like the bbc in the digital and streaming age. and given that the charter renewal process will be well under way by the time of the next general election, i think now is the time

for us to really put together a very serious panel of people that i have put together to advise and make recommendations to the labour party about how the bbc cannotjust survive into the next few decades but can really thrive in the next few decades because that's what we want to see. so i'm really pleased that people like james purnell, june sarpong, steve morison and lou caldwell are going to be really spending some serious time thinking about these issues. you spending some serious time thinking about these issues.— spending some serious time thinking about these issues. you mention lots of issues like — about these issues. you mention lots of issues like independence - about these issues. you mention lots of issues like independence and - of issues like independence and funding, so let's look at those in particular. labour has raised concerns that with the conservative backed chair of the bbc, the organisation finds it hard to be properly independent. would you commit labour never appointing someone to a senior position in the bbc with links to the party? this someone to a senior position in the bbc with links to the party?- bbc with links to the party? this is somethinr bbc with links to the party? this is something that _ bbc with links to the party? this is something that obviously - bbc with links to the party? this is something that obviously the - ssc with links to the party? this is| something that obviously the panel will look at and make some recommendations about. but

will look at and make some recommendations about. but what is our view? recommendations about. but what is your view? i — recommendations about. but what is your view? i personally _ recommendations about. but what is your view? i personally don't - recommendations about. but what is your view? i personally don't think . your view? i personally don't think we should be _ your view? i personally don't think we should be precluding _ your view? i personally don't think we should be precluding people i your view? i personally don't think i we should be precluding people from taking up these positions who had previously been involved in politics, but i think what we absolutely have to look at is making sure the process behind that is fully transparent, completely robust and that the very best people for the job are appointed so that you can't have these questions that we have had over this particular appointment process that is now under investigation, under investigation because i asked for that investigation, but also other board members in the way in which they are appointed as well. but labour backers could be in senior position at the bbc, wouldn't you then be doing the same you have accused the conservatives of? h0. accused the conservatives of? no, and that's what _ accused the conservatives of? no, and that's what we _ accused the conservatives of? tip, and that's what we want, to restore some credibility and confidence in this process. of course there were people in the past that have shared

the labour party's views and values in terms of their appointment who quickly became impartial, and there were times in the past when they were times in the past when they were in conflict with the labour government so that's what we need to see but we need to make sure the whole process is fully robust and transparent, which it hasn't been in this case. we saw a circumstance where the prime minister made it very clear who he wanted to appoint right from the outset, putting off other people from applying. we then had a so—called independent panel which wasn't independent at all, which wasn't independent at all, which really had to assess whether the candidates passed the very minimum bar of a the candidates passed the very minimum bar ofa point the candidates passed the very minimum bar of a point ability and then the prime minister appointed who he wanted anyway. that then the prime minister appointed who he wanted anyway.— then the prime minister appointed who he wanted anyway. that is being investi . ated who he wanted anyway. that is being investigated at _ who he wanted anyway. that is being investigated at the _ who he wanted anyway. that is being investigated at the moment, - who he wanted anyway. that is being investigated at the moment, but - who he wanted anyway. that is being investigated at the moment, but i'm| investigated at the moment, but i'm interested, you clearly believe credibility needs to be restored to the system. wouldn't the easiest way be to just say ok, no political

links? if labour was in charge, you wouldn't appoint people with any political links? that wouldn't appoint people with any political links?— wouldn't appoint people with any political links? that is something we will look _ political links? that is something we will look at _ political links? that is something we will look at but _ political links? that is something we will look at but i _ political links? that is something we will look at but i think- political links? that is something we will look at but i think that i we will look at but i think that would narrow the field significantly because of course people later in their career, which is often, you know, we want experienced people, people who have worked across a range of positions in broadcasting and industry civil society coming forward for these roles, people have expressed political opinions and have got political views and so on in their past. so i don't want to narrow the field so much that you are only then choosing from people who have never expressed an opinion before in their entire life. but i do want to restore some credibility, independence and transparency to that process. you independence and transparency to that process-— that process. you talked about fundinr , that process. you talked about funding, that's _ that process. you talked about funding, that's one _ that process. you talked about funding, that's one of- that process. you talked about funding, that's one of the - that process. you talked about| funding, that's one of the other that process. you talked about - funding, that's one of the other big challenges and there is often political argument about the licence fee. is it possible that labour would keep the licence fee passed

2027? it would keep the licence fee passed 2027? , , would keep the licence fee passed 2027? , _.,,,, . 2027? it is very possible. we believe very _ 2027? it is very possible. we believe very strongly - 2027? it is very possible. we believe very strongly in - 2027? it is very possible. we believe very strongly in a - believe very strongly in a universally publicly funded bbc, so thatis universally publicly funded bbc, so that is where everybody contributes and everybody has access to bbc. because it's that model that pays for all the things that otherwise wouldn't exist. because there is not a competitive market for it. whether thatis a competitive market for it. whether that is bbc bitesize or all the education provided during covid, whether it is world leading news journalism covering issues like ukraine or issues around the world and local news that many other players have left the space from entirely, or whether that is ensuring we have brilliant independent british film and brilliant british content for british audiences. these things might not happen without that kind of funding model. but i do think it's important that we closely scrutinise and really reset and rebuild a consensus around some of

theseissues rebuild a consensus around some of these issues because this also is one of the reasons why i think the bbc has not felt that it could be as independent and as punchy as it might want to be, because of constant questions about defunding it and getting rid of its funding altogether. it it and getting rid of its funding altogether-— it and getting rid of its funding altorether. , , altogether. it will be interesting to hear what _ altogether. it will be interesting to hear what your _ altogether. it will be interesting to hear what your review - altogether. it will be interesting to hear what your review comes | altogether. it will be interesting i to hear what your review comes up with in the next few months. i want to ask about another issue, so you are in charge of culture and media for the labour party but also sport. this week we saw the world athletics federation make a decision, a controversial decision to many people, called for by many others, they made the decision to ban trans women from competing in women's events. should other sports follow that example?— events. should other sports follow that examle? , , ., , that example? other sports have been followin: that example? other sports have been following that — that example? other sports have been following that example. _ that example? other sports have been following that example. so _ that example? other sports have been following that example. so they - following that example. so they should? it is _ following that example. so they should? it is for _ following that example. so they should? it is for sporting - following that example. so they i should? it is for sporting governing bodies to look _ should? it is for sporting governing bodies to look at _ should? it is for sporting governing bodies to look at these _ should? it is for sporting governing bodies to look at these issues - should? it is for sporting governing bodies to look at these issues and l bodies to look at these issues and it is particular to different sports. for me the principles are

absolutely inclusion where inclusion can be achieved fairly and with fair competition, and not where that puts safety issues at risk. so certainly some sports like athletics, rugby, cycling and so on, you can't achieve inclusion with fair competition and meeting those safety barriers, but there are other sports like equestrian, snooker or darts where you can achieve inclusion without putting those other things at risk. so that's why sports governing bodies should look at these issues themselves closely, and they are difficult issues to resolve but i support the action world athletics has taken this week. luci; support the action world athletics has taken this week. lucy powell, rreat has taken this week. lucy powell, treat to has taken this week. lucy powell, great to have _ has taken this week. lucy powell, great to have you _ has taken this week. lucy powell, great to have you on _ has taken this week. lucy powell, great to have you on the - has taken this week. lucy powell, - great to have you on the programme, thank you forjoining us from salford. it's nearly ten, and we started this morning asking a simple question that might have a complicated answer. when is everyone going to start to feel better off? here's michael gove. we are dealing with the aftershocks of two, you know, significant

events, so both the war in ukraine, the first time we've had war on this scale on the continent of europe since the second world war, and the covid pandemic, the biggest global health pandemic since the end of the first world war. we have talked a lot already to our panel about that issue so i want to close talking about another logical moment that is about to happen, the departure of nicola sturgeon who has been such a big figure in our politics for a long time. she will be replaced tomorrow. andy, you interview nicola sturgeon at an eventin interview nicola sturgeon at an event in london this week, do you feel you got under the skin of why she's leaving? mat feel you got under the skin of why she's leaving?— she's leaving? not entirely. time will tell on _ she's leaving? not entirely. time will tell on that. _ she's leaving? not entirely. time will tell on that. what _ she's leaving? not entirely. time will tell on that. what was - she's leaving? not entirely. time will tell on that. what was clear l will tell on that. what was clear though is that on some of the signature issues of the day, like climate, inequality, democracy, she has more to say on those things, and

watch this space on that, i would say. watch this space on that, i would sa . . �* , , watch this space on that, i would sa . . h , , say. that's interesting. maybe potentially _ say. that's interesting. maybe potentially a _ say. that's interesting. maybe potentially a job _ say. that's interesting. maybe potentially a job at _ say. that's interesting. maybe potentially a job at the - say. that's interesting. maybe potentially a job at the united | potentially a job at the united nations. does she have that presence on the world stage? she nations. does she have that presence on the world stage?— on the world stage? she does. i think her trajectory _ on the world stage? she does. i think her trajectory and - on the world stage? she does. i think her trajectory and her- think her trajectory and her experience would make her a very strong _ experience would make her a very strong candidate for many international positions, notjust the un — international positions, notjust the un. we also interviewed her on the un. we also interviewed her on the podcast outrage and optimism. she already left a little piece there — she already left a little piece there that she might be looking at bigger— there that she might be looking at bigger things. there that she might be looking at bigger things-— there that she might be looking at bigger things. there that she might be looking at binrerthins. ,, ~ , bigger things. goodness me. andy, i know ou bigger things. goodness me. andy, i know you are — bigger things. goodness me. andy, i know you are a _ bigger things. goodness me. andy, i know you are a conservative - know you are a conservative politician but you are also one of those big figures outside westminster. do you think she will leave a hole, one of those powerful figures outside westminster on our national stage? these two have been very flattering but a lot of people in your party like michael gove i think had a different view. michael said we disagree _ think had a different view. michael said we disagree politically - think had a different view. michael said we disagree politically but - think had a different view. michael said we disagree politically but he | said we disagree politically but he respects, —

said we disagree politically but he respects, like— said we disagree politically but he respects, like in— said we disagree politically but he respects, like in view, _ said we disagree politically but he respects, like in view, what- said we disagree politically but he respects, like in view, what she . said we disagree politically but he l respects, like in view, what she has done _ respects, like in view, what she has done to— respects, like in view, what she has done to build — respects, like in view, what she has done to build the _ respects, like in view, what she has done to build the institution- respects, like in view, what she has done to build the institution of- respects, like in view, what she has done to build the institution of the i done to build the institution of the scottish— done to build the institution of the scottish government _ done to build the institution of the scottish government deserves - done to build the institution of the - scottish government deserves respect and it's— scottish government deserves respect and it's got— scottish government deserves respect and it's got to — scottish government deserves respect and it's got to be _ scottish government deserves respect and it's got to be good _ scottish government deserves respect and it's got to be good for— scottish government deserves respect and it's got to be good for britain - and it's got to be good for britain to have _ and it's got to be good for britain to have lots — and it's got to be good for britain to have lots of _ and it's got to be good for britain to have lots of people _ and it's got to be good for britain to have lots of people outside - to have lots of people outside london — to have lots of people outside london building _ to have lots of people outside london building their- to have lots of people outside i london building their institutions because — london building their institutions because britain— london building their institutions because britain will— london building their institutions because britain will be _ london building their institutions because britain will be stronger. london building their institutions . because britain will be stronger for that _ because britain will be stronger for that. ., , , that. one of them will be with us next week. _ that. one of them will be with us next week, tracy _ that. one of them will be with us next week, tracy bray _ that. one of them will be with us next week, tracy bray bean, - that. one of them will be with us next week, tracy bray bean, the| next week, tracy bray bean, the labour mayor for west yorkshire. but all three of you, andy street, christiana figueres and andy haldane, and just like that it's goodbye from me for another week. we've been very un—british this morning and talked about cash. politicians hope inflation will drop a lot by the end of this year, but after shocks and pretty awful economic performance, the contest for your vote is likely to centre around who can offer hope for your wallet and a convincing strategy for the country to pay its way. but the man who earns his wages by making the forecast told me this morning it could be five or six years before people start feeling more prosperous.

gulp! you'll hear more from the prime minister on anti—social behaviour tomorrow, and don't forget, plenty of coverage on bbc news of the new first minister of scotland — whoever that is! whoever that is! great to have your comapny, great to have your comapny, as ever, and you can head as ever, and you can head to iplayerfor more, to iplayerfor more, or i'll see you here next week. or i'll see you here next week. goodbye. goodbye.